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[Hadji]

What's that supposed mean? Shias follow hadiths just as much as Sunnis do, it's just we don't accept primary Sunni sources.

Yeah, a quick question about that... If I were to ask you about the authenticity of a Shi'ite hadeeth would you be able to find out for me?

 

[cicero]

She should leave her family and completely cut them off, if she doesn't, she runs the risk of being honor killed/savagely beaten or having pressure continually applied by her family until they break her down. This of course does tend to occur in families that come from certain regions more than others, but if the safety and well-being of the woman is the paramount issue here, which it should be, then she should assume that those dangers are a very real possibility, if only because they have attempted to force her into a marriage to begin with.

Tell her to be careful, and get out quickly if she wants any chance at a fulfilling happy life that isn't oppressive.

Its Islamically wrong for a marriage to force two individuals to get married. She should approach her parents and tell them that its Islamically wrong what they are doing and support it with surrahs and hadiths. She should say that culture and Islam should not mix. Unfortunately in most cases it does not work that way.

If that doesn't work, she should be allowed to her future groom through the telephone or chat online with him. Another possibility is to just have an engagement, where they can go on a date with chaperon(an elder family member, ie. father/mother) ie. halal dating.

As mentioned forcing a marriage is wrong according to Islam. She could try explaining this herself but there's a good chance her parents won't take any notice of her. So she could try and get someone "officially" recognised for their knowledge of Islam such as an imam or a scholar to explain this to her parents for her.

If her parents are set on forcing the marriage, then she's facing the choice of losing her future or losing her family. If she chooses the latter then it's also likely she may have to run away as well.

Of course not mentioning the fact that under Islamic law, a lack of open objection, or silence, both amount to consent.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Was this posted?

Egypt sentences 5 men for homosexuality

By MAGGIE MICHAEL, Associated Press Writer Wed Apr 9, 4:37 PM ET

CAIRO, Egypt - An Egyptian court convicted five men Wednesday on charges of homosexual behavior and sentenced them to three years in prison, officials said.
ADVERTISEMENT

Defense lawyer, Adel Ramadan, said the judge found the men guilty of the "habitual practice of debauchery" — a term used in the Egyptian legal system to denote consensual homosexual acts.

The convictions were confirmed by a judicial official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to journalists.

Homosexuality is not explicitly referred to in Egypt's legal code, but a wide range of laws covering obscenity, prostitution and debauchery are applied to homosexuals in this conservative country.

The five men were arrested in what human rights groups describe as a crackdown on people with the AIDS virus, using the debauchery charges as a means to prosecute them.

Four of the five men tested HIV-positive after all were forced to undergo blood tests in custody, Human Rights Watch says. The New York-based rights group issued a statement Tuesday signed by more than 100 other organizations around the world condemning the prosecutions.

Ramadan, a lawyer with the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights, said the five men were abused and tortured over the past several months to "extract confessions" from them.

In addition to their prison time, the men were sentenced to an additional three years of police supervision, meaning they will have to spend every night at a police station, from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m., the lawyer said.

Ramadan said the four HIV-positive defendants were shocked by their convictions.

"Two of them cried, screamed and shrieked," he said. "The other two, they remained silent, but I saw anger in their eyes for the injustice they have been exposed to."

Ramadan said he appealed the verdict to Egypt's Court of Cassation, the country's highest appellate court.

Dozens of human rights groups have criticized this trial and other similar ones as being driven by ignorance and fear of AIDS. They have warned that the convictions could undermine AIDS prevention in Egypt.

The five convicted Wednesday were among 12 people arrested in a sweep that began in October, when police arrested a man during an altercation with another man on a Cairo street, Human Rights Watch said.

After one of the men said he was HIV-positive, authorities opened investigations into other men whose names or contact information were uncovered in interrogations of the first group of men, Human Rights Watch said.

Egyptian police have denied making any arrests because of a person's HIV condition.

In mid-January, four other HIV-positive men from the group of 12 were sentenced to one-year prison terms on similar charges of debauchery. Three others from the 12 were not prosecuted, Human Rights Watch said.

Sigh*.

 

[GSG Flash]

Yeah, a quick question about that... If I were to ask you about the authenticity of a Shi'ite hadeeth would you be able to find out for me?

First, you didn't answer my question.

And second, probably not because I'm studying for my exams right now and I don't have the time to do other researching. I'm gonna point you to Shiachat again, I regret your past experience with them, but they're decent people. Maybe a bit aggressive, but then so are you.

 

[AmMortal]

What's that supposed mean? Shias follow hadiths just as much as Sunnis do, it's just we don't accept primary Sunni sources.

Kind of contradicting dont ya think>?

 

[GSG Flash]

Kind of contradicting dont ya think>?

How so? We follow hadiths, just not the same ones as Sunnis. For example, Sunnis follow the hadiths in Sahih Bukhari, while Shias follow the hadiths in Nahj-al Balagha.

 

[Hadji]

She should leave her family and completely cut them off, if she doesn't, she runs the risk of being honor killed/savagely beaten or having pressure continually applied by her family until they break her down.

I'm not aware of anyone being "honor killed" for not accepting a forced marriage. I'm not aware that the term even applies to such a situation.

First, you didn't answer my question.

Which question was that?

And second, probably not because I'm studying for my exams right now and I don't have the time to do other researching.

This was not my question. I didn't ask you to personally "research" the authenticity of any specific hadeeth. My question was more general, as in, is it POSSIBLE to find the authenticity of ANY Shi'ite hadeeth? If so, then how?

The reason I ask is because I've never heard a Shi'ite say, "here is a hadeeth... and it is authentic according to so and so."

Edit: Wait a sec... I didn't read your last post. Nahjul-Balagha isn't all authentic is it?

 

[GSG Flash]

Which question was that?



This was not my question. I didn't ask you to personally "research" the authenticity of any specific hadeeth. My question was more general, as in, is it POSSIBLE to find the authenticity of ANY Shi'ite hadeeth? If so, then how?

The reason I ask is because I've never heard a Shi'ite say, "here is a hadeeth... and it is authentic according to so and so."

You didn't explain what you meant by "I guess being from a Shi'ite background does play a big part in that".

And authenticity is determined the same way Sunni hadiths are authenticated, by determining the reliability and authenticity of the line of people the hadith was passed down from.

Either way, I'm not the correct person to discuss hadiths with, like I said, go to Shiachat if you have any questions.

 

[Hadji]

You didn't explain what you meant by "I guess being from a Shi'ite background does play a big part in that".

Oh, sorry. I didn't realize that you wanted me to answer that question from the way you asked earlier.

Well, the answer as you've probably noticed from my previous posts, is that I don't find it really hard to reject hadeeth when you come from a Shi'ite background. The reasons are simple. Mainly because the science isn't open to the public as much as it is to Sunnis.

And authenticity is determined the same way Sunni hadiths are authenticated, by determining the reliability and authenticity of the line of people the hadith was passed down from.

You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask about the process of authentication, but I asked if it was possible for someone like me or you to find out if a hadeeth is categorized as "authentic" or not.

Like, for example, to Sunnis, we've got databases of hadeeths and those that have authenticated them. Do you folks have the same?

 

[MeowMeow]

i havent been able to post cause i have been so busy with school, and my computer crashed. Guess gonna delay on what i have to say ..

 

[cicero]

I'm not aware of anyone being "honor killed" for not accepting a forced marriage. I'm not aware that the term even applies to such a situation.

Your convenient ignorance is typical, and pathetic.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

An honour killing or honor killing[1] is generally a punitive murder, committed by members of a family against a female member of their family whom the family and/or wider community believes to have brought dishonour upon the family. A woman is usually targeted for: refusing an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce — even from an abusive husband — or committing adultery. These killings result from the perception that any behaviour of a woman that "dishonours" her family is justification for a killing that would otherwise be deemed murder.[2]

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2006/01/16/for_muslim_women_a_deadly_defiance/

As Europe's Muslims become increasingly conservative, growing numbers of women are being killed or mutilated in the name of ''family honor," according to law enforcement agencies, women's activist groups, and moderate Islamic organizations. These cases usually involve an attack on a Muslim woman by a close relative -- typically a brother or father -- angered by her refusal to accept a forced marriage or her insistence on leading a Western-style life.

There were at least eight such slayings in Berlin alone in 2005, and 47 honor killings of Muslim women across Germany in the past six years, according to police, media reports, and activist groups. Not coincidentally, activists say, tens of thousands of European-born Muslim women are annually forced into unwanted marriages, often to much older men, in their family's home countries. Refusal to submit to such marriages can bring a death sentence.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Girl-afraid-of-marriage-was.3666239.jp

A TEENAGE girl who feared a marriage was being arranged by her parents was killed unlawfully, a coroner said yesterday.

Shafilea Ahmed, 17, was found dead on a river bank five months after she disappeared, following claims from friends and teachers that she feared being forced into marriage.

Police launched a murder inquiry and arrested her parents on suspicion of kidnapping the teenager, from Warrington, Cheshire – but both were released without charge.

Ian Smith, the East and South Cumbria Coroner, told the inquest: "Shafilea was the victim of a very vile murder. I believe she was taken from her home on the 11th of September (2003(. I do not believe she ran away. She was murdered. I'm convinced of that because of the way in which the body was disposed. It had been hidden and she had been taken many miles away from home."

He said the concept of an arranged marriage was "central" to the circumstances leading up to her death.

During the four-day inquest in Kendal, Cumbria, Shafilea's mother accused detectives of not doing enough to find her daughter's killer.

Shafilea's body was discovered after heavy floods washed away the dense undergrowth in which it was hidden on the banks of the River Kent at Sedgwick, Cumbria, in February 2004.

Yesterday Shafilea's parents, Iftikhar and Farzana, said they would challenge the coroner's ruling of unlawful killing.

Their solicitor Nadeem Ullah said: "The Ahmeds disagree with the decision of the coroner's court and they are currently receiving advice regards appealing the decision of the coroner by judicial review."

Mr Smith said: "Shafilea was a very frightened young woman and she was frightened of the consequences of an arranged marriage."

He said her fears were first aroused after a phone conversation in 2002 between her father and his uncle in Pakistan. They had discussed a possible arranged marriage between Shafilea and the uncle's son.

Mr Ahmed told the hearing such an arrangement needed the consent of the boy and girl, but the coroner said he believed the "greater family" had more say on the issue and could impose pressure for it to go ahead.

He said: "Shafilea did not want to be married, full stop, at this point. She did not want to marry someone she did not know or may not like.

"She wanted to forge ahead with a career, she did not want to stop her studies and she did not want to live abroad. Rightly or wrongly, she feared all these things might happen."

Shafilea ran away for ten days in February 2003 and told housing officers: "My parents are going to send me to Pakistan and I'll be married to someone and left there."

Mr Ahmed said in evidence he accepted his daughter's reply of "no way" when a potential suitor was mentioned.

Mr Smith said there was no proof Shafilea's parents had hit her or stolen money from her, but he believed she had told friends this was the case.

Taxi driver Mr Ahmed said he last saw his daughter doing her homework on the night of her disappearance. The student was reported missing a week later by a former school teacher.

Mr Ahmed said he did not report her missing after police dismissed his previous reports she had gone missing in November 2002 and January 2003.

Ruling the cause of death as "unascertained", Mr Smith said he was satisfied that she did not die of natural causes or suicide.

Pathologist Dr Alison Armour told the hearing the most likely cause was by smothering or strangling.

Supt Geraint Jones, Cheshire Police's Superintendent and the senior investigating officer, said: "This remains a live murder inquiry. There is someone out there who knows what happened to Shafilea and has not told us."

TEENAGER'S TRAGIC SONG

LYRICS were found in the bedroom of Muslim teenager Shafilea after she disappeared .

In one song, Happy Families, the westernised teenager refers to a clash of cultures and her family's preoccupation with "honour".

She wrote: "I don't pretend like we're the perfect family no more/Desire to live is burning/ My stomach is turning/But all they think about is honour/I was like a normal teenage kid/Didn't ask 2 much/I just wanted to fit in/But my culture was different/But my family ignored."

A second song, I Feel Trapped, refers to an unspecified event that changed her previously happy life.

She wrote: It was my last year in school/So happy with my friends I got lots to do/But came this day when everything changed/I came home it seemed like a normal day/But sumthing wasn't right/I wish I coulda changed the event/I shoulda killed myself instead/I'd rather have been dead/Coz now I have a burden on my chest/And no it won't go away, the guilt, the pain."

In the chorus she wrote: "I feel trapped so trapped, I'm trapped/I'm trapped, so trapped I'm trapped/(I don't know wot to do) I feel trapped."

The inquest also heard how Shafilea had been taken to Pakistan on a family holiday, possibly without any warning.

Mr Smith said he believed she deliberately drank bleach as a "desperate measure to get herself out of a situation she didn't want to be in".

Her parents claimed she had mistaken the caustic substance for mouthwash.

Finding those took me all of two minutes using google, Hadji. As I said before, that girl needs to leave her family and completely cut them off, if she doesn't, she runs the risk of being honor killed/savagely beaten or having pressure continually applied by her family until they break her down.

 

[Hadji]

Your convenient ignorance is typical, and pathetic.

Finding those took me all of two minutes using google, Hadji. As I said before, that girl needs to leave her family and completely cut them off, if she doesn't, she runs the risk of being honor killed/savagely beaten or having pressure continually applied by her family until they break her down.

I stand corrected.

Personally, I think you are jumping to conclusions since you are assuming the worst about a family that you don't know anything about. That is probably why I shrugged off your definition when you first mentioned it.

However, your attitude doesn't make you anymore correct than you already are. So I suggest that you respect others if you want to be respected.

 

[heidern]

Of course not mentioning the fact that under Islamic law, a lack of open objection, or silence, both amount to consent.

That's after she's been specifically asked if she wants to marry a particular individual, then yes she can give her consent by remaining silent to that question, or if she doesn't agree, she can just say no, it's not exactly complicated. And she can withdraw her consent at any time before the wedding is complete, and that includes during the ceremony where she can change her mind and say no.

She should leave her family and completely cut them off, if she doesn't, she runs the risk of being honor killed/savagely beaten or having pressure continually applied by her family until they break her down.

I suppose you think kids should never be allowed outside the house because some nutter might kidnap and kill them. No. Honour killings are rare and it is presumptious to assume that it is likely in this case. Running away is also not necessarily necessary. Staying and fighting your ground may be an easier path than leaving everyone and everything you know and obtaining independence in terms of finding a home/job etc.

Oh, and another possibility is for her to speak to the guy her parents want her to marry, explain to him her situation and that she doesn't want to marry him and try to persuade him to take action stop this situation from proceeding.

 

[James Power]

Was this posted?

Sigh*.

This isn't true islam. True islam LOVES homosexuals! And justice!

 

[Hadji]

This isn't true islam. True islam LOVES homosexuals! And justice!

:lol

 

[AmMortal]

I remember seeing that guy, major lol

 

[cicero]

I stand corrected.

Personally, I think you are jumping to conclusions since you are assuming the worst about a family that you don't know anything about. That is probably why I shrugged off your definition when you first mentioned it.

I gave no definition, I only linked honor killing and forced/arranged marriage together. I pointedly said:

She should leave her family and completely cut them off, if she doesn't, she runs the risk of being honor killed/savagely beaten or having pressure continually applied by her family until they break her down. This of course does tend to occur in families that come from certain regions more than others, but if the safety and well-being of the woman is the paramount issue here, which it should be, then she should assume that those dangers are a very real possibility, if only because they have attempted to force her into a marriage to begin with.

I am concerned about the safety of the woman involved, you seem to be concerned primarily with the family image. I did not jump to conclusions, I merely stated the very simple fact that she is potentially in very grave danger, and more likely so than not to begin with because her parents were willing to FORCE her to marry someone she did not wish to marry. I didn't see you explain this point away, do you wish to?

However, your attitude doesn't make you anymore correct than you already are. So I suggest that you respect others if you want to be respected.

I am so sorry that I felt disgust and allowed it to show in my comments in an Islamic apologist thread after a proponent of the faith dismissed out of hand the very commonly known reason for an honor killing.

I do not respect seemingly indifferent or lazy ignorance when it comes to things like honor killings after someone comes to this thread looking for advice in a situation where out of hand dismissals of legitimate facts about potential dangers could cause someone to give bad advice. Her own family could kill her for the sole reason that she refuses to marry. Does she even know that kind of thing occurs on a regular basis? Why shouldn't she?

Respect is earned, Hadji.

 

[Hadji]

I am concerned about the safety of the woman involved, you seem to be concerned primarily with the family image. I did not jump to conclusions, I merely stated the very simple fact that she is potentially in very grave danger, and more likely so than not to begin with because her parents were willing to FORCE her to marry someone she did not wish to marry. I didn't see you explain this point away, do you wish to?

What did I say in this thread that led you to believe that I am more concerned about the family's image? At the moment, I'm not really concerned about the girl's safety since I don't believe that these types of "honor killings" are common at all.

I am so sorry that I felt disgust and allowed it to show in my comments in an Islamic apologist thread after a proponent of the faith dismissed out of hand the very commonly known reason for an honor killing.

I'm personally disgusted at this:

Leave her family and cut them off completely so they don't honor kill her or pressure her into the marriage. Either that, or go through with it and spend the rest of her life having her spirit crushed and being relegated to little more than baby making chattel.

I'm not whining about your opinion because it is your own. Honestly, I thought this was a joke post and I wasn't even bothered to respond to it. The other posters here have the correct idea, which is talking to her parents in a civilized matter about it. The fact that you don't know the family and would suggest that she should cut them off completely is absurd.

Respect is earned, Hadji.

I respect people unconditionally until I have a reason to stop doing so. Not that it matters to you, but arrogant attitude is a good enough reason for me.

To each his own, I guess.

 

[AmMortal]

What did I say in this thread that led you to believe that I am more concerned about the family's image? At the moment, I'm not really concerned about the girl's safety since I don't believe that these types of "honor killings" are common at all.


To each his own, I guess.

Honor Killings are something, are from the asian culture, usually indo/Pakistani. They aren't frequent, but you never know when they might happen.

For instance,Some families would kill the girl, if she were to marry a black man, Muslim or not.


:/

 

[Hadji]

Honor Killings are something, are from the asian culture, usually indo/Pakistani. They aren't frequent, but you never know when they might happen.

For instance,Some families would kill the girl, if she were to marry a black man, Muslim or not.


:/

Right, but that doesn't mean I should run around telling all Muslim women to completely cut off their families if they happen to fall in love with a black man.

 

[AmMortal]

Right, but that doesn't mean I should run around telling all Muslim women to completely cut off their families if they happen to fall in love with a black man.

yeah, I fogot to mention that...cutting family ties would be the worst thing at this time.

As they'd feel more incentive to force her.

 

[cicero]

That's after she's been specifically asked if she wants to marry a particular individual, then yes she can give her consent by remaining silent to that question, or if she doesn't agree, she can just say no, it's not exactly complicated. And she can withdraw her consent at any time before the wedding is complete, and that includes during the ceremony where she can change her mind and say no.

You want to portray reality as fitting the letter of Islamic law. But if honor killings exist and are not uncommon in Islamic countries, not to mention in smaller numbers in the West amongst immigrants, in supposed violation of Islamic law, then why would that not also be true for this as well? In fact, it is true. Women are pressured and intimidated to keep quiet, fear for their own safety works well in that regard. The idea of silent consent is ridiculous, what legitimate need does this serve? What basis is there for this? Coercion works well in silence.

And what of the common practice of sending children back with relatives to their native countries where they are then forced into marriage against their will? You would think that if Islam was all about Allah giving honor and rights back to women, that in countries applying Islamic law, you would see more of this than not. Funny, that.

I suppose you think kids should never be allowed outside the house because some nutter might kidnap and kill them. No.

Your analogy is flawed. Honor killings are committed by people that these women should have the greatest safety with, their own family, not some random stranger who is deranged. They do so to protect their so called "honor", not in furtherance of sick compulsive psychological or sexual gratification.

You say that Islam is directly opposed to this behavior, so where is there widespread condemnation in the Muslim world, or a normal commonly applied Islamic legal remedy and punishment? Where does this regularly occur in countries applying Islamic law? And if not that, where is the widespread condemnation, you know, something even remotely comparable to the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons uproar.

I guess there is one standard that I could find being applied here too, "under Islamic law, a lack of open objection, or silence, both amount to consent."...

Honour killings are rare and it is presumptious to assume that it is likely in this case.

The UN puts the number of honor killings at over 5000, PER YEAR. I never said that it was likely in this case, I very specifically said that "those dangers are a very real possibility" and "she runs the risk". POTENTIAL RISK.

Running away is also not necessarily necessary. Staying and fighting your ground may be an easier path than leaving everyone and everything you know and obtaining independence in terms of finding a home/job etc.

Oh right, easier. Especially if one assumes that there is no risk in her staying with her family, eh? Almost as if somehow the whole situation of her being FORCED into marriage doesn't even exist, or at least any logical implications arising from that don't. But hey, if they do kill her, at least she will only be one of those RARE 5000+ per year occurrences that some people might *tsk tsk* at, but not too loudly.

Maybe she does have a decent family though. A decent family that for some reason decided to FORCE their daughter to marry against her will. But somehow they are still decent. Still, assuming that is the situation, at least I have broached the subject as if it had some significance for her and muslim women in general, which it does. I have yet to see one muslim adherent here do so other to say that it is against Islam, which really doesn't help those dead women, or those women who will be dead due to the seeming lack of widespread, or even regional, outrage about this issue throughout the Muslim world. People died over Muhammad cartoons, but not your own unlawfully slaughtered women?

*tsk tsk*

Oh, and another possibility is for her to speak to the guy her parents want her to marry, explain to him her situation and that she doesn't want to marry him and try to persuade him to take action stop this situation from proceeding.

The guy who most likely wants the FORCED marriage to occur? Because if he didn't want it or agree with it, why isn't he loudly protesting against it? You know, in furtherance of his own faith.

So she should put her faith in him, and assume that he won't contact her parents, as has happened in other cases, and her family then deals with it? Again, you seemingly come with the assumption that no danger exists. Because this solution is no solution at all unless that basic assumption is made. Remember, the safety and well being of the woman is the priority here, well, speaking for myself it is.

 

[miyuru]

I have no problem with Islam as explained in the original post.

But, I have a huge problem with religion, because it seems to be at the heart of many of the world's problems.

Those of you who are religious, I would urge you to come together with those of other religions to bring awareness to the problems that arise when religions clash.

It's one thing for atheists to hate on those who are religious etc., and I don't think it really does anything. But, I do think that if those who are religious lead other religious extremists to the light, you might see some real change.

 

[AmMortal]

I have no problem with Islam as explained in the original post.

But, I have a huge problem with religion, because it seems to be at the heart of many of the world's problems.

Those of you who are religious, I would urge you to come together with those of other religions to bring awareness to the problems that arise when religions clash.

It's one thing for atheists to hate on those who are religious etc., and I don't think it really does anything. But, I do think that if those who are religious lead other religious extremists to the light, you might see some real change.

That is true, back in the day the religions used to help and support each other, muslims used to help and defend jews, while today people think muslims and jews are supposed to hate each other. A jewish man has no problem praying in a mosque, or eating in a muslim restaurant because the faiths are so similiar.

Now, ignorance and hate is just seperating people, even the pope is saying things like
" Islam is a religion of violence"(forgetting the fact that christianity has a higher body count from the crusades against jews and muslims) to agrivate the hate and seperation.

 

[cicero]

What did I say in this thread that led you to believe that I am more concerned about the family's image? At the moment, I'm not really concerned about the girl's safety since I don't believe that these types of "honor killings" are common at all.

uh huh, and just a few posts ago there was no belief in any connection between "honor killings" and forced/arranged marriages. But now they aren't common at all. What is this based on exactly, more ignorant bliss?

I'm personally disgusted at this:

Right. You are disgusted at my reaction to a woman being FORCED into marriage and my logical option that I think she has, given the actions of her parents and their seeming proclivity towards behavior that is harmful to her. Behavior that has a large well proven track record for ending in violence. But my reaction is what is disgusting to you...

Nice to see what your personal priorities are. Where exactly is Islamic respect for women going to enter into this?

I'm not whining about your opinion because it is your own. Honestly, I thought this was a joke post and I wasn't even bothered to respond to it. The other posters here have the correct idea, which is talking to her parents in a civilized matter about it. The fact that you don't know the family and would suggest that she should cut them off completely is absurd.

The fact that you don't know the family and would imply or suggest that she should give no weight whatsoever to her own family's complete disrespect for her and unlawful, both in the eyes of Islam and in the laws of the Western country she most likely is residing in, attempt to coerce her into marriage is absurd.

You assume far more than I have, at least I have her parent's own coercive activities that puts my comments in context. What basis do you have for your assumptions beyond defense of your own faith and its image, and thus by proxy, Muslim families like yours?

If her parents are knowingly doing this against the laws of their own faith in pursuit of some kind of cultural/societal acceptance, what exactly is the remedy here within the community or religion? What does that say about the parents? If they are doing this without knowledge, in ignorance of the precepts of their own religion, again, what exactly is the remedy here within the community or religion? What does that say about the parents? But more to the point, what exactly is not dangerous about this situation for the woman involved or Muslim women in general in either case? They attempt to FORCE their daughter into marriage, with or without knowledge that Islam is, supposedly, against forcible marriage. What they don't know, or do know and violate anyway, can just as easily be taken from forcible marriage to honor killing.

5000+ honor killing deaths per year prove me right.

The danger exists. She should be aware of the danger and know that the ultimate safety is to leave and cut her family off completely.

I respect people unconditionally until I have a reason to stop doing so. Not that it matters to you, but arrogant attitude is a good enough reason for me.

To each his own, I guess.

You confuse arrogance with disgust at what appears to be lazy indifference on your part.

 

[Primethius]

Thanks for all the advice guys. The guy's in India, the girl's in Canada so hopefully she can just stand her ground.

Oh, and I know that this question doesn't really fall under Islam, but I asked it here because it's more a cultural question which is usually related with our religion.

 

[AmMortal]

Thanks for all the advice guys. The guy's in India, the girl's in Canada so hopefully she can just stand her ground.

Oh, and I know that this question doesn't really fall under Islam, but I asked it here because it's more a cultural question which is usually related with our religion.

Anytime man.

 

[Hadji]

You assume far more than I have, at least I have her parent's own coercive activities that puts my comments in context. What basis do you have for your assumptions beyond defense of your own faith and its image, and thus by proxy, Muslim families like yours?

My faith's image isn't hurt in my eyes, or in the eyes of any rational person that can differentiate between culture and religion. My problem, as I've stated previously, is your plan for her "successful" life.

If her parents are knowingly doing this against the laws of their own faith in pursuit of some kind of cultural/societal acceptance, what exactly is the remedy here within the community or religion? What does that say about the parents? If they are doing this without knowledge, in ignorance of the precepts of their own religion, again, what exactly is the remedy here within the community or religion? What does that say about the parents? But more to the point, what exactly is not dangerous about this situation for the woman involved or Muslim women in general in either case? They attempt to FORCE their daughter into marriage, with or without knowledge that Islam is, supposedly, against forcible marriage. What they don't know, or do know and violate anyway, can just as easily be taken from forcible marriage to honor killing.

I'm not aware of any religious community that happily goes against the teachings of their religion knowingly. This is why I assume that the parents are ignorant. If you've actually paid attention to the posts that weren't addressed to you, then you'd realize that the answer to the question "what if the parents are doing this without knowledge?" are to be found in previous posts.

5000+ honor killing deaths per year prove me right.

In Islamic communities or in the world in general?

The danger exists. She should be aware of the danger and know that the ultimate safety is to leave and cut her family off completely.

I'd think I'd like Koshunter to pass that piece of advice to her. Anyone in her position could use a good laugh.

 

[cicero]

My faith's image isn't hurt in my eyes, or in the eyes of any rational person that can differentiate between culture and religion. My problem, as I've stated previously, is your plan for her "successful" life.

Nice how you selectively edit my posts down to comments you choose to reply to, the rest are apparently ignored. You have no basis for your implied assumption that she is not in any danger, which I have repeatedly stated and which you now have repeatedly ignored. But you want to focus on the one line comment about your faith's image, ignoring the obvious question I asked about what amounts to fairly obvious bias on your part when it comes to appraising another Muslim family... Amusing.

She is FAR less likely to remain safe and keep her Westernized individuality in a family like hers. You have no basis to claim otherwise.

I'm not aware of any religious community that happily goes against the teachings of their religion knowingly. This is why I assume that the parents are ignorant. If you've actually paid attention to the posts that weren't addressed to you, then you'd realize that the answer to the question "what if the parents are doing this without knowledge?" are to be found in previous posts.

If you actually paid attention to my previous posts you would see links to stories on those pages where women chose to disagree with their family and refuse marriage. You have provided absolutely NO alternative given the possible violent outcomes to these choices. In fact you have either dismissed, downplayed,or ignored that possibility entirely. This is clearly intellectually disingenuous. If you really believed in the separation between culture and religion, then there would be at least some intellectually honest appraisal of this factual issue on your part, especially given how you have repeatedly stated that Islam says coercive marriages are wrong, much less honor killings. Why do you defend against the idea of any possible danger to the woman as if it was an issue for Islam and not culture alone? You say one thing while doing another.

I pointed out the clear possibility of danger to women in Islam either coming from people who ignore or knowingly violate their religion's precepts in deference to cultural practices, and yes, that is a very common thing, despite your inane claim to the contrary. Hypocrisy and convenient application of religious standards is found EVERYWHERE. Or, that they might do so out of ignorance. Either way, you pointedly chose to ignore the point of my comments and the logical end of my argument.

In Islamic communities or in the world in general?

Way to completely ignore the context of what I said. Not to mention the fact that you just got done saying that you had no belief in any connection between "honor killings" and forced/arranged marriages, then you didn't believe that "honor killings" were common at all, and now it is the implied argument that if 5000+ isn't completely from Islamic communities, somehow that negates its commonality. Go up and actually bother to read the wikipedia link I provided. Your intellectual laziness and apparent pointed refusal to actually educate yourself on the topic you are being defensive about is both inane and pathetic.

As I stated before, and which provides the context you so obviously chose to edit out:

If her parents are knowingly doing this against the laws of their own faith in pursuit of some kind of cultural/societal acceptance, what exactly is the remedy here within the community or religion? What does that say about the parents? If they are doing this without knowledge, in ignorance of the precepts of their own religion, again, what exactly is the remedy here within the community or religion? What does that say about the parents? But more to the point, what exactly is not dangerous about this situation for the woman involved or Muslim women in general in either case? They attempt to FORCE their daughter into marriage, with or without knowledge that Islam is, supposedly, against forcible marriage. What they don't know, or do know and violate anyway, can just as easily be taken from forcible marriage to honor killing.

5000+ honor killing deaths per year prove me right.

The danger exists. She should be aware of the danger and know that the ultimate safety is to leave and cut her family off completely.

I'd think I'd like Koshunter to pass that piece of advice to her. Anyone in her position could use a good laugh.

Of course, now we get to the real issue. The whole idea of honor killings or forced/arranged marriages is a complete non-issue for you. I could take you through facts again and again, but you would simply continue to ignore the issue as a whole when it actually comes to applicable relevance to Islamic communities. Instead, you continue arguing against the next point of the subject, almost as if what you claim are un-Islamic cultural practices were actually a definite part of your religion and identity that needed to be defended, and in spite of your apparent refusal to make any attempt to educate yourself.

To quote my previous post to heidern which I also find relevant here:

You say that Islam is directly opposed to this behavior, so where is there widespread condemnation in the Muslim world, or a normal commonly applied Islamic legal remedy and punishment? Where does this regularly occur in countries applying Islamic law? And if not that, where is the widespread condemnation, you know, something even remotely comparable to the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons uproar.

I guess there is one standard that I could find being applied here too, "under Islamic law, a lack of open objection, or silence, both amount to consent."...

 

[Hadji]

Nice how you selectively edit my posts down to comments you choose to reply to, the rest are apparently ignored. You have no basis for your implied assumption that she is not in any danger, which I have repeatedly stated and which you now have repeatedly ignored. But you want to focus on the one line comment about your faith's image, ignoring the obvious question I asked about what amounts to fairly obvious bias on your part when it comes to appraising another Muslim family... Amusing.

She is FAR less likely to remain safe and keep her Westernized individuality in a family like hers. You have no basis to claim otherwise.

Cicero, I think that it is obvious to everyone that is reading this that I am not responding to every idea that you put down here. The reason I don't is becaise I personally do not see a need to, or because a point has already been responded to in a previous post. Of course, you can always satisfy your ego by believing that I'm avoiding your "perfectly sound arguments."

I also don't see the connection between my stance and appraising other Muslim families, heck, I don't see the connection between the context and your advice.

Why do you defend against the idea of any possible danger to the woman as if it was an issue for Islam and not culture alone? You say one thing while doing another.

I also don't get how you end up interpretting that I'm turning this into an Islamic issue. If the girl really is in danger of getting killed, then yes, she should run away, obviously. However, I honestly don't see her in any danger with the amount of information that has been revealed to me.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

Nice how you selectively edit my posts down to comments you choose to reply to, the rest are apparently ignored. You have no basis for your implied assumption that she is not in any danger, which I have repeatedly stated and which you now have repeatedly ignored. But you want to focus on the one line comment about your faith's image, ignoring the obvious question I asked about what amounts to fairly obvious bias on your part when it comes to appraising another Muslim family... Amusing.

And why do you believe this girl's life is in danger? You keep emphasizing the word "forced", as if that means anything. Do you know exactly how they are forcing their daughter to take part in the marriage? Could it be that they are instead trying to persuade the girl, and that the OP (or the girl) simply made a poor choice of words? Moreover, you make pretty big leap when you claim that any family forcing their daughter into marriage is also likely to commit an honour killing. Are they more likely to do so? Probably. But it is still not likely to occur.

Think about what you're advocating here. A girl, not even out of high school, should abandon her family on the off-chance that they might murder her? Doesn't seem very reasonable to me, nor does it seem to be in her best interests. There are other ways this problem can be resolved. If she is looking for an Islamic solution, simply requesting the local imam speak to her parents should be sufficient.

If you actually paid attention to my previous posts you would see links to stories on those pages where women chose to disagree with their family and refuse marriage. You have provided absolutely NO alternative given the possible violent outcomes to these choices. In fact you have either dismissed, downplayed,or ignored that possibility entirely. This is clearly intellectually disingenuous.

You're being silly. I could cite stories of people getting shot outside their homes and argue that people are more likely to be shot outside their homes than within. But what does that say? That people shouldn't leave their homes? No, because the probability of you getting shot outside your home is still incredibly low. There is nothing ridiculous about that, and similarly for downplaying the risks in the case of the girl. The only reason these stories make the news in the first place is because they are exceptional cases.

Way to completely ignore the context of what I said. Not to mention the fact that you just got done saying that you had no belief in any connection between "honor killings" and forced/arranged marriages, then you didn't believe that "honor killings" were common at all, and now it is the implied argument that if 5000+ isn't completely from Islamic communities, somehow that negates its commonality. Go up and actually bother to read the wikipedia link I provided. Your intellectual laziness and apparent pointed refusal to actually educate yourself on the topic you are being defensive about is both inane and pathetic.

Speaking of context, Hadji was clearly talking about honour killings in the Islamic context (this is a thread about Islam, after all). There may have been a miscommunication between you two, but there is no need to be so rude and condescending about it.

You repeatedly bring up the 5000+ figure without providing any sort of context. What type of people commit these crimes? What countries do they tend to occur in? What relevance does this number have to this girl's specific case?
Yes, 5000 is a big number. But when 500 000 humans are murdered worldwide every year, would you expect each and every one of us to cower in fear, going to extreme and irrational lengths to ensure our personal safety?

Of course, now we get to the real issue. The whole idea of honor killings or forced/arranged marriages is a complete non-issue for you.

Why lump arranged and forced marriages together?

You say that Islam is directly opposed to this behavior, so where is there widespread condemnation in the Muslim world, or a normal commonly applied Islamic legal remedy and punishment? Where does this regularly occur in countries applying Islamic law? And if not that, where is the widespread condemnation, you know, something even remotely comparable to the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons uproar.

I guess there is one standard that I could find being applied here too, "under Islamic law, a lack of open objection, or silence, both amount to consent."...

Murder, including honor killing, is punishable by death under Islamic law (and this punishment is regularly applied). Is that tantamount to "widespread condemnation"?

 

[Verano]

Muslims of GAF, what's your opinion about former muslim woman, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and if you read her book, Infidel, share your thoughts about the book too please!

 

[AmMortal]

Muslims of GAF, what's your opinion about former muslim woman, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and if you read her book, Infidel, share your thoughts about the book too please!

Okay,

As I remember correctly, she had a problem with her family, some sort of "forced marraige"( which is wrong). For that she decided to take the blame to a whole religion.

She said in an interview ( I remember watching it in Holland) that muslims used to bury their daughters alive, while in fact Islam put an end to that. After that, why would anyone ever take her word seriously?

She lied to get an asylum in Holland, she claimed to be from Somalia, although she was in fact a kenian( or ethiopean) citizen. Which is why the Dutch authorities could no longer offer her protection.

A person like that does not have the right to put a label on a religion which she never was a part of or had understood true meaning of it, as it was her culture that did that to her( IF it ever happened) not Islam.

 

[kobashi100]

just seen this thread so wanted to say salaam alaikum brothers/sisters..

 

[Rei_Toei]

Okay,

As I remember correctly, she had a problem with her family, some sort of "forced marraige"( which is wrong). For that she decided to take the blame to a whole religion.

She said in an interview ( I remember watching it in Holland) that muslims used to bury their daughters alive, while in fact Islam put an end to that. After that, why would anyone ever take her word seriously?

She lied to get an asylum in Holland, she claimed to be from Somalia, although she was in fact a kenian( or ethiopean) citizen. Which is why the Dutch authorities could no longer offer her protection.

A person like that does not have the right to put a label on a religion which she never was a part of or had understood true meaning of it, as it was her culture that did that to her( IF it ever happened) not Islam.

Half her vagina was cut away in the name of Islam. Can't really blame here for being a little pissed of.

 

[castle007]

Half her vagina was cut away in the name of Islam. Can't really blame here for being a little pissed of.

yeah, but female circumcision isn't part of islam. That shows her parents' lack of knowledge about Islam. (it was actually her Grandfather that ordered the circumcision. Her dad was in jail and opposed it)

 

[Azih]

Half her vagina was cut away in the name of Islam. Can't really blame here for being a little pissed of.

Sure, but the counter that she doesn't address is that it was a cultural tradition masquerading as Islamic practice.

 

[Azih]

Well, the answer as you've probably noticed from my previous posts, is that I don't find it really hard to reject hadeeth when you come from a Shi'ite background. The reasons are simple. Mainly because the science isn't open to the public as much as it is to Sunnis.

That is such an insulting position to hold. Background has nothing to do with it.

 

[Azih]

Well, I've received two answers from different people.

My answer is that the method of prayer has *already* started to deviate. And has deviated for more than a millenia now. And frankly expecting a community of 1.5 billion people to have exactly the same method of prayer is completely unrealistic.

The correct approach is for people to get together and explain to each other why the details differ as they do to promote mutual understanding and not get angry and/or violent because of it.

 

[Rei_Toei]

yeah, but female circumcision isn't part of islam. That shows her parents' lack of knowledge about Islam.

I'm not denying this. As a lot of Muslims also have pointed out in this thread (and rightly so) there's a whole load of terrible things happening in the name of Islam, while nowhere in the Koran or other important religious texts such acts or behaviour is written down or approved. It's ignorant people applying primitive (sometimes perhaps cultural) stuff and claiming it is in the name of the religion. Doesn't change the fact that Muslims get the flack for it. And since those people happen to 'abuse' Islam in this way I'd say it's a PR problem Muslims should solve.

I just wanted to point out that the same argument is happily used by muslims (also in this thread) when talking about Christianity while it's just the same thing: people 'abusing' Christianity. Because most likely most Christians will dismiss a lot of awful things done in the name of Christianity as being un-Christian. Does not (again) change the fact that bad stuff happens in the name of religion and apparantly provides a moral justification for it.

I'm not accusing anyone in this thread of double standards but to me it seems all the same: people defending their religion but unwilling to accept that a truckload of horrible stuff happens in the name of their religion, always eager to point out the other religion's extremists and not willing to take any responsibility or accepting the fact that religion is always an easy tool in the hands of ignorant people to justify a wide variety of degrading acts.

 

[Hadji]

yeah, but female circumcision isn't part of islam.

Female circumcision is acceptable in Islam, but not mandatory. Genital mutilation is forbidden.

The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Cut off only the foreskin (outer fold of skin over the clitoris; the prepuce) but do not cut off deeply (i.e. the clitoris itself), for this is brighter for the face (of the girl) and more favorable with the husband."

I'm not an expert in the issue, but apparently circumcised women have a smaller chance of contracting herpes and other types of diseases.

 

[Azih]

The big problem Rei Toi is that this isn't a 'PR problem' that any one individual or even a group can really solve. I can't control the actions of my 1.5 billion fellow muslims. And if I or my religion gets labelled with all the bad things that happen in that 1.5 billion than all I can point out is that is unfair and unfounded slander.

I'm not sure what you mean by taking responsiblity. Distancing oneself from the ugly actions of contemporaries is the first step towards condemning it and plenty of people from the Islamic world *do* condemn what happened to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Now if your argument is that not enough do then I fully agree with you on that.

 

[Rei_Toei]

The big problem Rei Toi is that this isn't a 'PR problem' that any one individual or even a group can really solve. I can't control the actions of my 1.5 billion fellow muslims. And if I or my religion gets labelled with all the bad things that happen in that 1.5 billion than all I can point out is that is unfair and unfounded slander.

I'm not sure what you mean by taking responsiblity. Distancing oneself from the ugly actions of contemporaries is the first step towards condemning it and plenty of people from the Islamic world *do* condemn what happened to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Now if your argument is that not enough do then I fully agree with you on that.

I agree with you on the fact you can't control 1.5 billion fellow Muslims. What I miss (and one of the reasons why I said I think Islam has an image problem) is that the more (misguided as they may be) extremist Muslims have taken the religion and the discussion 'hostage'. In my opinion the more moderate Muslims are not speaking out enough against those extremists enough and it's enormously damaging for the image of the entire religion.

 

[Azih]

There's two things here:

First off Muslims in developing nations don't particularly know what first worlders think and quite a lot don't care.

Secondly as for extremists taking the religion 'hostage'. Guess who gets more media coverage? The crazies. Makes for better coverage. Earnest middle class protestors don't have the same ratings appeal.

 

[Azih]

There's a thing happening in Canada right now where 18 Muslims were grabbed and thrown into jail for 2 years on terrorism related charges. The case was always crap and is now falling apart completely and as some of these kids finally get released on bail (they were in solitary confinement for a crazy long time too) finally some stories are coming out about how their families were affected. The mother of one of these kids just kept on repeating "We're normal. We're normal" throughtout an interview. It was sad to see, and the case falling apart isn't getting nearly as much coverage as the arrests did (the first day in court for these guys had freaking helicopters and snipers blanketing the courthouse).

 

[kobashi100]

I agree with you on the fact you can't control 1.5 billion fellow Muslims. What I miss (and one of the reasons why I said I think Islam has an image problem) is that the more (misguided as they may be) extremist Muslims have taken the religion and the discussion 'hostage'. In my opinion the more moderate Muslims are not speaking out enough against those extremists enough and it's enormously damaging for the image of the entire religion.

What is a moderate Muslim? Someone who believes that the Islamic world should embrace secularism, capitalism and democracy. Here in the UK the media love this moderate vs extremist fight. There is no such thing as moderate or extreme islam. Is an extremist someone who calls for the Muslim world to be united under a caliphate, someone who vocally supports resistance against occupation in Palestine, Iraq etc? Someone who does not recognize the state of Israel.

 

[Rei_Toei]

Moderate muslims are the hundreds of millions that don't shove religion or a bomb up my ass. Bonus points when they dislike the ones that do shove bombs and religion as much as I do.

 

[Oblivion]

Female circumcision is acceptable in Islam, but not mandatory. Genital mutilation is forbidden.

Isn't female circumcision genital mutilation, tho?

 

[Guled]

There's a thing happening in Canada right now where 18 Muslims were grabbed and thrown into jail for 2 years on terrorism related charges. The case was always crap and is now falling apart completely and as some of these kids finally get released on bail (they were in solitary confinement for a crazy long time too) finally some stories are coming out about how their families were affected. The mother of one of these kids just kept on repeating "We're normal. We're normal" throughtout an interview. It was sad to see, and the case falling apart isn't getting nearly as much coverage as the arrests did (the first day in court for these guys had freaking helicopters and snipers blanketing the courthouse).

Well some of the ones they arrested are clearly terrorists (i remember a tape on the news about them planing it out clearly, and I think one of the guys was found with a ton of explosive material when he got arrested). But some are innocent and got arrested because of false intelligence and knowing the others. It seems like the police were pressed into getting some quick arrests and some innocent people got dragged into it.

 

[castle007]

Female circumcision is acceptable in Islam, but not mandatory. Genital mutilation is forbidden.

The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Cut off only the foreskin (outer fold of skin over the clitoris; the prepuce) but do not cut off deeply (i.e. the clitoris itself), for this is brighter for the face (of the girl) and more favorable with the husband."

I'm not an expert in the issue, but apparently circumcised women have a smaller chance of contracting herpes and other types of diseases.

all of the hadiths regarding female circumcision are weak and most islamic scholars have agreed they are not legitimate.