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[Terra Firma]

^ got a question for you. How can you argue that Islam allows you to judge people, when entire verses were revealed in the Qu'ran, admonishing certain people in Medinah for judging and saying things about Aisha?

We are allowed to judge based on hard evidence, not on the claims of the hypocrites. When the pure wife of the Prophet PBUH was insulted and attacked by the hypocrites of Makkah, why do you think she wasn't punished? That is because there was no hard evidence against her. The only "evidence" was that she had arrived in Madinah with a man holding her camel after she had been mistakenly left behind by the caravan.

 

[Terra Firma]

You are insulting the beliefs of those who don't follow your particular medieval, draconian demands. Whose respect are you worthy of?

Whose beliefs have I insulted here?

I'm so glad people like this are inevitably losing their grasp on society and dying out. It's just a matter of waiting out the clock. The world as a whole will not miss you.

You must have Islam confused with Christianity.

 

[Canis lupus]

Cool, the next bayram is coming up!

 

[Grim1ock]

The overwhelming majority of the human species will not enter paradise as a consequence of culture and geography. God's will!

Actually that's more christian way of thinking. where everyone is destined to hell unless they accept jesus christ as their personal saviour who died for them.

In islam those poor tribesmen in africa who has never heard of God or muhammed pbuh or abraham or moses or jesus shall be judged differently

 

[LaserBuddha]

Actually that's more christian way of thinking. where everyone is destined to hell unless they accept jesus christ as their personal saviour who died for them.

In islam those poor tribesmen in africa who has never heard of God or muhammed pbuh or abraham or moses or jesus shall be judged differently

What about all of those who have heard of Muhammad and still don't accept Islam? The vast majority of them believe what they believe because of where and to who they were born, just like the vast majority of Muslims. Aside from those factors, the choice of one holy scripture over another is rather arbitrary.

You must have Islam confused with Christianity.

Religious fundamentalism as a whole is on borrowed time. It may come on strong right now as it senses its own demise, but the societies of the world are losing patience. More progressive models of Islam and other religions that can coexist with their neighbors ideologically will prosper for much longer.

 

[Salih]

Cool, the next bayram is coming up!

wait, aren't you the one who doesn't fast and still consider himself a muslim? you cleary giving me a hard time but no panic - after todays discussion i don't wanna judge anyone anytime soon

well, as far as i know someone who believes in the shahada is a muslim, right? Doesn't matter if he prays, fasts or not. But still he has to face the punishment for not doing these ibadahs.

 

[Terra Firma]

We have to judge, but nowhere does that require getting on a high horse and aggressively deriding someone else.

You just did a 180. Being on a "high horse" would involve me saying I'm free of sin or a perfect human. I'm far from it. But in Islam, we have the idea of speaking against evil and forbidding it - nahi anil munkar. If a person is speaking evil, we have the right to judge the person as evil.

Again juding someone's actions and words (which is a necessary component of having firm values) has nothing to do with assuming they are ignorant, deriding their upbringing, questioning their moral fiber, and making assumptions about their reasoning and treating it as fact ALL of which you did in your first post to Kozak.

"Ignorance" is not an insult. It means not knowing something. Kozak is ignorant of the fundamentals of Islam - and I get that from his post. Also, where did I insult someone's upbringing? Is it not obvious that nurture plays a part in a person's character and beliefs? A person born into the house of a pious Muslim has a higher chance of being a pious Muslim. A person born into the house of a lax Muslim has a higher chance of leaving Islam altogether. These are observable facts.

If I expect them to be respect me and if I expect to be able to have a reasonable conversation with them and as long as they're not trolling? Yes I do. And Kozak was far from trolling.

Then explain his posts where he posted those ridiculous images where he equated Islam with those on the fringe? His post could easily have been mistaken with the drivel posted on anti-Islamic websites.

You know you're not following the example of the Prophet when he was being disrespected in Mecca and then later when he signed a peace treaty with the people who insulted him more than anyone else.

Once more, you're confusing issues.

If Kozak was insulting me, I couldn't care less. But as soon as insults are hurled at the religion, the Prophet PBUH, or towards Allah, no Muslim would do as you're suggesting. The Prophet PBUH did not harm those who harmed him personally but he did fight against those who insulted either Islam/Muslims in general. Also, when in Madinah, the companions of the Prophet PBUH were willing to kill someone who so much as suggested an insult to the Prophet PBUH until the Prophet PBUH himself would stop them from doing so.

Are you seriously suggesting Muslims respect people who insult our religion?

 

[Terra Firma]

Religious fundamentalism as a whole is on borrowed time. It may come on strong right now as it senses its own demise, but the societies of the world are losing patience. More progressive models of Islam and other religions that can coexist with their neighbors ideologically will prosper for much longer.

Nope. Baseless generalizations again. The Arab spring is testament to the contrary.

Here's the thing: Christians do not believe the Bible to be a direct word of God (only "inspired" word) and thus pick and choose what to follow. Muslims, on the other hand, do not, and we accept the entirety of the Qur'an to be the inerrant word of God - and we believe in all of it. Even if a Muslim drinks alcohol, he will concede that it is a sin. It is this belief that grants entrance to paradise.

And you have to get out of your shell more. Even Hindu fundamentalism is on the rise in India. Let's not forget about the Buddhist fundamentalism in Myanmar.

 

[Stridone]

No choice during birth indeed but you make your own choices when you grow up.

I am in my late twenties and i can choose to walk away from islam if i choose to and no one would stop me from doing so.

Look be happy with yourself. You clearly do not need God. So there is no point in lecturing me or others on what God should or shouldnt do

You think you can "choose" to walk away from something that you have been brainwashed with your whole life. That's cute. Oh wait, you weren't brainwashed, you just decided to choose islam over a million other religions!

This lack of rational thought is why discussion between religious and non-religious people is pretty much pointless.

 

[Grim1ock]

What about all of those who have heard of Muhammad and still don't accept Islam? The vast majority of them believe what they believe because of where and to who they were born, just like the vast majority of Muslims. Aside from those factors, the choice of one holy scripture over another is rather arbitrary.



Religious fundamentalism as a whole is on borrowed time. It may come on strong right now as it senses its own demise, but the societies of the world are losing patience. More progressive models of Islam and other religions that can coexist with their neighbors ideologically will prosper for much longer.

why ask a question you know the answer to very well?

By progressive islam i take it you mean a type of islam that is more acceptable to you. A type in line with your expectations. If you are expecting an islam which compromises on it's fundamental principles then Unfortunately i have some news you wont like.

You think you can "choose" to walk away from something that you have been brainwashed with your whole life. That's cute. Oh wait, you weren't brainwashed, you just decided to choose islam over a million other religions!

This lack of rational thought is why discussion between religious and non-religious people is pretty much pointless.

Well bravo! I said the very same thing a while back. It's pointless having a go at the Quran when you don't believe in God.

As for choosing other religions. Well what other options are there.

Jews. Don't believe in the messiah. Big problem there.
Christianity. They believe in the messiah but went to the other extreme by declaring him to be God. Now we have three gods instead of one.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Hey guys. If it's not too much to ask, could someone give me the rundown on Sufism? I tried to read the Wiki article on it but just got overwhelmed with information (which is often the case when you go to Wiki for info and dive in blind). Would it be possible for one of you chaps to give me a more digestible overview?

Thanks.

 

[Grim1ock]

Hey guys. If it's not too much to ask, could someone give me the rundown on Sufism? I tried to read the Wiki article on it but just got overwhelmed with information (which is often the case when you go to Wiki for info and dive in blind). Would it be possible for one of you chaps to give me a more digestible overview?

Thanks.

Basically sufism boils down to the same thing as shias and their imams.

You apparently the muslim cannot have a direct access to God himself. You need a third party to make your prayers and duas heard. That's where the sufi saint steps in or the shia imam.

Ofcourse it begs the question. When God tells you in surah 40 and ayah number 60 to call upon him why would you wish for an intermediatery?

Ofcourse you have other stuff like dancing and singing which i find odd

 

[Salih]

You apparently the muslim cannot have a direct access to God himself. You need a third party to make your prayers and duas heard. That's where the sufi saint steps in or the shia imam.

You are right, but doesn't that only apply to the Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi order and maybe to some other sufi orders too? Or does all sufi orders have these 'intermediators'?

 

[Ashes]

File On 4 Radio 4, 8pm Back in July, a 14-minute anti-Islam film was uploaded to YouTube, sparking a wave of violent protests throughout the Muslim world.
More than 50 people died and the protests also led to a fatwa calling for the death of the film's director.
In the wake of these actions, there are growing reports of the Salafist movement - a militant group of Sunni Muslims - being responsible for turning the marches violent.
Jenny Cunliffe looks at the risk this movement poses to democracy and security in the Arab Spring nations.

.

 

[Grim1ock]

You are right, but doesn't that only apply to the Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi order and maybe to some other sufi orders too? Or does all sufi orders have these 'intermediators'?

they generally all have these saint to the best of my knowledge

 

[Salih]

they generally all have these saint to the best of my knowledge

If i think about sufism i think about Imam al-Ghazali, who was one of the smartest man ever alive. He was a Sufi but he didn't had a saint. Big part of his life he lived alone and was on a journey.

Basically he gives attention to the spirituality in Islam and imho that is what sufism is about. Islam is not only about Dos and Don'ts but also about what is in your heart/soul.
IMHO to understand the real understanding behind sufism you need to read The Alchemy of Happiness by Imam al-Ghazali:
http://majalla.org/books/2005/The-Alchemy-of-Happiness.pdf

spirituality starts with self-knowledge. Because without self-knowledge you could never be aware of God and therefore never will find true happiness in your life:

Knowledge of self is the key to the knowledge of God, according to the saying: "He who knows himself knows God," [1] and, as it is written in the Koran, "We will show them Our signs in the world and in themselves, that the truth may be manifest to them." Now nothing is nearer to thee than thyself, and if thou knowest not thyself how canst thou know anything else? If thou sayest "I know myself," meaning thy outward shape, body, face, limbs, and so forth, such knowledge can never be a key to the knowledge of God. Nor, if thy knowledge as to that which is within only extends so far, that when thou art hungry thou eatest, and when thou art angry thou attackest someone, wilt thou progress any further in this path, for the beasts are thy partners in this? But real self-knowledge consists in knowing the following things: What art thou in thyself, and from whence hast thou come? Whither art thou going, and for what purpose hast thou come to tarry here awhile, and in what does thy real happiness and misery consist? Some of thy attributes are those of animals, some of devils, and some of angels, and thou hast to find out to which of these attributes are accidental and which essential. Till thou knowest this, thou canst not find out where thy real happiness lies.

such an amazing book. It really doesn't matter if you are a muslim or not. This book in parts is even used alot by christian priests because in the end we are very similiar in these spiritual things.

Big group of the sufi orders todays and the sufis back then give to much attention to spirituality and leave the ibadahs out. Imam al'Ghazali was not fond of that. You have to find the middle between your duties as a muslim and the process of the 'purification of the heart' (said by Hamza Yusuf).

 

[Ashes]

You think you can "choose" to walk away from something that you have been brainwashed with your whole life. That's cute. Oh wait, you weren't brainwashed, you just decided to choose islam over a million other religions!

This lack of rational thought is why discussion between religious and non-religious people is pretty much pointless.

So wait you're an athiest?

Wait till you here other athiests talk about religion. They're not exactly as polite as the appalling lack of respect apparently been shown by the Qur'an.

 

[Grim1ock]

If i think about sufism i think about Imam al-Ghazali, who was one of the smartest man ever alive. He was a Sufi but he didn't had a saint. Big part of his life he lived alone and was on a journey.

Basically he gives attention to the spirituality in Islam and imho that is what sufism is about. Islam is not only about Dos and Don'ts but also about what is in your heart/soul.
IMHO to understand the real understanding behind sufism you need to read The Alchemy of Happiness by Imam al-Ghazali:
http://majalla.org/books/2005/The-Alchemy-of-Happiness.pdf

spirituality starts with self-knowledge. Because without self-knowledge you could never be aware of God and therefore never will find true happiness in your life:



such an amazing book. It really doesn't matter if you are a muslim or not. This book in parts is even used alot by christian priests because in the end we are very similiar in these spiritual things.

I don't get it. Are you saying that we are spiritually bankrupt? You do realise that your salah is inherently worthless without your heart and soul in it. Your duas are meaningless as well.

The problem with sufism is that they are an innovation in religion. all these concepts of spirituality which already do exist in islam way before sufism arrived are just besides the point.

what did God say in chapter 5 ayah number 3. Then look at ghazali and the rest of sufis and ask them this. Was muhammed Pbuh a sufi? were the sahaba sufis? you can go on and on.

Sufism is just innovation nothing more nothing less

 

[Salih]

I don't get it. Are you saying that we are spiritually bankrupt? You do realise that your salah is inherently worthless without your heart and soul in it. Your duas are meaningless as well.

Well, who is 'we'? and yes, imho a lot of people and even some of the muslims are spiritually bankrupt in these days. I don't wanna go in this whole 'judging thing' again, but f.ex. people still can't understand the importance in the difference between dunya and akhira. People like al-Ghazali make that clear to those people. He is a reminder, nothing more.

edit: another example: a huge amount of people in muslim countries still watch pornography. there is a statistic out there. for me these people are spiritually bankrupt. These people can't even control their bodies. Isn't that sickening?

The problem with sufism is that they are an innovation in religion. all these concepts of spirituality which already do exist in islam way before sufism arrived are just besides the point.

Of course it is bidah. You don't need to tell me that. We are not sufis, not shias, not salafis, not sunnis - we are muslims. Done. But as i said - al-Ghazali gives _attention_ to spirituality in Islam. Unfortunately many people these days ignore this important facette in Islam.

We shouldn't have our own sheiks, not other books and so on. Everyone for himself on the Day of Judgement. No sheik will help you out, like many Sufis claim.

Maybe they call themselves Sufis, Shias, Wahabis and whatnot - but some facettes of Qur'an and Sunnah they understand better than other groups. These people are muslims too, they believe in God, in the prophet Muhammed (saw) and in the afterlife. The 'micro management' is up to them. We shouldn't completely ignore them. of course there is stuff that al-Ghazali says i am not agreeing with (like doing Dhikr with your heart for a long time to enter a stage that resembles the stage of the prophets - or something like that). But at the end we live by Qur'an and Sunnah and our life goal is trying to understand it in the best way we can. We can learn to understand our deen better if you listen to other people as long as they always use Qur'an and Sunnah as the ultimate source. These people are your ummah.

Allah knows best.

 

[Terra Firma]

Sufism - or tasawwuf to be exact - is a science in Islam, just how Fiqh is a science in Islam, just how 'aqeedah is a science in Islam.

The problem is, just how there are deviants in Fiqh who make the halaal into haraam and the haraam into halaal, there are also deviants in 'aqeedah, such as the Mu'tazilah and the Khawaarij, and in tasawwuf, such as the Naqshbandi Haqqanis.

And yes, Sufis existed amongst at least the tabi' tabi'een, which are part of the three generations. The reason tasawwuf exists is to make our hearts more open to adhering to the laws of Islam. Real tasawwuf is bound by the shari'ah. Any transgressions, any innovations are not allowed. Those who innovate are leading people to hellfire.

For example, you'll see some Sufis who prance around like idiots and they'll justify it by misquoting and misunderstanding ahadeeth (the hadeeth of the Abyssinians who were engaged in military exercise, for example). Some Sufis will justify using music as part of ibaadah. Some so-called Sufis will do even worse things, such as circumambulating around graves and even prostrating to them.

But the thing is, you don't need to be a Sufi to commit all these sins. A non-Sufi can just as well commit these sins and call them ibaadah. The common thread between a non-Sufi and a Sufi who commits these sins is lack of knowledge and ignorance of the deen.

Junaid al-Baghdadi is a well-known Sufi and so is Abd-al-Qadir al-Jilaani, but both are accepted as great personalities of the Muslim ummah.

Tasawwuf is something that emerged out of necessity. If you notice, in true tasawwuf, all actions are just extensions of the sunnah. For example, many true Sufis perform silent dhikr and do not entertain group chanting. Even those true Sufis that do have group chanting do not say that there is any extra reward for doing so.

What this misunderstanding of tasawwuf stems from is a misunderstanding of what is bid'ah. You cannot say that if a person does a new action in Islam then he is automatically committing bid'ah. Otherwise, teaching Qur'an online or even at madrassahs is a "bid'ah" since the sahabas and the Prophet PBUH never had madrassas. What would be a bid'ah is if a person claimed special rewards for learning the Qur'an at a madrassah over studying Qur'an individually. Similarly, if a Sufi claims that there are extra rewards for chanting loudly over doing silent dhikr, then that would be bid'ah.

 

[Stridone]

As for choosing other religions. Well what other options are there.

Jews. Don't believe in the messiah. Big problem there.
Christianity. They believe in the messiah but went to the other extreme by declaring him to be God. Now we have three gods instead of one.

Yes, there are only three religions on earth.

 

[Ashes]

Hypocrite.

edit: or should I say: Oh the irony...

 

[Instigator]

What's Muslim Gaf take on this Yemeni work of art? Brlliant? OK? Bad? Provocative?

 

[F#A#Oo]

What's Muslim Gaf take on this Yemeni work of art? Brlliant? OK? Bad? Provocative?

I don't get it...

Is it suppose to mean that if you totally cover yourself , you completely obscure yourself?

 

[Ashes]

Suppose it's to symbolise an erosion of existence. Though I'm not sure which way the criticism goes.

 

[Vivalaraza]

What's Muslim Gaf take on this Yemeni work of art? Brlliant? OK? Bad? Provocative?

That is very interesting.

IMO not provocative at all.

Thought provoking for sure however. Going to share with fellow Muslims and see what they think.

 

[Kisaya]

What's Muslim Gaf take on this Yemeni work of art? Brlliant? OK? Bad? Provocative?

It's OK, but I get the point that it's making. Reminds me why I hate going to Yemen.

 

[Ashes]

It's OK, but I get the point that it's making. Reminds me why I hate going to Yemen.

And why is that exactly?

 

[Kisaya]

And why is that exactly?

I can't dress like the first picture without being harassed, so I end up dressing like the 4th picture. It's very common to see women dress like the 7th picture though, even unmarried women (and the fucking gloves, so ridiculous).

I just hate the abayah. Not cute at all :l

 

[Ashes]

I can't dress like the first picture without being harassed, so I end up dressing like the 4th picture. It's very common to see women dress like the 7th picture though, even unmarried women (and the fucking gloves, so ridiculous).

I just hate the abayah. Not cute at all :l

ah I see. Is that the general public or more of the family/close relations vibe/peer pressure?

By that I mean would you get dirty looks just out and about shopping for instance?

 

[BocoDragon]

What's Muslim Gaf take on this Yemeni work of art? Brlliant? OK? Bad? Provocative?

It's missing the one where it's ok to show hair.

 

[Kyzer]

So then are Musilims worshipping Yahweh?

 

[Kisaya]

ah I see. Is that the general public or more of the family/close relations vibe/peer pressure?

By that I mean would you get dirty looks just out and about shopping for instance?

General public.

Dirty looks along with verbal insults. It really doesn't matter what you wear at all, unless you're accompanied with a man who will talk back/intimidate them, you're gonna get a whole bunch of bullshit walking around in the streets of Yemen.

 

[Ashes]

So then are Musilims worshipping Yahweh?

Not exactly.

General public.

Dirty looks along with verbal insults. It really doesn't matter what you wear at all, unless you're accompanied with a man who will talk back/intimidate them, you're gonna get a whole bunch of bullshit walking around in the streets of Yemen.

Kindness and common curtesy is underrated eh?

:/ Tough gig. I see what you mean.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Is anyone else kinda shocked by the Qurbani appeals by various charities and the massive discrepancy between donating to one country to another etc?

 

[Kinitari]

Yikes, reading some of the discussion on the last few pages is overwhelming. I don't remember all these caveats and rules and restrictions when I was a Muslim. But I wasn't a very good Muslim I guess.

And I know what you mean about Yemen Kisaya, I'm around a quarter Yemeni, been there once. No thank you. My sister and mom had to deal with their hands tied, metaphorically, all the time. And the judgement was thrown at my 14 year old self before my butt cooled from the warm seat on the airplane. It was an exhausting place where they seemed to place virtue in being miserable.

Question to Muslim gaffers - I just watched a really interesting presentation by Ray Kurzweil yesterday, and it got me thinking about the adoption of technology and religion.

One thing he talked about is the integration of nanorobotics/genetic modification in medicine, and remembering how my Muslim relatives would talk about technology, some of them were soooo damn wary - how do you guys think your personal communities, or even just yourselves will feel about that sort of technology when it becomes more available (the first gene therapy drug has just been made legal in the UK - this isn't the stuff of science fiction).

 

[Ashes]

I suppose you are looking for subjective opinions, but objectively speaking, medicine and Islamic doctrine don't seem to clash as often as one thinks. The preservation of life seems to be more important theologically speaking.

e.g. google example http://www.islamicmedicine.org/SayadBook2.htm

I'd criticise this by talking about mental health, but I think my opinion there can be criticised too, in that the reaction is cultural and local, rather than the religion in question.

On a similar point, NHS donations leaflets, the localised ones reaching for Muslim communities, may support organ donations with the backing of mosques and various muslim organisations, but individuals themselves may feel uneasy by the modern methods and thinking.

That is medicine of course. And not other scientific disciplines.

 

[Kinitari]

I suppose you are looking for subjective opinions, but objectively speaking, medicine and Islamic doctrine don't seem to clash as often as one thinks. The preservation of life seems to be more important theologically speaking.

e.g. google example http://www.islamicmedicine.org/SayadBook2.htm

I'd criticise this by talking about mental health, but I think my opinion there can be criticised too, in that the reaction is cultural and local, rather than the religion in question.

On a similar point, NHS donations leaflets, the localised ones reaching for Muslim communities, may support organ donations with the backing of mosques and various muslim organisations, but individuals themselves may feel uneasy by the modern methods and thinking.

That is medicine of course. And not other scientific disciplines.

Thanks for the reply - I was looking at more personal answers, you're right - but it was interesting to read (some... just some) of that link. Generally there seems to be a lot of pride in the Islamic world's contribution to modern science, so I can see how the scientific advances in medicine don't clash with Islam theologically.

But when I talk to my mom for example about technology that goes into your body, she blanch's - but I don't know if it's because of her age, because of the location of her upbringing or because of Islam's influence on her.

What, in your opinion, has some Muslim's uneasy about modern methods in medical science and do you think this permeates into the younger generations of Muslims?

 

[Kyzer]

Not exactly.

Can you elaborate? If the word of God was given to Moses on Mt Sinai would that not be Yahweh?

 

[Aadil]

I don't get it. Are you saying that we are spiritually bankrupt? You do realise that your salah is inherently worthless without your heart and soul in it. Your duas are meaningless as well.

The problem with sufism is that they are an innovation in religion. all these concepts of spirituality which already do exist in islam way before sufism arrived are just besides the point.

what did God say in chapter 5 ayah number 3. Then look at ghazali and the rest of sufis and ask them this. Was muhammed Pbuh a sufi? were the sahaba sufis? you can go on and on.

Sufism is just innovation nothing more nothing less

I'm not too knowledgeable on all the different sects, I kind of hate the idea of it actually, but isn't any 'sect' an innovation in religion? When I used to live in Bahrain people would ask me if im Shia or Sunni, Id just say Muslim.

I have heard that sufis practice a lot of this deep trance sort of state where they project themselves in some manner...I find that a bit strange.

However I occasionally watch Sheikh Imran Hoseins lectures on youtube, he's a sufi but he always talks about how there shouldn't be any conflict between sects. He also doesn't practice their meditative trance things. His vids are mainly about Islamic eschatology and political theory, by interpretating the Quran and Hadith both by taking them literally and metaphorically. What's your opinion on that? (taking things metaphorically rather than literally all the time, as Salafis do).

Have any of the people in this thread encountered Imran Hosein and if so what are your opinions?

Thanks for the reply - I was looking at more personal answers, you're right - but it was interesting to read (some... just some) of that link. Generally there seems to be a lot of pride in the Islamic world's contribution to modern science, so I can see how the scientific advances in medicine don't clash with Islam theologically.

But when I talk to my mom for example about technology that goes into your body, she blanch's - but I don't know if it's because of her age, because of the location of her upbringing or because of Islam's influence on her.

What, in your opinion, has some Muslim's uneasy about modern methods in medical science and do you think this permeates into the younger generations of Muslims?

I don't really think the two should conflict, I don't have much knowledge on the matter from the 'religious' side so I'm kind of interested to see people say too.

Personally though I don't like the idea of genetic modification or trying to pro-long life etc, I find it un-natural. I don't even like most medicine and try to keep it as herbal as possible.

 

[Darackutny]

What's your opinion on that? (taking things metaphorically rather than literally all the time, as Salafis do).

It seems that during the last few decades, the "modern" Muslim has started to apply this method of whatever did not suit their values and morals. Any Qur'anic verse or hadith could be twisted into a completely different meaning if referred to as metaphorical. Now, I'm not saying that metaphors didn't exist among classical Arabs societies, I'm just saying that there were specific conditions that needed to be met to for this tool to be used.

Earlier in history, extinct sects like the Murji'a used to refer every narration that described levels of faith as metaphorical. Take for example the narration that states that the smallest action of faith is to remove annoyances from paths (for Arab-GAF: إماطة الأذى من الطري&#1602. The Murji'a saw this narration as a metaphorical one, even though there is no reason for one to take as anything but literal. This is because they liked to believe that there is one level of faith, which means that the faith of any believer is as strong as the level of faith of a prophet.

Similarly, today, the "modern" Muslim would dismiss anything that could fall under criticism by the West as a metaphor.

However, since metaphors do exist, one needs to ask oneself where one needs to draw a line. One should apply this tool to the texts out of necessity, instead of abusing it to the extent that one uses his own values to form his own religion.

As for Salafis, well, they aren't as literal as Muslim-GAF thinks. Take for example the verse that says: وَاصْبِرْ لِحُكْمِ رَبِّكَ فَإِنَّكَ بِأَعْيُنِنَا

The Yusuf Ali translation has it as: Now await in patience the command of thy Lord: for verily thou art in Our eyes (52:48)

Even though the translation is correct, there is no Salafi that will say that this means that Mohammad is literally IN the eyes of Allah. The metaphor, used by Arabs of the time and even by some Arabs today, is that "to keep in your eyes" would mean to take care of or to protect.

So, I disagree with the view that Salafis are literal. Perhaps one could say that they are more cautious with the usage of applying metaphorical interpretations, yes.

 

[Ashes]

Do you prescribe predominantly to salafis views?

Your criticism seems to denounce alternatives views with the accusation of a cultural bowing to the west... As if the west were a school of thought wrong from the get go.

Do you not think your god would agree with the modernisation of thought like the abolition of slavery for example?

 

[Darackutny]

Do you prescribe predominantly to salafis views?

Obviously.

Your criticism seems to denounce alternatives views with the accusation of a cultural bowing to the west... As if the west were a school of thought wrong from the get go.

Almost. Let me say it this way... Even though I am not fond of how some Muslims bend over backwards seeking approval from the Western world, it isn't my main issue. I just find it sad that they would interpret their religion for that purpose.

Sure, nobody in the West likes it, but Islamic law, in the eyes of the average Muslim, is not suppose to change with time.

Do you not think your god would agree with the modernisation of thought like the abolition of slavery for example?

Are you trying to draw a parallel between the slavery that was practiced in the West and the slavery found in 7th century Arabia? If you are, then please don't and do some research on the subject.

 

[Ashes]

1. No. It was literal. The abolition of slavery in its current state. What exactly do you mean by comparing slavery now to back then? I wasn't doing that. Just comparing the lack of an existing law that forbids slavery to the current form.

2. Islamic law (or similar) changed in the times of prophet as circumstances changed too. God changes its mind or what? e.g. Alcohol.

 

[crazy monkey]

Ashes yiu are still Muslim right? why are you saying your god?

 

[kingslunk]

No choice during birth indeed but you make your own choices when you grow up.

I am in my late twenties and i can choose to walk away from islam if i choose to and no one would stop me from doing so.

Look be happy with yourself. You clearly do not need God. So there is no point in lecturing me or others on what God should or shouldnt do

Let me ask you this then, and anyone else that feels the need to answer.

Why do you still believe in god/follow a religion?

 

[Darackutny]

1. No. It was literal. The abolition of slavery in its current state. What exactly do you mean by comparing slavery now to back then? I wasn't do that. Just comparing the lack of an existing law that forbids slavery to the current form.

I'm not following. Please rephrase that.

2. Islamic law (or similar) changed in the times of prophet as circumstances changed too. God changes its mind or what? e.g. Alcohol.

Seriously?

Islam was made complete upon the final Hajj in which the verse: اليوم أكملت دينكم - "Today I have made complete your religion."

The gradual process of the prohibition of alcohol by Allah is not something you can compare to Muslim society changing its own laws and definitions of Islam.

 

[Ashes]

Ashes yiu are still Muslim right? why are you saying your god?

Short answer? bad habits. Or good habits if you look at it in another way, philosophically speaking.

1. In debates, I prefer taking a formal tone.
2. And looking at a subject from a distance allows one to study a subject holistically.

If an argument is good enough, it wouldn't make a difference if I belonged to this school of thought or that school of thought or whether I were christian, muslim, etc etc etc.

And so in trying to be impersonal, and formal, I'm criticising his school of thought, and challenging what god's character is. We may share the same name, i.e. call it god, but if the character and perspective described is different enough, on some level it becomes easier for me describe them as God A and God B. This allows me to compare the two schools of thought where god is concerned.

And this is in answer to Kyzer: While in essence we are describing the one god, and trying to get to that truth, they are different enough to suggest the God of the Old Testament and his character and outlook is not the god Muslims believe in. Muslims believe in the god as laid out in the Quran [and the Hadiths (unless you dismiss the hadiths as some do and only go by the Quran]].

 

[Ashes]

Seriously?

Islam was made complete upon the final Hajj in which the verse: اليوم أكملت دينكم - "Today I have made complete your religion."

The gradual process of the prohibition of alcohol by Allah is not something you can compare to Muslim society changing its own laws and definitions of Islam.

Rephrasing the slavery question:

Do you think Slavery is okay? Sorry, I mean does the Salafis school of thought okay one to keep slaves today?

 

[Darackutny]

^ Ashes, there seems to be some confusion regarding Salafism. It isn't a school of law, but a school of thought. Salafis differ with other sects mainly in their view of how one views and interprets the attributes of Allah. What I'm trying to say is that you will not get a unified "Salafi" answer to that question, since there are all sorts of Salafis, like Hanbali Salafis, Maliki Salafis, Shafi'i Salafis, etc. That said, the Salafi "literalism" is not related to these matters.

I am not a student of any specific school of law so I am pretty ignorant in the fields of jurisprudence.