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[Hadji]

all of the hadiths regarding female circumcision are weak and most islamic scholars have agreed they are not legitimate.

Not this one. This hadeeth, in Musnad Abu Dawood, in classified as authentic by Al-Albani. Also, who are the scholars that regard all these hadeeths to be weak?

 

[Azih]

Well some of the ones they arrested are clearly terrorists (i remember a tape on the news about them planing it out clearly, and I think one of the guys was found with a ton of explosive material when he got arrested).

Dude the alleged 'ring leader' the 44 year old guy was released yesterday on bail with the most serious charge against him dropped months ago.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe..._suspect_freed_071105/20071105?hub=TopStories

And two days ago all the charges against him were dropped

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080415.wterrorcase0415/BNStory/National/home

 

[Azih]

Moderate muslims are the hundreds of millions that don't shove religion or a bomb up my ass. Bonus points when they dislike the ones that do shove bombs and religion as much as I do.

See your definition of 'moderate muslim' and kobashi's differ greatly. That's one of the challenges. I like your definition much better by thee way.

 

[Hadji]

See your definition of 'moderate muslim' and kobashi's differ greatly. That's one of the challenges. I like your definition much better by thee way.

I personally agree with both definitions. I do see Kobashi's point though... that a "moderate Muslim" is someone that is seen by the West as a person that embraces democracy and secularism.

 

[Azih]

The problem with kobashi's defnition is that any muslim who likes having an "Islamic republic of" stuck in front of their country name becomes by definition not moderate no matter how peaceful and tolerant they might be. Which is bizzare.

 

[AmMortal]

Shouldn't we make it as easy as to say that, IF a female wants circumsision she can have it done? If not the family has no right to force her?

It's not like us guys

 

[Instigator]

I don't know if this topic is still active...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7359258.stm

Muslim scientists and clerics have called for the adoption of Mecca time to replace GMT, arguing that the Saudi city is the true centre of the Earth.

Mecca is the direction all Muslims face when they perform their daily prayers.

The call was issued at a conference held in the Gulf state of Qatar under the title: Mecca, the Centre of the Earth, Theory and Practice.

One geologist argued that unlike other longitudes, Mecca's was in perfect alignment to magnetic north.

He said the English had imposed GMT on the rest of the world by force when Britain was a big colonial power, and it was about time that changed.

Mecca watch

A prominent cleric, Sheikh Youssef al-Qaradawy, said modern science had at last provided evidence that Mecca was the true centre of the Earth; proof, he said, of the greatness of the Muslim "qibla" - the Arabic word for the direction Muslims turn to when they pray.

The meeting also reviewed what has been described as a Mecca watch, the brainchild of a French Muslim.

The watch is said to rotate anti-clockwise and is supposed to help Muslims determine the direction of Mecca from any point on Earth.

The meeting in Qatar is part of a popular trend in some Muslim societies of seeking to find Koranic precedents for modern science.

It is called "Ijaz al-Koran", which roughly translates as the "miraculous nature of the holy text".

The underlying belief is that scientific truths were also revealed in the Muslim holy book, and it is the work of scholars to unearth and publicise the textual evidence.

But the movement is not without its critics, who say that the notion that modern science was revealed in the Koran confuses spiritual truth, which is constant, and empirical truth, which depends on the state of science at any given point in time.

 

[Chrono]

^LOL.

Sorry to bump this thread but I really didn't want to start a topic just for this and I'm curious.

What does muslim-gaf think of zair naik? How about ahmed deedat too?

 

[AmMortal]

^LOL.

Sorry to bump this thread but I really didn't want to start a topic just for this and I'm curious.

What does muslim-gaf think of zair naik? How about ahmed deedat too?

I like Ahmed Deedat, a lot. Watched a lot of his work.

 

[Chrono]

You know I've heard many conspiracy theories, but this is a new one. These theoreis are pretty popular in the muslim world as they blame others completely for what's happening, makes it look like it's hopless to try and change things as those forces are powerful and alwasy conspiring, and raises the illusion of muslims being so important in this world, so right and so pure and awesome that everybody out there cares enough and wants to bring them down. Anyway, I came across this site, and this latest theory, which they seem quite sure of, is on their front page:

Islam is the world's most misunderstood religion, not by accident it is by design, primarily by individuals and corporations who have a vast fanatical interest in stopping the spread of Islam.

Many individuals who profit financially from such things as alcohol, interest, pork, pornography, and gambling are also in positions of influence over media outlets. They use this position to insure that Islam is portrayed as a barbaric evil religion that oppresses women and condones such actions as suicide bombings as well as the killing of non Muslims. Our plan is to wage a counter media campaign in order to spread the truth of Islam by having a fully staffed marketing department that will work towards promoting the truth of Islam by purchasing commercial air time, space in print media as well as utilizing direct mail.

http://www.muslimsforfreedom.com/

Just wanted to get this off my chest. This world is so, so fucking stupid. It deserves nothing but misery and suffering.

 

[Verano]

Just wanted to get this off my chest. This world is so, so fucking stupid. It deserves nothing but misery and suffering.

Wow, you sound like muslim.

Spoiler

A radical(fanatical) muslim that is!

 

[RiZ III]

Not this one. This hadeeth, in Musnad Abu Dawood, in classified as authentic by Al-Albani. Also, who are the scholars that regard all these hadeeths to be weak?

Feel sorry for your daughter

edit: I forgot to add "wow". You'll blindly follow these sayings even if it means mutilating your daughter huh?

Also, Al-Albani lived in the 20th century, so you claim that a man living more than 1300 years after Muhammad was able to verify this saying?? :lol

I'll have to add this onto the list of reasons why the hadith should be disregarded.

-Stoning which contradicts the Quran
-Murdering apostates
-Sun physically moving causes day and night
-Alcohol is alright
-Female circumcision

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

You know I've heard many conspiracy theories, but this is a new one. These theoreis are pretty popular in the muslim world as they blame others completely for what's happening, makes it look like it's hopless to try and change things as those forces are powerful and alwasy conspiring, and raises the illusion of muslims being so important in this world, so right and so pure and awesome that everybody out there cares enough and wants to bring them down. Anyway, I came across this site, and this latest theory, which they seem quite sure of, is on their front page:



http://www.muslimsforfreedom.com/

Just wanted to get this off my chest. This world is so, so fucking stupid. It deserves nothing but misery and suffering.

from reading this thread alone...

i can say Islam is misunderstood as much or more by Muslims

 

[Hadji]

Feel sorry for your daughter

edit: I forgot to add "wow". You'll blindly follow these sayings even if it means mutilating your daughter huh?

Also, Al-Albani lived in the 20th century, so you claim that a man living more than 1300 years after Muhammad was able to verify this saying?? :lol

I'll have to add this onto the list of reasons why the hadith should be disregarded.

-Stoning which contradicts the Quran
-Murdering apostates
-Sun physically moving causes day and night
-Alcohol is alright
-Female circumcision

Make yourself useful and respond to my post in Himuro's thread.

According to your logic, we should disregard the verifying or dismissing of any piece of history that is made by a scholar in any field. Don't be daft.

 

[Instigator]

You know I've heard many conspiracy theories, but this is a new one. These theoreis are pretty popular in the muslim world as they blame others completely for what's happening, makes it look like it's hopless to try and change things as those forces are powerful and alwasy conspiring, and raises the illusion of muslims being so important in this world, so right and so pure and awesome that everybody out there cares enough and wants to bring them down. Anyway, I came across this site, and this latest theory, which they seem quite sure of, is on their front page:

Islam is the world's most misunderstood religion, not by accident it is by design, primarily by individuals and corporations who have a vast fanatical interest in stopping the spread of Islam.

Many individuals who profit financially from such things as alcohol, interest, pork, pornography, and gambling are also in positions of influence over media outlets. They use this position to insure that Islam is portrayed as a barbaric evil religion that oppresses women and condones such actions as suicide bombings as well as the killing of non Muslims. Our plan is to wage a counter media campaign in order to spread the truth of Islam by having a fully staffed marketing department that will work towards promoting the truth of Islam by purchasing commercial air time, space in print media as well as utilizing direct mail.

http://www.muslimsforfreedom.com/

Just wanted to get this off my chest. This world is so, so fucking stupid. It deserves nothing but misery and suffering.

I personally have no problem with people campaigning against all these things, I could even agree, in principle anyway, as to why such things can be harmful in some cases.

Only those tirades against pork are slightly comical and arbitrary. At least vegans are on most solid ground when it comes to not consuming meat of any kind. An 'impure' animal is hardly a rational argument, IMHO.

 

[Instigator]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7420907.stm

Authorities in an Australian town have rejected proposals to allow an Islamic school to be built there.

Councillors for Camden, a small town on the outskirts of Sydney, unanimously voted against the proposed school for 1200 pupils.

The councillors said they based their decision solely on planning grounds, citing an internal report about its environmental impact.

The proposed development had met with fierce local opposition.

Camden's authorities received some 3,200 submissions from the public about the school and only 100 in favour.

The BBC's Nick Bryant in Sydney says Camden does not have a large Muslim population so most of the pupils for the proposed school would have had to be brought in by bus from Sydney, an hour's drive away.

Residents' views

The issue prompted a strong response from Camden locals.

"They've got terrorists amongst them, OK? We can't say they haven't - they have," said one resident.

"We're quite happy to integrate, we happily integrate with Italians, Greeks, English, Scottish - this town has every nationality. Muslims do not fit in this town - we are Aussies, OK?"

A variety of local residents' views were aired at a public meeting late last year and attended by over 1,000 people.

Some speakers focused solely on the environmental impact of locating an urban-scale school in such a bucolic setting.

One speaker implored the crowd to stick to planning issues, and not let the campaign be contaminated by racism or xenophobia.

Andrew Wynnet of the Camden/Macarthur Residents' Group told the BBC's Nick Bryant about local concerns for the long-term demographic impact of such a development.

"The character of the town will change," he said.

The Quranic Society, the organisation behind the proposal, has kept a low public profile throughout the process.

Its position has been that Australian parents have the right to educate Australian children wherever they wish, regardless of race or religion.

The organisation was not represented at the meeting, but it can appeal against this decision in the courts.

An internal Camden council report had earlier recommended against construction, mainly citing traffic concerns.

 

[dalin80]

quick question sorry if it has already been asked but what does 'PBUH' mean, I first saw it in a rant on the bbc website by someone calling for the bbc chairman to be beheaded and now ive seen it dotted around here.....

 

[Instigator]

quick question sorry if it has already been asked but what does 'PBUH' mean, I first saw it in a rant on the bbc website by someone calling for the bbc chairman to be beheaded and now ive seen it dotted around here.....

Public Beheading for Umma's Honor

Spoiler

I don't really know.

 

[Earthstrike]

I might as well comment on the reason this topic was bumped.
I think the Mecca time idea is pretty ridiculous. We already have a standard and any point on earth is pretty arbitrary as any other. The "perfect alignment" with the magnetic north really isn't an argument since the magnetic north travels about 7 km a year and that any two points on a sphere can be joined by a great circle.

 

[Earthstrike]

quick question sorry if it has already been asked but what does 'PBUH' mean, I first saw it in a rant on the bbc website by someone calling for the bbc chairman to be beheaded and now ive seen it dotted around here.....

Peace Be upon him, these words usually spokem by muslims after the utter the name of mohammed. I think may possibly be done with other biblical figures (Moses maybe?)

 

[Ydahs]

Peace Be upon him, these words usually spokem by muslims after the utter the name of mohammed. I think may possibly be done with other biblical figures (Moses maybe?)

Applies to all Prophets.

 

[Instigator]

I might as well comment on the reason this topic was bumped.
I think the Mecca time idea is pretty ridiculous. We already have a standard and any point on earth is pretty arbitrary as any other. The "perfect alignment" with the magnetic north really isn't an argument since the magnetic north travels about 7 km a year and that any two points on a sphere can be joined by a great circle.

By that logic, when why would the Islamic calendar be any more valid? Objectively, the birth of Jesus is not any more relavant, but why have two standards when the Gregorian calendar is older and more widespread around the world?

 

[Instigator]

Usually Turkey is a model with such issues, but not this time...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,556262,00.html

Is wearing perfume a sin? Or casting a flirtatious gaze at a man? According to an article recently published on the Web site of Turkey's directorate for religious affairs, Diyanet, it is. The article, which is drawing criticism in Turkey and raising attention abroad, essentially chalks women up as walking aphrodisiacs and puts the onus on them to cover up and prevent themselves from sexually stimulating men in any way outside their homes.

"Women have to be more careful, since they have stimulants," the article states, according to a report in the Guardian. "The women communicating with strange men should speak in a manner that will not arouse suspicion in one's heart and in such seriousness and dignity that they will not let the opposite party misunderstand them, that they should not show their adornments and figure and that they should cover in a fine manner." It even goes so far as to equate flirtation with adultery, according to critics.

The article also discourages women from wearing perfume. "His highness the prophet Muhammad did not think kindly of women who put on perfumes outside their homes and go strolling and saw this as immoral behavior," it continues.

The article also reportedly said women should not spend time together with men in private unless married and questioned the virtues of co-ed workplaces.

Generally, Diyanet has promoted a moderate form of Islam and the article threatens to further inflame a roaring debate about the role of religion in what is constitutionally a secular state. The Islam-rooted Justice and Development Party of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is currently facing a legal challenge in the country's highest court, accused of undermining the secular principles upon which Turkey was founded, and faces the possibility of a ban in the future.

"It's like a comedy," writes Yusuf Kanli, a columnist with the pro-secular Turkish Daily News, "but the article appeared on the Web site of a state institution that is supposed to regulate the practice of Islam in the country according to the teachings (as perceived by the Turkish government) of Islam rather than those of some Islamist orders or brotherhood organizations. … Is this mentality different at all with that of the Taliban that placed Afghan women behind chadors?"

Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey, established Diyanet in 1924 to ensure that Islam did not interfere with the country's strictly secular government. Although Diyanet has no legal authority, it is highly influential as the custodian of the Muslim faith in the country, in charge of the country's 70,000 clerics and also responsible for appointing Turkey's imams.

 

[Earthstrike]

By that logic, when why would the Islamic calendar be any more valid? Objectively, the birth of Jesus is not any more relavant, but why have two standards when the Gregorian calendar is older and more widespread around the world?

I'm saying it wouldn't be any more valid. I'm not really sure how what you're saying refutes what I'm saying? I'm sorry, but I'm really ocnfused by this post. I get the impression that you're under the impression that I was "for" the islamic calendar.

 

[kobashi100]

Usually Turkey is a model with such issues, but not this time...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,556262,00.html

This is good. Turkey needs to start having discussions/debates about Islam vs Secularism.. There are groups in Turkey like all over the Muslim world who would like too see the return of a caliphate. Let these groups debate instead of throwing them in jails.

Also here is a good video talking about the global food crisis and how Islam would deal with these situations compared to capitalism. Sajjad Khan (Hizb ut-Tahrir), Fadlullah Wilmot (Muslim Aid, SE Asia Coordinator) and Phil Bloomer (Oxfam, Director of Policy)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...8406&q=Sajjad+Khan+&ei=Pc0-SMDlN5LqiQL5lsjlAw

Here a good PDF boof

The Global Credit Crunch and the Crisis of Capitalism

http://www.khilafah.com/kcom/images/PDF/Books/CreditCrunchJune2008.pdf

 

[AmMortal]

GHA!

All these articles appeared while I was gone

Well, might as well start off with this one :

Prophet Muhammad novel scrapped
Jewel of Medina
The cover of the scrapped novel, as seen on amazon.co.uk.

Plans to release a novel about Prophet Muhammad's child bride A'isha have been scrapped by US publishers Random House over fears it could spark violence.

The Jewel of Medina, the debut novel by journalist Sherry Jones, was due to hit shelves on 12 August.

Random House said it had been advised the book "might be offensive" to some Muslims, and "could incite acts of violence by a small, radical segment."

"We decided, after much deliberation, to postpone publication," it added.

The decision was taken "for the safety of the author, employees of Random House, booksellers and anyone else who would be involved in distribution and sale of the novel," said the company's deputy publisher Thomas Perry in a statement.

The novel traces the life of A'isha, who is often referred to as Muhammad's favourite wife, from her engagement at the age of six, until the prophet's death.

Jones said that she was shocked to learn in May, that publication would be postponed indefinitely.

'Pornography'

Random House's decision only came to light this week after The Wall Street Journal published a column by Muslim writer and scholar Asra Nomani, saying she was "saddened" by the turn of events.

Nomani argued that the publisher was afraid reaction to the novel could equal the furore caused by Sir Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses.


The series of events that torpedoed this novel are a window into how quickly fear stunts intelligent discourse about the Muslim world
Asra Nomani, writing in the Wall Street Journal
Published in 1988, the book was condemned by the Islamic world because of its perceived blasphemous depiction of the Prophet Muhammad.

Sir Salman was forced to live in hiding for the next decade after Iran's then-spiritual leader, Ayatollah Khomeini, issued a fatwa ordering his execution.

In her article, Nomani said university professor Denise Spellberg, who had been sent a review copy of Jewel of Medina, had been instrumental in stirring up opposition to the novel.

Professor Spellberg, from the University of Texas in Austin, was quoted saying the book was "ugly", "stupid" and "soft core pornography".

Three days later, Professor Spellberg argued in the same newspaper that she could not have "single-handedly stopped the book's publication".

But she conceded: "I felt it was my duty to warn the press of the novel's potential to provoke anger among some Muslims."

Jones has never visited the Middle East, but spent several years studying Arab history and said the novel was a synthesis of all she had learned.

"They did have a great love story," Jones said of Muhammad and A'isha.

The author, who has just completed a sequel examining her heroine's later life, is free to sell her book to other publishers, Random House said.

Cover:

 

[Instigator]

Is the anger about using A'isha or is it because they're using Mohammed in a fictional story, akin to Christian fundies going crazy over the Last Temptation of Christ?

 

[victreeb3l]

alright, to lighten things up, lets talk about islamic art! heres something i stumbled across during my islamic arts & architecture class: zoomorphic calligraphy

http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/2006/06/zoomorphic-calligraphy.html

i love islamic art. its one of those things that really makes me feel good about islam in bad times like these. i wish i didnt stop taking calligraphy classes. sometimes, i kind of wish i realized that the things that my parents mandated upon me as a kid were pretty cool.

heres a crapload more: http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/2006/06/zoomorphic-calligraphy.html

i wanna travel to agra and check out the mughal inspired stuff. they are to me the best of islamic architecture...i really dig the style. i went to the taj mahal as a kid and i wish i remembered it

 

[Earthstrike]

Just curious, what Muslims here are for/against the reinstitution of the Caliphate? Why/Why not?

 

[Instigator]

Just curious, what Muslims here are for/against the reinstitution of the Caliphate? Why/Why not?

There's actually a separate topic about this issue:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=311369&highlight=Caliphate

 

[Azih]

Is the anger about using A'isha or is it because they're using Mohammed in a fictional story, akin to Christian fundies going crazy over the Last Temptation of Christ?

I think it's because this bit of history is used to setup some of the most vicious attacks on the Prophet (i.e: pedophilia).

Just curious, what Muslims here are for/against the reinstitution of the Caliphate? Why/Why not?

There's no question of even being *for* something like this as it's a ridiculously stupid idea.

 

[Ela Hadrun]

There's no question of even being *for* something like this as it's a ridiculously stupid idea.

I actually read an article not too long ago where some (very apparently non-Muslim) guy was like, "Hey, those Muslims should bring their Caliphate back! Cause look how great it is to have a pope! It's been so beneficial throughout history!"

...

But effingvic, thanks for the links! I am always looking for sites where I can gape at calligraphy. My in laws have an awesome one of a boat where all the w's look like oars. I can't find a good representation using Google but I already knew I was bad at searching for calligraphy on google

 

[castle007]

There's no question of even being *for* something like this as it's a ridiculously stupid idea.

huh? You are a muslim right? Then you should know that the prophet Mohammad said that the order of rulers in the muslim world will be: Caliphates ----> slightly harsh rulers -----> Opressors -----> tyrants ------> then finally back to Caliphates

Also, you should know that Al Mahdi will be the next and the final Caliphate.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Are the Islamic responses to the Problem of Evil significantly different than the Christian responses? If so, what are they?

 

[Kapsama]

Usually Turkey is a model with such issues, but not this time...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,556262,00.html

That's what happens when the West happily supports Islamist parties. Reformed Islamists my ass. More like Camouflaged Islamists destroying a democracy from within.

 

[AmMortal]

huh? You are a muslim right? Then you should know that the prophet Mohammad said that the order of rulers in the muslim world will be: Caliphates ----> slightly harsh rulers -----> Opressors -----> tyrants ------> then finally back to Caliphates

Also, you should know that Al Mahdi will be the next and the final Caliphate.

So beautiful how everything is playing its part. So clear, SubhanAllah.

 

[Zapages]

Also, you should know that Al Mahdi will be the next and the final Caliphate.

Castle007, can you please link me some sources.... Thanks man.

Also its good to see Turkey going back to Islam... What's with the West being so afraid of Turkey returning to the Islam? Oh yeah I forgot their ways will end there... Seriously get over it. Islam is a religion that not only dictates how you pray, but every single thing you do in your life.

 

[Armitage]

What's with the West being so afraid of Turkey returning to the Islam?

Islam is a religion that not only dictates how you pray, but every single thing you do in your life.

.......

 

[Instigator]

That's what happens when the West happily supports Islamist parties. Reformed Islamists my ass. More like Camouflaged Islamists destroying a democracy from within.

Also its good to see Turkey going back to Islam... What's with the West being so afraid of Turkey returning to the Islam? Oh yeah I forgot their ways will end there... Seriously get over it. Islam is a religion that not only dictates how you pray, but every single thing you do in your life.

Turkish GAF: Fight!

 

[AmMortal]

Castle007, can you please link me some sources.... Thanks man.

Also its good to see Turkey going back to Islam... What's with the West being so afraid of Turkey returning to the Islam? Oh yeah I forgot their ways will end there... Seriously get over it. Islam is a religion that not only dictates how you pray, but every single thing you do in your life.

Bingo. Only one on earth to do so.

 

[Kapsama]

Castle007, can you please link me some sources.... Thanks man.

Also its good to see Turkey going back to Islam... What's with the West being so afraid of Turkey returning to the Islam? Oh yeah I forgot their ways will end there... Seriously get over it. Islam is a religion that not only dictates how you pray, but every single thing you do in your life.

Maybe because politicized Islam leads to shitholes like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. Islam is best practiced in a free society not in a backwards theocracy.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Bingo. Only one on earth to do so.

Wow, I'm honestly surprised to read this. Not because it's not true, it's just that most muslims I've met in the US never want to admit this for some reason. Islam is not really just a religion, from government to the home life, it dictates how everything must be. And that's why it can be so terrifying.

 

[pakkit]

Wow, I'm honestly surprised to read this. Not because it's not true, it's just that most muslims I've met in the US never want to admit this for some reason. Islam is not really just a religion, from government to the home life, it dictates how everything must be. And that's why it can be so terrifying.

All religions have opinions on how you should lead your life from government from the home. I think the OP was right in saying that Islam does it as well, but saying that it's the only religion to do so? Anybody heard of the Pope, or evangelicals?

I'm muslim, but I like my alcohol. Does that void my muslim-ness? Not at all, only Allah is allowed to judge me, and you lose your faith only be conversion. Just because a religion dictates how something should be, doesn't mean it's followers are required to follow. Not every muslim community is run by the Taliban, and your assumption seems to indicate that muslims have the potential to be nothing but lemmings for war, misogyny and terrorism. Any look at modern Muslim society or books will show that there is a push for change, there are plenty of clashing ideals, and that muslims are not simply a cog in the machine.

 

[SoulPlaya]

All religions have opinions on how you should lead your life from government from the home. I think the OP was right in saying that Islam does it as well, but saying that it's the only religion to do so? Anybody heard of the Pope, or evangelicals?

I'm muslim, but I like my alcohol. Does that void my muslim-ness? Not at all, only Allah is allowed to judge me, and you lose your faith only be conversion. Just because a religion dictates how something should be, doesn't mean it's followers are required to follow. Not every muslim community is run by the Taliban, and your assumption seems to indicate that muslims have the potential to be nothing but lemmings for war, misogyny and terrorism. Any look at modern Muslim society or books will show that there is a push for change, there are plenty of clashing ideals, and that muslims are not simply a cog in the machine.

While all religions do dictate how one must live their lives, none do so (atleast none that I know) as much as Islam. The Pope isn't in the Bible (no real mentions of government structure are in the New testament really) and Christ was never as thorough in dictating how one must live their lives as Mohammed can be. And yes drinking alcohol can hamper your "muslim-ness", if the prophet Mohammed (a messenger of God) said don't do it and you do it, then you are disobeying Allah (God). Allah has already judged by saying don't do it.

And, of course, Muslims have the potential for horrible things, as do all people. It's just that Islam is such a controlling religion that if it is "misinterpreted", the consequences can be devastating. And a push for change? Come on, the Islamic world is living in the dark ages when it comes to most people's rights and I believe it's due to having one religion dictate pretty much everything in a person's life. There needs to be a balance and one mustn't be afraid to look outside of their own little box.

And just to be clear, I don't HATE Islam (or Muslims). I've spent a good deal of my life surrounded by it and I disagree with various aspects of it. I understand that Christianity has its own issues but most of them are found in the Old Testament and are overwritten in the New testament. Besides, the Christian (or Western) world has learned to balance religion with life. The Islamic world, on the other hand, has no such balance and Islam dominates all aspects of life.

 

[pakkit]

And, of course, Muslims have the potential for horrible things, as do all people. It's just that Islam is such a controlling religion that if it is "misinterpreted", the consequences can be devastating. And a push for change? Come on, the Islamic world is living in the dark ages when it comes to most people's rights and I believe it's due to having one religion dictate pretty much everything in a person's life. There needs to be a balance and one mustn't be afraid to look outside of their own little box.

Misinterpretation and religion, even war and religion, have gone hand in hand long before Islam was even founded. The fear should be there only because of how westerners have shown very little understanding or even sincerity in respecting muslim values or muslim-run countries or states. Islam has been around for centuries, and not all of them have been fire and brimstone.

Yes, there is a push for change, and the Islamic world is centuries behind the other major religions, and I acknowledge that. It seems unfair for others to force ideals on Islam when they took centuries to drag themselves out of the dark age. Don't forget Islam's relative youth compared to Judaism or Christianity. Most of Islamic violence is civil war. You can look to Iran as evidence of constant change with different ideals getting placed and replaced every few decades. Muslims are not wearing blinders.

I have plenty of criticisms with Islam too, and have more of an interest in religious study as a whole, but to be honest I've seen just as much blind faith here in the US as I have on my trips to Pakistan. You're right to a point, but it's the generalizations that I object to.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Misinterpretation and religion, even war and religion, have gone hand in hand long before Islam was even founded. The fear should be there only because of how westerners have shown very little understanding or even sincerity in respecting muslim values or muslim-run countries or states. Islam has been around for centuries, and not all of them have been fire and brimstone.

Yes, there is a push for change, and the Islamic world is centuries behind the other major religions, and I acknowledge that. It seems unfair for others to force ideals on Islam when they took centuries to drag themselves out of the dark age. Don't forget Islam's relative youth compared to Judaism or Christianity. Most of Islamic violence is civil war. You can look to Iran as evidence of constant change with different ideals getting placed and replaced every few decades. Muslims are not wearing blinders.

I have plenty of criticisms with Islam too, and have more of an interest in religious study as a whole, but to be honest I've seen just as much blind faith here in the US as I have on my trips to Pakistan. You're right to a point, but it's the generalizations that I object to.

I agree with most of what you said. My main problem is with Muslims who claim that the answer to the Islamic world's problems is to become more conservative and look closer to Islam. I mean if you were drinking alcohol in the Islamic world, you would have received 40 lashes and there are many on this board who would claim there is nothing wrong with that because that is what Islam dictates and that's the way it should be.

 

[pakkit]

I agree with most of what you said. My main problem is with Muslims who claim that the answer to the Islamic world's problems is to become more conservative and look closer to Islam. I mean if you were drinking alcohol in the Islamic world, you would have received 40 lashes and there are many on this board who would claim there is nothing wrong with that because that is what Islam dictates and that's the way it should be.

Right, well I'm here to tell you that there are two sides to every story. Islam is in a very confused place right now, and the next century will definitely dictate where it heads. A lot of criticism of Islam comes from their own, and I hope that Islam can change (on their own without outside influence) to better fit the world today just as Judaism and Christianity changed their ideals to match the world around them. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got an Absolut to drown.

 

[castle007]

Castle007, can you please link me some sources.... Thanks man.

Also its good to see Turkey going back to Islam... What's with the West being so afraid of Turkey returning to the Islam? Oh yeah I forgot their ways will end there... Seriously get over it. Islam is a religion that not only dictates how you pray, but every single thing you do in your life.

I tried to find the sources online as soon as I finished that post. :lol But I couldn't find it. I read it online, so it is there. it is supposedly from a hadith. I will try harder.

 

[Yazan]

And, of course, Muslims have the potential for horrible things, as do all people. It's just that Islam is such a controlling religion that if it is "misinterpreted", the consequences can be devastating. And a push for change? Come on, the Islamic world is living in the dark ages when it comes to most people's rights and I believe it's due to having one religion dictate pretty much everything in a person's life. There needs to be a balance and one mustn't be afraid to look outside of their own little box.

I don't think that it's Islams fault that everything is so fucked up in Libya, Egypt, Syria, etc. etc. Hell the countries I mentioned consider them self secular and Egypt is hunting every muslim (from the brotherhood and no they aren't terrorists) and killing/torturing them. But if you ask what the people want (like a democracy) most of the Egyptian population would choose the brotherhood over any other leader. And if the whole Arabic population would vote today; we would have an united Islamic Arabia.

Gaza is probably the only part in the whole Arabia that chose their leaders and they paid for it. But I can tell you that even without gas, daily electricity and food the people are happier than they have been for the last 60 years.

 

[AndyIsTheMoran]

Maybe because politicized Islam leads to shitholes like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. Islam is best practiced in a free society not in a backwards theocracy.

All religion is best practiced freely when kept from government polluting it, hence our separation of church and state. most people think this was created because of the opposite scenario.