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Official Islamic Thread

pubba

Member
I'm moving to the Muslim capital of china: yinchuan city, next week.

Thanks for this thread. I grew up in a Christian family in a mostly Christian area and knew very little about Islam before reading all of this.

Gonna miss pork. Apparently it's almost impossible to get in yinchuan...
 
Rephrasing the slavery question:

Do you think Slavery is okay? Sorry, I mean does the Salafis school of thought okay one to keep slaves today?

In Islam, nothing is forbidden unless explicit proof exists or unless there is definitive proof that it leads to sin. For example, a lot of scholars have made watching television in general haraam with their reasoning that there is more harm in it and that it leads to more sins than the good that may potentially be derived from it.

Similarly, scholars have passed fatwas permitting or forbidding slavery based on the context of their societies.

But in the end, there is no comparison between the Western form of slavery and the slavery that was practiced in the Muslim world and during the three best generations. Slaves were treated honourably, fed and dressed in the same quality as their masters, were able to buy freedom, etc. not to mention the fact that Islam provides so many excuses for masters to free their slaves for rewards in the hereafter. Even the act of freeing a slave is inherently recorded as a good deed.

And to be clear, I am not a Salafi.

@Darackutny:

Salafism is not only defined by differences in beliefs. It may be considered a separate madhhab since many Salafis do not adhere to a particular madhab. So, there may be Salafi Hanbalis, Salafi Shafi'is, etc., there are also many who do not adhere to any school. This is different from the common layperson who doesn't know about these four madhabs and merely following what he sees Muslims around him doing, since many of the Salafis who refuse to follow a madhab are knowledgeable about Islam.

It is difficult to define Salafism since it is by its nature a system of reinvention. Some Salafis say that they follow only the Qur'an and the hadeeth, rejecting the sayings of scholars. Others accept the sayings of the early scholars. Others accept the sayings of the later scholars. Others use their own logic to arrive at conclusions that may be novel or revisiting extinct opinions.

A clear example of all this is the idea of divorce. The belief of all the four imams of the four schools of thought is that uttering divorce three times in one sitting qualifies as three divorces. The opinion of Ibn Taymiyah is that is only counts as one. Some Salafis take the opinion of Ibn Taymiyah over that of the four imams, some don't - particularly the Saudi Salafis who adhere to the opinion of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal over that of Ibn Taymiyah on this issue. Another issue is about where the hands should be folded during prayer. The opinion of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal is that they should be folded above the navel. Many Salafis today are of the opinion that they should be folded at the level of the chest.

Another thing you'll find differing amongst the Salafis is the opinion about the beard. Many Salafis who are linked with Saudi universities are of the opinion that you cannot trim the beard at all. Other Salafis believe that there is no problem in cutting the beard. Yasir Qadhi, a Salafi graduate of Madinah University, even changed his opinion from the former to the latter, and now sports a trimmed beard, despite the fact that his teachers at Madinah University would disagree with him entirely and view him as an open sinner for cutting his beard.

Furthermore, there are varying beliefs within the ranks of Salafism. There are some Salafis who believe that following a madhab is tantamount to shirk while others don't. There are some Salafis whose beliefs can not be described in any way other than anthropomorphism while some Salafis do not go to such an extreme. There are some Salafis who believe that the Qur'an is a creation, while others don't. There are some Salafi groups that make takfeer of other Salafi groups. For example, the Jihaadi Salafis such as those in terrorist groups have made takfeer of the Madkhali Salafis as well as any Salafi scholar that supports the Saudi kingdom.
 

Ashes

Banned
^ Ashes, there seems to be some confusion regarding Salafism. It isn't a school of law, but a school of thought. Salafis differ with other sects mainly in their view of how one views and interprets the attributes of Allah. What I'm trying to say is that you will not get a unified "Salafi" answer to that question, since there are all sorts of Salafis, like Hanbali Salafis, Maliki Salafis, Shafi'i Salafis, etc. That said, the Salafi "literalism" is not related to these matters.

I am not a student of any specific school of law so I am pretty ignorant in the fields of jurisprudence.

ahh I see what you mean. At least I think I do. :)
 

Darackutny

Junior Member
There are some Salafis whose beliefs can not be described in any way other than anthropomorphism while some Salafis do not go to such an extreme.

Uh-oh, not this again. I don't know if I'd want to press you for examples or just let this one pass.

There are some Salafis who believe that the Qur'an is a creation, while others don't.

Hmm? That's new to me. Care to share a few examples of the former?
 

Zapages

Member
On a lighter side of things, my local mosque announced that we will be celebrating Eid ul Adha on Friday. How about you guys?
 

Aadil

Banned
I'm moving to the Muslim capital of china: yinchuan city, next week.

Thanks for this thread. I grew up in a Christian family in a mostly Christian area and knew very little about Islam before reading all of this.

Gonna miss pork. Apparently it's almost impossible to get in yinchuan...

its not impossible man. you can get it, but from what ive heard its not as good. and theres not much ruckus going on here.

i'll see you soon pal.
 
Uh-oh, not this again. I don't know if I'd want to press you for examples or just let this one pass.

Does Allah occupy a space?

Anthropomorphism is pretty common accusation against Salafis since many of the statements made by them make it appear to be so. Ibn Taymiyah, even though I respect him, has been known to say that Allah descends as if a person descends from a mimbar.

The reason this accusation is made because some Salafis say things like, "Allah has an eye but we cannot imagine it," or "Allah sits on the throne in a way befitting His majesty". This is anthropomorphism since it is attributing created objects and actions to Allah. When Abu Hanifa translated the Qur'an into Farsi, he left the words like "yad" and "ayn" untranslated since he feared that even doing so would be kufr. Some Salafis don't just translate these words according to their understanding, they take the literal meaning, which is anthropomorphism. Saying Allah has this or that body part or does this or that physical action in a manner befitting His majesty is still anthropomorphism.

Hmm? That's new to me. Care to share a few examples of the former?

Some Salafis have the belief that the Qur'an or the speech of Allah has to come into being from a state of non-being. Correct belief is that the Qur'an is eternal. These Salafis like to attack the Ash'aris for believing in the "createdness" of the Qur'an, when the Ash'aris differentiate what a person recites and writes from the eternal existence of the Qur'an.

Many Salafis today are neo-Dhahiris. Dhahiris believed that the Qur'an was muhdath - something that comes into being from a state of non-existence. There was a big argument between Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal and al-Dhahiri over this, since Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (as well as all the Sunnis) believed that the Qur'an is eternal.
 

Codeblue

Member
On a lighter side of things, my local mosque announced that we will be celebrating Eid ul Adha on Friday. How about you guys?

Same thing. Two cousins of mine just flew in from Iraq so I'm pretty excited to spend it with extended family for the first time in over a decade.
 

Darackutny

Junior Member
Anthropomorphism is pretty common accusation against Salafis since many of the statements made by them make it appear to be so. Ibn Taymiyah, even though I respect him, has been known to say that Allah descends as if a person descends from a mimbar.

This has been falsely attributed to him. His ideology has been explained in great detail and such a statement or anything like it cannot be found in his works. More importantly, likening the kayfiyyah of al-nuzool contradicts the very fundamentals that he saw heavily focused on teaching.

As for the attribution of place to Allah, well, that's just something that isn't exclusive to Salafis. Pick up a copy of Al-Thahabi's Al-Uloo, and you'll realize how popular of a view this was among the early scholars.

Some Salafis have the belief that the Qur'an or the speech of Allah has to come into being from a state of non-being.

Yes, this is foreign to me, which is why I am interested in a couple of examples, if you don't mind. I don't recall reading a book or article from a Salafi that included anything other than "Al-Qur'an kalam Allah, ghair makhlooq."
 
Sufism is just innovation nothing more nothing less
Woooaaaah... calm down there champ.

I will assume the best and take it that you mean it like it was said amongst the sahaba(radiAllahu anhu) when they referred to the moving of Jumaah to the Masjid, 'this is the best of innovation'.
 
Same thing. Two cousins of mine just flew in from Iraq so I'm pretty excited to spend it with extended family for the first time in over a decade.

Yeah, Friday :D alhamduliLlah, the community in Sydney are all celebrating it on the same day :)

I go to a local school where they have jumaa salat in the courtyard. A man by the name of Sheikh Khaled gives the khutbah, and his tajweed is amazing. Can't wait.
 

Ashes

Banned
So then are Musilims worshipping Yahweh?

ashes said:
Not exactly.

can someone address this for me im trying to figure it out

:We may share use of the same name, i.e. call it god, but if the character and perspective described is different enough, on some level it becomes easier for me describe them as God A and God B. This allows me to compare the two schools of thought where god is concerned.

And this is in answer to Kyzer: While in essence we are describing the one god, and trying to get to that truth, they are different enough to suggest the God of the Old Testament and his character and outlook is not the god Muslims believe in. Muslims believe in the god as laid out in the Quran [and the Hadiths (unless you dismiss the hadiths as some do and only go by the Quran]].

...
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
I am feeling so..... far away from Allah SWT nowadays..... I rarely do daily prayers, I don't ask from Allah SWT again for stuff....... In fact, there are times when I ask, "Are You really there oh ya Allah?"

I honestly feel horrible about it v_______________v
 

Darackutny

Junior Member
@ Kyzer:

I believe Ashes is looking too deep into it.

In my opinion, yes, Allah is Yahweh. The Muslim perspective is that Yahweh is not defined by the current Torah that has been tampered with, but Yahweh is defined by what Allah is defined by (i.e. the Qur'an and Sunnah).
 
I am feeling so..... far away from Allah SWT nowadays..... I rarely do daily prayers, I don't ask from Allah SWT again for stuff....... In fact, there are times when I ask, "Are You really there oh ya Allah?"

I honestly feel horrible about it v_______________v

I sometimes feel this way. There is no punishment for these thoughts; you will overcome them, and the reward will be great.
 

F#A#Oo

Banned
I am feeling so..... far away from Allah SWT nowadays..... I rarely do daily prayers, I don't ask from Allah SWT again for stuff....... In fact, there are times when I ask, "Are You really there oh ya Allah?"

I honestly feel horrible about it v_______________v

So you're saying you're a normal Muslim?

I find that if I'm slipping I go mosque for my prayers when possible or attend talks and discussions. I find these sorts of things recharge/top-up my iman.

Sometimes we need to break the monotony of our daily lives with some new approaches to doing things.
 
I am feeling so..... far away from Allah SWT nowadays..... I rarely do daily prayers, I don't ask from Allah SWT again for stuff....... In fact, there are times when I ask, "Are You really there oh ya Allah?"

I honestly feel horrible about it v_______________v

Some time it takes affort. Everyone remembers Allah(SWT) in tough time it is in good times when you do not have any tension no problems in life that is when you should remember the same way. You have a good life. I just never feel like allah oak is further away. Go to mosque read quran for 15 minutes. Try to understand it. It will come back.
 

Grim1ock

Banned
I am feeling so..... far away from Allah SWT nowadays..... I rarely do daily prayers, I don't ask from Allah SWT again for stuff....... In fact, there are times when I ask, "Are You really there oh ya Allah?"

I honestly feel horrible about it v_______________v

Allah mentioned this sort of attitude in the quran. Where everything is going fine and dandy and Allah seems like a distant thought in your head. Then when calamity or distress strikes you as it inevitably would you would turn to him for guidance and help.

don't be amongst such people. Hell even we humans have a term for it. It's called fair weather friend. The duniya is short and fleeting. Nothing is constant. One minute you will be laughing then next you will crying. Thank Allah for everything you have. Remember this you will go to bed god willing safe in the knowledge that you're secure and plenty to eat. some people dont have that luxury right now. So thank Allah for what you have.

Let me ask you this then, and anyone else that feels the need to answer.

Why do you still believe in god/follow a religion?

Because God exists? Short and straight to the point.


Woooaaaah... calm down there champ.

I will assume the best and take it that you mean it like it was said amongst the sahaba(radiAllahu anhu) when they referred to the moving of Jumaah to the Masjid, 'this is the best of innovation'.

have you actually researched sufism? According to my sufi friend who are all mureeds to some sufi saint who has some secret knowledge no one has, their sufi masters will intercede for them in the day of judgement. On what basis is this not innovation
 

Ashes

Banned
@ Kyzer:

I believe Ashes is looking too deep into it.

In my opinion, yes, Allah is Yahweh. The Muslim perspective is that Yahweh is not defined by the current Torah that has been tampered with, but Yahweh is defined by what Allah is defined by (i.e. the Qur'an and Sunnah).

@Kyzer: Well yeah, philosophical musings aside, with Muhammad being refered to as the seal of the prophets, Allah is Yahweh, with as darak says, the Quran superseding the Torah.

Hence, why I said 'not exactly.'
 

Kyzer

Banned
ah so they believe the word of God was tampered with. interesting.

Did you guys know the Latter Day Saints believe in the Great Apostasy, in which catholicism was infilitrated by the devil himself, and currently resides in a city full of gold being worshipped as god himself?
 
have you actually researched sufism? According to my sufi friend who are all mureeds to some sufi saint who has some secret knowledge no one has, their sufi masters will intercede for them in the day of judgement. On what basis is this not innovation

A few points.

The first is that it is not good manners to start a conversation accusing the other of ignorance, thus making the assumption that your position is the only logical one. I have in fact researched Sufism, from reading Ghazzali, to the translated letters of Imam Rabbani and much else. I could well ask the same of you, when your primary argument to me is that 'a friend told you'.

This knowledge gleaned leads to my second point, which is specifically that Sufism is not a single thing, that everyone does the same. There are certainly deviant Sufis who abandon the Sha'riah, but for most there is no contradiction, indeed there is a saying amongst many that 'there is no tasawuf without sha'riah'. If you have researched Sufism you will know of the role that practitioners of tasawuf have played in bringing about orthodox and reviving the religion at its darkest hours. The aforementioned Ahmed Sirhindi being just one such example.

Finally you refer to innovation without clarification. By the linguistic meaning, you are an innovation, as am I. You need to be more specific about what you mean by innovation in a negative sense. This is why I referred to the saying of the Sahaba when jumaa was moved from the house of the Messenger of Allah (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) to the masjid 'this is the best of innovations'.
 

Kenka

Member
Happy kurban bayrami to everyone. Got early up today and went to the bayram namazi, mosque was filled with people.
Happy eid e kurban to you too, mate. Man, I can't believe I am not able to attend any dinner today...

tumblr_ltw1ipX7jp1qe87qe.gif
 

Kisaya

Member
Eid Mubarak everyone! Don't think I'll be doing anything special tomorrow, but I hope I have a good breakfast/dinner + money at least ^_^;
 

Grim1ock

Banned
Eid mubarak ya muslimeen

A few points.

The first is that it is not good manners to start a conversation accusing the other of ignorance, thus making the assumption that your position is the only logical one. I have in fact researched Sufism, from reading Ghazzali, to the translated letters of Imam Rabbani and much else. I could well ask the same of you, when your primary argument to me is that 'a friend told you'.

This knowledge gleaned leads to my second point, which is specifically that Sufism is not a single thing, that everyone does the same. There are certainly deviant Sufis who abandon the Sha'riah, but for most there is no contradiction, indeed there is a saying amongst many that 'there is no tasawuf without sha'riah'. If you have researched Sufism you will know of the role that practitioners of tasawuf have played in bringing about orthodox and reviving the religion at its darkest hours. The aforementioned Ahmed Sirhindi being just one such example.

Finally you refer to innovation without clarification. By the linguistic meaning, you are an innovation, as am I. You need to be more specific about what you mean by innovation in a negative sense. This is why I referred to the saying of the Sahaba when jumaa was moved from the house of the Messenger of Allah (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) to the masjid 'this is the best of innovations'.

Allah mentions in the quran 'do not divide the religion and make sects' amongst many things.

where did this idea come from where you incorporate dancing amongst your dhikir? Where did this nonsense come from where you get these sufi saints and orders with their own school of thought interceding for you in qiyamah. have you seen folks like nazim al haqqani? One of my friends is an ardent folllower. Who believes haqqani will intercede for him. He also has the knowledge of the unseen.

Sufism is just biddah. Islam ended on the day of arafat. The deen is complete and finished. Anything after that is biddah
 

Salih

Member
Eid Mubarak to my fellow brothers and sisters in Islam!

All praise belongs to ALLAH (Subhanahu wa ta'ala) alone.
May ALLAH (Subhanahu wa ta'ala) help us increase and strengthen our Iman, may HE help us to be among the truthful and righteous people, may HE reunite us all in this world and again in Jannah, may HE never let us go astray. Ameen!
 

Gomu Gomu

Member
Happy Eid :D. You would not believe how exhausted I am now, after all the activities we've done today. Eid with your family is the best.
 
Eid Mubarak brothers and sisters. =]

NPR had a great piece yesterday about how Saudi Arabia continues to tear down MAJOR historical and religiously relevant sites due to it's "state-endorsed Wahhabism."

Makes me sad to think, that insha-allah, when I get to do my Hajj, it will mostly be all replaced with hotels and shops...

Mecca In Flux As Historic Sties Are Torn Down

EDIT: Hate being at work on Eid. =/
 
Allah mentions in the quran 'do not divide the religion and make sects' amongst many things.

where did this idea come from where you incorporate dancing amongst your dhikir? Where did this nonsense come from where you get these sufi saints and orders with their own school of thought interceding for you in qiyamah. have you seen folks like nazim al haqqani? One of my friends is an ardent folllower. Who believes haqqani will intercede for him. He also has the knowledge of the unseen.

Sufism is just biddah. Islam ended on the day of arafat. The deen is complete and finished. Anything after that is biddah

I think to begin my response I should emphasise something about this discussion. This issue is one of great gravity, the declaration of entire groups and practises as being deviant is an immense one indeed. Traditionally it was something done only in very dire circumstances... and confined to those with the rank of Qadi. In this respect, any generalisations need to be taken with the utmost caution. The act of declaring another Muslim a deviant has consequences not only for the accused, but also for the accuser.

With this in mind, the first point is the definition of terms. You use many, without distinction. The first is quoting the Qur'an regarding sects, yet you do not define what constitutes a 'sect'. Do all groupings within the Muslims become 'sects'? By being from the Ahlul-Sunnah wa Jamaat, am I a sectarian or schizmatic? What about following a madhab? Is that a sect... if so, then by your implication, all of us are in hot water! Even those who claim not to be of a madhab, still have that claim as their madhab!

Secondly, we have a range of assumptions that are not supported, they are as follows:

-All sufis dance while making dhikr
-Sufi 'saints' have their own school of thought.
-The idea of intercession is throughout Sufism
-Nazim Haqqani represents all Sufis
-The fact that the deen is complete means that anything that Muslims do after that is 'innovation' a term that you use as inherently negative.

These are problematic assumptions as you take an individual Sheikh or 'Sufi' group, and base your assumptions about all Sufis on that group. I will bold this for emphasis: this is not a valid assumption. This generalisation, invalid as it is, is sufficient to dismiss your claims.

Not all people who practice Tasawuf do any of the the things that you describe. Thus your assertion that they are all deviants is unfounded. This general condemnation is dangerous for you, and I warn you away from it, for the sake of God.

Additionally, your idea of 'bidaah' has many problematic ideas within it. Indeed by your definition, you condemn our Masters, the Caliphs Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali (radiAllahu anhu) to the rank of deviants. As they 'added' things.

They added tashkilat to the Qur'an, they compiled it in a single comprehensive volume. They used analogical reasoning to make rulings on things not ruled on directly by the Messenger of Allah (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam). They moved Jumaah from the house of the Messenger of Allah (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) to the masjid, something they described as 'the best of innovations'.

Even then, you essentially condemn further those that followed them. Those that created the schools of law, those that compiled the hadith, and all the rest as innovators and deviants.

Do you not see this folly? Ibn Tamiyya spoke highly of the Sufis, Imam Nawawi was one, as was Ghazzali, indeed Islam would likely not remain in the subcontinent intact were it not for Sufis like the great reviver Ahmad Sirhindi. To dismiss all the above as deviants is a very grave affair, something that should be confined to people of knowledge, and done only under great consideration.

Be wary, for this is a path where feet slip.

And Allah knows best.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Hey guys! Eid Mubarak.

I was wondering what the Islamic response to the "Problem of Evil" is. Or more precisely, what Muslims in this thread find to be the most compelling counterargument to the Problem of Evil.
 

AAK

Member
Basically, how can a god allow evil in the world if he 1) has the power to stop it, 2) knows about it, and 3) is morally good?

I look at it differently. That God has created mankind to be good ideally. In the end, we all have the potential to be good and attain peace and prosperity among each other and has left it in our free will to go about it.
 
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