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[Something Wicked]

I'm not picky. I'll take any change in the right (left) direction. Even a reversal of the Bush rates would be a big step in the right direction.

Do protestors need to have actuarial tables and spreadsheets? Because if so, those tea party dimwits are totally fucked.

So, the OWS crowd would be okay with these federal marginal income tax rates?:

Instead of?:

If so, then they should specify so like adults, instead of constantly spouting moronic, juvenile wishlists.

Also, there are already tax increases set to incur from the current edition of Obamacare for a few of those income brackets.

 

[Jak140]

Lol.

Tea Party rally: LOOK AT THIS ONE GUY WHO HAD A RACIST SIGN, WHAT A BUNCH OF RACISTS!!!

OWS:

Please provide proof that I have made any such statement disregarding the tea party movement on the basis of a few signs. I disagree with their views and think they are misguided, but that is a separate issue.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

But OWS is clear about what it is and who are its targets:.

No, it isn't. Just vague ramblings from people who have and will accomplish absolutely nohthing. I still can't get over the hilarity that they think in anyway they are like the people in Tunisia or Libya.

 

[akira28]

What movement? I haven't seen anything that could be called a movement, unless we've really lowered the bar to include squatting and rambling about issues they have no idea about, if that's the case, then yes you have a movement.

I guess we could keep arguing the points with Manos and Enron and whomever else comes along.

The payoff (???) is bound to be worth it.

 

[FlyinJ]

Libertarians are welcome precisely to the extent they support the OWS demand to free government from the iron grip corporate business interests have over it.

I just don't understand this at all. The entire reason we're in this position in the first place is because of massive deregulation of the banking industry. And we got there because of corporate business interests and lobbyists hijacking the entire political machine, forcing deregulation of the markets and banking.

The Libertarians want to remove all regulations from everything. They stand for the exact opposite of what OWS hopes to achieve.

 

[Jenga]

I just don't understand this at all. The entire reason we're in this position in the first place is because of massive deregulation of the banking industry. And we got there because of corporate business interests and lobbyists hijacking the entire political machine, forcing deregulation of the markets and banking.

The Libertarians want to remove all regulations from everything. They stand for the exact opposite of what OWS' main complaint is.

but but that's all lies

not all libertarians are anti federal government

like that one dude joe what's his name

 

[kame-sennin]

No, it isn't. Just vague ramblings from people who have and will accomplish absolutely nohthing. I still can't get over the hilarity that they think in anyway they are like the people in Tunisia or Libya.

This reads like you're having a meltdown because of how far the movement has already come.

 

[Clevinger]

I just don't understand this at all. The entire reason we're in this position in the first place is because of massive deregulation of the banking industry. And we got there because of corporate business interests and lobbyists hijacking the entire political machine, forcing deregulation of the markets and banking.

The Libertarians want to remove all regulations from everything. They stand for the exact opposite of what OWS' main complaint is.

There are libertarians who still want regulation, just like there are liberals and conservatives who aren't lockstep with their ideology on every issue.

But yeah, the dudes holding up Ron Paul signs probably aren't those people.

 

[empty vessel]

Chris Hedges on OWS w/ OccupyTVNY -- 10/15/11

I just don't understand this at all. The entire reason we're in this position in the first place is because of massive deregulation of the banking industry. And we got there because of corporate business interests and lobbyists hijacking the entire political machine, forcing deregulation of the markets and banking.

The Libertarians want to remove all regulations from everything. They stand for the exact opposite of what OWS hopes to achieve.

That's why most will and do oppose OWS. One thing you have to understand about Libertarians is that many are products of disaffection with the society but within the context of a society that directs them towards Libertarianism. Ron Paul is the only politician they are exposed to who appears principled. Austin, Texas, for example, is rampant with Libertarians who think they are being liberal and rebellious, because by and large they don't have any understanding of the economic side of Libertarianism and Ron Paul is the one person they see who appears to take stands. All this to say, I agree with you, but self-styled Libertarians who want to put corporations and Wall Street back under the government's thumb are welcome precisely because they really aren't very Libertarianismy.

 

[Jenga]

There are libertarians who still want regulation

yeah they're called democrats

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

This reads like you're having a meltdown because of how far the movement has already come.

No, it's more a comment of how much a massive waste this whole thing has been. My concern is when they finally realize it and those that believe in using violence as a means of change act upon it.

 

[akira28]

I just don't understand this at all. The entire reason we're in this position in the first place is because of massive deregulation of the banking industry. And we got there because of corporate business interests and lobbyists hijacking the entire political machine, forcing deregulation of the markets and banking.

The Libertarians want to remove all regulations from everything. They stand for the exact opposite of what OWS' main complaint is.

Well if they can't leave that at the door, I suspect they will find themselves at odds. Some people fantasize that this will be some totally neutral territory where people from opposite political philosophies can stand together for a common cause, and to an extent it is. But if they're going to stress the weak spots, then there will be a break. They won't be able to sidle up and say deregulation rah-rah-rah, because they will find themselves deposited at the nearest recycling center, along with that tired ole bullshit.

This is no longer political, so political rhetoric about regulations won't apply here. They want to supersede politics, not aspire to it. Changing policy isn't enough anymore. Backing a candidate isn't enough anymore. You're welcome to stand with your signs, just don't waste your time.

 

[FlyinJ]

There are libertarians who still want regulation, just like there are liberals and conservatives who aren't lockstep with their ideology on every issue.

But yeah, the dudes holding up Ron Paul signs probably aren't those people.

What Libertarians are these? What regulation do they still want? Infrastructure regulation? I'm hard pressed to think of any significant Libertarian who is for government regulation of financial institutions.

And if they "leave that at the door", what agenda are they hoping to push forward through OWS?

 

[The Librarian]

No, it's more a comment of how much a massive waste this whole thing has been. My concern is when they finally realize it and those that believe in using violence as a means of change act upon it.

Christ.

So help changing the national conversation from spending cuts and deficit reduction to jobs and income inequality is a massive waste?

 

[J.ceaz]

No, it's more a comment of how much a massive waste this whole thing has been. My concern is when they finally realize it and those that believe in using violence as a means of change act upon it.

Am I wrong in reading this as simply telling people they should give up? Cause that's what it sounds like.

 

[x Power Pad Death Stomp x]

Please provide proof that I have made any such statement disregarding the tea party movement on the basis of a few signs. I disagree with their views and think they are misguided, but that is a separate issue.

It's not you specifically. It's clear from people over and over in the thread and the previous Manos VS OWS thread, that people want kid gloves used when judging the protest they agree with that they don't even use themselves when they don't agree with it.

The general consensus on Gaf is that the Tea Party is racist, stupid, rednecks, ect ect ect. and the evidence is exactly what is brushed off as "oh that's just one guy" when applied to OWS.

In closing, here's a video of a OWS guy getting owned, and it's funny.

http://youtu.be/wrPGoPFRUdc

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Am I wrong in reading this as simply telling people they should give up? Cause that's what it sounds like.

It would stop wasting a lot of money, what do they expect the fall of the government or something. They have no idea what could be an endgame because where they draw inspiration in the Middle East North Africa are so fundamentally from what occurred there.

Christ.

So help changing the national conversation from spending cuts and deficit reduction to jobs and income inequality is a massive waste?

Except it hasn't.

 

[Clevinger]

What Libertarians are these? What regulation do they still want? Infrastructure regulation? I'm hard pressed to think of any significant Libertarian who is for government regulation of financial institutions.

And if they "leave that at the door", what agenda are they hoping to push forward through OWS?

I don't mean politicians, but voters. There are lots of people who don't fall in lockstep with everything to do with their ideology.

I agree, though, that the guys holding Ron Paul signs are probably the antithesis of what the Occupy movement's about, and are most likely just trying to build excitement for Paul in any way possible.

It would stop wasting a lot of money, what do they expect the fall of the government or something.

At the very least, it's shifted the debate in this country slightly to the left - something which was desperately needed.

 

[The Librarian]

Except it hasn't.

Then you're not paying attention. After all, Eric Cantor (!) of all people is set to give a speech about inequality on Friday, and the Republicans produced a "jobs" plan last week. Then you have Mitch McConnell getting frustrated with Obama over his campaign for the AJA. Reid is hoping to have a vote on aid to states to hire teachers.

And the conversation hasn't? lol

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I don't mean politicians, but voters. There are lots of people who don't fall in lockstep with everything to do with their ideology.

I agree, though, that the guys holding Ron Paul signs are probably the antithesis of what the Occupy movement's about, and are most likely just trying to build excitement for Paul in any way possible.



At the very least, it's shifted the debate in this country slightly to the left - something which was desperately needed.

The Maoist may make the Ron Paul people look relatively sane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE2M7g_IWSE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[richiek]

Christ.

So help changing the national conversation from spending cuts and deficit reduction to jobs and income inequality is a massive waste?

The "LOL dirty hippies" argument is no longer working for Manos, so now he's latching onto the "OMG government waste rationale.

 

[goomba]

Libertarians and Liberals are both against corporatism and fascism ..

 

[Piecake]

The "LOL dirty hippies" argument is no longer working for Manos, so now he's latching onto the "OMG government waste rationale.

I'm sure back in the 60s he'd be arguing against the civil rights movement as well. Look at all that government waste! They should just give up since they have no power to change anything! the market will take care of things eventually!

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Then you're not paying attention. After all, Eric Cantor (!) of all people is set to give a speech about inequality on Friday, and the Republicans produced a "jobs" plan last week. Then you have Mitch McConnell getting frustrated with Obama over his campaign for the AJA. Reid is hoping to have a vote on aid to states to hire teachers.

And the conversation hasn't? lol

All of those things were going to occur anyway. The Republican Jobs bill was an expected responses to counter Obama. Same with McConnell's response and Reids vote scheduling.

At best you can say Cantor giving a speech on inequality, one that will most likely talk about inequality caused by jobs lost due to over regulation or something other than anything the squatters have talked about.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I'm sure back in the 60s he'd be arguing against the civil rights movement as well. Look at all that government waste! They should just give up since they have no power to change anything! the market will take care of things eventually!

Yeah....sure. Dude Abides beat you to that shitty argument about two weeks ago, so come on and try harder than that.

The "LOL dirty hippies" argument is no longer working for Manos, so now he's latching onto the "OMG government waste rationale.

At that point they weren't wasting the amounts of resources they are now.

 

[nitewulf]

The "LOL dirty hippies" argument is no longer working for Manos, so now he's latching onto the "OMG government waste rationale.

but waste of who's time is he referring to? the amount of time he wasted in this thread is mind boggling. and that's probably when he is "supposed" to be at work. the fact that this country is screwed isn't much of a surprise...

 

[Piecake]

Yeah....sure. Dude Abides beat you to that shitty argument about two weeks ago, so come on and try harder than that.

Shitty argument? So basically youre saying that you have to agree with the protests goal for it to not be a waste? Should we pass a Manos approved protest law just for you?

Oh wait, I forgot, these protestors dont know what they want! (bullshit)

 

[dave is ok]

I like to think that every day the Occupation continues, Manos loses a tiny bit of his sanity

 

[Jak140]

It's not you specifically. It's clear from people over and over in the thread and the previous Manos VS OWS thread, that people want kid gloves used when judging the protest they agree with that they don't even use themselves when they don't agree with it.

The general consensus on Gaf is that the Tea Party is racist, stupid, rednecks, ect ect ect. and the evidence is exactly what is brushed off as "oh that's just one guy" when applied to OWS.

As a rule, I try to be able to articulate and defend why I disagree with certain views. I don't think generalizing as the primary method of dismissing a viewpoint gets us anywhere and that is true for all groups, including protesters and posters.

 

[magicstop]

Ok, big update done for the OP, though it was mostly catching it up with the content of the thread as it has progressed. If you feel like I've missed anything or miscategorized anything, please give me a shout.
My next goal is to gather a bit more news and media from the last week or so that this thread may have missed. Then I'm going to be working on completing the new "Education Corner." empty vessel and a few others have been hard at work providing stats, research, and other good facts, and I'd like a place to showcase them!
If you've got anything you'd like done, PM me. Thanks!

 

[WARCOCK]

Can't we just have a gentlemen's agreement to completely ignore both Manos and Enron in this thread?

 

[Clevinger]

The Maoist may make the Ron Paul people look relatively sane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE2M7g_IWSE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Thankfully, they're an even bigger minority than Paulites. I've never even heard of a Maoist.

smh @ that video

 

[Evlar]

Can't we just have a gentlemen's agreement to completely ignore both Manos and Enron in this thread?

These things never hold up.

 

[nitewulf]

I like to think that every day the Occupation continues, Manos loses a tiny bit of his sanity

but you are assuming he is sane...he seems pretty obsessive to me...

 

[The Librarian]

All of those things were going to occur anyway. The Republican Jobs bill was an expected responses to counter Obama. Same with McConnell's response and Reids vote scheduling.

At best you can say Cantor giving a speech on inequality, one that will most likely talk about inequality caused by jobs lost due to over regulation or something other than anything the squatters have talked about.

I like how you made my point in your attempt to refute it.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

It's not you specifically. It's clear from people over and over in the thread and the previous Manos VS OWS thread, that people want kid gloves used when judging the protest they agree with that they don't even use themselves when they don't agree with it.

The general consensus on Gaf is that the Tea Party is racist, stupid, rednecks, ect ect ect. and the evidence is exactly what is brushed off as "oh that's just one guy" when applied to OWS.

So basically a lot of this trolling is just juvenile hit-backs from butthurt Tea Party fans? Until OWS gets astroturfed (which is still quite possible, I'll admit) to the degree that the Tea Party did then I think it's fair to judge them on different metrics.

 

[akira28]

I'm sure back in the 60s he'd be arguing against the civil rights movement as well. Look at all that government waste! They should just give up since they have no power to change anything! the market will take care of things eventually!

He'd probably appeal to them unnecessarily putting themselves in danger. Saying that their time would come and they just need to wait for it.

 

[magicstop]

*inflammatory garbage*

...

In the interest of letting people discuss the issues at hand, whatever they may feel they are or however they feel about them, I withdraw from posting in this thread and any future thread on the subject.

Can't we just have a gentlemen's agreement to completely ignore both Manos and Enron in this thread?

I'm in . . .

empty vessel, thanks for the Hedges video. Adding to the OP now.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Thankfully, they're an even bigger minority than Paulites. I've never even heard of a Maoist.

smh @ that video

Sadly they've killed lots of people in various insurgency movements in the past and continue to do so in India today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_India_(Maoist)

 

[Clevinger]

Sadly they've killed lots of people in various insurgency movements in the past and continue to do so in India today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_India_(Maoist)

In America, I mean.

 

[Enron]

Remind me, how much did the American public spend on bailing out the banks?

$16 billion of that went to bonuses for Goldman & Sachs employees the very next year.

Didn't GS repay every single dime it got from the federal government that same year? Pretty sure they did.

 

[XMonkey]

Remind me, how much did the American public spend on bailing out the banks?

$16 billion of that went to bonuses for Goldman & Sachs employees the very next year.

Don't bother. You're talking to the guy who thinks its only ok to exercise your right to protest for 1 day. Didn't accomplish your goals with that 1 day protest? Too damn bad.

 

[Jak140]

Chris Hedges on OWS w/ OccupyTVNY -- 10/15/11

Great video. Thanks for posting it.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

...





I'm in . . .

Good luck!

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

In America, I mean.

They mostly crapped out by the end of the 1970s, which makes this cosplayer an even odder person. I mean how could anyone with a straight face be. Maoist in this day and age unless line in India, like FARC in Columbia it's more criminal than anything political.

 

[FlyinJ]

Libertarians and Liberals are both against corporatism and fascism ..

Libertarians are against corporatism? They are the poster children for deregulation and the invisible hand. How could they be anti-corporate? They're more pro-corporate than the Republicans and Democrats combined.

 

[Dude Abides]

Didn't GS repay every single dime it got from the federal government that same year? Pretty sure they did.

Yep. They got a loan from the government at a below-market interest rate and paid it all back. So they got a nice subsidy from the taxpayer.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Yep. They got a loan from the government at a below-market interest rate and paid it all back. So they got a nice subsidy from the taxpayer.

So didn't the government make money on the deal?

 

[sangreal]

Didn't GS repay every single dime it got from the federal government that same year? Pretty sure they did.

They were also forced to take the money

 

[Enron]

Yep. They got a loan from the government at a below-market interest rate and paid it all back. So they got a nice subsidy from the taxpayer.

According to Bloomberg, GS repayment of TARP funds generated a 23% return for the US Gov't.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a6pS.2Pr7bdQ