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Official Heavenly Sword Thread - Heaven is under our feet as well as over our heads
- Thread starter XHitoshuraX
- Start date
Jibber Hack
Member
Mesijs said:
I think the problem my be that the characters are cliche more than anything. We've seen them before, witless dimwits, sexy assassins, bloodthirsty generals, and a king that relies on fools. Perhaps it's the familiarity with these archetypes in all media that dampens the affair for some.
I would like for someone who is critical of the performances to please point out specific scenes in other games that do what they do better than Heavenly Sword. I felt tension when Kai was in danger, I felt pride and confidence when Shen and Nariko set aside the past and face the oncoming danger, I felt humor when the villains interacted with each other and pity for Roach and having to fight him. These were not just voice actors, but performers and they portray emotion. And I would not just say that it sets a standard for action games, but sets a standard for the medium. I don't think that the larger than life characters will work in every game (see Uncharted's more natural VA), but the emphasis of design sets an example for other devs that want to tell a story.
I for one, love the acting in this game. The characters seem more real than other games I've played. I love the generals. They are dumb, but there's something fascinating about them. It's like watching the Mouth of Sauron in Return of the King. That guy is disgusting but you want to keep watching it talk.
XHitoshuraX said:
No you can't assume that. I can distinguish good actors from bad ones. They do their job ok, but they do have a stupid role.
Seriously, these are the BAD GUYS they need to represent. And they make dumb jokes to each other. And Bohan has some kind of giant, disabled son. They don't appear to me as terrifying, evil persons. More like caricatures, like persons you can't take serious at all. When fighting a bad guy, I want to think: "Wow, that guy scares the hell out of me." I don't want to think: "What a dumb, not-funny character."
If you say the voices are great: yes, they are. The motion-capturing and lip-sync also. The pure quality of speaking and the choreography of the cutscenes also. But all the acting is way too much B-movie like in the very negative sense of the word. A game that wants to be taken seriously shouldn't have a final boss that throws a cup at his son after he calls him daddy.
And yes, it's all my opinion and maybe you do actually like it.
I DO appreciate voice acting in games. For example, the voice acting in Mafia is great. In all the GTA's it's also great. In almost every game with quality voice acting I've played so far, the characters act like you want them to act in the game. In Heavenly Sword they feel totally off.
Pristine_Condition
Member
AltogetherAndrews said:
I disagree. I liked the acting. A lot.
Looks like Bohan agrees with me...
Fact is, that ever since Sony preached the capabilities of its much-vaunted PlayStation 2 "Emotion Engine", gamers have been analyzing everything that comes down the pipeline to see if it meets that over-hyped expectation.
All too often, the videogames continue to fail that test. But every once in a while, a title comes along that goes beyond ordinary expectations, and actually accomplishes the "Emotion" goal.
For me personally, only 2 games have ever really reached such heights. ICO and now Heavenly Sword. ICO was much more subversive in its process, while Heavenly Sword puts it all out there for everyone to see. It's loud, it's blatant, but there's no denying its effectiveness.
You can bitch and moan all you like about the actors hamming it up, but the fact is, whether you approve of the methodology or not, these characters are conveying genuine emotion, a rare feat for any character created in realtime.
All too often, the videogames continue to fail that test. But every once in a while, a title comes along that goes beyond ordinary expectations, and actually accomplishes the "Emotion" goal.
For me personally, only 2 games have ever really reached such heights. ICO and now Heavenly Sword. ICO was much more subversive in its process, while Heavenly Sword puts it all out there for everyone to see. It's loud, it's blatant, but there's no denying its effectiveness.
You can bitch and moan all you like about the actors hamming it up, but the fact is, whether you approve of the methodology or not, these characters are conveying genuine emotion, a rare feat for any character created in realtime.
Jibber Hack
Member
Mesijs said:
I was thinking about this before, when I was talking about cliches. Perhaps it's more that they don't act in the fashion that you expect that is the problem. That's not a bad thing. And if you really think about it, the story is not that complicated. The characters are not masterminds and their methods are not complex and deeply woven. They fit the setting pretty well.
Jibber Hack said:
Good post.
I didn't like the interaction between Shen and Nariko. It was laughable cliché. The thing that the father was always a warrior and not a father to the child, I can't take it seriously anymore. I did not feel humour at all when the villains interacted, because I don't want them to make stupid jokes. I want them to opress Nariko's clan, slay innocent people and fear the hell out of me. The jokes weren't even funny to me and, again, they just felt as they didn't fit into the game. You can't make a dramatic, 'emotional' game while putting these characters in. Well, you can, but I can't take it seriously as a dramatic plot.
It's just everything you see in bad movies, when people are acting way too overemotinal and fake, and at other moments there are stupid humorous parts that do not fit into the game at all.
Yes, I can give examples of acting where a game touched me. In the game Mafia (everybody, play the PC-version), when
Paulie is shot in his house
have to shoot Sam at the end
gets shot dead in front of you
SlasherJPC
Banned
I still say Heavenly Sword has some of the best acting in a game... period!
SlasherJPC
Banned
Mesijs said:
First off you saying the voice acting in all the GTA's is great
, nullifies anything remotely serious you have to say concerning voice acting. I don't know about you but I thought these characters acted just fine for what they were portraying. You say that you like games where characters act like you want them to act? So you what did you want? Kai to act more mature? Nariko to not get pissed off at her father? Bohan to be totally evil and just ruthless with no humorous overtones? Ok...what i like best about heavenly sword's 'performance capture' are all the little incidental gestures -- bohan drumming on his codpiece, kai putting her fingers up when she's reminded to go to the west tower, nariko and shen maintaining their handclasp for a moment as they walk away. good stuff, and probably the result of putting an actor in charge of the process
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
They have probably realized early on that it will be a lot more effective if their characters overreact a bit. The exact same reason actors overreact in theater, you can see their expressions better, is the reason characters look more believable and human in this game, despite their stylized look.
I don't agree with this 100%, Grim Fandango and Monkey Island games were good in this regard, I think performances in MGS3 were quite good at times. Scene with Volgin punching Snake is a notable example. But Ico, SotC and now HS are probably the pinnacle in this sense. Uncharted, and later MGS4, have quite a lot to live up to as they too aim to achieve this goal as well.steve said:
Tieno
Member
I like the facial acting and some of the voice acting (mainly Nariko and Kai, villans are a bit too much especially Grey Fox). Thing is, such overly dramatic acting is exhausting for me. I think they realised they had some cool shit and went a bit too crazy with it sometimes. Other times it's just spot on.
Belfast said:
No, you don't understand what I mean. Of course humour can create emotion, but not the humour in Heavenly Sword. Not at all. The humour is totally out of place in this game. I cannot even imagine that the humour in Heavenly Sword creates emotion.
First off you saying the voice acting in all the GTA's is great , nullifies anything remotely serious you have to say concerning voice acting.
Don't act like you have THE definite opinion... The voice acting in GTA is exactly how it should be. The characters they created are acted masterfully. Heavenly Sword doesn't know what characters it wants to create. Do they want an involving, emotional story? Do they want clichés all over the place? Do they want to make some stupid jokes? There isn't any coherence in the way the actors act. The script is just... bad.
And you're mentioning the wrong things. Nariko is OK, but the relation-with-her-father thing is stupid and worked out poorly. Kai is great. Bohans sidekicks and himself are out of place. Maybe they could have used humour, but not in the way it is now. It's just childish jokes to each other, nothing more and nothing less. If that creates emotion, that's a joke to me.
I think people are mixing things up a bit. GTA had horrid animatic acting...however, the excellent voice acting prevailed over the animation and delivered some great stuff.
HS has great acting all around...definitely the best cinematic experience I've ever had.
HS has great acting all around...definitely the best cinematic experience I've ever had.
One thing I wished they added to the game - the ability for Kai to
That combined with
way she walks would've been priceless.
I also loved how as the game progressed Nariko
Heavenly Sword may be one of those games where it's just as absolutely fascinating to watch as it is to play.
do a cartwheel on command
the weird (but awesome)
I also loved how as the game progressed Nariko
gets more and more desperate and frantic in purgatory as the chapters unfolded.
Heavenly Sword may be one of those games where it's just as absolutely fascinating to watch as it is to play.
SlasherJPC
Banned
Mesijs said:
All I know is you have mentioned the GTA games and a gta type game "mafia" as your only references to quality voice acting. There is much better va to mention then these games. I don't pretend to be "THE" definite opinion, but your heavly outnumbered on this view of Heavenly Sword.Also, what if the developers were going exactly for that emotional/humorous/extravagance with their story and characters. The point is, they made it exactly how they wanted to make it.
At moments the story was epic ( Nariko about to go against thousands), funny (Numerous Kai , Bohan/the gang moments), and moving(Don't tell me that the scene before that one boss battle didn't have you gasping). They obviously made all bad guys like they did for a reason. They couldnt have NOT known what feeling there were going for.
XHitoshuraX
Banned
Mesijs said:
I was reviewing your posts and I think I figured out whats bothered me the most. You are holding the narrative to some sort of plot you've seemed to create. You cannot say "oh the shouldn't have had humor, the characters aren't badass enough."
This was the intention from the very beginning. This game tells a powerful story but that doesn't mean it has to be a nonstop bereavement of specific character portrayal. I can't believe people are saying Bohan was Clichéd.
You know what WOULD have been cliché? If he was another big, brooding completely evil entity. He was human, he had emotions. And I'm sorry, the fact that you say HS has a bad script...please name me a game, besides an f-bomb heavy gore a thon that has a better written script.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Bohan wouldn't be half the badass he is without his humorous interruptions. He's *exactly* the kind of evil king that could actually exist, and you need not look any further in real history than Stalin to see this.
Pure-evil kings and rulers often exist in cartoons and some movies, but that doesn't make those characters any more believable or realistic.
Pure-evil kings and rulers often exist in cartoons and some movies, but that doesn't make those characters any more believable or realistic.
SlasherJPC
Banned
XHitoshuraX said:
This is exactly what I was getting at. They created the game and characters the way they wanted and its obvious that alot of care went into the characters created and their emotions. If he wants to play a game with a shitty script/story with typical characters, play Stranglehold (not hating but its a good example. Love the action in that game)
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced they based that guy off of Stalin, actually. If you're familiar with Stalin's quotes, it's the same kind of brooding evil told through humorous exposition, kind of thing.drohne said:
As far as I rememeber, Saddam was a bit like that as well, but Stalin is a lot more known for his quotes.
Just to list some:
"A single death is a tragedy, million deaths is a statistic"
"Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem"
"Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach"
*Edit* How could I forget Kim Jong-Il!
Pristine_Condition
Member
Marconelly said:
Exactly.
If you wrote a piece of fiction with a character like Kim Jong-Il in it, everyone would say it was too over-the-top. Nobody would believe a man like that could really exist, much less rule a country.
Sometimes truth is way stranger than fiction.
Marconelly said:
And some of the worst platforming. I'm sorry but I think the puzzles in GOW and platforming paled in comparison to all of the recent Prince of Persias.
As for the dramatic performances - I really do get the feeling that people want performances and scripts in games to act to the cliches and forms that are created in Hollywood. Why?
Why can't we have a game which forms some of the best character acting to ever grace anyones screens - from games to films. There is not enough character acting in the film world - and Heavenly Sword plays and creates something very magical in its performance - something we've been missing for years. Gollum was one character that brought this to the cinema, and the characters in Heavenly Sword take it a step further.
This is one direction for game acting - and i believe it's a good one. Saying it's a negative just because it doesn't meet some preconceived goal is bad. I really think the argument is lost - stating you prefer an understated script with "realistic" acting is fine - but saying that not having this is a failure, is over the top.
Studying film in my degree, acting in both theatre and film, I think the performances and script in Heavenly Sword is something to praise, and a God send in the way both the film and gaming industry are going at the moment.
ps. Mesijs, it sounds like they were the perfect villans for you, since they pissed you off so much you must have wanted to beat the shit. Why do villains have to be evil?
Mesijs said:
Mesijs, I can agree with you that Shen and Nariko's relationship is over-stressed, but the villians in HS are convincing to me. Have you killed Flying Fox ? If so, you should know these guys are vicious (What he did to Kai).
They are freaks of nature (or perhaps self-made). I am not sure if you can compare them with mafias who are very often motivated by orders and money. So there is really no need to justify their actions further.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Platforming, yeah, I agree. But I thought puzzles in GoW2 were at worst the same and usually better than puzzles in at least first two new PoP games (didn't play the third one beyond ~30min mark), and some of the puzzles in first PoP were actually pretty good (I was comparing with NG, don't forget). The one in GoW2 where you have to reach Theseus, or with the corpse and the water stream, or where you reverse the beams from the statue eyes, or the eyes on Colossus, were really memorable.deepbrown said:
Belfast said:
I'm with the guy you quoted. While I enjoyed the humor a lot and wouldn't do without it, I definitely felt like it was out of place. You know why? Because the story they were going for had a serious tone. Bohan was an incredibly evil dude and he didn't really come across as that. He just gave me vibes of incompetent leader with even more incompetent lackies. I'm glad they added humor for the fact that I didn't think the story was that great anyways. Way too stereotypical with a twist or two here and there. What makes me remember it is the comedy elements but by the games end, I didn't feel like I just played through a serious experience. It was a lot more light hearted than what I was expecting.
XHitoshuraX
Banned
Core407 said:
Whiptail's
death was sad...
Dante said:
Well, the thing is that Bohan's pretty much got a hard-on for Nariko. This plays out in several scenes where he's very obviously conflicted about how he feels towards her. Not that he "loves" her or anything, but for a lack of better words he'd "tap that" if only she wasn't so dedicated to fucking up his plans. He finds lust in his hatred. I think it's that kind of complexity that makes Bohan such a great character.