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"OCCUPY WALL STREET"
- Thread starter jon bones
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Wazzim said:
They are no different than you and I. The American public is at a near 20-year high with their savings rate. Which is even more amazing considering the historic lows that interest rates are at.
When people are nervous about the future, they sit on their money.
You expect this type of rhetoric to win people over? This is a slippery slope argument that is akin to a right winger saying that by allowing gays to marry, we will one day allow men to marry goats.
Foreign Jackass
Member
The dynamics in this thread are pretty incredible. Some people in here are actually rooting against a manifestation that wants to get retribution against state-sponsored banking thieves. It goes to show how America's been brainwashed into believing in this whole system.
If, like me, you're a guy who doesn't have much money but has money on the side invested, and who hasn't seen any return on those investments in the past 5 years, all the while seeing those thieves making money on the crisis they created, you should see this manifestation as the incredible thing it is.
If, like me, you're a guy who doesn't have much money but has money on the side invested, and who hasn't seen any return on those investments in the past 5 years, all the while seeing those thieves making money on the crisis they created, you should see this manifestation as the incredible thing it is.
Foreign Jackass said:
Or I would see myself as someone who didn't make smart investments and was looking to take it out on the system instead of admitting that I could have avoided all of this had I paid more attention, made a better effort.
I'm not bragging because it's not like i'm making money hand over fist with my brilliant investments, but I and many others have been able to have a positive return over the last several years. It doesn't take a genius to keep your investments above water in an environment like this.
But OH MY GOD THE SYSTEM!!!!!!11!
dave is ok
aztek is ok
People are idiots. Most of them don't even realize how the financial industry's grift and fraud has affected themForeign Jackass said:
evil solrac v3.0
Member
Deku said:
the Jury is still out on how free those societies will be. every country's citizen's have different grievances, the protesters are trying to help improve how we function as a society.
Interesting version of events from a woman who got pepper sprayed. The video is tough to make out and you don't see what started the scuffle, but the women who get sprayed were clearly being physical with the officer.
http://bostonreview.net/BR36.5/jeanne_mansfield_occupy_wall_street.php
That said, I really don't see the need for him to pepper spray these people and I hope he is punished for it. I also don't see why the author of the post is acting like the "white shirts" murdered 400 people.
Bankster is hilariously lame. It sounds to me like a hipster spin off more than gangster.
http://bostonreview.net/BR36.5/jeanne_mansfield_occupy_wall_street.php
That said, I really don't see the need for him to pepper spray these people and I hope he is punished for it. I also don't see why the author of the post is acting like the "white shirts" murdered 400 people.
Bankster is hilariously lame. It sounds to me like a hipster spin off more than gangster.
Apparently you missed when the mainstream media coined the phrase and everyone started using it. That's ok. Most people don't know the mainstream media started the Tea Party with some financial reporter on CNBC or FNC (can't remember which channel I was watching) was screaming about how there needed to be a revolution of some kind. I was sitting there wondering why this news analyst had suddenly gone batshit on the air, and later I find that was supposedly the Tea Party call to arms.
JzeroT1437
Member
Marleyman said:
Only us Americans can have opinions on the economy, and everyone knows American-made investments are thriving, Marleyman. It's the damn foreigners who are pooping everything up.
JzeroT1437
Member
Enron said:
The bankers fucked over the general public, made a profit while fucking over the general public, asked the public to bail them out when it was obvious they were going to fail anyway, and continue to make a profit today performing at less-than-acceptable rates. I don't see how you can defend them, merit-based or not.
Something Wicked
Member
In 2011, a majority of Americans (above the age- let's say- of 22) have some level of personal exposure to equity and bond markets. To "completely abolish Wall Street[/the US financial industry]", which many of these "valiant protesters" are calling for, would hurt such investments of these people. Therefore, the protesters are against the financial well-being of a majority of Americans, and hence why most Americas/US media consider these protesters as a joke/misguided/entirely moronic among a host of other reasons as well.
empty vessel
Member
akira28 said:
Manos isn't exactly a paragon of nuanced thinking. The difference between the Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street movements is one of substance. I don't mock the tea party because they protest, I mock the movement as a whole because it has irredeemably bad ideas entirely disconnected from any rational understanding of the empirical world but which (coincidentally!) serve the interests of large corporations and the highest income earners in the country to my detriment.
On the other hand, protesting the economic forces that have caused wages to stagnate over the last thirty years; prevented effective, universal health care; and caused a financial economic crisis through organized criminal fraud at the highest corporate and governmental levels, effectively using American corporations as vessels for their own personal enrichment, is obviously a good thing, to any rational person. Doing something to register displeasure with the direction business and financial interests have taken this country over the last thirty years is, always, better than doing nothing. Anybody who supports economic and political reform should show their support.
But whether a few, many, or all of the individuals making up those protests are individually geeky, hippie, smelly, or otherwise uncool is obviously utterly irrelevant to whether one should support what they are doing. It'd be like my assailing tea party protesters because they wear their pants pulled up their waists too far. Manos obviously opposes anybody who organizes in any way against the interests of corporations or the anti-social shitheels who run them. Attacking individual protesters is the laziest way to make that critique, and so it is unsurprising that it comes from Manos.
If nothing else comes out of this, a few more connections between like-minded individuals will be made than would have without it, enhancing the political organization and morale of those with pro-social, rational understandings of the world. That's a good thing.
JzeroT1437
Member
Enron said:
No, I get it--you're trying to reduce the argument you were originally debating to a single instance as if it were an anomaly rather than the standard. Unfortunately, that isn't the case, as I pointed out. You're trying to dismantle the guy's argument by looking at the trees rather than the forest.
Enron said:
Come on now, it's not like it was all your amazing work that meant you had a +ve return. Results orientated? It's pretty clear that the financial collapse (perpetuated by bankers to a good extent) is going to tank a great portion of investments. Just because you achieved a +ve return it doesn't mean it was all because of your actions - why couldn't you have just gotten lucky?
fwiw, I'm not one of the 'BANKERS ARE EVIL AND SHOULD BE SENTENCED TO DEATH' people, but it's not exactly outlandish to suggest that their actions might affect someone's investments negatively.
JzeroT1437 said:
Uhm, no. I'm telling the guy that everyone with investments had to play in this backyard, and that many other people were able to navigate the terrain successfully enough. So why couldn't he? Blaming the powers that be for your inaction or failure is lazy.
bwtw said:
Sure, but ultimately whether or not you make any money with your portfolio is on YOU. Not Wall Street. Your investments taking a hit? There are things you can do to minimize that loss or stop it entirely. If you don't do them, well....
brucewaynegretzky
Member
empty vessel said:
There are some fairly subjective evaluations being made there. Dismissing an entire philosohpy of government is pretty arrogant. I agree that attacking individual protestors isn't a great way of attacking the pont they're making, but laughing at individual stupid still seems reasonable to me. I laugh at the idiots with dumb signs in the tea part and the idiots with dumb signs on Wall St. Isn't that pretty fair? I'm not saying people can't agree with certain basic policies they might believe, but that doesn't mean the person isn't a moron for some other reason (as demonstrated by their signs).
O and to people saying that "all methods of affecting change are equal." I call bullshit. Protesting is about the laziest piece of shit thing you can do. You are absolutely entitled to it, but don't expect me to hold your opinion in the same regard as someone who actually dedicates time and effort into actually doing something.
Enron said:
No, no it's not. Effort does not translate completely into results. You are ultimately always going to be subjected to the variance of the market. How do you suggest stopping losses entirely short of selling out your entire portfolio and putting is in a savings account? That would be horrible from an expected returns perspective, unless you believe you can time the market, which is ridiculous.
Dude Abides
Banned
richiek said:
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Actually those are fairly specific and call for focused actions. Did you also notice in the second picture that there are a limited number of messages and they are repeated? That is the better protest, you can see unity in message and goals by the marches and those reading the signs are not being overwhelmed with dozens of disparitive messages.Dude Abides said:
They also carry themselves with dignity and maturity.
brucewaynegretzky said:
lolol so now protesting takes no time or effort, and isn't doing anything? the fuck? what do you want these people to do? what else CAN we do? this is half the freaking problem. Outside of strength in numbers I can't think of anything else an average american could do to change things by themselves.
kame-sennin
Member
kame-sennin
Member
empty vessel said:
I agree. For me, one of the most troubling aspects of the Tea Party movement is that they didn't occupy Wall Street before this group did. Tea Party activists are disenfranchised by the same forces that these protesters are fighting against. Unfortunately, corporate America has done an incredible job of dividing (and conquering) the power of the populace.
"What are you protesting about?"Slayven said:
"Banksters are disenfranchising us...we need to rise up and end capitalism because capitalism -- hey! Is that veggie? Save me a slice! -- because the banksters are greedy and shit."
"What are you protesting about?"
"We want to be treated like human beings."
Well one thing is for sure; they certainly didn't seem to be acting in a manner that should result in them being pepper sprayed. They were standing there. Looking at what was going on, behind a barricade without making aggressive movements towards the police. WTF is wrong with some of the people in this thread?!??eznark said:
This. Also, that's a very good post by Empty Vessel.bounchfx said:
Dartastic said:
The video posted by one of the women sprayed shows the end of a slap fight between the women and officers. I just want to know who started it.
I understand that you want to blame banksters, copsters and people-with-jobsters but I'd personally like to actually see what happened before passing judgement.
brucewaynegretzky
Member
bounchfx said:
Why would you ever choose protesting over learning the system that is oppressing you? Why sit around Wall Street rather than study finance? Protesting can certainly do something, but it is still the lowest form of working towards change.
That's like saying that women who couldn't vote should have just studied how to become men instead of protesting. Do you really think that merely "studying finance" will have an effect on how horribly powerful Wall Street is, and make a real difference on the horribly negative effects they've had on the world economy? Seriously? Of course not. Things have gotten so insanely out of whack that things like protests are needed to try and regain some of the power that the common man has lost.brucewaynegretzky said:
brucewaynegretzky
Member
Dartastic said:
No it isn't. It's like saying they should have studied the system that was denying them voting rights and worked towards changing that system.
And it could make a difference if people who really wanted change tried to penetrate the industry.
I don't think your view on protests is as universal of a truth as you are asserting. Dartastic had a great point about women's suffrage that also applies to the civil rights movement. When the system shuts you out, then you can't learn the system and work on bringing change from inside it. When you're shut out of the system and are trying to affect wide-sweeping social reform, then protests, rallies, civil disobedience, etc. should all be on the table as means of bringing attention to your movement as well as to put pressure on the gate keepers of that system.brucewaynegretzky said:
I'm not saying that's the case here, but I just can't agree with your general view on protests.
brucewaynegretzky
Member
mre said:
On the table sure. But I would expect protests to be populated by people who are working towards change outside of that protest. Sitting around demanding change and doing nothing else isn't admirable. I think I may have come off a little too strongly against protests, but I still think it ranks lower than when compared against people doing actual work.
EDIT: Just from an example mentioned earlier. I'm sure there were a few organizations that would have GLADLY taken volunteers to help push Elizabeth Warren through the Senate.
kame-sennin
Member
Slayven said:
Using the civil rights movement to attack the disenfranchised is a much bigger insult.
brucewaynegretzky said:
So women should have run for office to get the right to vote? Blacks should have desegregated the South on their own? Your point makes absolutely no sense. If the system is broken, starting a movement is the only peaceful way to fix it.
brucewaynegretzky said:
I don't think you understand the level of corruption that exists in the American political/financial system. All three branches of government are under the influence of Wall Street and consistently act on its behalf. You can't fix that with a few good senators, or even a new president. The entire system is nakedly corrupt and broken.
Slayven said:
really dude? just because they're 'hipsters' (even if most of them probably aren't) it's not right to act like what they're trying to do is irrelevant, or isn't important. just because hipsters are the cool 2010's thing to hate doesn't mean it's right, especially when what they're trying to do should be universally supported (by everyone who isn't a mega-rich government controlling economy collapsing CEO) by anyone who understands what they're there for.
would you say the same thing if it were a 'bunch of black people aimlessly standing around'? or any other stereotype you would like to downplay for the sake of making this look less important than it is?
honest question, do you really think it's fine that the people who helped bring the economy to this state should still have their jobs? and have the taxpayers fit the bill while they get raises? or hell, to somehow NOT go to jail?
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