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[bounchfx]

On the table sure. But I would expect protests to be populated by people who are working towards change outside of that protest. Sitting around demanding change and doing nothing else isn't admirable.

It may not be 'admirable' to you, but it should still be taken seriously if someone puts their name on an outcry with several others that obviously feel strong enough about something to go protest. It's not as easy as you make it out to be.

and please, tell me a way to 'work toward change' outside of a protest that doesn't involve me sacrificing my job and time with my loved ones, etc. I'm honestly interested. I have no idea as a citizen of the USA how to do anything to work towards an economic revival outside of spending my money and spreading the word that we got fucking shafted by corporate america while our government does nothing to protect us from it. I don't know how many people do.

and that doesn't even include the people that have no clue about all this bullshit, which is another problem entirely

 

[civilstrife]

They also carry themselves with dignity and maturity.

I guess that invalidates the whole gay pride movement, doesn't it? I mean, have you heard how some of those people talk or seen how they dress? Talk about undignified and immature. They'll never get anything done.

 

[ronito]

what exactly are their demands?

Capitalism go away? Good luck getting your iphone to work then.
Corporate greed to end? No amount of protesting is gonna do that.
Throw bankers in jail? Under what law? Also you're assuming all bankers are bad. Can you make that stick in the court of law?
More veggie pizza? At least that they can agree on.

If you're going to protest have a set agenda, that can be made reality. Sitting in wall street isn't going to solve corporate greed. Now if they had a well organized group with a set agenda that could actually be met. Perhaps it would be such a joke.

 

[kame-sennin]

really dude? just because they're 'hipsters' (even if most of them probably aren't) it's not right to act like what they're trying to do is irrelevant, or isn't important. just because hipsters are the cool 2010's thing to hate doesn't mean it's right, especially when what they're trying to do should be universally supported (by everyone who isn't a mega-rich government controlling economy collapsing CEO) by anyone who understands what they're there for.

would you say the same thing if it were a 'bunch of black people aimlessly standing around'? or any other stereotype you would like to downplay for the sake of making this look less important than it is?

honest question, do you really think it's fine that the people who helped bring the economy to this state should still have their jobs? and have the taxpayers fit the bill while they get raises? or hell, to somehow NOT go to jail?

I think people here do understand what's wrong with Wall Street. Whenever there's a thread about corruption in the financial sector (or Washington's support thereof) people are almost unanimously against what's going on. The problem with discussing protest is that we have been conditioned by forty years of media to look down on protesters and to believe that protesting is a useless gesture. Of course, this was a strategy created by conservatives in response to the tremendously successful protests of the 1960's which changed our entire society. Conservatives don't want to see another civil rights movement or anti-war movement or women's rights movement, so they've perpetuated the idea that "hippies" are hopeless idealists who never accomplish anything. It's a brilliant political strategy and did it exactly what it was designed to do, sow division amongst the populace, destroying the solidarity needed to challenge oppressive power structures. I don't mean to criticize anyone in this thread, but all of us taking shots at each other over an issue we - at the core - pretty much agree on plays right into the hands of the people who have destroyed are economy.

 

[Slayven]

really dude? just because they're 'hipsters' (even if most of them probably aren't) it's not right to act like what they're trying to do is irrelevant, or isn't important. just because hipsters are the cool 2010's thing to hate doesn't mean it's right, especially when what they're trying to do should be universally supported (by everyone who isn't a mega-rich government controlling economy collapsing CEO) by anyone who understands what they're there for.

would you say the same thing if it were a 'bunch of black people aimlessly standing around'? or any other stereotype you would like to downplay for the sake of making this look less important than it is?

honest question, do you really think it's fine that the people who helped bring the economy to this state should still have their jobs? and have the taxpayers fit the bill while they get raises? or hell, to somehow NOT go to jail?

Universally support what? To call their message vague would is being generous. Being black isn't a stereotype. I would rather the government work on fixing the economy and make sure this doesn't happen again.

 

[kame-sennin]

what exactly are their demands?

Capitalism go away? Good luck getting your iphone to work then.
Corporate greed to end? No amount of protesting is gonna do that.
Throw bankers in jail? Under what law? Also you're assuming all bankers are bad. Can you make that stick in the court of law?
More veggie pizza? At least that they can agree on.

If you're going to protest have a set agenda, that can be made reality. Sitting in wall street isn't going to solve corporate greed. Now if they had a well organized group with a set agenda that could actually be met. Perhaps it would be such a joke.

First, laws were broken. Enforcing those laws would not be complicated. Second, the point of the protests is to bring attention to the corruption on Wall Street (they are already succeeding) and to put pressure on the government to enact reforms. Protests don't have to be as specific as 'we don't agree with this war and we're going to march until it ends'. I agree that focus is helpful, but simply bringing light to unjust systems and attempting to obstruct daily activity does put pressure on politicians to change course.

Do you support the way Wall Street behaved before and after the financial crisis? I'm not suggesting that you have to agree with the protesters. But ultimately, Wall Street is destroying the American economy, and this movement is trying to obstruct that. It's absolutely fair to criticize their tactics. But I think we all have a stake in the success of this movement.

 

[Dartastic]

really dude? just because they're 'hipsters' (even if most of them probably aren't) it's not right to act like what they're trying to do is irrelevant, or isn't important. just because hipsters are the cool 2010's thing to hate doesn't mean it's right, especially when what they're trying to do should be universally supported (by everyone who isn't a mega-rich government controlling economy collapsing CEO) by anyone who understands what they're there for.

would you say the same thing if it were a 'bunch of black people aimlessly standing around'? or any other stereotype you would like to downplay for the sake of making this look less important than it is?

honest question, do you really think it's fine that the people who helped bring the economy to this state should still have their jobs? and have the taxpayers fit the bill while they get raises? or hell, to somehow NOT go to jail?

This is really the issue here, and this is ultimately why they are protesting; these bankers have brought the economy down to it's knees, and even though we have pinpointed how this happened, NOBODY has been held accountable. This shouldn't be about Republicans or Democrats or any of that crap, it should be about FIXING our economy, and removing those who got us into the mess into the first place. Our government certainly isn't doing anything, so we have to take manners into our own hands. Protesting is the main way that a lot of people can do that.

 

[Dude Abides]

Actually those are fairly specific and call for focused actions. Did you also notice in the second picture that there are a limited number of messages and they are repeated? That is the better protest, you can see unity in message and goals by the marches and those reading the signs are not being overwhelmed with dozens of disparitive messages.

They also carry themselves with dignity and maturity.

They aren't focused and specific. One just says freedom, another just says equality, another equal rights; all vague terms. One person wants "decent housing," whatever that means. 1950s Manos would be mocking these hipsters and laughing when they got the fire hose, while 1950s brucewayne would be telling them to stop wasting their time and run for the Senate.

 

[AiTM]

Just watched some videos today, like the group being maced, and I gotta say regardless of their cause, the protesters in the videos Ive seen are wayyy over dramatic. They scream and cry like people are being murdered.

 

[Barrett2]

In defense of the Wall St. protestors, it is a much harder argument to articulate than something like civil rights. So, you can't really expect every sign to be totally coherent or focusing on the same page.

Though, I do agree that protestors in general would be viewed with more legitimacy if they wore conservative clothing. When you wear hippie clothes, you are basically asking people to not take you seriously.

 

[the chris]

In defense of the Wall St. protestors, it is a much harder argument to articulate than something like civil rights. So, you can't really expect every sign to be totally coherent or focusing on the same page.

Though, I do agree that protestors in general would be viewed with more legitimacy if they wore conservative clothing. When you wear hippie clothes, you are basically asking people to not take you seriously.

This right here, it's the same thing with people who want to legalize pot then go and try to get petitions signed wearing a "4:20" shirt.

 

[Marleyman]

what exactly are their demands?

Capitalism go away? Good luck getting your iphone to work then.
Corporate greed to end? No amount of protesting is gonna do that.
Throw bankers in jail? Under what law? Also you're assuming all bankers are bad. Can you make that stick in the court of law?
More veggie pizza? At least that they can agree on.

If you're going to protest have a set agenda, that can be made reality. Sitting in wall street isn't going to solve corporate greed. Now if they had a well organized group with a set agenda that could actually be met. Perhaps it would be such a joke.

They don't have any of what your requirements are because most people are too busy watching tv, playing video games and generally being apathetic to give a shit.

 

[richiek]

Though, I do agree that protestors in general would be viewed with more legitimacy if they wore conservative clothing. When you wear hippie clothes, you are basically asking people to not take you seriously.

They sure didn't take those Vietnam war protesters with their hippie clothes seriously, did they?

 

[Deku]

Just watched some videos today, like the group being maced, and I gotta say regardless of their cause, the protesters in the videos Ive seen are wayyy over dramatic. They scream and cry like people are being murdered.

There are workshops for protesters and they're taught police tactics and how to flail like an NBA player during the playoffs to get attention.

 

[Van Owen]

They sure didn't take those Vietnam war protesters with their hippie clothes seriously, did they?

The hippy movement has lost some relevance in the past 40 years.

 

[Barrett2]

They sure didn't take those Vietnam war protesters with their hippie clothes seriously, did they?

Vietnam protestors were wearing clothing contemporary for their time that a typical young person in the society also wore. People who dress like that now are not wearing contemporary clothing similar to many of their peers.

 

[MrJames]

Just watched some videos today, like the group being maced, and I gotta say regardless of their cause, the protesters in the videos Ive seen are wayyy over dramatic. They scream and cry like people are being murdered.

Indeed if this is true.

Phone inquiries into the county property records & taxpayer services office reveal that the Stephens family home is not and never has been in foreclosure, that property taxes had been paid in full this year and the remaining balance on their mortgage for the half-million dollar home is less than one year’s worth of tuition+fees at their son’s law school.

The nail in this empty protest‘s coffin is a delightful phone conversation I just had with Robert’s mother, Marquita, where she admitted Chase Bank indeed was not “taking” their home from them. Instead, due to a recent “reduction in income,” they’ve decided to hold a “short sale.”

Obviously from a conservative blog but the story looks legit.
http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2011/09/26/video-liberal-protestor-chokes-on-silver-spoon/

 

[AiTM]

Watching these videos I'm seriously starting to think this is a secret movement by the Illuminati to garner support for wall street and capitalism. Any middle America people that see these protesters are just going to be disgusted.

 

[140.85]

Throw bankers in jail? Under what law? Also you're assuming all bankers are bad. Can you make that stick in the court of law?

They probably think the banks own the courts.

 

[Venfayth]

Watching these videos I'm seriously starting to think this is a secret movement by the Illuminati to garner support for wall street and capitalism. Any middle America people that see these protesters are just going to be disgusted.

Damn Illuminati.

 

[dave is ok]

They probably think the banks own the courts.

The courts? The SEC make sure investigations are killed before they even get that far.

As much as you want to think this is conspiracy theorist bullshit. It actually happens, often.

 

[G.O.O.]

I like how some people who have been kept into ignorance for the past decades are expected to have a rock solid political program, just because they disagree with the way the crisis is handled and are the first hit by its consequences.

 

[dave is ok]

Obviously from a conservative blog but the story looks legit.
http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2011/09/26/video-liberal-protestor-chokes-on-silver-spoon/

Do you know what a short sale is? I really doubt that article is completely truthful. People don't short sell their house when they are in good financial shape.

 

[Marleyman]

Vietnam protestors were wearing clothing contemporary for their time that a typical young person in the society also wore. People who dress like that now are not wearing contemporary clothing similar to many of their peers.

Not true.

 

[Deku]

Not true.

Suffice to say, you're chasing after the chicken or the egg. It's likely the hippies pushed for their own style of fashion as every generation of young people has, but the point is fairly uncontestable that dressing up as a hippy in 2011 is not the same thing as a hippy dessed as one in the 60s and sends all sorts of messages about your motives and opens you up to mockery the way a Tea Partier dressed in costume from the revolutionary war.

People who cosplay like that usually have some warped rose colored view of the past.

Don't be so daft.

 

[Dash27]

Indeed if this is true.

Hah. Who will protect the impoverished 70k per year college students with a half million dollar home that they are selling? Oh the huge manatee. If you dont realize this is Chase Banks fault then you sir are worse than Hitler.

 

[ronito]

Lemme take a picture of your Corporate oppression with my D5000 DSLR. I bought a special lens for this protest against the capitalist pigs!

 

[dave is ok]

Hah. Who will protect the impoverished 70k per year college students with a half million dollar home that they are selling? Oh the huge manatee. If you dont realize this is Chase Banks fault then you sir are worse than Hitler.

They are selling the house for less than they owe on it to avoid foreclosure.

 

[radioheadrule83]

what exactly are their demands?

Capitalism go away? Good luck getting your iphone to work then.
Corporate greed to end? No amount of protesting is gonna do that.
Throw bankers in jail? Under what law? Also you're assuming all bankers are bad. Can you make that stick in the court of law?
More veggie pizza? At least that they can agree on.

If you're going to protest have a set agenda, that can be made reality. Sitting in wall street isn't going to solve corporate greed. Now if they had a well organized group with a set agenda that could actually be met. Perhaps it would be such a joke.

Disruption is a good enough agenda. The net effect of the irresponsibility on Wall Street was a higher state debt, forclosures, more burdens to the average person in the form of rising costs of living, job losses and so forth -- mass inconvenience. The idea of 'sitting in' on Wall Street is to cause disruption and inconvenience for a geographical area and particular sector of business, hassling them in retaliation for what has happened.

I agree that there are mixed messages, and some young people and idealist lefties err towards the melodramatic, but the general protesting is something I approve of. If more 'normal' people joined it, it would be all the better... disruption heaps pressure on those who are meant to keep the cogs well-oiled.

 

[Deku]

Disruption is a good enough agenda. The net effect of the irresponsibility on Wall Street was a higher state debt, forclosures, more burdens to the average person in the form of rising costs of living, job losses and so forth -- mass inconvenience. The idea of 'sitting in' on Wall Street is to cause disruption and inconvenience for a geographical area and particular sector of business, hassling them in retaliation for what has happened.

I agree that there are mixed messages, and some young people and idealist lefties err towards the melodramatic, but the general protesting is something I approve of. If more 'normal' people joined it, it would be all the better... disruption heaps pressure on those who are meant to keep the cogs well-oiled.

If that's the case, why not picket Goldman? Banks have largely emptied out of Wall Street.

The protest was meant to by symbolic occupation of wallstreet, it's fair game to call them on their mixed messages and general tardness.

The BBC can't figure out what they're protesting either.

Several hundred people took part in Saturday's march, which was intended to draw attention to "corporate greed and corrupt politics" in the US.

Participants carried banners supporting a range of other issues, including healthcare reform, an end to US wars and the scrapping of the death penalty.
The march came after a week of protests by the Occupy Wall Street campaign.

The loosely organised group says it is defending 99% of the US population against the wealthiest 1%, and had called for 20,000 people to "flood into lower Manhattan" on 17 September and remain there for "a few months".

Protesters, who are mostly young, initially numbered some 1,500 but their numbers had fallen to about 200 by Saturday's march.

 

[Van Owen]

Lemme take a picture of your Corporate oppression with my D5000 DSLR. I bought a special lens for this protest against the capitalist pigs!

Yeah, what a bunch of posers. At least keep it real by recording something on your phone made by *insert publically traded company*.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

They aren't focused and specific. One just says freedom, another just says equality, another equal rights; all vague terms. One person wants "decent housing," whatever that means. 1950s Manos would be mocking these hipsters and laughing when they got the fire hose, while 1950s brucewayne would be telling them to stop wasting their time and run for the Senate.

No it isn't and No I wouldn't, but if it makes you feel better you can think that.

I never said anything against people who demonstrated in favor of marriage equality.

 

[carlos]

slightly off topic:

so if I owe a mortage on a house that is way more than the current value of the house and I'm getting close to foreclosure/bankruptcy, I should???

 

[JzeroT1437]

I went down last night after work to take some photos.

Michael Moore was there, and got interviewed by Fox 5 and CNN:

Parts of the sidewalk was covered in protester's signs:

Some people had gone full-on 60's protest era crazy with their garb:

Turnout was pretty massive:

Cops surrounded the area but were pretty laid back:

The media center worked through the night, uploading content and photographing the event:

And the protesters even had a library and peace crane booth set up:

 

[dave is ok]

slightly off topic:

so if I owe a mortage on a house that is way more than the current value of the house and I'm getting close to foreclosure/bankruptcy, I should???

Start paying your mortgage payments? Just because you're underwater doesn't mean that someone is going to take your house away, unless you stop paying.

 

[Dude Abides]

No it isn't and No I wouldn't, but if it makes you feel better you can think that.

I never said anything against people who demonstrated in favor of marriage equality.

No what isn't?

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but it's poor form to spam the thread with jokes and mockery and then get all whiny when you get mocked in return.

 

[carlos]

Start paying your mortgage payments? Just because you're underwater doesn't mean that someone is going to take your house away, unless you stop paying.

no of course the payments are getting made, just harder to pay each time

 

[Krauser Kat]

They are selling the house for less than they owe on it to avoid foreclosure.

Short Sales are POS to get into and to get out of. Such a shit way to sell a house. Once you bid on it you cannot remove your bid, which may take months to complete just for the bank to say no. Its the last ditch effort to get money out of the house before the owner walks away and it becomes the banks problem.

 

[Slayven]

They aren't focused and specific. One just says freedom, another just says equality, another equal rights; all vague terms. One person wants "decent housing," whatever that means. 1950s Manos would be mocking these hipsters and laughing when they got the fire hose, while 1950s brucewayne would be telling them to stop wasting their time and run for the Senate.

Does it hurt to stretch that far? Go watch some interviews from that time, those protesters were able to explain why they were marching and what they wanted the end result to be. No one have yet figured out what the thing New York is about. Go read the minutes from their "General Assembly" meetings, if I didn't know better I would say it was badly written parody.

 

[dave is ok]

no of course the payments are getting made, just harder to pay each time

If you're no longer able to make them, I'd see a lawyer about bankruptcy. It's possible you could discharge some other debts which would free up the money required to keep your home.

 

[Krauser Kat]

slightly off topic:

so if I owe a mortage on a house that is way more than the current value of the house and I'm getting close to foreclosure/bankruptcy, I should???

Bams is hopefully working on this with freddie and fanny it can refinanced with out any legislation.

 

[carlos]

thanks for the info, its not for myself, (i dont have a dime, but dont have debts either), its for some close family members, this whole situation sucks so bad for them right now.
I believe they still owe most of the student loans as well, its a complete clusterfuck.

 

[Dude Abides]

Does it hurt to stretch that far? Go watch some interviews from that time, those protesters were able to explain why they were marching and what they wanted the end result to be. No one have yet figured out what the thing New York is about. Go read the minutes from their "General Assembly" meetings, if I didn't know better I would say it was badly written parody.

Nope. The movement was full of conflicts and disagreements about strategy and end results. Go read a book about it.

 

[Dash27]

They are selling the house for less than they owe on it to avoid foreclosure.

And this is the fault of Chase Bank why.

 

[dave is ok]

And this is the fault of Chase Bank why.

I don't know anything about the terms of the loan, though it is possible it was a shitty predatory adjustable rate as the banks loved giving out to people too dumb to know better.

My point was that the article was disengenuous. Which it was.

 

[Barrett2]

thanks for the info, its not for myself, (i dont have a dime, but dont have debts either), its for some close family members, this whole situation sucks so bad for them right now.
I believe they still owe most of the student loans as well, its a complete clusterfuck.

Student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy, but if they are really underwater on their mortgage, they could just walk away, then declare bankruptcy, which may or may not be a smart financial move, depending on how much dischargeable debt they have, how much their jobs would be impacted by the bankruptcy on their credit.

Some lenders make it extremely difficult to refinance even after Congress passed that law a few years back. Depending on who the current holder of the mortgage is, and whether they are willing to negotiate, and other factors, bankruptcy might not be a bad option.

 

[Marleyman]

I went down last night after work to take some photos.

Michael Moore was there, and got interviewed by Fox 5 and CNN:

http://i51.tinypic.com/r9fk03.jpg
Parts of the sidewalk was covered in protester's signs:

[IMG]http://i52.tinypic.com/168zqkx.jpg
[IMG]http://i53.tinypic.com/rtgtac.jpg
Some people had gone full-on 60's protest era crazy with their garb:

[IMG]http://i54.tinypic.com/29uoxly.jpg[
Turnout was pretty massive:

[IMG]http://i56.tinypic.com/24m88qh.jpg[/
Cops surrounded the area but were pretty laid back:

[IMG]http://i55.tinypic.com/jqqf5z.jpg[/
The media center worked through the night, uploading content and photographing the event:

[IMG]http://i55.tinypic.com/x38hox.jpg
And the protesters even had a library and peace crane booth set up:

[IMG]http://i55.tinypic.com/2rzc20z.jpg[/
[IMG]http://i51.tinypic.com/51vm2a.jpg][/QUOTE]

Great pictures; thanks man. I support these protests but I can't leave and go to NYC; got a kid to take care of, job to go to and bills to pay.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

No what isn't?

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but it's poor form to spam the thread with jokes and mockery and then get all whiny when you get mocked in return.

Not whining, just saying your wrong.

 

[AiTM]

Was Michael Moore still advocating we replace capitalism with "democracy"?

 

[Dash27]

I don't know anything about the terms of the loan, though it is possible it was a shitty predatory adjustable rate as the banks loved giving out to people too dumb to know better.

My point was that the article was disengenuous. Which it was.

Not that I'm defending the article or not, seems pretty straight forward with a bit of hyperbole, but I dont see it as disingenuous. We dont know all the details but the home is not in foreclosure as the rather dramatic young man wanted us to believe.

If anything he'd have a better sell if he tried to blame sub prime mortgages for causing the downturn which possibly lead to his parents "reduction in income"... but then ironically they'd be partly to blame there too. Looks like no escaping personal accountability on this one.