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[AmMortal]

I think that these are the major signs, some of which you already posted Warrior

Brother,you seem very interested. PM me so we can arrange MSN conversations.

 

[DSWii60]

Yes, this is not a problem, for in these instances, they were only doing it in self defense.

However:

Zararah narrates that I asked a certain question to Imam Baqar (R). He gave me its answer. Another person then asked the same question and the Imam gave him a different answer. Later a third person asked the same question, but the Imam's answer this time was different from the previous two answers. I then asked him: "O, the son of the Messenger (S)! The two persons who just came here to ask you questions were from Iraq and were Shias, yet you gave them contradictory answers". The Imam then answered: "O Zararah! This is good for me as well as for you and this will help us survive and prosper". (Usool Al Kafi, p.37)

This is the type of taqiyyah that Sunnis disapprove of.

I've heard this hadith before and I'm pretty sure you've taken it out of context. I could do the same with a hadith in Sahih Bukhari but that'd be pretty pointless and unconstructive, so I'd rather you posted the entire narration with page reference etc.

 

[Linkhero1]

Brother,you seem very interested. PM me so we can arrange MSN conversations.

I sent you a pm with my msn account.

 

[AmMortal]

I sent you a pm with my msn account.

added you LOL now we're talking lol

 

[CHYME]

It is something Shia's use, which is one of the reasons some Muslim ahluhl bayt Sunni consider them non-muslims

Can you explain this ahlul bayt Sunni Muslim phenomenon?

Also, Hadji, I'm waiting for the book and chapter of the quote you provided. Thx.

 

[Hadji]

Also, Hadji, I'm waiting for the book and chapter of the quote you provided. Thx.

I've heard this hadith before and I'm pretty sure you've taken it out of context.

Chyme, I've already quoted the text in English and I've already provided the name of the book and the page number, Usool Al Kafi, p. 37.

DSWii60, I've bothered to actually borrow the book from a neighbor and I've looked it up. The hadeeth is not taken out of context at all. I'm looking at Usool Al Kafi, by Al Kulaini. The version I carry was printed in Beirut.

I'm looking at page 65, in the first volume of the book. It is the third hadeeth on the page. Would you like me to type it out in Arabic for you too? The only difference that I found between what I quoted in English and what is in the book is that the book includes the complete chain of narrators from Ahmad ibn Idrees all the way to Zurara bin A'ayan.

Edit: I just wanted to mention that the Arabic and English version have the same hadeeth on different pages, for those of you that prolly found my post confusing.

Added edit: Oh and guys, do yourselves a favor and avoid "calling my bluff". I only raise when I carry good cards.

 

[CHYME]

Chyme, I've already quoted the text in English and I've already provided the name of the book and the page number, Usool Al Kafi, p. 37.

I was under the impression that Al-Kafi was divided by books and chapters. Is that not the case?

 

[Hadji]

I was under the impression that Al-Kafi was divided by books and chapters. Is that not the case?

Errr... yes, كتاب فضل العلم - باب اختلاف الحديث... page 65.

Edit: Why not look the hadeeth up yourself instead of doubting my credibility?! Don't you people have access to your own books?

Added edit: Wow, this is an interesting chapter. It is dedicated to hadeeths that show the Shi'ite Imams lying to their people on several occasions. xD I urge all of the Shi'ites around to pick up Usool Al Kafi and look into باب اختلاف الحديث.

 

[CHYME]

Errr... yes, كتاب فضل العلم - باب اختلاف الحديث... page 65.

Edit: Why not look the hadeeth up yourself instead of doubting my credibility?! Don't you people have access to your own books?

http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/books/hadith/al-kafi/index.htm

I'm looking at part 2. Point me to the chapter. I'm trying to look it up.

Edit: n/m I think i found it. Chapter 21.

 

[Hadji]

http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/books/hadith/al-kafi/index.htm

I'm looking at part 2. Point me to the chapter. I'm trying to look it up.

http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/books/hadith/al-kafi/part2/part2-ch21.htm

Hadeeth number 192. =)

The internet is such a convenient thing. It took me forever to find in the actual book. X_x

 

[avaya]

...because Humans are not homosexuals by nature. People become homosexuals because of their environments. Particularly critical is the environment during puberty.

Please don't tell me you actually believe this?

 

[MeowMeow]

I feel like the signs are already happening now.

-I often dreamed of turning the sahara and arabian dessert to a rich beautiful forest garden lol. It would solve so many of our worlds problems. If only i had the first hokages forest jitsu lol :lol

-Time is going by too fast i feel.

-I think men are a dying species and sufficating themselves already.

And the other signs are occuring as well..

CHYME your avatar is sooo cute!! ^__^

 

[CHYME]

CHYME your avatar is sooo cute!! ^__^

Thanks.

Hadji, I read that section of the chapter and I don't know what to make of it. It seems to be missing something. Surely, you realize that you brought forth a very minor detail that bears little significance in the first place. Certainly, as far as I've seen and heard, no Shia leader, individual, or community has ever encouraged lying or double-speak, and it is such that I don't believe that this section refers to or commends such an event.

 

[Oblivion]

what happens to gay muslims? are they still considered muslims?? do gay muslims practice their religion even though they're castigated?

Im a gay muslim, and here is what i think about it:

I wrote this rant in another forum a while ago (i was very pissed off in the people who i was dealing with)

A person's degree of homosexuality should be irrelevant. I can understand why during those times, religious leaders discouraged homosexuality (didn't want the people to stop reproducing or something), but I don't believe god would punish a person for that. As long as the relationship you have is consensual, you should be free to do whatever you want. Otherwise, God would seem like quite the jerk to damn you to hell for eternity for not giving you a choice in the matter.

 

[Hadji]

Hadji, I read that section of the chapter and I don't know what to make of it. It seems to be missing something. Surely, you realize that you brought forth a very minor detail that bears little significance in the first place. Certainly, as far as I've seen and heard, no Shia leader, individual, or community has ever encouraged lying or double-speak, and it is such that I don't believe that this section refers to or commends such an event.

Chyme, I did not simply quote one of your scholars, but I did much more than that, I quoted your own Imam Baqir. The hadeeth was recorded by your own Thiqatul Islam Al Kulaini.

Think about it logically, if Imam Baqir lied to his followers, then why wouldn't Shi'te scholars today lie to their followers as well?

If you don't accept your own Imams, then reject your own hadeeths, then what do you go by? The Shi'ite scholars of today didn't create Shi'ism, they've learned it from the knowledge that was passed down by the Imams and their words that were recorded in the books of hadeeth.

 

[Zapages]

Sorry guys, I haven't been posting much. I've been extremely busy with School.

Hadji, reading the translation of the Holy Quran on the internet to understand it better, especially from reputable websites is ok, at least in my humble opinion. What do you think...

Warrior003, nearly every single one of the minor signs are true.

Linkhero1, most of the signs are turning towards them in our life time... Its getting really scary. IMHO...

Future

24. The number of men will decrease, whilst the number of women will increase, until for every man there are 50 women. This is already happening, women population, overall is starting to exceed the population of men

25. The Euphrates will reveal a treasure of gold, and many will die fighting over it, each one hoping to be the one who gains
the treasure. My guess is gold is oil from the ground...

26. The Romans (Europeans) will come to a place called A’maq or Wabiq, and an army of the best people will go forth from Madinah to face them. My guess is gold is oil from the ground...

35. Jesus will kill the Antichrist at the gate of Ludd (Lod in present-day Israel, site of an airport and a major Israeli military base). Really scary... How this so true...

41. A great fire in the Hijaz, seen by the inhabitants of Busra. Atomic Bomb??? Something like that, we don't know...

42. Three major armies will sink into the earth: one in the east, one in the west, one in Arabia. The Chinese, Arabs, The West(Europeans/American)

43. An Abyssinian leader with thin shins will destroy the Ka’bah. The destruction of the Ka'bah. O_O, truly sad.

44. The huge cloud of smoke. Atomic war fare. Don't know, a guess

 

[lopaz]

Sorry guys, I haven't been posting much. I've been extremely busy with School.

Hadji, reading the translation of the Holy Quran on the internet to understand it better, especially from reputable websites is ok, at least in my humble opinion. What do you think...

Warrior003, nearly every single one of the minor signs are true.

Linkhero1, most of the signs are turning towards them in our life time... Its getting really scary. IMHO...

Future

24. The number of men will decrease, whilst the number of women will increase, until for every man there are 50 women. This is already happening, women population, overall is starting to exceed the population of men

25. The Euphrates will reveal a treasure of gold, and many will die fighting over it, each one hoping to be the one who gains
the treasure. My guess is gold is oil from the ground...
26. The Romans (Europeans) will come to a place called A’maq or Wabiq, and an army of the best people will go forth from Madinah to face them. My guess is gold is oil from the ground...

35. Jesus will kill the Antichrist at the gate of Ludd (Lod in present-day Israel, site of an airport and a major Israeli military base). Really scary... How this so true...

41. A great fire in the Hijaz, seen by the inhabitants of Busra. Atomic Bomb??? Something like that, we don't know...

42. Three major armies will sink into the earth: one in the east, one in the west, one in Arabia. The Chinese, Arabs, The West(Europeans/American)

43. An Abyssinian leader with thin shins will destroy the Ka’bah. The destruction of the Ka'bah. O_O, truly sad.

44. The huge cloud of smoke. Atomic war fare. Don't know, a guess

Oil is made of oil

 

[castle007]

Oil is made of oil

:|

I have been reading this thread, and you seem like an awesome person to hang out with, or at least have a discussion.....

 

[MeowMeow]

I want the deserts of the world to turn green so we can eliminate poverty

I want peace and prosperity to all nations of the world (is that wishful thinking?)

I want to minimize pollution and keep the earth healthy and preserve our endangered species.

Dear Allah, give people the knowledge, wisdom, and the concious to make such differences!
Amen!

 

[MeowMeow]

ISREAL

I dont know if we have touched on this subject, but what do you guys think?

I do NOT support the creation of Isreal for several reasons:

-Illegal occupation of palestenian land.
-Zionism (many jews do NOT support zionism and the creation of isreal)
-Fusion of the torah with politics. religion + politics = disaster. (including the muslim countries with shariah law)
-Jews still beleive israel is their promised holy land.

I know that the reason why they created isreal is because they no longer want to be persecuted and they wanted their own homeland...but the way they are treating palestinians is REALLY SHITTY.

We could create a whole thread on this, but just a brief response would be cool.

 

[Hadji]

I await responses from the Shi'ites.

 

[DSWii60]

Sorry I was sleeping and then had to do some revision this morning.

Shaykh as-Sadūq, the famous Shi'a scholar, didn't believe in the authenticity of all that was in AlKafi. Sayyid al-Khoie points this out in his Mu'jam Rijaal al-Hadith, or "Collection of Men of Narrations", in which he states:

أنّ الشيخ الصدوق : قدّس سرّه : لم يكن يعتقد صحّة جميع مافي الكافي "Shaykh as-Sadūq did not regard all of the traditions in al-Kafi to be Sahih (truthful)."[2]

Al-Khoei also states in his Mu'jam (on the same referenced page):

"لانّ فيها مرسلات وفيها روايات في اسنادها مجاهيل، ومن إشتهر بالوضع والكذب،" :There is within it (al-Kafi) traditions, who's chains of narration contain (known) ignorants, liars and fabricators."

This is not to dismiss al-Kafi in its entirety, as it still contains thousands of authentic narrations. While there are objections about the book that it contains weak narrations, now it has been acknowledged that it is the most authentic book containing most authentic narrations among all the books of ahadiths in muslim world.

Therefore, although of course most of the traditions in Al-Kafi are authentic, some are not as Al Kulaini was not infallible and could have included some incorrect hadith. Al Kafi is not the Quran so you cannot take it to be 100% perfect. I could find some hadith in e.g. Sahih Al Bukhari which are not authentic and yet are included within the book aswell, but I do not doubt the authenticity of most of the hadith it contains.

 

[Linkhero1]

Hello my Muslim brothers. I have questions about what happens to someone after they die. I know that you will be questioned and you'll get a taste of heaven or hell, but can someone give me a better understanding of what happens?

 

[Hadji]

Sorry I was sleeping and then had to do some revision this morning.

Therefore, although of course most of the traditions in Al-Kafi are authentic, some are not as Al Kulaini was not infallible and could have included some incorrect hadith. Al Kafi is not the Quran so you cannot take it to be 100% perfect. I could find some hadith in e.g. Sahih Al Bukhari which are not authentic and yet are included within the book aswell, but I do not doubt the authenticity of most of the hadith it contains.

The issue of whether Al Kafi is completely authentic or not is not the issue. The question is: Is the hadeeth that I quoted authentic? Does Shaikh Al-Saduq regard the hadeeth in question to be authentic? This is the issue at hand and not the "completeness" of Al Kafi.

Saheeh Al Bukhari is regarded as the most authentic book after the Qur'an by most of the scholars of Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'a. However, over the centuries, there have been a few hadeeths, something like three that have been under scrutiny by Sunnis themselves. Yet, the concensus leans toward it being completely authentic. In any case, a Shi'ite's view of Saheeh Al Bukhari being inauthentic is natural but none of our concern.

Editted: I also wanted to mention that "Al Jami' Al Saheeh", now known as Saheeh Al Bukhari was originally written as a collection of saheeh hadeeths. It appears to me that the intention of Al Kulaini is similar, well, at least that was the impression that I got from reading his intro, adding to this is the fact that he doesn't weaken any hadeeths in the book itself.

 

[Instigator]

ISREAL

I dont know if we have touched on this subject, but what do you guys think?

I do NOT support the creation of Isreal for several reasons:

-Illegal occupation of palestenian land.
-Zionism (many jews do NOT support zionism and the creation of isreal)
-Fusion of the torah with politics. religion + politics = disaster. (including the muslim countries with shariah law)
-Jews still beleive israel is their promised holy land.

I know that the reason why they created isreal is because they no longer want to be persecuted and they wanted their own homeland...but the way they are treating palestinians is REALLY SHITTY.

We could create a whole thread on this, but just a brief response would be cool.

Who cares about the tired subject of Israel? It's not you're going to find lots of support anyway.

Now the more interesting question is what about the teapot-worshipping lady from Malaysia and the government crackdown against her?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4692039.stm

Or the supposedly secular Turkish state's strict support of Sunni Islam at the expense of all other Islam varieties and faiths?

http://www.religioscope.com/info/notes/2002_023_alevis.htm

Why are these countries failing so bad at religious tolerance?

 

[Hadji]

Who cares about the tired subject of Israel? It's not you're going to find lots of support anyway.

Now the more interesting question is what about the teapot-worshipping lady from Malaysia and the government crackdown against her?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4692039.stm

Or the supposedly secular Turkish state's strict support of Sunni Islam at the expense of all other Islam varieties and faiths?

http://www.religioscope.com/info/notes/2002_023_alevis.htm

Why are these countries failing so bad at religious tolerance?

Well, of course it wouldn't make sense to an atheist. In your eyes there is no truth in any religion. In the eyes of theists, we understand why societies and governments prefer their religion over other views. There is a limit to how much a theist can tolerate false ideologies, for if they cross the line, they would only be acting against their own religion.

Put yourself in their shoes. Why would you help members of a false belief build worship areas that contradict with your belief and give glory to those that insult your god?

 

[RiZ III]

Put yourself in their shoes. Why would you help members of a false belief build worship areas that contradict with your belief and give glory to those that insult your god?

Suddenly I feel like I have been transported back a thousand years. That said, the teapot lady really had it coming, I mean come on! :lol

 

[Hadji]

As I was saying, atheists... and Qur'anis (hadeeth rejectors)... won't be able to relate.

 

[avaya]

Put yourself in their shoes. Why would you help members of a false belief build worship areas that contradict with your belief and give glory to those that insult your god?

Because we don't live in the bronze age?#

EDIT: Beaten.

Really no excuse for what's happening in Malaysia, not talking about the teapot lady, talking about the marginalisation of the Chinese and Indian populations and the active discrimination perpetuated against them. The state is becoming more hardline, maybe the election losses will stem that tide of stupidity.

 

[Hadji]

Because we don't live in the bronze age?

So, theists should go against their religions for the sake of "modernity"?

 

[avaya]

So, theists should go against their religions for the sake of "modernity"?

Earlier in this thread I thought it was proven that the Quran expects good Muslims to tolerate non-believers. So why are you failing to be a good Muslim? The Teapot lady was harming no one.

 

[RiZ III]

So, theists should go against their religions for the sake of "modernity"?

For the sake of peace and sanity perhaps? The world already tried this whole 'my god can beat your god' thing, it was called the dark ages.

edit:

And this:

Earlier in this thread I thought it was proven that the Quran expects good Muslims to tolerate non-believers. So why are you failing to be a good Muslim?

 

[Instigator]

Well, of course it wouldn't make sense to an atheist. In your eyes there is no truth in any religion. In the eyes of theists, we understand why societies and governments prefer their religion over other views. There is a limit to how much a theist can tolerate false ideologies, for if they cross the line, they would only be acting against their own religion.

Put yourself in their shoes. Why would you help members of a false belief build worship areas that contradict with your belief and give glory to those that insult your god?

What?

Put yourself in their shoes, particularly those Turkish shoes. Why would the secular Turkish state care for one belief over the other? If in your eyes, secular means nothing to you then all Western governments are warranted to harass and discriminate against their Muslim citizens, just because they are those crazy, violent 'Mahomedans', a threat to good, law-abiding Christians, the true followers of God.

A country is not a tribe anymore but a collective of different groups. Some countries still have one group trying to dominate all others, but other countries can be more reasonable and have a more measured response when dealing with these different groups and their interests for the sake of internal peace and harmony. And the two countries mentionned here are supposed to be progressive models in the Muslim world so the fundamentalist religious excuse doesn't fly.

 

[lopaz]

:|

I have been reading this thread, and you seem like an awesome person to hang out with, or at least have a discussion.....

It's great that we're on the internet, I can convince myself you aren't being sarcastic. WIN.

 

[Hadji]

For the sake of peace and sanity perhaps? The world already tried this whole 'my god can beat your god' thing, it was called the dark ages.

Your true colors are showing Riz. I find it interesting that you would actually sell your beliefs if they were seen as insane or old fashioned. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.

What?

Put yourself in their shoes, particularly those Turkish shoes. Why would the secular Turkish state care for one belief over the other? If in your eyes, secular means nothing to you then all Western governments are warranted to harass and discriminate against their Muslim citizens, just because they are those crazy, violent 'Mahomedans', a threat to good, law-abiding Christians, the true followers of God.

You misunderstand me. I expect Christian governments to treat Muslims like that. Heck, they'd be betraying Jesus if they let "those foul Mohamedans" build mosques to worship their "moon god."

Of course, I'd rather have them not discriminate against Muslims, but *shrugs* I can't really say that I believe that there are any real Christian governments out there. 'Cept for the Vatican of course.

 

[Karakand]

I expect Christian governments to treat Muslims like that. Heck, they'd be betraying Jesus if they let "those foul Mohamedans" build mosques to worship their "moon god."

What are you basing this on?

 

[CHYME]

What are you basing this on?

Warped logic.

 

[Karakand]

Well the lovely thing about Christianity is the high degree of ambiguity.

I just want to know which ambiguities he was using to justify that, or even the notion of a "Christian government" at all.

 

[RiZ III]

Your true colors are showing Riz. I find it interesting that you would actually sell your beliefs if they were seen as insane or old fashioned. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.

I don't need to sell my beliefs because God spoke clearly when he said there is no compulsion in religion. What isn't surprising is you holding onto you your warped logic and condoning oppression and promoting crusader ideology.

edit: But.. nvm. We both know why we differ. You guys have fun predicting the end of the world.

 

[Hadji]

Well the lovely thing about Christianity is the high degree of ambiguity.

I just want to know which ambiguities he was using to justify that, or even the notion of a "Christian government" at all.

Once again, I'm not aware of a Christian government existing at all. However, there are occasions where laws have been passed where Christians have limited Islamic practices.

http://islamizationwatch.blogspot.com/2008/02/austrian-province-bans-mosque.html

There are a few verses in Exodus that could justify this behavior too:

Exd 23:24 Do not worship the gods of these other nations or serve them in any way, and never follow their evil example. Instead, you must utterly conquer them and break down their shameful idols.
Exd 23:25 "You must serve only the Lord your God. If you do, I will bless you with food and water, and I will keep you healthy.


Exd 23:32 "Make no treaties with them and have nothing to do with their gods.
Exd 23:33 Do not even let them live among you! If you do, they will infect you with their sin of idol worship, and that would be disastrous for you."

You get the idea.

Warped logic.

DSWii60 would probably find you more useful if you assisted him with defending my taqqiya argument.

I don't need to sell my beliefs because God spoke clearly when he said there is no compulsion in religion. What isn't surprising is you holding onto you your warped logic and condoning oppression and promoting crusader ideology.

Once again, "no compulsion in religion" only applies to forced conversions. Your understanding of your own religion is fascinating to me. You are like a Jew who discarded all 613 laws in the Old Testament and kept the ten commandments, but wasn't able to follow even those correctly.

 

[Karakand]

Once again, I'm not aware of a Christian government existing at all.

Because it's a fairly oxymoronic concept. Part of what got Jesus crucified in the end was precisely that he didn't establish a Christian state. (i.e. He wasn't the messiah that rode in on a white horse and smashed the occupying Roman forces.) Even today the Holy See "renders unto Caesar" when it comes to dealing with the neighboring Italian authorities.

However, there are occasions where laws have been passed where Christians have limited Islamic practices.

http://islamizationwatch.blogspot.com/2008/02/austrian-province-bans-mosque.html

I don't dispute Christians interfering with Muslim right to worship. There's a history of that ever since the Prophet began preaching the message. I dispute whether this is a Christian act in and of itself. Dictating who can build what where is something the civil authorities decide, not the Church(es). (Again "render unto Caesar".)

Should a Christian get in your face and try and convert you? (i.e. "Spread the Good Word.") Yeah. But this is not quite the same thing as outright preventing you from worshiping by forbidding you to build a house of God or using the civil authorities to enact legislation singling out other religious groups.

There are a few verses in Exodus that could justify this behavior too:

Exd 23:24 Do not worship the gods of these other nations or serve them in any way, and never follow their evil example. Instead, you must utterly conquer them and break down their shameful idols.
Exd 23:25 "You must serve only the Lord your God. If you do, I will bless you with food and water, and I will keep you healthy.


Exd 23:32 "Make no treaties with them and have nothing to do with their gods.
Exd 23:33 Do not even let them live among you! If you do, they will infect you with their sin of idol worship, and that would be disastrous for you."

You get the idea.

The full application of Pentateuchal law is not recognized by Christians. (Essentially God said, "Yo, do over guys!," when He sent Jesus to Earth.) If all you've got are verses from there to substantiate your position, well... it's not going to be a very strong position.

 

[DSWii60]

The issue of whether Al Kafi is completely authentic or not is not the issue. The question is: Is the hadeeth that I quoted authentic? Does Shaikh Al-Saduq regard the hadeeth in question to be authentic? This is the issue at hand and not the "completeness" of Al Kafi.

Saheeh Al Bukhari is regarded as the most authentic book after the Qur'an by most of the scholars of Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'a. However, over the centuries, there have been a few hadeeths, something like three that have been under scrutiny by Sunnis themselves. Yet, the concensus leans toward it being completely authentic.

Editted: I also wanted to mention that "Al Jami' Al Saheeh", now known as Saheeh Al Bukhari was originally written as a collection of saheeh hadeeths. It appears to me that the intention of Al Kulaini is similar, well, at least that was the impression that I got from reading his intro, adding to this is the fact that he doesn't weaken any hadeeths in the book itself.

Like I said, Al Kulaini was not perfect he could have included a few hadith that are false by mistake. Al Bukhari has done the same thing as well. He included hadith which he thought were authentic, but there are more than 3 hadith in Bukhari which are questionable, there is no way that Bukhari is completely authentic.

The world is not black and white as you seem to want it to be, it is not a case of either Al Kafi is completely authentic or completely inauthentic, but rather it is a case of which hadith in Al Kafi are authentic and which aren't. Similarly with Sahih Al Bukhari, it was written by a human and therefore mistakes are possible unlike the Quran which is the word of Allah and therefore cannot be false. The science of whether hadith are correct or not is a very complicated one and you seem to have distilled it down to which book the hadith are narrated in and whether you think that book is authentic or not.

In any case, a Shi'ite's view of Saheeh Al Bukhari being inauthentic is natural but none of our concern.

In this case, why should you thinking Al-Kafi is inauthentic be my concern? I'll tell you why, because I actually care about what others think about my faith and I take on board every criticism thrown at me and try to find a solution. If I was ever presented with a problem which I could not solve then I would be able to evaluate whether or not I should continue to have faith.

If you don't question what you believe and rather you cling stubbornly to your beliefs, there is no way you will ever be able to tell whether you are on the right path or not. By evaluating our beliefs we can strengthen them further and have true faith rather than believing in whatever our parents believed in.


Edit: You've justified Sahih Al Bukhari's authenticity by citing Sunni scholars and claiming that their concensus is that it is authentic. That way I could justify anything:

"Manchester United fan says Manchester United are the best in the world."
"Bush Sr. says Bush Jr. is a great President."
"Sunni scholar says Al Bukhari is authentic."

You get the point.

 

[EviLore]

24. The number of men will decrease, whilst the number of women will increase, until for every man there are 50 women.

Sounds good, I'll stock up on energy drinks.

 

[MeowMeow]

Hay you guyz, there isnt suppose to be a sunni vs shia thing. Its 1 muslim.
Mkay?

 

[DSWii60]

Hay you guyz, there isnt suppose to be a sunni vs shia thing. Its 1 muslim.
Mkay?

I'd prefer Shias and Sunnis to show some unity aswell. Hadji if you want to debate any more, PM me please, lets show a united front in this thread.

 

[CHYME]

Hay you guyz, there isnt suppose to be a sunni vs shia thing. Its 1 muslim.
Mkay?

I believe it all started when Hadji facetiously joked that Shia weren't Muslims. Except he wasn't joking, because it seems he believes it. And in his defense came the OP and some other nut.

 

[Instigator]

Integration not working too well.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,543344,00.html

A new study has found that the practice of forced marriage among immigrants in Britain is much more common than previously assumed. Thousands of young girls -- and boys -- have gone missing, many of whom might have been abducted by their own parents.

Nora* was only one year old when her fate was decided. "My father promised my grandmother that my marriage would be arranged," says the young woman from the southern English city of Luton. Her parents didn't even like the groom.

In fact, as Nora puts it, "No one had the courage to fight for me." And, so, when she was still a teenager, Nora's parents took her to Pakistan and forced her to marry a man she didn't love. Her father wept during the wedding ceremony but he kept his promise to her grandmother despite the misery caused to his young daughter.

Nora's case and many forced marriages like it has been attracting mounting public attention in Britain. Sociologist Nazia Khanum produced a 90-page report about her hometown of Luton. It took her a full year -- and much longer than she had predicted -- to gain access to the subjects of her study. "I first had to win their trust," Khanum told SPIEGEL ONLINE. When she published it recently she could be sure of maximum attention because it came shortly after the minister responsible for child safety, Kevin Brennan, had told a parliamentary committee that the problem of forced marriage was far greater than previously thought.

Take, for example, the northern English city of Bradford. The majority of the city's population of 500,000 is Muslim. Brennan shocked his fellow MPs when he reported that 33 Bradford children under 16 of age have disappeared without trace. He wasn't sure if the police in Bradford were even looking for the children.

According to Brennan's report, the statistics look similar in an additional 14 communities with a high percentage of immigrants. All told, hundreds of children have disappeared from the school registers in Great Britain -- whereabouts unknown.

A Question of National Identity?

The figures have triggered a public debate about religion, archaic family traditions and British identity. The government now estimates that 3,000 forced marriages take place in Britain per year.

Even Khanum doubts these numbers. In Luton alone, each year sees 300 calls to an emergency telephone line for victims of forced marriages. "We're dealing with something here that happens in secrecy," Khanum says. She estimates that there could be about 4,000 cases nationwide each year of children and young adults who are forced to marry and taken out of the country, both against their will.

The sociologist has found girls living like prisoners in their own families. Even girls who do extremely well in school and are preparing for university -- are forced into marriage, some at 16 or younger. Khanum has examples of children who were promised enticing vacations in the countres their families came from. And then, right after they arrive, they are suddenly told that there will be no trip back because the groom is already waiting.

According to Khanum, the girls are usually cowed into submission by threats. They are warned that if they refuse to wed their arranged partner, the dishonor will force her parents to divorce, for example. Or that the mother will commit suicide. They are bribed with gifts and penalized with rape. Moreover, not all of the disappearing children are girls. In fact, 15 percent of all cases concern young boys forced into marriage.

Khanum also heard of one case in which the family of a severely disabled boy obtained a bride for him from abroad. The young girl was shocked when she met her husband for the first time. "Her in-laws used unimaginable violence to force her to consummate the marriage," Khanum says. The young woman succeeded, however, in escaping to a woman's home.

'I Only Wailed, Even in the Wedding Video'

Even when the women manage to escape from the grip of the families, fear remains. Emine,* a student, is in hiding in Luton. She flew with her parents to Pakistan for a vacation. Once there, her parents forced her to marry a man who only married her so he could get legal residency in Great Britain. "I just cried, even in the wedding video," says Emine. "But no one cared."

After the wedding, Emine's relatives made it clear to her that she was her husband's subject. "I had to do whatever he told me to," Emine says. She returned to England with him after three years and left him. Her ex-husband came to terms with it, but not her parents or brother. They have threatened to kill her because she has brought "shame" on the family. Emine is dependent on an association in Luton that helps women. She is an outsider in her old circle of friends because she refused to obey her parents.

Matchmaking's Worrying Pop Appeal

The large number of victims and their testimony have fueled a debate -- originally prompted by the terrorist attacks of July 2005 -- about the values of British Muslims and of British society. Some 1.6 million Muslims live in Britain, which represents about 3 percent of the population. That seems like a small figure at first glance, but Muslims have on average significantly more children than other groups. In many parts of London and in the old industrial cities of northern England, Muslims form a rapidly growing minority. In some places, they will soon be in the majority.

In the past, the British state has tried to keep out of issues affecting ethnic minorities. Immigrants from the empire's former colonies worked in the low-wage sector -- and demanded little more. The United Kingdom was considered the home of multiculturalism. You didn't have to speak English to get by. Many official forms are available not only in English, but in Arabic, Urdu and Bengali as well.

The state also kept out of religious questions, allowing radicals to redefine archaic practices, such as wife-beating, as an expression of cultural identity. Until 2001, Islamic hatemongers were allowed to invoke holy war.

After the terrorist attacks of 2005 the British government started demanding that immigrants learn English and commit themselves to British values. But as recently as six weeks ago, Archbishop Rowan Williams (more...), the head of the Anglican Christians, was openly pondering the incorporation of parts of Sharia into the British legal system.

Last fall, the BBC scored a quota hit with the show "Arrange Me a Marriage" in which British singles looked for their dream partners with the help of an Asian matchmaker. Arranged marriage, a common practice in immigrant families, was suddenly fashionable. The scandal of the missing children is likely to put an end to this trend. Even though the vast majority of arranged couples are formed voluntarily, the practice is falling into disrepute.

The old English imperative that the state keep out of people's private lives is losing force and, with it, the policy of non-intervention in the affairs of the former colonies in Asia and Africa. The parliament's domestic affairs committee is demanding that British authorities try to locate the vanished teenagers.

Parliament's first step will be to summon employees of the British embassy in Pakistan to answer questions. Demands for heightened control of the religious community are getting louder, along with calls for an end to the respect of religious sensitivities. Muslim representatives, however, like to recall that forced marriage is also practiced in other cultures in which the father plays a dominant role in the family.

Taking More Action

The East London borough of Tower Hamlets has the highest number of arranged marriages each year. The borough encompasses a large area east of the Tower of London, including famous Brick Lane with its Asian restaurants and discos. Sixteen girls are estimated to be missing from here at the moment. Tony Finnegan, speaker of the borough's administration, confirms the figure. But he told SPIEGEL ONLINE: "Children can be missing for many reasons. We take forced marriages seriously, but we don't believe that it has anything to do with the children's disappearances."

Khanum can't get over this position: "If the community refuses to recognize the problem, it won't do anything to change it. We must finally expose these human rights violations."

Nora, on the other hand, has regular contact with her parents again. "Sometimes I hate them, but this makes me feel guilty," says the young woman. "If I had grown up in another culture, my parents would never have been forced to do such things to me."

Nora has returned to Luton, together with her husband. She doesn't want to be his wife, but she won't consider divorce. Obedience takes priority.

*Names have been changed

 

[Linkhero1]

Hay you guyz, there isnt suppose to be a sunni vs shia thing. Its 1 muslim.
Mkay?

I agree. I tried staying away from this thread because they're starting to scare me. WE are one!

Sounds good, I'll stock up on energy drinks.

It's already happening

 

[GSG Flash]

Hay you guyz, there isnt suppose to be a sunni vs shia thing. Its 1 muslim.
Mkay?

I agree with this, but it seems some sunnis here have a problem with unity, I think those people against unity are the real kafirs.

I mean the new president of our muslim shia club (or rather the muslim club that follows the teaching of Ahlul Bayt) at my university is a sunni for heaven's sake, I don't understand what the problem is with the guys here.

 

[Linkhero1]

I agree with this, but it seems some sunnis here have a problem with unity, I think those people against unity are the real kafirs.

I mean the new president of our muslim shia club (or rather the muslim club that follows the teaching of Ahlul Bayt) at my university is a sunni for heaven's sake, I don't understand what the problem is with the guys here.

I'm a Muslim who wants unity. I think MeowMeow is too