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[DSWii60]

I agree, you are not a scholar of hadith and I suggest that you refrain from commenting on a subject that you have almost no knowledge of. First of all, Al Bukhari was born in the second century and NOT four hundred years after the Prophet (pbuh). Secondly, he did not "write" these hadiths up, but what he did was COLLECT hadiths that were already accepted as authentic, scrutinize them, pray two rika'as to gain a blessing from Allah (swt), and finally put them into his book.

Secondly, you believing that there is no way to prove that a hadith is authentic is a huge problem to you. That means that you are full of doubts about your religion, since pretty much EVERYTHING you believe, that isn't in the Qur'an, is somewhat doubtful. Also "strong" and "weak" are only two of the tens of classifications that Sunni scholars have given hadiths. The science is a lot more complicated than you think.

Ok, I never said Bukhari was 400 years after the Prophet, I was merely suggesting a timeframe in which the major compilations were done. I gave an arbitrary number and it has no bearing on this argument.

I know the science is complicated, but what you don't seem to understand is that hadith should not be accepted just because they exist. You have to prove them, and saying that they're in some book does not count as proof.

You see, this here is the issue. Due to your logic and your personal values, you reject hadith. However, this is not the case with the scholars of Ahlul Sunnah. Instead of relying on what they see as morally correct, they realize that their morals are flawed and bend them to suit the morals that are taught by Islam.

In verse 3:36, Allah (swt) says, "and the male is not like the female..." and in 4:34 "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means."

How can you say that men and women are equal when they are different, both physically and emotionally?

Personally, I'm not affected by feminist movements and I'm won't sacrifice my beliefs to please those that say that women and men are the same and should be treated equally.

I believe that they should be treated fairly, according to their needs and not equally, since they are different.

Of course men and women are different. This doesn't mean that they are not equal. Are you sure you follow Islam? You seem to follow Medieval practices with regards to women. So you believe they should be treated fairly? Then why do you think it is ok for men to divorce women simply by saying "talaq" 3 times whilst women can do no such thing. Divorce is a last resort and therefore should not be so easy that all you have to do is say "talaq" 3 times. In anger, anyone may say "talaq" 3 times and therefore be forced into a divorce. In fact, I remember the case of a Pakistani actor who said "talaq" 3 times in a show he was filming. Your scholars ruled he had legally divorced his wife and had to remarry.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah 's Apostle said, "Treat women nicely, for a women is created from a rib, and the most curved portion of the rib is its upper portion, so, if you should try to straighten it, it will break, but if you leave it as it is, it will remain crooked. So treat women nicely."

Read the hadith again Hadji. It says women are created from a rib. If you try to straighten a rib it will break. If you leave it as it is, it will remain crooked. How does that not mean women are crooked and if you try and straighten them, they will break?

In any case you seem to agree with the hadith that claims more women than men will enter hell. I can't believe that you actually believe this.

Anyways, I've read your responses to my quotes from Sistani's page. Looks like you don't have a problem with anything he says. So, would I be wrong in assuming that your life is in danger and that is why you pray with Sunnis?

If you had read my replies properly you would have realised that although I pray with them at the same time to show unity, my intention is that I am praying by myself, and I pray in full compliance with the Shia rules. As I do this, there is no problem with me praying with Sunnis and my prayers are accepted Insha'Allah.

Once again, the term mawlaah, doesn't necessarily mean master and in many cases it means ally.

Yes, that's right, the Prophet stopped tens of thousands of people to declare Ali was his ally. There's no way they could have known this seeing as everyone knew Ali was one of his closest companions and his son-in-law! /sarcasm

In any case, why would he only declare Ali to be his "ally." Surely if Abu Bakr was to be his successor, he would declare Abu Bakr as his "ally."

The Qur'an alone is the best refutation against Shiasm. =p

Wow, great argument! How am I going to reply to that! Oh yeah, you haven't actually come up with an argument because you don't have anything from the Qur'an that refutes this.

Allah has always appointed his Prophets, and his Messengers on this earth. When Islam is a perfect religion, why would Allah suddenly decide to stop appointing people to deliver His Message and allow imperfect people to decide who the Khalif on earth is to be? Allah is the One Who decides who is His Khalif not man.



All the points you come up with are either due to you misreading what I have said or are relics of old Arabian traditions which have filtered into your way of thinking due to your blind acceptance of every hadith. Open your mind and question everything you are told because right now you are simply ignoring many of my points and sticking to your prehistoric ways of thought.

Hadji and the other: Good work. Lots of interesting things to read

Thanks, how did your Medicine application go? I remember you were applying a while back.

 

[Hadji]

I know the science is complicated, but what you don't seem to understand is that hadith should not be accepted just because they exist. You have to prove them, and saying that they're in some book does not count as proof.

...I seriously don't know why I even bother to reply to you. I don't "blindly" follow everything in Saheeh Al Bukhari because of the book's name. I accept all the traditions in it because it survived the test of time and the scruntiny of the scholars. Like I said, other scholars have written books that they intended to be Saheeh, but failed miserably. I don't accept everything in their books because they failed.

Of course men and women are different. This doesn't mean that they are not equal. Are you sure you follow Islam? You seem to follow Medieval practices with regards to women. So you believe they should be treated fairly? Then why do you think it is ok for men to divorce women simply by saying "talaq" 3 times whilst women can do no such thing.

1- How can things that are different be treated equally? Take for example, a woman is pregnant with a child and she cannot attend work for a few months. Does she get the same treatment as a man that is sick for a few months? Does she get fired? It just doesn't work that way. There is no institution in the world that can claim to treat both men and women equally. Even feminists fail miserably at this.

2- I do follow Islam. How can issues like gender superiority throw someone out of the fold of Islam? Your conclusion is baseless.

3- I already mentioned that Ibn Taymiyah is against this act. I don't believe in triple "talaq". Why do you keep bringing a fiqh issue into the subject? This has nothing to do with our dialogue.

Read the hadith again Hadji. It says women are created from a rib. If you try to straighten a rib it will break. If you leave it as it is, it will remain crooked. How does that not mean women are crooked and if you try and straighten them, they will break?

You fail to understand it. The hadeeth says treat women nicely. The hadeeth describes a balance that should be used when dealing with women. Don't let them walk all over you and don't be extreme with them.

In any case you seem to agree with the hadith that claims more women than men will enter hell. I can't believe that you actually believe this.

This is the difference between me and you. You will reject parts of your religion if you don't like it. The same way you did with the hadeeth about taqiyyah.

If you had read my replies properly you would have realised that although I pray with them at the same time to show unity, my intention is that I am praying by myself, and I pray in full compliance with the Shia rules.

So you admit that you do taqiyyah then? =)

Well, I'm glad that I didn't have to drag it out of you.

Yes, that's right, the Prophet stopped tens of thousands of people to declare Ali was his ally. There's no way they could have known this seeing as everyone knew Ali was one of his closest companions and his son-in-law! /sarcasm

In any case, why would he only declare Ali to be his "ally." Surely if Abu Bakr was to be his successor, he would declare Abu Bakr as his "ally."

Are you assuming that if the Prophet (pbuh) knew that Ali (raa) had trouble with some of his other companions, that he'd just let it go?

2:257 - Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.

Word used for guardian is wali.

Wow, great argument! How am I going to reply to that! Oh yeah, you haven't actually come up with an argument because you don't have anything from the Qur'an that refutes this.

I was kidding, thus the "=p".

Allah has always appointed his Prophets, and his Messengers on this earth. When Islam is a perfect religion, why would Allah suddenly decide to stop appointing people to deliver His Message and allow imperfect people to decide who the Khalif on earth is to be? Allah is the One Who decides who is His Khalif not man.

Uh-oh. Don't tell me that your gonna take out your Mahdi card on me. You know that he isn't around alive right?

All the points you come up with are either due to you misreading what I have said or are relics of old Arabian traditions which have filtered into your way of thinking due to your blind acceptance of every hadith. Open your mind and question everything you are told because right now you are simply ignoring many of my points and sticking to your prehistoric ways of thought.

Blind acceptance of every hadeeth is an overstatment. Most Sunni traditions are weak, which means that I reject most hadeeths. Ironically, you are the one that rejects all Shi'ite hadeeths because Al Khoei asserts that there are no saheeh shi'ite hadeeth books. Have fun exploring Islam without hadeeth dude. Take some tips from Riz if you even get lost in the sauce.

If it wasn't 5 a.m., I'd list the number of points that we ignored and made it clear that it is you who have been dodging me ever since we started.

 

[segasonic]

edit: sorry, wrong thread

 

[Karakand]

Couldn't one argue that Jesus said that he wasn't sent to abolish the law...? *shrugs* I'll look up some NT verses later.

You can argue pretty much any position in Christianity. Like I said, it's one of the best things about it. :lol

Anyways, there are isolated bits and pieces in the Gospels relating to the subject (e.g. Mark 2: 23-28) but Matthew 5:17-48 is probably the most structured. I myself would argue that your earlier position directly contradicts much of what is outlined there.

Well an Iranian told me condoms are available in her country, legal and all. I ask cuz the Pope says they're a no no

Spoiler

and most of us dont care

, and was just wondering...

Hey man, if we followed the rules completely we wouldn't be able to enjoy guilt and what's the point of being Catholic if you're gonna throw away guilt? :lol

 

[DSWii60]

Hadji, go and learn English and Islam.

How can issues like gender superiority throw someone out of the fold of Islam?

Because this is a major issue. Men believing women are inferior to them has no place in Islam.


I've given up on you...

 

[Lucky Forward]

What is the difference between the names Saladin and Salahudin? I'm watching Kingdom of Heaven again, and the character is referred to by both names.

 

[Chichikov]

What is the difference between the names Saladin and Salahudin? I'm watching Kingdom of Heaven again, and the character is referred to by both names.

It's Salah al-Din.
Saladin is the westernized version of his name.

 

[Oblivion]

1- How can things that are different be treated equally? Take for example, a woman is pregnant with a child and she cannot attend work for a few months. Does she get the same treatment as a man that is sick for a few months? Does she get fired? It just doesn't work that way. There is no institution in the world that can claim to treat both men and women equally. Even feminists fail miserably at this.

That's a terrible example. Men don't have anything that can be equivalent of pregnancy.

 

[lopaz]

That's a terrible example. Men don't have anything that can be equivalent of pregnancy.

That was the point

 

[Hadji]

That was the point

Thank you.

 

[Father_Brain]

This has nothing to do with any of the actual points being made in this thread, but why did Hadji suddenly change his transliteration from "hadeeth" to the more commonly used "hadith, and then back to "hadeeth" again?

 

[Hadji]

This has nothing to do with any of the actual points being made in this thread, but why did Hadji suddenly change his transliteration from "hadeeth" to the more commonly used "hadith, and then back to "hadeeth" again?

I didn't even notice that myself. xD

Hadji, go and learn English and Islam.

To the others in this thread:

Is my English really that bad?

 

[Oblivion]

That was the point

Argh, my fault for not clarifying.

I know what he was getting at, but I meant that if there was something that required males to take time off, I'm sure jobs would accomodate for it. I can't think of anything, other than say, a major injury or something.

 

[DSWii60]

Is my English really that bad?

You writing is good, your comprehension is poor as you've misread me many times.

Anyway I hope we can move on in the thread and it is clear we weren't progressing in the previous discussion. Hadji, just for interest, as I don't really have a firm point of view on this (and therefore won't get into pages long argument with you about this ), what is your point of view on music?

 

[James Power]

Hadji, just for interest, as I don't really have a firm point of view on this (and therefore won't get into pages long argument with you about this ), what is your point of view on music?

When Cat Stevens converted to islam in 1977 he stopped singing. He wasn't sure if it's allowed. It is!

 

[Linkin Parker]

When Cat Stevens converted to islam in 1977 he stopped singing. He wasn't sure if it's allowed. It is!

Says who ?

 

[ZiZ]

Future

24. The number of men will decrease, whilst the number of women will increase, until for every man there are 50 women. This is already happening, women population, overall is starting to exceed the population of men

In any case you seem to agree with the hadith that claims more women than men will enter hell. I can't believe that you actually believe this.

you didn't object to the first statement. wouldn't it only be natural that the second statement be true?

as for the whole gender thing.

I don't think that Hadji ever said males were superior. he just said that males and females are "different". you don't have women competing in the men's heavyweight boxing championship. is that sexism?

it's like comparing steak and ice cream. you can't say one is superior to the other. you can say one is sweeter than the other while the other is more nutritious.

anyway can we please stop the whole sunni shia discussion. this is not the time nor the place. all it's doing is repelling people from this thread.

 

[RabG]

All the religions are the same they are about POWER & CONTROLthat it gives to their
representatives be it a prophet ,pope ,mullah or minister.
Religion is the BIGGEST CON EVER if you represent your religion as any of the above
it gives you POWER over the normal population has been the same as long as written
history look at for example the POWER the POPE has over roman catholics or Mullah's
have over their people.
All religion is about fairy tales I mean JESUS (SPANISH NAME :lol ) always shown as a white man:lol
born in that part of the world I doubt it! I cant believe stories in papers today about things that
happened yesterday but we are supposed to believe accounts of things that happened
hundreds/thousands of years ago again I doubt it!.
Give you a good example years ago my mother & father told me a story it was about a mythical being
who once a year on one night of the year was able to visit all the children of the world. This being
also gave out xmas presents to them, yes SANTA was the being in question. Now as my
mother and father told me it was true I had no reason not to believe them until I was old enough to see
it was BOLL0CK5!
If you brought up a child and you and everyone else told them they were the son of you know who they
would believe it. All religion is about power and control over others the Bible etc are
great story books maybe someone should make a movie about the stories
That's what I think I maybe right and I might be wrong(but i doubt it!)

 

[Hadji]

All the religions are the same they are about POWER & CONTROLthat it gives to their
representatives be it a prophet ,pope ,mullah or minister.
Religion is the BIGGEST CON EVER if you represent your religion as any of the above
it gives you POWER over the normal population has been the same as long as written
history look at for example the POWER the POPE has over roman catholics or Mullah's
have over their people.

Orly?

-Aisha, Muhammad’s wife, reported, the Prophet’s household would sometimes pass two months without lighting a fire to cook a meal, surviving only on dates and water, and camel milk given to them as a gift by their neighbors.

-She said the simple bed on which the Prophet slept was merely a "mattress made of leather stuffed with the fiber of the date-palm tree.”

-Sahl Ibn Sa’ad, one of Muhammad’s companions, said, “The Prophet of Allah did not see bread made from fine flour from the time Allah sent him (as a prophet) until he died.”

-Amr Ibn Al-Hareth, one of Muhammad’s companions, said that when the Prophet died, he left neither money nor anything else except his white riding mule, his arms, and a piece of land which he left to charity.

 

[[Nintex]]

It's Salah al-Din.
Saladin is the westernized version of his name.

"Praise him Salah Al-Din who has found the strength to stand in defence of our great civilisation!"

"They say this is a crusade, a crusade for what ignorance, violence?"

"Altiar, it seems my students do not fully understand what it is to wield a blade, perhaps you can show them what you know..."

The main problem with the whole islamic vs. western issue is that we don't know anything about it and although there are some attempts(like this one) muslims don't give us an insight on their culture and some of us don't even care...

The one thing that bothers me about the Islam and religion are the rules. Sitting on a carpet, face in one direction, why would you pray to something that you fear? You have to do all this stuff in order not to burn in hell, but it seems that living a life without much of the human pleasures is a far worse punishment.

If only the deceased could post on GAF and tell us which religion to follow to end up in paradise. I think everyone just died and didn't go to hell nor the heavens since no one ever gave a signal that they ended up in heaven. The cries of Hitler should've reached the earth as well when he finally got his punishment along with his Nazi friends. Also wouldn't paradise be full by now? Christians, Muslims don't believe in people being reborn. How big is this paradise? Just count the ammount of deaths we had in the last 2000 years. How could they live "happily" together. "I'm sorry dude, you got to share those 10 virgins with your neighbor..." Wouldn't it be boring to live in this sealed off area that is your "paradise". Woohoo, I got my farm and the love of my life, now I can like do stuff all day untill I... Wait I don't die... I'll just do stuff forever :/". "Great, my girlfriend just ran off with the furry guy next door, let me grab this chainsaw..." "Shit... I'm in heaven fuck this shit..." "YOU SHALL BURN FOR ETERNITY MY CHILD!"

 

[Dascu]

All the religions are the same they are about POWER & CONTROLthat it gives to their
representatives be it a prophet ,pope ,mullah or minister.
Religion is the BIGGEST CON EVER if you represent your religion as any of the above
it gives you POWER over the normal population has been the same as long as written
history look at for example the POWER the POPE has over roman catholics or Mullah's
have over their people.
All religion is about fairy tales I mean JESUS (SPANISH NAME :lol ) always shown as a white man:lol
born in that part of the world I doubt it! I cant believe stories in papers today about things that
happened yesterday but we are supposed to believe accounts of things that happened
hundreds/thousands of years ago again I doubt it!.
Give you a good example years ago my mother & father told me a story it was about a mythical being
who once a year on one night of the year was able to visit all the children of the world. This being
also gave out xmas presents to them, yes SANTA was the being in question. Now as my
mother and father told me it was true I had no reason not to believe them until I was old enough to see
it was BOLL0CK5!
If you brought up a child and you and everyone else told them they were the son of you know who they
would believe it. All religion is about power and control over others the Bible etc are
great story books maybe someone should make a movie about the stories
That's what I think I maybe right and I might be wrong(but i doubt it!)

Thank you for this fantastic contribution.

 

[MeowMeow]

This whole sunnis vs shia thing is getting old. i thought i ended it, but no,..it has to be dragged on. Stop it please. No one cares, its mostly useless conjecture. Same shit they did with jesus and moses so please stfu.

Thanks.

 

[DSWii60]

I think me and Hadji have agreed to disagree and we've ended talking about it.

Hadji, I am actually seriously interested in what your view is concerning music, not so that I can argue with you, but hopefully because you'll cite hadith backing up your view and I haven't really seen that many hadith concerning music.

 

[Hadji]

The Prophet (pbuh) said "From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk (clothes), the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments, as lawful."

Authenticated by Al Bukhari.

So yeah, I had some trouble with this hadeeth for a long amount of time. Actually, it took me about a year to finally accept it. Since, much like everyone around me, I grew up listening to music.

 

[castle007]

One of the signs of judgement day is the increase in the number of singers, especially female singers.

I think the prophet mentioned that the only musical instruments that are allowed in Islam are the Daf and the other one is the flute (I think).

The only types of songs that are allowed are non love songs that have a positive purpose. (I think patriotic songs are ok, as long as they don't promote violence or majestify kings and leaders. To me, a song like "Zahrat Al Mada'aen" is not haram.)

The first thing that people of Madinah did when Prophet Mohammad migrated there is sing him a song.


The reason for not allowing music is that it distracts people from their daily routines and prayer, and teenagers start idolizing singers.

Right now, music is widespread everywhere and it is almost impossible to avoid it. But I know some people that hardly listen to music, so I guess it is possible.

 

[Verano]

ok muslims answer me this....what if this muslim half-burqa (covers only her hair, not the fez) lady keeps staring at you then stares away in an instant with a noticeable smile??

I don't mind flirting with her and/or having a muslim GF, but are these signs of muslim love?


I ask this becuz I heard that dating in ME places is much different than in the U.S.
For example, if a muslim chick smiles at some muslim dude then walks really fast. That means that she is interested in that dude, and expects him to pursue her.

Another weird fact, muslim dudes like to get in yer fez and talk rather than having some distance when socializing.
sounds gay, but that's what my Interpersonal Communications class taught me.
I apologize if this seems ignorant but what can my evil western satanic atheist ass do?

 

[castle007]

ok muslims answer me this....what if this muslim half-burqa (covers only her hair, not the fez) lady keeps staring at you then stares away in an instant with a noticeable smile??

I don't mind flirting with her and/or having a muslim GF, but are these signs of muslim love?


I ask this becuz I heard that dating in ME places is much different than in the U.S.
For example, if a muslim chick smiles at some muslim dude then walks really fast. That means that she is interested in that dude, and expects him to pursue her.

Another weird fact, muslim dudes like to get in yer fez and talk rather than having some distance when socializing. sounds gay, but that's what my Interpersonal Communications class taught me.
I apologize if this seems ignorant but what can my evil western satanic atheist ass do?

you ask a lot of questions.

 

[kitch9]

Whilst I have been Christianed, I struggle to understand how any God, who supposedly has the power to create everything on Earth would allow all the years of fighting and killing in his name because he has allowed us to be confused and mis-interpret what he said and how he did it and when.

There have been many barbaric acts commited in the name of God, and I know I shouldn't think like this but I'm not sure anybody who allows these acts be committed in his name without doing a thing is worth following in the first place.

The world is a shitty place atm imo......

Now I've depressed myself :-(

 

[Instigator]

One of the signs of judgement day is the increase in the number of singers, especially female singers.

That almost sounds like a joke.

I know you are not kidding though.

 

[fse]

did mohammed really marry a 9 year old girl? honest question. i've been hearing this a lot.

 

[saelz8]

Another weird fact, muslim dudes like to get in yer fez and talk rather than having some distance when socializing.
sounds gay, but that's what my Interpersonal Communications class taught me.
I apologize if this seems ignorant but what can my evil western satanic atheist ass do?

What is wierd about talking to someons face? That is actually how most people do it. Silly.

 

[neorej]

did mohammed really marry a 9 year old girl? honest question. i've been hearing this a lot.

That's a lie. In fact, he married his 9-year old niece. And he consumed the marriage as well.

 

[Hadji]

did mohammed really marry a 9 year old girl? honest question. i've been hearing this a lot.

It is true.

That's a lie. In fact, he married his 9-year old niece. And he consumed the marriage as well.

He did marry a nine year old girl. She was not his niece. I'd like you to prove it by quoting an Islamic source.

A'isha (raa), was engaged when she was six years old to another man. It was a common thing at the time to be married at a very early age.

The Prophet (pbuh) had no siblings. He never had a niece.

 

[neorej]

It is true.



He did marry a nine year old girl. She was not his niece. I'd like you to prove it by quoting an Islamic source.

A'isha (raa), was engaged when she was six years old to another man. It was a common thing at the time to be married at a very early age.

The Prophet (pbuh) had no siblings. He never had a niece.

Excuse me for taking the word of an imam and an educated Quran-expert over yours. Please, educate me.
All things aside, he was a pedophile. Hardly the kind of man I'd like to be an example to my kids.

 

[GSG Flash]

Excuse me for taking the word of an imam and an educated Quran-expert over yours. Please, educate me.
All things aside, he was a pedophile. Hardly the kind of man I'd like to be an example to my kids.

What imam was it? This is the first time I've ever heard anything about a niece, which is obviously false because it would mean that Abu Bakr is the prophet's brother.

Anyways, the prophet's marriage to Aisha is still hotly debated topic and no one knows the real age of Aisha when she got married, but it is widely documented that a big reason for the marriage was political.

Either way, I'm pretty sure we all are smart enough to know that what constitutes as an unsuitable marriage age in present time did not apply in the past in any culture.

 

[ZiZ]

Excuse me for taking the word of an imam and an educated Quran-expert over yours. Please, educate me.
All things aside, he was a pedophile. Hardly the kind of man I'd like to be an example to my kids.

anybody who says the prophet (peace be upon him) even had a niece is no imam or Quran-expert. it is common knowledge that the prophet had no brothers or sisters. he was a first born child. his father died before he was born and his mother died when he was six years old.

marrying at a young age was very common back then. however the prophet (PBUH) had more than ten wives most of them were old widows some even older than him. now call me crazy but I think if there ever was a pedophile who literally had his pick of the litter, his picks would most likely all be downhill from 20.

 

[Hadji]

Excuse me for taking the word of an imam and an educated Quran-expert over yours.

An educated Qur'an expert? By who's standard... yours?

Excuse me for taking the word of the companions of Mohammed (pbuh), scholars of history, and the authentic hadeeth over your "imam", the educated Qur'an expert.

 

[neorej]

An educated Qur'an expert? By who's standard... yours?

By Dutch Muslim standards, actually. It goes without saying they are far inferior to whatever you've been told, since religion never tends to be subject to interpretation, and religious people are hardly ever subject to the tunnel-vision-syndrome.

Excuse me for taking the word of the companions of Mohammed (pbuh), scholars of history, and the authentic hadeeth over your "imam", the educated Qur'an expert.

You've spoken to them directly, I take it?

FTR: the imam and the educated Quran-expert are two separate persons.

Still, you fail to answer the question how you feel about having a pedophile as a role-model for your faith, culture and way of life. One could presume you feel rather good about it.

 

[neorej]

What imam was it? This is the first time I've ever heard anything about a niece, which is obviously false because it would mean that Abu Bakr is the prophet's brother.

Anyways, the prophet's marriage to Aisha is still hotly debated topic and no one knows the real age of Aisha when she got married, but it is widely documented that a big reason for the marriage was political.

Either way, I'm pretty sure we all are smart enough to know that what constitutes as an unsuitable marriage age in present time did not apply in the past in any culture.

Just like it's widely documented that God, Allah and the Flying Spaghetti-monster are real?

 

[GSG Flash]

Just like it's widely documented that God, Allah and the Flying Spaghetti-monster are real?

Well, atleast we know your real motives for being on this thread? Do you have any sources to back your information up? How are you so sure that the prophet married Aisha at such a young age, have you spoken to him directly? What constitutes as pedophile in your opinion relative to that time in history? Because then I would be willing to bet that some of your ancestors were pedophiles as well.

 

[Hadji]

You've spoken to them directly, I take it?

FTR: the imam and the educated Quran-expert are two separate persons.

Still, you fail to answer the question how you feel about having a pedophile as a role-model for your faith, culture and way of life.

I see you've got double standards. Did the companions tell your "imam" that Mohammed (pbuh) married his niece?

All the knowledge we have about the Prophet (pbuh) specifically and Islam in general is brought to us from the companions. Without them, the religion wouldn't have reached us.

So why do you accept the idea that Mohammed (pbuh) married his niece? If the companions didn't state this, then where did you get your knowledge from?

I understand why he is pedophile in your eyes, but that's because of your twisted standards. Well, to be fair, it's not just yours, but pretty much most of the "civilized" world's.

however the prophet (PBUH) had more than ten wives most of them were old widows some even older than him. now call me crazy but I think if there ever was a pedophile who literally had his pick of the litter, his picks would most likely all be downhill from 20.

You ignored the earlier posts stating that it was common at the time to marry young women. Were people of the past barbaric for marrying young women? The "civilized" world glorifies sexual intercourse between teenagers in movies and novels and they condemn societies that get married young?

Or is it the age difference that bothers you? An old man shouldn't marry a young woman. Is that it? "Poor little girl, she is a slave to the pedophile," they cry.

Well, buddy, you've got hundreds of thousands of narrations out there. I suggest you start looking up A'isha (raa) complaining about getting married to an old man.

 

[neorej]

Well, atleast we know your real motives for being on this thread?

Do we? Or do you assume you do? Please explain, what do you think ARE my motives?

Do you have any sources to back your information up?

The sources I used are the same sources that are used in mosks on a daily basis. Together with historical scripture. Which you undoubtely discard as false information, as I often encounter when discussing history with religious folk.

How are you so sure that the prophet married Aisha at such a young age, have you spoken to him directly?

I'm not sure. I'm not even sure if the good man even existed. But that's not the point, since I don't base my life around him. Since muslims do, it IS a point to them. Since I'm an atheïst, the whole discussion about what Muhammed did or didn't do, is irrelevant in regard to my person. But I'm sure this is a nuance you will not see.

What constitutes as pedophile in your opinion relative to that time in history? Because then I would be willing to bet that some of your ancestors were pedophiles as well.

Pedophile is pedophile, regardless of the time in history. But if you want to speak in relative terms, then the Crusades were a good thing, by European Christian standards, I assume?
You can bet all you want about my ancestors being pedophile, I don't care. I don't base my life on what my ancestors did, I don't pray to my ancestors on a daily basis and I don't try to live my life like my ancestors. If I did, I were a seafaring, racist, slavetrading Dutchman. Maybe a Belgian. And if you go back in time far enough, you might even discover that my ancestors slaughtered wooly mammoths! I can hardly see myself jumping over the fence at the zoo and going after an elephant wearing nothing more than some cloth and a dodgy spear.
Point is, muslims do try to live like Muhammed, they base their lifes on the life of Muhammed.

 

[Instigator]

Do we? Or do you assume you do? Please explain, what do you think ARE my motives?

I'm an atheïst.

.

P.S. I'm largely on your side.

 

[Zapages]

I'm not sure. I'm not even sure if the good man even existed. But that's not the point, since I don't base my life around him. Since muslims do, it IS a point to them. Since I'm an atheïst, the whole discussion about what Muhammed did or didn't do, is irrelevant in regard to my person. But I'm sure this is a nuance you will not see.

All I can say is there is historical records of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), which includes graves, scriptures, and various other things.

 

[neorej]

I see you've got double standards. Did the companions tell your "imam" that Mohammed (pbuh) married his niece?

All the knowledge we have about the Prophet (pbuh) specifically and Islam in general is brought to us from the companions. Without them, the religion wouldn't have reached us.

So why do you accept the idea that Mohammed (pbuh) married his niece? If the companions didn't state this, then where did you get your knowledge from?

Well, let me put it this way; you might understand my position: I have three different sources telling me two different things. Two sources are widely accepted and respected in the Dutch islamic society, the other is a user on a gaming-board using a giant bird as an avatar. You might be able to guess which one of the two I find more reliable. And no, it has nothing to do with the bird.

I understand why he is pedophile in your eyes, but that's because of your twisted standards. Well, to be fair, it's not just yours, but pretty much most of the "civilized" world's.

I'll take my so-called "twisted" standards over blind obedience to a fairy-tale anyday, thank you.

 

[Azih]

...I seriously don't know why I even bother to reply to you. I don't "blindly" follow everything in Saheeh Al Bukhari because of the book's name. I accept all the traditions in it because it survived the test of time and the scruntiny of the scholars.

Jumping in feet first back into an old debate.

The problem is with your 'scrutiny of the scholars' metric. It's an extremely vauge standard to use. Could you clarify?

 

[ZiZ]

You ignored the earlier posts stating that it was common at the time to marry young women.

marrying at a young age was very common back then.

>.>;

 

[RiZ III]

It was never common to marry 9 year olds to grown men.

Hadji, do you condemn suicide bombings?

 

[Hadji]

Well, let me put it this way; you might understand my position: I have three different sources telling me two different things. Two sources are widely accepted and respected in the Dutch islamic society, the other is a user on a gaming-board using a giant bird as an avatar. You might be able to guess which one of the two I find more reliable. And no, it has nothing to do with the bird.

You misunderstand something about Islam.

Your two sources, the ones that highly respected in the Dutch Islamic society, hold no weight against the truth. It's not about who says something, but it is about what they say specifically. As Muslims, we don't follow everything a single scholar said, but we follow what they have to say.

It doesn't matter how popular they are. The only reason that you find them to be more reliable is that you like their answer, that is if you really did get an absurd answer like that.

So, yeah, whatever. Start shouting out that the Prophet (pbuh) got married to his niece. We'll see how many Muslims take you seriously.

The problem is with your 'scrutiny of the scholars' metric. It's an extremely vauge standard to use. Could you clarify?

Clarify what? Clarify the methodology of hadeeth criticism in a single post? If you are really desperate to find out about it, then I suggest "Muqadimat Ibnul Salah". He, Ibn Al Salamh goes through the whole process in a few hundred pages.

It was never common to marry 9 year olds to grown men.

Muslims, see what happens when you reject the hadeeth? You cannot even know if your own prophet got married, let alone how old she was.

Hadji, do you condemn suicide bombings?

Yes, for various reasons.

 

[RiZ III]

Muslims, see what happens when you reject the hadeeth? You cannot even know if your own prophet got married, let alone how old she was.

Muslims, see what happens when you accept rumors dating 2 centuries after Muhammad? You claim that he married a 9 year old.