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[Shin Johnpv]

That would be Justice.

I know my Guilty Gear mythos, boy.

Yet you don't know who I-No is.

I-No was the boss in GGX2 in the US and she was a full on fucking bitch.

 

[Saitou]

That would be Justice.

I know my Guilty Gear mythos, boy.

I was doubtful, but decided to post anyway. I are smrat.

 

[Saint Gregory]

That would be Justice.

I know my Guilty Gear mythos, boy.

Whoa, whoa, what! Justice is Dizzy's mother! This thread just continues to get more mindblowing.

Dont get rid of the N-Gage!

I said home console. I'd never give up my N-Gage, NEVER!

Spoiler

Don't actually have one, sorry

 

[HK-47]

Whoa, whoa, what! Justice is Dizzy's mother! This thread just continues to get more mindblowing.

I said home console. I'd never give up my N-Gage, NEVER!

Spoiler

Don't actually have one, sorry

Not the Phantom!!!

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Yeah, not GTA IV thats what. Please call my on my anti Wii agenda (doesnt exist) but you lose parts of those games beyond teh perty graphix

Okay, I'll bite.

What specific non-aesthetic gameplay features of GTA4 are impossible to do on anything except a PS3 or 360?

 

[Pureauthor]

Yet you don't know who I-No is.

I-No was the boss in GGX2 in the US and she was a full on fucking bitch.

I know who I-No is. Whatever gave you the idea that I don't?

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Yet you lose out. You might as well hope for San Andreas Wii, cause you aint getting GTA IV. You wont get the size, the physics, and amount of people on the street that makes the city feel alive. You might as well not fucking bother.

Such bitterness. If Wii does get a port of GTA4, what's it to you? What the hell is your problem? Does it drag your experience of the game down? Just shut up and eat your crow and let other people enjoy their games, TYVM.

 

[Linkup]

Okay, I'll bite.

What specific non-aesthetic gameplay features of GTA4 are impossible to do on anything except a PS3 or 360?

I think you should be asking whether the people who would/do buy said on wii would care that they didn't get all the features/tech or even know about said feature being missing. Obviously, wii has a large group that own it(not on gaf) and don't own 360 or PS3 so the argument works in wii's favor as those exclusive wii owners would be the target for that type of decision. Unless you are going to go for the nintendo fan who has a wii.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I know who I-No is. Whatever gave you the idea that I don't?

Because he specifically mentioned I-No in his original post and like 2 replies later you replied with.

Not that I know of. Maybe Darkstalkers?

Made it seem to me that you didn't know who I-No was.

 

[Pureauthor]

Because he specifically mentioned I-No in his original post and like 2 replies later you replied with.

HK-47 was talking about a supposed 'impossible boss' in GGJ. GGJ does not possess said impossible boss, so I suggested that maybe it was the Darkstalkers game instead.

 

[Starchasing]

Okay, I'll bite.

What specific non-visual gameplay features of GTA4 are impossible to do on anything except a PS3 or 360?

fixed for ya

 

[Man God]

GTA IV is perfectly scalable to the Wii or PS2.

I really doubt they'll do it though.

That being said I'm amazed that there hasn't been a waggle port of the GTA III Trilogy. That's money on the table.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

HK-47 was talking about a supposed 'impossible boss' in GGJ. GGJ does not possess said impossible boss, so I suggested that maybe it was the Darkstalkers game instead.

I understand but he specifically said I-No which *shrug* to me would have made me think he got the platform wrong instead of the game. Since I-No is an impossible boss in a GG game.

I digress though just explaining why I thought that. Just different ways of looking at things but back to NPD talk.


I'm just gonna say I second people's amazement at 3rd parties impersonations of ostriches. If we ignore the numbers they'll go away! I'm gonna say that at some point, the WW numbers (yes I know this is an NPD thread though) are going to be too overwhelming to ignore. If things keep like this, by year 4 or so the Wii could have double the install base of the PS3+360. For developers to ignore that and still cling to this "Its a fad! Sales are gonna drop any day now!" just comes off as bad business to me. I will say it doesn't help that Pachter and the rest of the Analysts out there just seem to be enablers.

"Don't worry the PS3 is going to be number 1 yes it will, its gonna happen!"

After 18 months or so of none stop high sales one of them has to just wake up and admit they were wrong. That they bet on the wrong horse.

 

[kame-sennin]

But, Ninty doesn't need me, or anyone really like me. They're making piles of money so I'm sure they'd be happy just trucking on doing their thing. Which, from a business perspective is very sensible honestly. But they're ignoring a segment of gamers like me to this day, and as of such, they won't get any of my money. And looking at what's ahead, they won't be getting my money anytime this year once again neither. Though, like I said, they don't need it. :lol

This is a common misconception which comes from the standard industry practice of catering to the hardcore. Because the hardcore have always been the focus of software and hardware design, they assume that any company that does not focus on them (Nintendo) is not interested at all: "Nintendo only wants casuals". This is completely false. If for no other reason than greed, Nintendo absolutely will make a play for the hardcore audience. The difference between Nintendo and other companies is in how they address the entirety of the market.

The market does not just consist of hardcore and casuals, it is stratified, going from most avid to least avid consumers:

Hardcore gamers
Core gamers
Intermediate gamers
Semi - frequent gamers
Former gamers
Casual gamers
Non gamers

The PS2 launched with games that appealed to the hardcore, at a price that was prohibitive to the lower tiers of the market. However, as the price dropped, and more games with broader appeal were released, Sony gradually moved down the market (PS3 is an attempt to repeat this strategy). I would argue that the base of the PS2 is made up of semi-frequent gamers and that they have scratched the surface of the casual strata with Singstar and Guitar Hero. As I said, this is the common practice of the video game industry, and any company that does not properly work its way down the pecking order is viewed as an abnormality.

However, Nintendo realized that the most difficult consumers to target, would be the people who don't consume video games at all. And that the industry itself is a pyramid, with the most consumers (non-gamers) residing in the bottom tier. Therefore, the challenge for the Wii and DS would be to successfully crack into an untapped market that had no historical data, sales trends, or any other predictor of how it would react. But if non-gamers could be reached, then the Wii and DS could travel up the market. If you were to win over the largest strata first, you would provide third parties with a temptingly large user base to develop for.

More importantly, Nintendo is planning to use what Iwata calls "bridge games" to coax casual gamers into becoming more avid. Bridge games include: NSMB, Mario Kart DS, Mario Kart Wii, and Link's Cross Bow Training. Essentially, these are hardcore-light games, with simple interfaces that non-gamers can grasp:

"Iwata: I think that although a lot of people would find the FPS games really fun, many have this image that it’s really hard to bridge the gap in difficulty between the two.

Miyamoto: Right, and I really felt there was room for a game that would bridge that gap, which is why I created Link’s Crossbow Training. Since you use the Wii Remote to aim, it’s a really comfortable way of playing an FPS."

As you can see, Nintendo wants to lure in non-gamers with games like Wii Sports and Wii Fit, and lead these consumers by the hand up the market towards more complex games. Will it work? I doubt that soccer moms will play FPS, but I think with the right demographics it may (dads playing light gun shooters, former gamers playing rpgs, ect.). Either way, it is Nintendo's intention to release games that progress from the easily accessible, to the more complex. As they do so, their games travel up the market and attract more avid users. If the third parties notice that sales trends are moving up market (from Carnival Games to Resident Evil), they may be inclined to jump on at the higher tiers. We may be seeing this already with MH3, Mad World, Fragile, Fatal Frame, and Red Steel 2, but only time will tell.

But, if Nintendo is successful, then they will in fact be targeting gamers like yourself. The only difference is that they have taken the opposite path, and put the hardcore gamer last on the list of markets to tap.

"I understand that some experts argue that our success is short-lived and temporary. So, now we need to make efforts to [offer] services and titles that can appeal not only to those who have never played games but also to those who play them hard." - Iwata

 

[Linkup]

However, Nintendo realized that the most difficult consumers to target, would be people who don't consume video games at all. And that this was in fact the largest market. Therefore, the challenge for the Wii and DS would be to successfully crack into an untapped market that had no historical data, sales trends, or any other predictor of how it would react. But if non-gamers could be reached, then the Wii and DS could travel up the market. If you were to win over the largest strata first, you would provide third parties with a temptingly large user base to develop for.

I've argued this before and other things you've said plus I even used quotes from Iwata also, but many simply don't want to acknowledge it or believe it. The elitist get pissed when they hear they aren't the only focus anymore.

 

[kame-sennin]

I've argued this before and other things you've said plus I even used quotes from Iwata also, but many simply don't want to acknowledge it or believe it. The elitist get pissed when they hear they aren't the only focus anymore.

Not only that, but if Nintendo successfully travels up the market, the PS3/360 could lose franchises. Stuff like Gears, MGS, and FF will be safe, but there may be more titles like Monster Hunter and DQ being plucked off the HD systems. This is why the meme, "hardcore games do not sell on the Wii" can be translated to "hardcore games must not sell on the Wii".

 

[Zerachiel]

I can't believe how many games some of you own. I buy maybe 4 or 5 a year and get a few for gifts...Mario Galaxy in november was the last game I bought.

5 games a year = $300

year of gamefly = $240

 

[2 Minutes Turkish]

Not too sure anymore.

I was looking at my Wii library the other day, then pulled out all my Gamecube games (I have about 23 GC and 11 Wii) and realised Nintendo's focus hasn't changed all that much really.

My Wii library is looking remarkably like my GC library with every release.

I just think Nintendo got their marketing hook right this time.

I mean the Gamecubes library was really just the staple Nintendo franchises with a sprinkling of 3rd party gems. Isn't the Wii's lineup pretty similar currently? Hopefully it can change, but at least currently the simlarities are eery to say the least.

 

[Slavik81]

5 games a year = $300

year of gamefly = $240

I think there are a few problems with your assertion.

 

[Neomoto]

I don't believe that there's a single poster on Gaf that only has a Wii.

I do. Xbox360 doesn't interest me at all (except for a couple of exceptions, some of which I can play on other platforms) and PS3 is too expensive (Europe) for my likings. I'll stick to Wii & DS for now, far more games than I have time to play anyway. (PS, last gen I had a PS2, Gamecube, GBA and played some PC games).

Just from my personal experience. I have 3 friends who are hardcore Nintendo nuts, you know the worst kind. They only ever had Nintendo consoles but this gen even they don't get enough play time out of their Wii so they got themselves PS3s.

Those really can not be the only Nintards that are unhappy with the Wii games situation.

What now? First party game output on Wii is significantly faster than on Gamecube. And there are the occasional third party games that are worth it on Wii, perhaps more than on GameCube in it's first 1.5 year. Perhaps their tastes have expanded instead of what you are implying? Because it would be false to say the Gamecube had the better library at this point in it's life (I loved the cube btw). And since the cube's life wasn't that long, it won't be long till Wii completely surpasses gamecube total quality library.

Neomoto: I remember reading one reasonable explanation given on these boards. The current userbase of the Wii is a bit behind the combined userbase of the PS3 and 360 (and PC I suppose).

Granted, the Wii should be cheaper to develop for (devkit costs, SD content = less focus on idiotic things like rendering acne)...

It is perplexing though. You would think there would be far more support than there has been thus far. I'm still hoping these organizations come to their senses, either through intelligent decision making or shareholder intervention.

Yes, that *could* be a possibility for some developers, but that doesn't explain to me why there isn't at least *also* a Wii version.

I mean, Activision just let a second developer make the Wii version of Guitar Hero III (and another one for the PS2 version). Why can't more developer do that? Sure, not all of them are as big as Activision but still (return of investment is easily covered back, development is cheap etc). The Wii version is tracking for more than 2 million units sold in America alone while it's the lesser version of the current gen versions. It's just behind the Xbox360 that already had an installed base of GH 2 players. At least they put a Wii version out alongside other versions (with effort). And they enjoyed terrific succes because of it (it's STILL in the top 10, after more than 6 months!). Now, Wii gets Guitar Hero: Aerosmith Expansion, Guitar Hero IV and Call of Duty 5. That's what I want to see more (companies at least not ignoring the system, Activision is putting their biggest franchises on Wii (newest Spiderman game too of course, Tony Hawk next game will be on Wii too I'd bet).

Also, it boggles the mind why there aren't ANY big games on Wii what-so-ever that Nintendo doesn't make (genre). Is it so hard to make a quality shooter? The 360, ps3 and pc gets dozens upon dozens of them, yet the Wii only has Call of Duty 5 (from a crap developer instead of the superior CoD4) and The Conduit (could have potential). Oh.. and Red Steel 2 :lol Yeah, I've given up on Ubisoft's Wii efforts, they are worse than a b-rated shovelware developer that only puts out licensend games and such (no they did not make No More Heroes). Make a RPG, FPS, Racer or whatever instead of another WiiFit rip-off (EA, Ubisoft on DS, Konami with Wii Fitness and Namco Bandai) or something. All Wii owners have in the known pipe-line is Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World, Speed Racer (licensend game but from a good dev). And FF:CC:CB if it's still in development (first Wii game to be announced lol). And that's seriously it when mentioning RPG's, Racers and FPS's on Wii (it's barely more than you can count on 1 hand for fuck sake). It boggles the mind and it's just fucking pathetic. I hope Monolith Soft 2 unknown Wii RPG's at least are still in the making (before they were bought by Nintendo).

 

[Innotech]

I don't believe that there's a single poster on Gaf that only has a Wii.

say what now?
This gen thats all I own right now and it will remain that way for a long time since someone let me borrow their 360 for a while. I also have a NES, N64, Genesis, Saturn, and Gamecube but this gen has only been one console.

 

[Cheez-It]

kame-sennin: That was a great post, thanks for taking the time to write it.

 

[bigmakstudios]

I can't believe how many games some of you own. I buy maybe 4 or 5 a year and get a few for gifts...Mario Galaxy in november was the last game I bought.

You don't need to buy games at full price. I'm able to get many more games by buying them during clearance or discount sales. I've gotten Bioshock for $20 at FYE, Gears of War for $25 at a local food store, a few Xbox games during a B1G1 used Xbox game sale at Gamestop, etc. >_>

 

[Scrubking]

Yet you lose out. You might as well hope for San Andreas Wii, cause you aint getting GTA IV. You wont get the size, the physics, and amount of people on the street that makes the city feel alive. You might as well not fucking bother.

SA was very big (3 whole cities), with lots of people (15 on screen at a time+cars), with plenty of life in the city and it was on the PS2. Oh yeah and it had some stuff that 4 doesn't have.

Outside of the HD visuals and the physics (which many claim are shit anyway), GTA on Wii would be your standard GTA just like any other depending solely on the effort put in by Rockstar.

(rolls eyes very hard)

 

[F#A#Oo]

kame-sennin you've had some excellent input in this thread...very refreshing to read and see.

 

[Neomoto]

SA was very big (3 whole cities), with lots of people (15 on screen at a time+cars), with plenty of life in the city and it was on the PS2. Oh yeah and it had some stuff that 4 doesn't have.

Outside of the HD visuals and the physics (which many claim are shit anyway), GTA on Wii would be your standard GTA just like any other depending solely on the effort put in by Rockstar.

(rolls eyes very hard)

Agree. I really don't understand why so many people seem to think that it's impossible. It would be GTA IV in SD, with changes "here and there" but the overal game wouldn't be that much different. Also, GTA IV had a enormous budget of 100 million (? I think, could be wrong but it would likely be enormous either way). A Wii version (ported down/exclusive whatever) would cost so, SO much less while still being a incredibly big budget title since the Wii isn't a HD system (they also already got the engine on Wii with Table Tennis). In my opinion, WHEN ea has bought them, they would be insane to not put some sort of GTA title out on Wii. It may or may not sell as much as GTA IV, but it would likely sell millions just the same.

 

[Gamecocks625]

kame-sennin you've had some excellent input in this thread...very refreshing to read and see.

Indeed.

 

[Innotech]

what I really dont understand is the notion that games THAT WORKED LAST GEN ON THE WEAKEST SYSTEM TO A VERY SUCCESSFUL DEGREE are suddenly impossible on the wii. This makes no sense at all and seems like a total copout by any developer retarded enough to use this excuse.

 

[WrikaWrek]

what I really dont understand is the notion that games THAT WORKED LAST GEN ON THE WEAKEST SYSTEM TO A VERY SUCCESSFUL DEGREE are suddenly impossible on the wii. This makes no sense at all and seems like a total copout by any developer retarded enough to use this excuse.

I guess people don't want to play those games yet again. I mean the a new generation came so i guess devs wanna try something a bit different.

 

[Innotech]

I guess people don't want to play those games yet again. I mean the a new generation came so i guess devs wanna try something a bit different.

so they make the same exact games, yet the want to try something different?
gotcha.

 

[donny2112]

2.85mm in 5 days is lower than expected?

Pachter: 3.3 million

Jesse (EEDAR): 3.5 million

theguy (professional consultant in the video game world): "I agree with Pachter but just about everyone agrees that 3.3 sounds <dang> close. All of the predictions I've been reading have reflected this figure, as well as MSFT's 2:1 estimation on the platform front."

TSE: 3.6 million

NeoGAF: 3.5 million


It was higher than you expected, but it was significantly lower than most everyone else's predictions.

This is why the meme, "hardcore games do not sell on the Wii" can be translated to "hardcore games must not sell on the Wii".

That's ... deep.

Nice work!

 

[WrikaWrek]

so they make the same exact games, yet the want to try something different?
gotcha.

What?

You just said why they don't make the same kind of games they made before on the Ps2 but on the Wii this time. And i said because they don't feel like doing the same thing.

How the hell do you jump to your reply from thaT?

 

[Cheez-It]

I guess people don't want to play those games yet again. I mean the a new generation came so i guess devs wanna try something a bit different.

Because GTAIV *slightly* scaled back for the Wii would be the same as the GTA titles on the PS2. I suppose it's just as ludicrous replying to someone who would come up with tripe like this.

*edit: On an aside, personally I would agree with the first statement, although I would say the same of GTAIV as it is.

 

[PataHikari]

I swear to god sometimes its like people have entirely retconned out what games they were playing 3 years ago and what was happening in them.

thisisneogafdude.gif

I guess people don't want to play those games yet again.

You could have fooled me

 

[AlteredBeast]

Is there a summary for the various sales littered across this thread and the interwebs?

 

[bigmakstudios]

You could have fooled me

*self-foreheadsmack*

 

[HK-47]

GTA IV is perfectly scalable to the Wii or PS2.

I really doubt they'll do it though.

That being said I'm amazed that there hasn't been a waggle port of the GTA III Trilogy. That's money on the table.

How about some original games instead of begging for ports?

Wii owners are so desperate to say that the Wii is the future, yet they kept begging for watered down ports of games made for the HDs. Stop flip flopping. You cant have everything.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

How about some original games instead of begging for ports?

Wii owners are so desperate to say that the Wii is the future, yet they kept begging for watered down ports of games made for the HDs. Stop flip flopping. You cant have everything.

Can be translated to: I don't want you to have anything. /cry

:lol

 

[Mike Works]

I don't believe that there's a single poster on Gaf that only has a Wii.

i only have a wii

granted i'm getting a PS3 next month, but that's only because i just got a HDTV, which i wasn't planning on getting at all this year

 

[POWERSPHERE]

What's it going to take for Wii to slow down?

Same thing as the DS in japan, when everyone already owns one.

 

[bigmakstudios]

Can be translated to: I don't want you to have anything. /cry

:lol

*sigh*
I'm pretty sure he owns a Wii.

 

[WrikaWrek]

You could have fooled me

RES4 had Wiimote function added, don't be so harsh.

Zing

And i'm out, it was a good show tonight, but it's getting too hot for me, and i don't have the guts to thread in such waters.

 

[Rancid Mildew]

How about some original games instead of begging for ports?

Wii owners are so desperate to say that the Wii is the future, yet they kept begging for watered down ports of games made for the HDs. Stop flip flopping. You cant have everything.

He's right though perhaps a bit too abrasive.

I'm not sure why anyone would want Wii ports of the HD system's marquis titles (unless, of course, you don't have the means to play them otherwise). They would very likely be inferior in every way possible. The best Wii titles are the system exclusives, the ones that are built by paying attention to the technological limits and the controller.

 

[HK-47]

Can be translated to: I don't want you to have anything. /cry

:lol

You idiot, I have a Wii, I'm in pretty much any Nintendo game thread. Stop typing and go sit in a corner if you think I'm some Wii hater. I'm a whiney fantard hater.

I'm telling the reality of the situation. If you spend all your time begging for HD ports, you'll end up very sad at the results. You're watering down the original vision! Why would you want that? These game were not made for waggle and many wouldnt be able to use waggle in a meaningful way. You're settling for scraps of good games

 

[Man God]

How about some original games instead of begging for ports?

Wii owners are so desperate to say that the Wii is the future, yet they kept begging for watered down ports of games made for the HDs. Stop flip flopping. You cant have everything.

I couldn't care less about playing the games, I had them all on PC when they came out. I'm just surprised why T2 never joined in when Godfather and Scarface were ported. It would have been free money.

I already have everything I need from the DS, more or less. The Wii is just gravy.

 

[HK-47]

I couldn't care less about playing the games, I had them all on PC when they came out. I'm just surprised why T2 never joined in when Godfather and Scarface were ported. It would have been free money.

I already have everything I need from the DS, more or less. The Wii is just gravy.

But even Godfather, which I hear has decent waggle controls, is just a PS2 game with them tacked on. You should want new experiences, cause isnt that the mantra of the Wii?

 

[Count Dookkake]

He's right though perhaps a bit too abrasive.

I'm not sure why anyone would want Wii ports of the HD system's marquis titles (unless, of course, you don't have the means to play them otherwise). They would very likely be inferior in every way possible. The best Wii titles are the system exclusives, the ones that are built by paying attention to the technological limits and the controller.

Nice word choice, but you mean marquee.

 

[Man God]

But even Godfather, which I hear has decent waggle controls, is just a PS2 game with them tacked on. You should want new experiences, cause isnt that the mantra of the Wii?

Good games is all I care about. Doesn't matter if it's 30 years old or brand spanking new. Pac Man CE or Space Invaders Extreme are good examples of this, as is RE4 Wii.

Controls or other small twists can really liven up old games. That in itself is a new experience.

Same with VC titles or old titles on XBLA or PSN. If it's new to you, it's new.

 

[Pachael]

Because GTAIV *slightly* scaled back for the Wii would be the same as the GTA titles on the PS2. I suppose it's just as ludicrous replying to someone who would come up with tripe like this.

*edit: On an aside, personally I would agree with the first statement, although I would say the same of GTAIV as it is.

I've always wanted GTA to come out for the Wii just to see the reaction to the minigames, like poledancing with the wiimote.

 

[beef3483]

You don't even seem to know what you're arguing here.

Lighting, animation, charatcer detail, ragdoll physics are aesthetic changes, not gameplay changes.

The new style of lockons, the cover system and the new police 'sphere of influence' are gameplay changes, and they absolutely do not require the technical horsepower of HD consoles to have occurred.

In absolute gameplay terms, I haven't seen anything in GTA4 that not only would be impossible on a Wii, but wasn't already done in previous GTAs.

That's not saying it's a bad game - I'm still enjoying it - but you're deluding yourself if you really think that in terms of gameplay it does anything that wasn't possible in 'last gen'.

Which I guess is really where HD consoles are failing on sales terms - I can count on the fingers of one hand games which have core gameplay mechanics I do not think would have been possible on a last gen console.

As long as the only improvements over the games people were playing on a PS2 are purely aesthetic, the case arguing for HD consoles over a Wii by anyone except graphics whores becomes harder outside of the bitter tears about 'casuals killing games' displayed in this thread.

One of the smartest posts in this thread.