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[RiZ III]

Muslim unity is impossible when each sect claims that the other side is 'kafir'. Just ask Hadji, a model Sunni. I'm sure he can tell you with a straight face that everyone besides good Sunnis are going to hell.

 

[Linkhero1]

Muslim unity is impossible when each sect claims that the other side is 'kafir'. Just ask Hadji, a model Sunni. I'm sure he can tell you with a straight face that everyone besides good Sunnis are going to hell.

He can't though because it's haram to say that someone is going to hell. Only Allah can be the judge of that.

 

[Hadji]

Riz has got the right idea. Unity is impossible because each side is damning the other to hell. Not only that, but unity is also impossible because of certain aspects of our religions. We'd literally have to let desert some of our practices in order to unite.

The world is not black and white as you seem to want it to be, it is not a case of either Al Kafi is completely authentic or completely inauthentic, but rather it is a case of which hadith in Al Kafi are authentic and which aren't.

Well, looks you haven't read my earlier post thoroughly enough.

The issue of whether Al Kafi is completely authentic or not is not the issue. The question is: Is the hadeeth that I quoted authentic? Does Shaikh Al-Saduq regard the hadeeth in question to be authentic? This is the issue at hand and not the "completeness" of Al Kafi.

Anyways, I'm awaiting a response from you where you demonstrate that the hadeeth in question is authentic or not. If you'd rather send me a PM, then I'm all for that. I don't mind if you post it here since I don't believe that our sects will unite anytime soon.

Edit: You've justified Sahih Al Bukhari's authenticity by citing Sunni scholars and claiming that their concensus is that it is authentic.

Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'a take into consideration four things when it comes to the matters of the religion. Al Qur'an, Al Hadeeth, Al Ijma'a, Al Qiyas. The concensus of the 'ulama isn't comparable to that of Man United fans. Al Bukhari hasn't just been taken as authentic because Mohammed bin Ismael Al Bukhari wanted it to be authentic, but because the scholars through the past centuries see it as that. There are other Sunni hadeeth collections that are meant to be authentic as well, but have failed the test miserably.

The full application of Pentateuchal law is not recognized by Christians. (Essentially God said, "Yo, do over guys!," when He sent Jesus to Earth.) If all you've got are verses from there to substantiate your position, well... it's not going to be a very strong position.

Couldn't one argue that Jesus said that he wasn't sent to abolish the law...? *shrugs* I'll look up some NT verses later.

Hay you guyz, there isnt suppose to be a sunni vs shia thing. Its 1 muslim.
Mkay?

I agree. I tried staying away from this thread because they're starting to scare me. WE are one!

I agree with this, but it seems some sunnis here have a problem with unity, I think those people against unity are the real kafirs.

I'm sure he can tell you with a straight face that everyone besides good Sunnis are going to hell.

He can't though because it's haram to say that someone is going to hell. Only Allah can be the judge of that.

I answer all of you with the Prophet's (pbuh) words:

"My Ummah will divide into seventy-three sects all of which will be in the Fire except one!”

 

[Linkhero1]

Interesting. I've never actually read that before.

Edit: By "Seventy-three sects" does he mean sections? Can you elaborate more on this please.

 

[DSWii60]

Well, looks you haven't read my earlier post thoroughly enough.

Well, it looks like you haven't got a reply or you haven't read my post thoroughly enough. I replied to every point you made, and that's the best you can come up with. Of course, you could just be blind to other points of view aside from your own, and therefore think that your argument holds up.

Edit:

I answer all of you with the Prophet's (pbuh) words:

"My Ummah will divide into seventy-three sects all of which will be in the Fire except one!”

Ok, but where did the Prophet say that you should all be disunited and fight with each other to show which sect is superior. He didn't. He wanted the Ummah to exist as an entity hence why most scholars from whatever sect they are emphasise in unity.

 

[RiZ III]

Riz has got the right idea. Unity is impossible because each side is damning the other to hell. Not only that, but unity is also impossible because of certain aspects of our religions. We'd literally have to let desert some of our practices in order to unite.

Wow.. we actually agree on something.

"My Ummah will divide into seventy-three sects all of which will be in the Fire except one!”

O shit which one will be the right one!!??!

Edit: O and hadji could you cite the sources for this hadith? Bhukari, Dawood,...so on, book# and hadith#. And whether it is considered 'sahih'.

 

[Zapages]

I'm a Sunni who wants unity. I think MeowMeow is too

I want unity as well!

My father and I were discussing that it really shouldn't matter if a guy marries a sunni or shia. What should matter is the other person is a good and practicing Muslim. But that's another story to discuss altogether .

O shit which one will be the right one!!??!

We don't know... Does that mean countries or does the division mean within us, ie. religiously. We just don't know.


Hadji, still haven't answer my question. What do you think about reading a translation of the Holy Quran online from an authentic source? I mean I can read the Holy Quran in arabic and just read it repeatedly or I could actually try to understand the Holy Quran. This question is in response to your statement that reading Quran online is wrong...

 

[RiZ III]

We don't know... Does that mean countries or does the division mean within us, ie. religiously. We just don't know.

Gee I wish Muhammad would have been more clear so so many people wouldn't be damned to hell. If he knew the future, perhaps he could have just said, only follow the Sunnis.

 

[Zapages]

Gee I wish Muhammad would have been more clear so so many people wouldn't be damned to hell. If he knew the future, perhaps he could have just said, only follow the Sunnis.

Division can mean everything. We have to understand that the arabic used in the Holy Quran is very flowery so you get the gist that it could mean division or countries... We don't know, but all we know is that we will be divided and only one group of followers will not go to hell.

 

[RiZ III]

Division can mean everything. We have to understand that the arabic used in the Holy Quran is very flowery so you get the gist that it could mean division or countries... We don't know, but all we know is that we will be divided and only one group of followers will not go to hell.

Yea except this prediction of 73 sects isn't coming from 'flowery Quranic Arabic'. It is coming from Hadith for which the Arabic is not anything like the Quran.

 

[Zapages]

Yea except this prediction of 73 sects isn't coming from 'flowery Quranic Arabic'. It is coming from Hadith.

same thing... The Arabic used at that time was very flowery...

 

[RiZ III]

same thing... The Arabic used at that time was very flowery...

Quranic Arabic isn't anything like the Arabic in the Quran though. It is the speech of a man, it isn't poetic or full of allegories.

edit: Well whatever. It doesn't matter. Didn't mean to derail the discussion you guys had going.

 

[Hadji]

Interesting. I've never actually read that before.

Edit: By "Seventy-three sects" does he mean sections? Can you elaborate more on this please.

Seventy-three sects = seventy-three different Islamic ideologies = 73 versions of Islam

Yes, sections.

This deals with issues of creed, not of fiqh or jurisprudence (eg. Hanafi, Shafi'i), mind you.

Examples of the sects = Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'a, Sufi, Shi'ite, Mu'tazilee, 'Ash'ari, Maturidi, Marji'ee, Jahmi... etc...

Well, it looks like you haven't got a reply or you haven't read my post thoroughly enough. I replied to every point you made, and that's the best you can come up with. Of course, you could just be blind to other points of view aside from your own, and therefore think that your argument holds up.

Or it could be because I agree with the jist of what you said... Especially with this:

If you don't question what you believe and rather you cling stubbornly to your beliefs, there is no way you will ever be able to tell whether you are on the right path or not.

Why are you assuming that I've been born into the creed that I follow? I assure you that this is not the case.

Anyways, I'm still waiting for that PM where you demonstrate that the specific hadeeth is not authentic. Thanks.

Ok, but where did the Prophet say that you should all be disunited and fight with each other to show which sect is superior.

I never said they should fight. All that we should do is correct deviant ideologies by pointing out the flaws of their beliefs to those that are willing to listen. So, overall, it comes down to the receivers if they are willing to look at both side of the issue.

He wanted the Ummah to exist as an entity hence why most scholars from whatever sect they are emphasise in unity.

Scholars emphasis unity? True. But in a different sense. It is true that they say 2:103 -

"And hold fast, all of you together, to the cable of Allah and do not separate..." but the only way that they know that this is possible is if others conform to their beliefs.

Similarly 2:64 -

"Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none other than Allah..."

So, yes, the only way that this agreement can occur, is if one sacrifices some of his beliefs and accepts the way of the other.

This question is in response to your statement that reading Quran online is wrong...

When did I say that?! O__o

O shit which one will be the right one!!??!

Mine, of course! Your so silly sometimes Riz!

Edit: O and hadji could you cite the sources for this hadith? Bhukari, Dawood,...so on, book# and hadith#. And whether it is considered 'sahih'.

Al Baghawi, Sharh al Sunnah, 1/185, Saheeh
Ibnul Arabi (the Maliki Jurist), Ahakaam Al Qur'an, 3/432, Saheeh

There are more scholars of hadeeth, but this should do for now.

The narrator is Ibn Amr.

Gee I wish Muhammad would have been more clear so so many people wouldn't be damned to hell. If he knew the future, perhaps he could have just said, only follow the Sunnis.

“O Messenger of Allaah, who are they?” He replied: “Those who are upon what me and my Companions are today.”

Sounds like Ahlul Sunnah to me. The only sect that constantly condemns innovations in the religion and holds the companions in high regards. I guess you'd fall out of that category Riz, since you see the companions as bad examples.

 

[DSWii60]

Anyways, I'm still waiting for that PM where you demonstrate that the specific hadeeth is not authentic. Thanks.

Actually if you read my post again, I was suggesting that you should reply via PM and then we should continue our discussions via PM.

"Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none other than Allah..."

So, yes, the only way that this agreement can occur, is if one sacrifices some of his beliefs and accepts the way of the other.

Ok, we're talking about unity between different Muslim sects and you've pulled out a verse which does not show at all why Muslims cannot be united as none of us have to make sacrifices to worship Allah as we all already do.

Unity does not mean sacrificing your beliefs. For example, most of my friends at uni are Sunni and I pray with them every day. However this does not mean that I have to pray in the same way as them just the act of praying with them is showing unity.

“O Messenger of Allaah, who are they?” He replied: “Those who are upon what me and my Companions are today.”

Cite where you obtained this section of the hadith please. With link preferably.

 

[CHYME]

“O Messenger of Allaah, who are they?” He replied: “Those who are upon what me and my Companions are today.”

Sounds like Ahlul Sunnah to me. The only sect that constantly condemns innovations in the religion and holds the companions in high regards. I guess you'd fall out of that category Riz, since you see the companions as bad examples.

Seems like an awfully convenient hadeeth for it to be authentic. There's a lot of awfully convenient hadeeths for both Shia and Sunni Muslims.

edit: Something about God judging us by our intentions as well as our actions seems to invalidate that entire hadeeth. Logic ftw.

 

[DSWii60]

Seems like an awfully convenient hadeeth for it to be authentic. There's a lot of awfully convenient hadeeths for both Shia and Sunni Muslims.

In any case its ambiguous. "Those upon what me and my companions are today" could be said to refer to pure Islam before any divisions of groups, it definitely is up to your interpretation whether you want it to refer to the companions of the Prophet or just everyone who was following the Prophet at the time. It'd be interesting to see what the word is in Arabic.

 

[Hadji]

Actually if you read my post again, I was suggesting that you should reply via PM and then we should continue our discussions via PM.

Alright, then I await your PM that includes the reliability of the hadeeth from Usool Al Kafi.

Ok, we're talking about unity between different Muslim sects and you've pulled out a verse which does not show at all why Muslims cannot be united as none of us have to make sacrifices to worship Allah as we all already do.

Uh-oh...

"I bear witness that the is no god but Allah" is the message of the Prophet (pbuh) to the people of Makkah. However, even though they believed that Allah (swt) is their creator, they still asked they committed shirk.

When asking Al-Hussain (raa) for forgiveness, or to lend you strength, or to help you at a certain task, then this is shirk. At least in the perspective of a Sunni. I thought you knew this.

Unity does not mean sacrificing your beliefs. For example, most of my friends at uni are Sunni and I pray with them every day. However this does not mean that I have to pray in the same way as them just the act of praying with them is showing unity.

Do you pray in congregation or separately but in the same area?

Cite where you obtained this section of the hadith please. With link preferably.[/QUOTE]

Can you read Arabic?

Edit: Oh ok, I just saw your last post. Lemme look for Arabic text.

Added Edit:

إن بني إسرائيل تفرقت على اثنتين وسبعين ملة ، وتفترق أمتي على ثلاث وسبعين ملة ، كلهم في النار إلا ملة واحدة قالوا : من هي يا رسول الله ؟ قال : ما أنا عليه وأصحابي

 

[DSWii60]

Alright, then I await your PM that includes the reliability of the hadeeth from Usool Al Kafi.

Let me just repost this:

Shaykh as-Sadūq, the famous Shi'a scholar, didn't believe in the authenticity of all that was in AlKafi. Sayyid al-Khoie points this out in his Mu'jam Rijaal al-Hadith, or "Collection of Men of Narrations", in which he states:

أنّ الشيخ الصدوق : قدّس سرّه : لم يكن يعتقد صحّة جميع مافي الكافي "Shaykh as-Sadūq did not regard all of the traditions in al-Kafi to be Sahih (truthful)."[2]

Al-Khoei also states in his Mu'jam (on the same referenced page):

"لانّ فيها مرسلات وفيها روايات في اسنادها مجاهيل، ومن إشتهر بالوضع والكذب،" :There is within it (al-Kafi) traditions, who's chains of narration contain (known) ignorants, liars and fabricators."

This is not to dismiss al-Kafi in its entirety, as it still contains thousands of authentic narrations. While there are objections about the book that it contains weak narrations, now it has been acknowledged that it is the most authentic book containing most authentic narrations among all the books of ahadiths in muslim world.

There is no way I could find you a link for showing what Shia scholars think of one particular hadith in Al-Kafi, so I think Al Khoei's comments generally on Al Kafi will have to do. Or you could ask a Shia scholars near you what they think.

When asking Al-Hussain (raa) for forgiveness, or to lend you strength, or to help you at a certain task, then this is shirk. At least in the perspective of a Sunni. I thought you knew this.

You are not actually asking "O Hussain, forgive me," rather you are asking Hussain to pray for your forgiveness as he is closer to Allah than you are. It's called intercession and is definitely not shirk.

Do you pray in congregation or separately but in the same area?

In congregation. Does that surprise you that some Muslims can actually get on without fighting?

Can you read Arabic?

Yes, but I can understand very little.

Edit: Like Chyme said it seems very convenient. One question though, before I comment further, do you take the Prophet's daughter Fatima, and his grandsons, and Ali to be included within this group of companions whose example we have to follow to go to heaven?

 

[Hadji]

There is no way I could find you a link for showing what Shia scholars think of one particular hadith in Al-Kafi, so I think Al Khoei's comments generally on Al Kafi will have to do. Or you could ask a Shia scholars near you what they think.

I am honestly not surprised. I also asked that question purposefully because I never met a Shi'ite that have ever stated the reliablity of any of the hadeeths. I hope you are aware that this is a huge issue. Dude, I seriously hope that you find some sort of source or scholars that can provide you with answers to your questions about hadeeths.

Ironically, it took me a matter of minutes to find the classifications of Sunni hadeeths. There is a wide library of material on this subject and it is really simple to get an answer to these questions.

Also, I don't think that Al-Koei's comments "will have to do". Since you cannot apply this to all the Shi'ite hadeeths. You cannot just say, "we don't have a book of authentic hadeeth" and therefore reject all Shi'ite hadeeths, that is illogical. The only reason that you are rejecting this specific hadeeth is because it doesn't appeal to you, not because it is weak. This is a problem. In Islam, we are to accept what Allah (swt) has ordered us to not, not only the orders that appeal to us.

You are not actually asking "O Hussain, forgive me," rather you are asking Hussain to pray for your forgiveness as he is closer to Allah than you are. It's called intercession and is definitely not shirk.

Yes, this intercession is considered to be shirk by Sunnis. Al-Hussain (raa) is dead and cannot hear you. It is not his place to forgive your sins.

In congregation. Does that suprise you that some Muslims can actually get on without fighting?

It surprises me because Al Sistani, and other Shi'ite scholars have issued fatwas that Shi'ites can only perform prayers in congregations with Sunnis if they are in danger. However, their prayers need to be made up later.

One question though, before I comment further, do you take the Prophet's daughter Fatima, and his grandsons, and Ali to be included within this group of companions whose example we have to follow to go to heaven?

Yes, but be aware that we believe that Ali, Fatima, Al Hussain, Al Hassan (raa), all had similar ideologies to that of the companions.

Edit: Like Chyme said it seems very convenient.

I find the wording that Allah (swt) chose in the Qur'an to be much more convenient.

6:159 - As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.

Yes, the word used in Arabic is Shia. How convenient for Sunnis, isn't it?

Sects = Shia = شيعا

 

[GSG Flash]

Gee I wish Muhammad would have been more clear so so many people wouldn't be damned to hell. If he knew the future, perhaps he could have just said, only follow the Sunnis.

Well, Shias do believe that Muhammed (pbuh) did indeed choose a successor and it was Ali, obviously Sunnis believe otherwise.

Anyways, I think unity is possible, Shias and Sunnis have lived peacefully in coexistance, respecting each others beliefs, in many countries for decades, but unity is always broken whenever there is a semblance of Salafi influence in the air. Salafism and Wahabbism is the worst thing that could have and has ever happened to Islam.

There's a reason why Jews are so much more successful than Muslims right now, they all stick together no matter what kind of Jew one is.

Hadji, you should take a lot of your questions to the Sunni-Shia debate at shiachat.com, there are many knowledgeable people there.

 

[DSWii60]

I am honestly not surprised. I also asked that question purposefully because I never met a Shi'ite that have ever stated the reliablity of any of the hadeeths. I hope you are aware that this is a huge issue. Dude, I seriously hope that you find some sort of source or scholars that can provide you with answers to your questions about hadeeths.

Ironically, it took me a matter of minutes to find the classifications of Sunni hadeeths. There is a wide library of material on this subject and it is really simple to get an answer to these questions.

Also, I don't think that Al-Koei's comments "will have to do". Since you cannot apply this to all the Shi'ite hadeeths. You cannot just say, "we don't have a book of authentic hadeeth" and therefore reject all Shi'ite hadeeths, that is illogical. The only reason that you are rejecting this specific hadeeth is because it doesn't appeal to you, not because it is weak. This is a problem. In Islam, we are to accept what Allah (swt) has ordered us to not, not only the orders that appeal to us.

Having a book labelled "authentic hadith" is not what we are after, we simply need to know which hadith are authentic and which aren't. Of course any hadith which conflicts with the Quran is wrong and therefore we immediately reject any such hadith. There are many other criteria aswell and as I am not a scholar I would not be able to tell you about specific narrators and hadith which are deemed to be authentic or not. Like I said you should ask some Shia scholars near you.

The reason I rejected that particular hadith is because it is weak and because of Al Khoei's comments on Al Kafi. This hadith seems to be exactly what Al Khoei meant when he questioned Al Kafi.

Yes, this intercession is considered to be shirk by Sunnis. Al-Hussain (raa) is dead and cannot hear you.

Do you not believe in life after death?

It is not his place to forgive your sins.

Of course it isn't. Like I said, we are simply requesting that he prays for our forgiveness, of course he cannot forgive us.

Surely those whom Allah loves would be in a better position to request forgiveness than sinners like ourselves.

It surprises me because Al Sistani, and other Shi'ite scholars have issued fatwas that Shi'ites can only perform prayers in congregations with Sunnis if they are in danger. However, their prayers need to be made up later.

It's interesting that I've never heard this before. No Shia scholar has ever narrated this in my presence either. A link or reference would be nice

Yes, but be aware that we believe that Ali, Fatima, Al Hussain, Al Hassan (raa), all had similar ideologies to that of the companions.

I find the wording that Allah (swt) chose in the Qur'an to be much more convenient.

6:159 - As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.

Yes, the word used in Arabic is Shia. How convenient for Sunnis, isn't it?

Shia = Group / Sects in Arabic. If anyone created groups, it was the people who elected Abu Bakr as khalif at Saqeefa, despite the Prophet having declared Ali as his successor numerous times during his life. Don't you find it interesting that Prophet Muhammad stopped tens of thousands of people on the way back from the last Hajj to declare that:

"This day I have perfected for you, your religion." What religion is perfect without a plan for the future e.g. successor. Also more interesting is that at the same time, Ali was called to where the Prophet was standing and his arm raised up whilst no else was. I wonder what you think "Man kunto mawla fa hadha Aliyyun Mawla" means? Would the Prophet really stop so many people and call up Ali just to declare that Ali is his friend? Surely the people would have known this anyway as Ali was one of, if not the closest companion of the Prophet.

Edit: The name Shia was given to the Shia as they were in a group who supported Ali during the rule of the first 3 khalifs. Obviously, anyone who is not conforming with the mainstream will be labelled as being part of a group.

 

[Hadji]

GSG Flash, I was on shiachat for a short while. I'm not fond of the members there since they are more aggresive than the usual customers. I had to deal with a good deal of cursing and damning before I realized that they were on shiachat because they aren't open minded to different views.

DSWii360, I'll continue tomorrow. =)

 

[DSWii60]

GSG Flash, I was on shiachat for a short while. I'm not fond of the members there since they are more aggresive than the usual customers. I had to deal with a good deal of cursing and damning before I realized that they were on shiachat because they aren't open minded to different views.

DSWii360, I'll continue tomorrow. =)

Good, I was just going to say I need to sleep now. But we need to wrap things up tomorrow, I have exams and this is completely distracting me.

 

[CHYME]

Seems like an awfully convenient hadeeth for it to be authentic. There's a lot of awfully convenient hadeeths for both Shia and Sunni Muslims.

edit: Something about God judging us by our intentions as well as our actions seems to invalidate that entire hadeeth. Logic ftw.

Reposting for truth.

You really believe that a Shiite with the true intentions of a Muslim will be doomed to hellfire because he's not Sunni? Use your head.

And you're suggesting that all Jews and Christians are doomed to hellfire, their intentions/actions notwithstanding. What kind of sense does this make?

 

[Hadji]

Reposting for truth.

You really believe that a Shiite with the true intentions of a Muslim will be doomed to hellfire because he's not Sunni? Use your head.

And you're suggesting that all Jews and Christians are doomed to hellfire, their intentions/actions notwithstanding. What kind of sense does this make?

Yes, I agree CHYME. The hadeeth is not nullified though. I didn't think that I have to state it, but NOT every single person here is damned to hell. It varies from situation to situation. For example, there are those that live and die and aren't informed of the other side of the story.

So, yes, there is a sort of a generalization at work here. I agree.

FOR DSWii60:

Sorry, I had to look up Sistani's site. =p

http://sistani.org/local.php?modules=nav&nid=5&cid=212&page=7

Please look up his answers to questions number 53 58 91 130 163 and 187. Various mentions of taqiyya here. Thanks. I'll continue with the rest of my response tomorrow.

 

[DSWii60]

Yes, I agree CHYME. The hadeeth is not nullified though. I didn't think that I have to state it, but NOT every single person here is damned to hell. It varies from situation to situation. For example, there are those that live and die and aren't informed of the other side of the story.

So, yes, there is a sort of a generalization at work here. I agree.

FOR DSWii60:

Sorry, I had to look up Sistani's site. =p

http://sistani.org/local.php?modules=nav&nid=5&cid=212&page=7

Please look up his answers to questions number 53 58 91 130 163 and 187. Various mentions of taqiyya here. Thanks. I'll continue with the rest of my response tomorrow.

Sorry, can't understand that link, its all in Arabic.

 

[MeowMeow]

Yah i am sunni, but the thing is this whole sunni vs shia vs sect thing is just plain ridiculous. Do you have any real tangible proof of what happened after Prophet Muhammads departure? Do you think that Prophet Muhammad wanted all these divisions in Islam? Its no different then what happened to the christians after jesus's departure, he did not want any of these christian divisions. So we as muslims are acting no different then the christiand and jews (orthodox vs unorthodox vs whatever else). Your ultimate source and record on how to conduct your life and others should be exclusively The Quran. The more you complicate things, the further you confuse yourself and deviate from the Prophets and revelations true intentions. This is all you need to become 1 muslim.

 

[MeowMeow]

To the muslim guys out there i just have a simple question for you. AND YOU HAVE TO BE HONEST.

Do you get turned on by watching lesbos having sex with each other?

 

[CrushDance]

To the muslim guys out there i just have a simple question for you. AND YOU HAVE TO BE HONEST.

Do you get turned on by watching lesbos having sex with each other?

Why Muslim guys? Some people don't and some do, regardless of gender or views. I don't for example. It's only natural to get aroused by such things nothing to do with religion. The whole concept of religion and "right and wrong/laws" in our societies are that even if something is fun or you want to do it, doesn't make it right. So yeah one could get turned on by such things but not react to them.

If a see a hot girl I get turned on but I don't jump on her.

 

[Hadji]

Having a book labelled "authentic hadith" is not what we are after, we simply need to know which hadith are authentic and which aren't.

Agreed, however, you don't know which hadeeth are authentic and which aren't because you don't even have access to that.

The reason I rejected that particular hadith is because it is weak and because of Al Khoei's comments on Al Kafi. This hadith seems to be exactly what Al Khoei meant when he questioned Al Kafi.

You don't know that it is weak. You just judged that it was weak because you didn't like what it had to say. This is a false way of recognizing what is authentic and what is not.

Do you not believe in life after death?

Yes, however, you asking Al-Hussain (raa) to pray for forgiveness right now is utterly pointless because he cannot hear you.

"This day I have perfected for you, your religion." What religion is perfect without a plan for the future e.g. successor. Also more interesting is that at the same time, Ali was called to where the Prophet was standing and his arm raised up whilst no else was. I wonder what you think "Man kunto mawla fa hadha Aliyyun Mawla" means? Would the Prophet really stop so many people and call up Ali just to declare that Ali is his friend? Surely the people would have known this anyway as Ali was one of, if not the closest companion of the Prophet.

At the time, there were issues between some of the companions and Ali (raa). The Prophet (pbuh) solved these issues by declaring that Ali (raa) is their ally. Also, according to Sunni sources, you cannot prove that the Prophet (pbuh) made anyone his successor. The closest thing that we have is Abu Bakr (raa) being appointed as an Imam of the masjid before the Prophet's (pbuh) death.

Edit: The name Shia was given to the Shia as they were in a group who supported Ali during the rule of the first 3 khalifs. Obviously, anyone who is not conforming with the mainstream will be labelled as being part of a group.

Well dude, today it is an official name that even you folks recognize yourself by: The Shia. I just enjoyed how convenient it was that Allah (swt) used that word in the verse instead of "firqa" or "hizb", but specifically chose the word Shia. It was way more convenient than the hadeeth of 73 imo.

Sorry, can't understand that link, its all in Arabic.

Would you like me to translate Sistani's answers for you?

 

[Hadji]

Blah! Whatever, I'm tired of waiting:

*Translates Sistani's Q&A's*

53: Is this statement true: "It is permissable to prostrate on a carpet with Sunni if in congregation, but not if praying separately."

Answer: Only under taqqiyah it is possible.

58: I am a university student and I pray with Sunnis at the university masjid at thuhur. Is my prayer accepted, since I know that I should be praying in a different way than they do?

Answer: It is permissable under taqqiyah, but read your prayers within yourself in a quiet voice

91: I prayed in a congregation but after I was done, I found out that the person leading the prayer differs in his aqeedah than that of the Imams and the scholars. Is my prayer correct or should I redo it?

Answer: You don't need to redo it since you weren't aware of his ideology at the time of prayer.

130: Can I pray behind Sunnis?

Answer: Only if you are doing it without being truly sincere, but read within yourself the prayers.

163: Can I pray in congregation at hotels in Makkah and Madinah, while knowing that the prayers occur at the masjids?

Answer: Only if you do not break your taqqiyah.

187: I am living in America and I sometimes pray the Friday prayers with Sunnis. Is my prayer accepted?

Answer: Your Friday prayer with them doesn't count as a Thuhur (noon) prayer for you.


Thoughts?

Edit: If you have any doubts in my translation, then I'd advise you to take it up with a Shi'ite that understands Arabic.

 

[DSWii60]

Agreed, however, you don't know which hadeeth are authentic and which aren't because you don't even have access to that. You don't know that it is weak. You just judged that it was weak because you didn't like what it had to say. This is a false way of recognizing what is authentic and what is not.

I am not a scholar and not an expert in hadith like I have said many times. However there are no hadith books written within lets say 400 years of the Prophet's death that contain entirely Sahih hadith. I could find you hadith in Bukhari which are also clearly inauthentic, the concept of having a perfect book full of 100% authentic hadith is impossible as it is impossible to prove that hadith are authentic. We can merely say whether they are "strong" or "weak."

Some examples of Bukhari hadith:

Bukhari (Book of Nikah 3:97) The Prophet said "I saw that most of those entering hell were women". Seems sexist to me whereas Islam emphasises equality.

Bukhari (Book of Nikah 3:57) "The prophet Ibrahim lied three times." I wouldn't trust the message of a Prophet who according to Bukhari lied.

Bukhari (Beginning of Creation 2:251) "Woman was created from the rib, so she will alwayes remain crooked. Leave her crooked." Again, extremely sexist and against what Islam believes in (equality).

Is that enough?

Yes, however, you asking Al-Hussain (raa) to pray for forgiveness right now is utterly pointless because he cannot hear you.

Ok, so you don't agree with intercession even though its been mentioned many times in the Quran that Allah will permit certain people to intercede on our behalf:

# "On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent God allows and whose word He is pleased with" (20:109)
# "And intercession will not avail aught with Him save of him whom He permits" (34:23)
# "And how many an angel is there in the heavens whose intercession does not avail at all except after Allah has given permission to whom He pleases and chooses" (53:26)
# "...And they do not intercede except for him whom He approve..." (21:28)
# "And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him)" (43:86)

So we've established intercession is not shirk and as the Quran says, certain people can intercede for us.
And an example of someone who prayed to the Prophet to intercede on his behalf after the Prophet's death:

Tawassul to the Prophet After his Life Time

THE HADITH OF THE MAN IN NEED

Tabarani, in his "al-Mu'jam al saghir," reports a hadith from 'Uthman ibn Hunayf that:

a man repeatedly visited Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him) concerning something he needed, but Uthman paid no attention to him or his need. The man met Ibn Hunayf and complained to him about the matter - this being after the death (wisal) of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar - so Uthman ibn Hunayf, who was one of the Companions who collected hadiths and was learned in the religion of Allah, said: "Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then come to the mosque, perform two rak'as of prayer therein, and say:

'O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I turn through you to my Lord, that He may fulfill my need

So if this guy could ask Prophet Muhammad for intercession after his death, according to your very own Sunni sources, why can't we request intercession from Hussain, the Prophet's grandson and someone who even you cannot deny, the Prophet loved very much.

At the time, there were issues between some of the companions and Ali (raa). The Prophet (pbuh) solved these issues by declaring that Ali (raa) is their ally. Also, according to Sunni sources, you cannot prove that the Prophet (pbuh) made anyone his successor. The closest thing that we have is Abu Bakr (raa) being appointed as an Imam of the masjid before the Prophet's (pbuh) death.

Ok how about this:

Today, I have perfected your religion for you. Qur'an (al-Ma’idah, the Table spread) 5:3.

“Abu Hurayrah (r) has narrated that one who fasted on 18 Dhul-hijjah will receive a reward equal to 60 months of fasting. This was the day of Ghadir Khum when the Prophet (s), holding ‘Ali bin Abi Talib’s hand, said: Am I not the guardian of the believers? They said: why not, O messenger of Allah! He said: One who has me as his master has ‘Ali as his master. At this ‘Umar bin al-Khattab (r) said: congratulations! O Ibn Abi Talib! You are my master and (the master of) every Muslim. (On this occasion) Allah revealed this verse: Today, I have perfected your religion for you.”

[Khatib Baghdadi related it in Tarikh Baghdad (8:290); Wahidi, Asbab-un-nuzul (p.108); Razi, at-Tafsir-ul-kabir (11:139); Ibn ‘Asakir, Tarikh Dimashq al-kabir (45:176,177); Ibn Kathir, al-Bidayah wan-nihayah (5:464); and Tabarani in al-Mu‘jam-ul-awsat (3:324#).
Ibn ‘Asakir narrated it through Abu Sa‘id al-Khudri in Tarikh Dimashq al-kabir (45:179)
Suyuti said in ad-Durr-ul-manthur fit-tafsir bil-ma’thur (2:259) that the verse (5:3) revealed when the Prophet (s) said on the day of Ghadir Khum:
‘One who has me as his master has ‘Ali as his master’.]

After the narrations of Hadhrath Abu Hurairah and Hadhrath Abu Sa`id it is crystal clear that until the Prophet (s) declared the Wilayat of Ali (as) on the day of Ghadir e Khum, Allah (swt) did not declare the Deen to be perfected until this happened. Allah (swt) linked the Wilayah of ‘Ali (as) to the Deen.

Well dude, today it is an official name that even you folks recognize yourself by: The Shia. I just enjoyed how convenient it was that Allah (swt) used that word in the verse instead of "firqa" or "hizb", but specifically chose the word Shia. It was way more convenient than the hadeeth of 73 imo.

The word Sunni has also been used in a negative manner in the Quran:

15:13 That they should not believe in the (Message); but the ways of the ancients have passed away.

The two words Sunni and Shia both were in use before they starting meaning two different groups of Muslims. Their use in the Quran is therefore no indication of who is correct and who isn't. I could claim that Sunnis follow "the ways of the ancients" and are following outdated practices e.g. a man being able to divorce his wife simply by saying "Divorce" 3 times.

However both words are also used positively in the Quran. Hence such arguments are fruitless as we could only claim that Allah is trying to tell us in the Quran that the Sunnis / Shias are wrong if the words were used exclusively in a negative manner.

Would you like me to translate Sistani's answers for you?

English language link would be better.

I am only going to reply once more, I have many other things I need to be doing and it is quite clear that we are not progressing. If you have any questions do go to shiachat, they are not abusive at all, and they respect everyone's points of views.

 

[DSWii60]

Blah! Whatever, I'm tired of waiting:

*Translates Sistani's Q&A's*

53: Is this statement true: "It is permissable to prostrate on a carpet with Sunni if in congregation, but not if praying separately."

Answer: Only under taqqiyah it is possible.

Yes, this is because Shias prostate using a turbah. Therefore only if you fear for your life should you pray without a turbah.

58: I am a university student and I pray with Sunnis at the university masjid at thuhur. Is my prayer accepted, since I know that I should be praying in a different way than they do?

Answer: It is permissable under taqqiyah, but read your prayers within yourself in a quiet voice

This university student seems to be praying in a similar fashion to Sunnis around him (i.e. arms folded). Therefore his prayers would not be accepted as he is not praying in the correct Shia manner unless he fears for his life and therefore has to pray that way.

91: I prayed in a congregation but after I was done, I found out that the person leading the prayer differs in his aqeedah than that of the Imams and the scholars. Is my prayer correct or should I redo it?

Answer: You don't need to redo it since you weren't aware of his ideology at the time of prayer.

130: Can I pray behind Sunnis?

Answer: Only if you are doing it without being truly sincere, but read within yourself the prayers.

Yes, although we may pray in congregation with Sunnis our intention must be that we are praying by ourselves. This is to show unity, that we are praying together, but also to ensure that our own prayers are accepted.

163: Can I pray in congregation at hotels in Makkah and Madinah, while knowing that the prayers occur at the masjids?

Answer: Only if you do not break your taqqiyah.

I'm not sure I quite understand this answer. Surely taqiyya has nothing to do with choosing to pray in congregation in masjids or in hotels.

187: I am living in America and I sometimes pray the Friday prayers with Sunnis. Is my prayer accepted?

Answer: Your Friday prayer with them doesn't count as a Thuhur (noon) prayer for you.

Thoughts?

Yes, in fact Al Khamenei recommends that after every Friday prayer, we should pray Thuhur just in case the Friday Prayer was not accepted. This is not something that is dependent on whether you are praying with Sunnis or not.

I would suggest that if you have further questions, email Al Seestani directly, his office does reply to emails (eventually) especially if you mentioned that you were a Sunni and didn't understand the reasoning behind these laws.

Edit: If you have any doubts in my translation, then I'd advise you to take it up with a Shi'ite that understands Arabic.

I have no reason to doubt your translation, if we all start doubting everything another human said, we would never progress in life.

And with that I finish my part in this Sunni / Shia discussion. Hopefully, we can discuss something else now.

 

[DSWii60]

Ok, new topic for those of you tired with the Sunni / Shia thing.


What do you guys believe about music? Is it haram completely, are nasheeds allowed, or is all music permissible?

 

[Kapsama]

I answer all of you with the Prophet's (pbuh) words:

"My Ummah will divide into seventy-three sects all of which will be in the Fire except one!”

So how do you know that it's not us Sunnis who will be in the Fire?

 

[Ydahs]

Ok, new topic for those of you tired with the Sunni / Shia thing.


What do you guys believe about music? Is it haram completely, are nasheeds allowed, or is all music permissible?

I'm not sure how to answer this but nasheeds normally don't have music in them, so they should be allowed. Isn't a nasheed an Islamic song without music other than a drum?

I'm unsure about the whole music issue, but I do listen to music myself.

 

[DSWii60]

See I'm not entirely sure either. I listen to people like Native Deen and Sami Yusuf but not Outlandish and people like that.

 

[Evander]

So, question for you guys.

I was given a copy of the Quaran a few years back on a visit to a local mosque. I still haven't gotten around to reading it, though, although I really want to.

What's the best way to get in to it? Should I just start from te begining, or is there a certain place that is better to jump in?

For the record, I'm coming at this with scholarly interest, not looking at converting, or anything. I'm quite content with my own religion, but I enjoy gaining a deeper understanding of others as well.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

maybe i missed it but, This is a long thread, when through some pages so.

Sex in Islam: Speak on it

use of condoms, the multiple wives

Spoiler

husbands?

:lol , just genaral courtship and wooing pre or post marrige.

 

[MeowMeow]

Evander speak to a guy named "humiro"
he is starting to read the quran, there is a whole thread just for that topic. He will help you out.

 

[MeowMeow]

Sex in Islam: Speak on it

I like sex.
Birth Control? no no in islam (i dont know if there was birth control at that time)
Condoms? i dont think there were condoms at that time, so thats why sex was reserved for marriage. But using condoms is smart.

 

[Prine]

I thought condoms were ok as i've been told Sex is not only for reproduction but its completley ok for pleasure. Wife and Husband are encouraged to have sex without having to think about babies.

Am i wrong?

And about the lesbian question. I get aroused by the female form regardless if they are having sex with a man or a women. But I dont really care for lesbian action, so a women kissing a women does nothing. But a naked women on another naked hot women is worth watching.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Well an Iranian told me condoms are available in her country, legal and all. I ask cuz the Pope says they're a no no

Spoiler

and most of us dont care

, and was just wondering...

 

[GSG Flash]

Well an Iranian told me condoms are available in her country, legal and all. I ask cuz the Pope says they're a no no

Spoiler

and most of us dont care

, and was just wondering...

I'm pretty sure condoms are ok, but not sure about birth control pills as they mess with the body.

 

[Linkhero1]

Ok, new topic for those of you tired with the Sunni / Shia thing.


What do you guys believe about music? Is it haram completely, are nasheeds allowed, or is all music permissible?

I think it is but there are certain music like you mentioned which I think are okay. Remember music lovers that the Dajjal will play beautiful music that will attract you.

On another note What do you guys think about Judgement day?

 

[MeowMeow]

But a naked women on another naked hot women is worth watching.

How is that different then me liking 1 naked dude on another? Why is male homosexuality such a sin, but 2 naked chics is ok? Shouldnt the concept of sin apply to lesbians and bisexual women as well? Im so sick of this crap. If im gay im not a muslim. F*CK you asshole.

 

[MeowMeow]

And another thing regarding sects, why would 72 of the sects go to hell automatically when they are not even sure if they are in the right form of islam? Why would God send them automatically to hell regardless of their good deeds and intentions?

If God is so leniant and forgiving towards the christians and Jews, im sure he is just as forigiving to any other true beleiver of God. God favors those who truly beleive in him and his message and good actions regardless of whether your a jew , christian or muslim

 

[Yazan]

How is that different then me liking 1 naked dude on another? Why is male homosexuality such a sin, but 2 naked chics is ok? Shouldnt the concept of sin apply to lesbians and bisexual women as well? Im so sick of this crap. If im gay im not a muslim. F*CK you asshole.

Who said that it isn't haram? It applies to everyone, not just guys.

Hadji and the other: Good work. Lots of interesting things to read

 

[Linkhero1]

How is that different then me liking 1 naked dude on another? Why is male homosexuality such a sin, but 2 naked chics is ok? Shouldnt the concept of sin apply to lesbians and bisexual women as well? Im so sick of this crap. If im gay im not a muslim. F*CK you asshole.

I think you should read this

 

[Hadji]

I am not a scholar and not an expert in hadith like I have said many times. However there are no hadith books written within lets say 400 years of the Prophet's death that contain entirely Sahih hadith. I could find you hadith in Bukhari which are also clearly inauthentic, the concept of having a perfect book full of 100% authentic hadith is impossible as it is impossible to prove that hadith are authentic. We can merely say whether they are "strong" or "weak."

I agree, you are not a scholar of hadith and I suggest that you refrain from commenting on a subject that you have almost no knowledge of. First of all, Al Bukhari was born in the second century and NOT four hundred years after the Prophet (pbuh). Secondly, he did not "write" these hadiths up, but what he did was COLLECT hadiths that were already accepted as authentic, scrutinize them, pray two rika'as to gain a blessing from Allah (swt), and finally put them into his book.

Secondly, you believing that there is no way to prove that a hadith is authentic is a huge problem to you. That means that you are full of doubts about your religion, since pretty much EVERYTHING you believe, that isn't in the Qur'an, is somewhat doubtful. Also "strong" and "weak" are only two of the tens of classifications that Sunni scholars have given hadiths. The science is a lot more complicated than you think.

Some examples of Bukhari hadith:

Bukhari (Book of Nikah 3:97) The Prophet said "I saw that most of those entering hell were women". Seems sexist to me whereas Islam emphasises equality.

You see, this here is the issue. Due to your logic and your personal values, you reject hadith. However, this is not the case with the scholars of Ahlul Sunnah. Instead of relying on what they see as morally correct, they realize that their morals are flawed and bend them to suit the morals that are taught by Islam.

In verse 3:36, Allah (swt) says, "and the male is not like the female..." and in 4:34 "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means."

How can you say that men and women are equal when they are different, both physically and emotionally?

Personally, I'm not affected by feminist movements and I'm won't sacrifice my beliefs to please those that say that women and men are the same and should be treated equally.

I believe that they should be treated fairly, according to their needs and not equally, since they are different.

Bukhari (Book of Nikah 3:57) "The prophet Ibrahim lied three times." I wouldn't trust the message of a Prophet who according to Bukhari lied.

21:58 - 63

--And, by Allah, I shall circumvent your idols after ye have gone away and turned your backs.
--Then he reduced them to fragments, all save the chief of them, that haply they might have recourse to it.
--They said: Who hath done this to our gods? Surely it must be some evil-doer.
--They said: We heard a youth make mention of them, who is called Abraham.
--They said: Then bring him (hither) before the people's eyes that they may testify.
--They said: Is it thou who hast done this to our gods, O Abraham?
--He said: But this, their chief hath done it. So question them, if they can speak.

You have two choices. Either reject the verse in the Qur'an or reject Ibrahim (as).

Bukhari (Beginning of Creation 2:251) "Woman was created from the rib, so she will alwayes remain crooked. Leave her crooked." Again, extremely sexist and against what Islam believes in (equality).

Wow. Great job of taking the hadith out of context. I'm assuming that you copied and pasted this off a Shi'ite website. I suggest you do your own research next time.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah 's Apostle said, "Treat women nicely, for a women is created from a rib, and the most curved portion of the rib is its upper portion, so, if you should try to straighten it, it will break, but if you leave it as it is, it will remain crooked. So treat women nicely."

Is that enough?

Not even close. =)

So we've established intercession is not shirk and as the Quran says, certain people can intercede for us.

I never said that intercession is shirk. I said "this intercession is shirk". Look at my previous post.

Tawassul to the Prophet After his Life Time

THE HADITH OF THE MAN IN NEED

Tabarani, in his "al-Mu'jam al saghir," reports a hadith from 'Uthman ibn Hunayf that:

a man repeatedly visited Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him) concerning something he needed, but Uthman paid no attention to him or his need. The man met Ibn Hunayf and complained to him about the matter - this being after the death (wisal) of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar - so Uthman ibn Hunayf, who was one of the Companions who collected hadiths and was learned in the religion of Allah, said: "Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then come to the mosque, perform two rak'as of prayer therein, and say:

'O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I turn through you to my Lord, that He may fulfill my need

There are two reasons why this hadith doesn't allow for intercession by the dead.

Let us look at the hadith that comes before this one though, that comes through the narration of Uthman ibn Hunayf (raa).

"Tirmidhi relates, through his chain of narrators from 'Uthman ibn Hunayf,
that a blind man came to the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace)
and said, "I've been afflicted in my eyesight, so please pray to Allah for
me." The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said: "Go make
ablution (wudu), perform two rak'as of prayer, and then say:

" 'O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad, the
Prophet of Mercy; O Muhammad [Ya Muhammad], I seek your intercession with
my Lord for the return of my eyesight [and in another version: "for my need
, that it may be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me"].'"

So basically, what Uthman ibn Hunayf (raa) did in the second hadith is mimick what he learned from the previous hadith about the blind man. The first hadith doesn't validate that EVERYONE has the right to seek intercession through Mohammed (pbuh) except for the blind man. However, Uthman ibn Hunayf (raa) repeated what he heard from the Prophet (pbuh) to the person in the second hadith.

That is the first reason. The second is that the hadith isn't authentic. Not because I don't like it, but because Idrees bin Al Attar narrates the hadith, and he isn't an accepted source.


Ok how about this:

“Abu Hurayrah (r) has narrated that one who fasted on 18 Dhul-hijjah will receive a reward equal to 60 months of fasting. This was the day of Ghadir Khum when the Prophet (s), holding ‘Ali bin Abi Talib’s hand, said: Am I not the guardian of the believers? They said: why not, O messenger of Allah! He said: One who has me as his master has ‘Ali as his master. At this ‘Umar bin al-Khattab (r) said: congratulations! O Ibn Abi Talib! You are my master and (the master of) every Muslim. (On this occasion) Allah revealed this verse: Today, I have perfected your religion for you.”

[Khatib Baghdadi related it in Tarikh Baghdad (8:290); Wahidi, Asbab-un-nuzul (p.108); Razi, at-Tafsir-ul-kabir (11:139); Ibn ‘Asakir, Tarikh Dimashq al-kabir (45:176,177); Ibn Kathir, al-Bidayah wan-nihayah (5:464); and Tabarani in al-Mu‘jam-ul-awsat (3:324#).

Once again, the term mawlaah, doesn't necessarily mean master and in many cases it means ally. Also, make sure of your post before copying and pasting them. I looked up what Al Baghdadi said and he doesn't authenticate it. However, there are others like Al Jurqani that calls it a false hadith. Also, you've mentioned Ibn Katheer, but he says that the hadith shouldn't be rejected.

The word Sunni has also been used in a negative manner in the Quran:

15:13 That they should not believe in the (Message); but the ways of the ancients have passed away.

The two words Sunni and Shia both were in use before they starting meaning two different groups of Muslims. Their use in the Quran is therefore no indication of who is correct and who isn't. I could claim that Sunnis follow "the ways of the ancients" and are following outdated practices e.g. a man being able to divorce his wife simply by saying "Divorce" 3 times.

I'm going to drop this point since I don't have the energy to defend it. I just want to mention that the triple divorce thing is accepted by all Sunnis. Ibn Taymiyah, for one, disagrees with the practice.

I am only going to reply once more, I have many other things I need to be doing and it is quite clear that we are not progressing. If you have any questions do go to shiachat, they are not abusive at all, and they respect everyone's points of views.

Is this taqqiyah again? I've already said that I was on Shiachat. I'm not fond of engaging those that curse the companions. They are some of the most hateful people I've certainly met on the net.

Oh and do me a favor next time you respond... stop copying and pasting from websites. Or at least make sure that what you are copying and pasting is authentic. Your last post wasn't challenging, but it surely was long...

Heck, if I wanted to copy and paste, then I'd just copy and paste the whole Qur'an onto here. The Qur'an alone is the best refutation against Shiasm. =p

.............

Anyways, I've read your responses to my quotes from Sistani's page. Looks like you don't have a problem with anything he says. So, would I be wrong in assuming that your life is in danger and that is why you pray with Sunnis?

Hadji and the other: Good work. Lots of interesting things to read

Thanks. ^__^