Support NeoGAF

[empty vessel]

For the record, I'm more than willing to have the "now what?" discussion because it poses an interesting dilemma for the movement. Without eventually taking a more active role in the political process I don't see them accomplishing much in the long run other than making headlines here and there. However, where do they jump in? With Republicans who have spent the past three years fighting ferociously for wealthy people and little else, whose only reaction so far to the protestors is indifference and a not-so-subtle grinding of their teeth? With Democrats, who when given the opportunity to enact progressive legislation either punt or fumble time and time again, not directly chastising middle America but attempting to placate them instead? Third parties provide a very distant possibility for relevancy but also a great deal of danger in the form of fringe elements and messaging issues.

It's a challenge.

I'm genuinely think it's something that the movement per se should not concern itself with. If the movement can stay active, continue to grow, and can consistently bring more and more people out into the streets to make demands, electoral politics will eventually respond to that through no organized or concerted effort of the movement directed towards that end. Economic rulers will perceive it as a threat to their rule, elite opinion will fracture, and policy accomodations will be made.

I think the keys are growing the movement and sustaining the movements.

 

[Jak140]

For the record, I'm more than willing to have the "now what?" discussion because it poses an interesting dilemma for the movement. Without eventually taking a more active role in the political process I don't see them accomplishing much in the long run other than making headlines here and there. However, where do they jump in? With Republicans who have spent the past three years fighting ferociously for wealthy people and little else, whose only reaction so far to the protestors is indifference and a not-so-subtle grinding of their teeth? With Democrats, who when given the opportunity to enact progressive legislation either punt or fumble time and time again, not directly chastising middle America but attempting to placate them instead? Third parties provide a very distant possibility for relevancy but also a great deal of danger in the form of fringe elements and messaging issues.

It's a challenge.

It's definitely a potential stumbling block, but I think that dilemma is exactly the impetus that birthed this movement. I do wonder if/when the increasingly louder protests of the public at large will force the hand of legislators to respect their wishes, but I don't doubt that they have the potential to grow much larger if this economic malaise continues and deepens -- barring some extreme authoritarian crack down.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

I'm genuinely think it's something that the movement per se should not concern itself with. If the movement can stay active, continue to grow, and can consistently bring more and more people out into the streets to make demands, electoral politics will eventually respond to that through no organized or concerted effort of the movement directed towards that end. Economic rulers will perceive it as a threat to their rule, elite opinion will fracture, and policy accomodations will be made.

I think the keys are growing the movement and sustaining the movements.

It'd be nice if OWS were sustained by its own momentum but I just don't see that happening in the long run without a few carrots here and there, beyond just, "Ok ok, your permit is extended."

 

[Door2Dawn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=24BTI2F3MF0#!

This is pretty clever.

 

[kame-sennin]

For the record, I'm more than willing to have the "now what?" discussion because it poses an interesting dilemma for the movement. Without eventually taking a more active role in the political process I don't see them accomplishing much in the long run other than making headlines here and there. However, where do they jump in? With Republicans who have spent the past three years fighting ferociously for wealthy people and little else, whose only reaction so far to the protestors is indifference and a not-so-subtle grinding of their teeth? With Democrats, who when given the opportunity to enact progressive legislation either punt or fumble time and time again, not directly chastising middle America but attempting to placate them instead? Third parties provide a very distant possibility for relevancy but also a great deal of danger in the form of fringe elements and messaging issues.

It's a challenge.

The reason why people use the term "neo-feudalism" is because, among other things, the people do not have the power to enact change through the electoral process. The purpose of OWS is not to elect a new king, it is to get the current king to sign the Magna Carta, so to speak.

In other news:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/18/occupy-wall-street-pepper-spray-officer?newsfeed=true

Occupy Wall Street officer Anthony Bologna 'broke pepper-spray rules'

A New York City police deputy inspector violated department guidelines when he used pepper spray on Occupy Wall Street protesters last month, a source with knowledge of the investigation has told the Associated Press.

The person had direct knowledge of the review but was not authorised to speak publicly and spoke to the AP on Tuesday on condition of anonymity.

The video from the incident on 24 September shows deputy inspector Anthony Bologna blasting a cluster of women with pepper spray. Two of the women crumple on the sidewalk in pain, and one screams.

The person says an internal New York Police Department review found that Bologna violated department standards on pepper spray use.

He faces internal discipline of a loss of vacation time. He may choose to appeal the decision.

 

[Jak140]

The reason why people use the term "neo-feudalism" is because, among other things, the people do not have the power to enact change through the electoral process. The purpose of OWS is not to elect a new king, it is to get the current king to sign the Magna Carta, so to speak.

Great post.

 

[empty vessel]

It'd be nice if OWS were sustained by its own momentum but I just don't see that happening in the long run without a few carrots here and there, beyond just, "Ok ok, your permit is extended."

No doubt. The difficulty definitely lies in sustaining it and bringing more and more people out. Also, even if OWS fades away, all is not lost as more people will be mobilized and connected for a future movement.

 

[richiek]

I'm gonna go ahead and stop, because it's pretty clear to me now that you won't - no matter how many times you say you will.

But you're a piece of work, to be sure.

This cannot be quoted enough:

In the interest of letting people discuss the issues at hand, whatever they may feel they are or however they feel about them, I withdraw from posting in this thread and any future thread on the subject.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

This cannot be quoted enough:

Yet, it keeps seeming to bring out the exact opposite of what you hoped for.

 

[richiek]

Yet, it keeps seeming to bring out the exact opposite of what you hoped for.

So you admit that you're a liar who goes back on his word? Good to know.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

Occupy Wall Street officer Anthony Bologna 'broke pepper-spray rules'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/18/occupy-wall-street-pepper-spray-officer?newsfeed=true

Seriously? His name is Tony Bologna?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/...y-re-directing-services-to-Occupy-Philly.html

A truck in a creek, which the NSU eventually removed.
We know how much the city is spending on Occupy Philly, but what about the protest's cost in re-directed services? For the first week and a half that Occupy Philly held court in City Hall, the Police Department's entire Neighborhood Services Unit was detailed to the protest to watch over its participants. That means for that week and a half, the roughly 30-officer unit, whose responsibilities include responding to abandoned vehicle complaints, recovering stolen cars and investigating reports of short dumping and graffiti, didn't exist in the rest of the city.

NSU's Sgt. Frank Spires said that all 3-1-1 complaints, as well as direct calls to the unit, were shelved until the detail was over.

"It's a shame," Spires said. "We provide a service to the neighborhood."

As of Friday, NSU's detail to the protest was cut in half. Friday was a busy day, Spires said, as his officers tackled the backlog of calls. NSU receives about 160 3-1-1 complaints a week, on top of the roughly 30 complaints that come from direct calls to the unit. The unit recovers about 60 stolen vehicles a week, as well as filing the paperwork for people to reclaim the vehicles.

Part of the reason NSU being detailed can have such an effect on the city is that it's the only unit authorized to do abandoned vehicle paperwork (Spires says this is so the towing process is "ethically sound"). This means that other cops can't get a vehicle towed. They have to call NSU.

For example, earlier this summer, Help Desk did a ride-along with Spires and watched as he responded to a call from two 22nd District cops. A car had been abandoned at a turning lane, blocking traffic right in the middle of 33rd and Girard. Spires got the car towed right then and there. If there was a situation like that during the Occupy Philly detail, it would have been a lot harder for police to respond.

Thanks again Occupy Philadelphia! You're really helping the community out!

 

[Chichikov]

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/...y-re-directing-services-to-Occupy-Philly.html



Thanks again Occupy Philadelphia! You're really helping the community out!

So now you're opposing political rallies in general?
Come on man, so you thought OWS will fizzle, big deal, stop digging, you're making a fool of yourself.

p.s.
I'm not saying you can't criticize those people, but this is beyond silly, surely, even you can see that.

 

[Dude Abides]

Hear that dirty protestors? It's YOUR fault that Philadelphia PD has a rule that only cops in a certain unit can call for towing. Imagine if a hypothetical thing that did not happen had actually happened! The city could hypothetically have ground to a halt! Then where would we hypothetically be?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So now you're opposing political rallies in general?

I am opposed to squatting not a political rally I said earlier, I understand the costs that come from it, but its limited and not a continuing drain on city resources.

I'm not saying you can't criticize those people, but this is beyond silly, surely, even you can see that.

When they start causing the city to have to transfer resources from it's normal usage and cause continued waste o a significant amount of money from the city coffers, I think it's fair to criticize them.

 

[Jak140]

So now you're opposing political rallies in general?
Come on man, so you thought OWS will fizzle, big deal, stop digging, you're making a fool of yourself.

p.s.
I'm not saying you can't criticize those people, but this is beyond silly, surely, even you can see that.

No one should demand justice because that might cost money.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Hear that dirty protestors? It's YOUR fault that Philadelphia PD has a rule that only cops in a certain unit can call for towing. Imagine if a hypothetical thing that did not happen had actually happened! The city could hypothetically have ground to a halt! Then where would we hypothetically be?

Still so bitter.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

No one should demand justice because that might cost money.

There are no demands.

 

[Dude Abides]

Still so bitter.

Only hypothetically, earlier this summer.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

No one should demand justice because that might cost money.

When it costs 80K a day and for an extended period time people should ask if they're harming more people than they're hurting.

 

[Jak140]

There are no demands.

There are many demands, and as I wrote earlier, the unifying demand is not even a demand so much as it is a statement that government should represent the interests of the many over those of the monied. Their presence is powerful in itself.

 

[Chichikov]

I am opposed to squatting not a political rally I said earlier, I understand the costs that come from it, but its limited and not a continuing drain on city resources.

When they start causing the city to have to transfer resources from it's normal usage and cause continued waste o a significant amount of money from the city coffers, I think it's fair to criticize them.

Every political rally cost the city money, every single one of them.
Do you have a dollar figure that above it its become unacceptable?

Come on man, be honest, are you really against this rally because they cost the city money?
If not, let stick to argument you really believe in, instead of scouring the internet looking for ways to score points.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

There are many demands, and as I wrote earlier, the unifying demand is not even a demand so much as it is a statement that government should represent the interests of the many over those of the monied. Their presence is powerful in itself.

Oh yeah... Natural healthy food for all. Forgot about that one.

 

[FlyinJ]

Tea Party Nation responds to OWS:

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/tea-party-nation-urges-businesses-stop-hiring-order-hurt-obama

 

[Jak140]

When it costs 80K a day and for an extended period time people should ask if they're harming more people than they're hurting.

Do they not deserve to be provided the services that the public has paid for? Is that money not going back into the community through the hands of the police force? Is that amount not peanuts to the amount the public has been defrauded of?

 

[Jak140]

Oh yeah... Natural healthy food for all. Forgot about that one.

There are substantial demands from the group at large that support the unifing force behind them and there are insubstantial demands from smaller less relevant groups within. The later does not negate the former.

 

[kame-sennin]

There are no demands.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

There are substantial demands from the group at large that support the unifing force behind them and there are insubstantial demands from smaller less relevant groups within. The later does not negate the former.

The lack of a unified voice is turning this into a farce.
And quite a farce it is. Loved the Howard Stern interviews. Have they been posted here?

Just in case they haven't...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsJPKMvWDmY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[empty vessel]

There are no demands.

There is no earth.

 

[kame-sennin]

Every political rally cost the city money, every single one of them.
Do you have a dollar figure that above it its become unacceptable?

Come on man, be honest, are you really against this rally because they cost the city money?
If not, let stick to argument you really believe in, instead of scouring the internet looking for ways to score points.

No one can mount a serious argument in defense of America's oligarchy. They have factually committed fraud and the government's complicity in this is factually corrupt.

There are no demands.

The lack of a unified voice is turning this into a farce.

Are there too many demands or no demands? I can't keep your arguments straight.

 

[gkryhewy]

Goals are simple: tax the rich.

 

[Azih]

Goals are simple: tax the rich.

Add Regulate the financial industry and break the hold that Wall Street has over Washington onto there.

 

[Karma Kramer]

lol bulbo, do you read the news? or do you just watch fox news?

 

[cooljeanius]

Really annoyed with how r/occupywallstreet is telling MoveOn to fuck off. MoveOn is just trying to help and supports the same goals. Kicking them out of the movement will probably do more harm than good.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

No one can mount a serious argument in defense of America's oligarchy. They have factually committed fraud and the government's complicity in this is factually corrupt.





Are there too many demands or no demands? I can't keep your arguments straight.

I listened to the above interviews of the protestors and I think I'm pretty squared away now as to what's going on. Now I can understand why there's no coherency in this movement. So... to address your question. Silence is the way to go for you guys. No demands are certainly better than any demands. Stay away from microphones.

 

[DanteFox]

Goals are simple: tax the rich.

well, mission accomplished.

 

[thekad]

The thing about this whole movement is that these guys don't seem to know WHY they're protesting.

 

[bounchfx]

The thing about this whole movement is that these guys don't seem to know WHY they're protesting.

haha, good one bro! wham! am I right?

 

[Enron]

Really annoyed with how r/occupywallstreet is telling MoveOn to fuck off. MoveOn is just trying to help and supports the same goals. Kicking them out of the movement will probably do more harm than good.

MoveOn is the kind of crazy they don't need. Good for them for sending them packing.

 

[Pie Lord]

The lack of a unified voice is turning this into a farce.
And quite a farce it is. Loved the Howard Stern interviews. Have they been posted here?

Just in case they haven't...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsJPKMvWDmY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Oh man, that was painful to listen to. Did they go out of their way to interview the ignorant people they could find?

 

[Something Wicked]

Goals are simple: tax the rich.

At what specific rates for which specific brackets?

 

[empty vessel]

Oh man, that was painful to listen to. Did they go out of their way to interview the ignorant people they could find?

It's an entertainment program, what do you think?

 

[cooljeanius]

MoveOn is the kind of crazy they don't need. Good for them for sending them packing.

MoveOn isn't crazy at all. Better to send packing the "End The Fed" guys, separatists, and people who actually disagree with the movement rather than MoveOn, who is pretty much in line with Occupy Wall Street anyway.

 

[magicstop]

When it costs 80K a day and for an extended period time people should ask if they're harming more people than they're hurting.

They aren't hurting nearly as many people as are the dogs in charge. In fact, if you want to be perverse about it, they are creating jobs and giving the NYPD overtime, I'm sure, lol. Bottom line is, if our only option is to step on a few toes while fighting for deep change needed by many, or hiding in corners because we don't want to *GASP* bleed the system a hair, I'll take the first option. Not like we're putting a mark on the fucking billions of tax payer dollars that were used to bailout the fucking fatcats of Wall St. Get a fucking perspective, Manos.

Also,

In the interest of letting people discuss the issues at hand, whatever they may feel they are or however they feel about them, I withdraw from posting in this thread and any future thread on the subject.

Moving on, I'm back in for the night after many chores. I'll start compiling information to update the OP with. Thanks for all the great contributions in the last several days, guys. It's nice to see a lot of pictures and perspectives coming in, as well as some great articles, etc.! Keep that info coming!

 

[Pie Lord]

It's an entertainment program, what do you think?

You would assume that is the case. That doesn't make those people any easier to listen to.

 

[empty vessel]

You would assume that is the case. That doesn't make those people any easier to listen to.

Certainly not. One of the many problems with income inequality is that it makes more people stupid. But at least some people are stupid and on the right side, which is more than can be said for the stupid people on the wrong side.

 

[gkryhewy]

At what specific rates for which specific brackets?

I'm not picky. I'll take any change in the right (left) direction. Even a reversal of the Bush rates would be a big step in the right direction.

Do protestors need to have actuarial tables and spreadsheets? Because if so, those tea party dimwits are totally fucked.

 

[cooljeanius]

The thing about this whole movement is that these guys don't seem to know WHY they're protesting.

Did you see the comic on the previous page?

 

[pompidu]

The thing about this whole movement is that these guys don't seem to know WHY they're protesting.

There's probably close to 100 links in this thread that tell you what their protesting. If after 90 pages you still don't know what their protesting, that says more about you than them.

 

[thekad]

^That's the joke.

Did you see the comic on the previous page?

It's amazing that 24/7 news networks with staffs of investigative reporters are incapable of figuring out what's immediately obvious to anyone paying attention. Maybe they should have checked on their Twitter reporters.