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[SoulPlaya]

We disagree I think on how important of a role Islam plays in these countires problems. Which is a different thing. I mentioned Iran as well in my original post look it up. And I'm saying it really wouldn't be. For one thing a lot of the ugly things in those countries are *cultural* rather than religious. Forbidding women to drive isn't a muslim thing, it's not even an *Arab* thing. It's unique to a few Arab countries. Like I said all the countries that you mention have extremely different problems (with the possible exception of Kuwait and Saudi). In each of those countries you will find other things going on that are much more pressing and have nothing to do with religion. Now I am most familiar with Pakistan, Saudi, and Iran but even a cursory examination of your other examples shows the same thing. African countries are all in extremely bad situations, the fact that Muslim African countries are as well doesn't exactly show anything about Islam. Sudan has a lot of ethnic and tribal violence. African Muslim Sudanese are discriminated against as well by the Arab Muslim rulers.

And you didn't note WHY I brought them up. It was to point out that the common factor is the THIRD WORLD aspect. Which is much much more important than the religous aspect.

*Never* said that. I'll quote myself again

NEVER said that either.

In this thread? You're not paying attention then.

"Further take every country that is having troubles where you are blaming "Islam" for its woes and take a look at its history and you'll find a whole bunch of unique problems that each is facing that has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Pakistan is controlled in large parts by people who are practically feudal landlords and aren't much interested in progress, needs to spend a crazy amount of GDP on its millitary to keep up with its richer rival in India, has a multitude of regional splits, has one of the most unstable countries in history, Afghanistan, on its western border which is also the world's supply of opium and uses Pakistan as the route to get it there. Iraq and Lebanon are countries that never should have existed in the first place as it threw together peoples that were not ready to be in the same nation (despite the 'all controlling Islam') by careless colonial powers that just didn't give a fuck (Iraq has the additional burden of being led by the divisive bastard Saddam Hussien who was propped up by support from the west). Iran was doing very well for itself actually and had created a homegrown democracy BY THEMSELVES in the mid twentieth century which was smashed to shit by a coup engineered by the Americans and Brits which is what led to not only the Ayatollahs when the people rose up to kick the Western totalitarian repressive puppet out but worse the justified extreme paronia that country has of Western powers. Etc. Etc. Et freaking cetera."

You did say that.

You also said that most Muslims don't follow Hadji's beliefs and tried to make it seem as if they were a small minority. It wasn't until PhlegmMaster posted that article about british Muslims that you changed your tune. My problem is that you're trying to make it sound as if Muslims have their beliefs because they are in a THIRD WORLD country. But 36% of young British Muslims raised in Britain still hold those same barbaric beliefs. As do many in other European countries. And there are plenty in the US too. The reason why they don't do too much damage is because they have relatively little power in these countries. You brought up the "women can't drive" issue, but what about the beatings? The killing of Apostates? The Qu'ran has plenty of verses that can be misconstrued, and are contradictory.

Truth be told, though, it's not even the Qu'ran. It's the problem with the Hadiths, hundreds of which probably had nothing to do with Muhammed. Anytime a new power came to be, all of a sudden they introduced hundreds of hadiths to justify their BS power. And can you please point some of these Muslims in this thread who have been appaled by Hadji's saying about apostates.

 

[Kapsama]

So am I the only one who believes that Hadji will end up in a CIA Van real soon?

 

[Azih]

You did say that.

Yes I did and I hold to the bolded bit. Ethnic and nationlist strife, feudal landlords, an overfunded millitary, underfunded infrastructure, etc. have nothing whatsoever to do with religion

You also said that most Muslims don't follow Hadji's beliefs

No I didn't. What I said was

Most muslims don't go into this much detail at all.

And I hold to that.

but what about the beatings? The killing of Apostates?

What about them?

The Qu'ran has plenty of verses that can be misconstrued,

Yes, anything and everything can be miscontrued.

and are contradictory.

This I don't agree with.

Truth be told, though, it's not even the Qu'ran.

That's what I'm saying.

It's the problem with the Hadiths

Now you see the argument I'm having with Hadji.

And can you please point some of these Muslims in this thread who have been appaled by Hadji's saying about apostates.

Riz III, me, GSG Flash, Kinitari (former Muslim who doesn't agree that most Muslims agree with Hadji, Fighty F adds extra conditions onto apostasy which pretty much makes it the same thing as treason against the state. Somehow I doubt pakkit would agree with Hadji either.

 

[Linkhero1]

So am I the only one who believes that Hadji will end up in a CIA Van real soon?

:lol oh wow

 

[castle007]

I believe that the only time killing an apostate is justified is if they start preaching against islam and coming up with lies.

That happened after the prophet's death. Some guy (I forgot his name) started coming up with fake verses and he claimed that he is the new prophet from god and that people should follow him and rebel against islam. He was killed and rightfully so.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I believe that the only time killing an apostate is justified is if they start preaching against islam and coming up with lies.

That happened after the prophet's death. Some guy (I forgot his name) started coming up with fake verses and he claimed that he is the new prophet from god and that people should follow him and rebel against islam. He was killed and rightfully so.

Damn, that's a fucked up belief.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Yes I did and I hold to the bolded bit. Ethnic and nationlist strife, feudal landlords, an overfunded millitary, underfunded infrastructure, etc. have nothing whatsoever to do with religion
No I didn't. What I said was And I hold to that.

What about them?

Yes, anything and everything can be miscontrued. This I don't agree with.

That's what I'm saying.

Now you see the argument I'm having with Hadji.


Riz III, me, GSG Flash, Kinitari (former Muslim who doesn't agree that most Muslims agree with Hadji, Fighty F adds extra conditions onto apostasy which pretty much makes it the same thing as treason against the state. Somehow I doubt pakkit would agree with Hadji either.

Let me ask you then about Surah 9:5?

 

[castle007]

Damn, that's a fucked up belief.

excuse me??? Treason is punishable by death in many countries even the U.S

 

[castle007]

Let me ask you then about Surah 9:5?

aaaaaaahhhh, not this again. :lol

I believe there was a very good explanation about this in the Himuro thread.

It basically means that if the sacred months have passed and these people are still conspiring against Islam and aiding the enemies then you have the right to fight them in defense.

 

[SoulPlaya]

excuse me??? Treason is punishable by death in many countries even the U.S

It's not your country. What did they do? Give out Muslim secrets to Jews?

 

[SoulPlaya]

aaaaaaahhhh, not this again. :lol

I believe there was a very good explanation about this in the Himuro thread.

I know one of the explanations, that the Qu'ran has scattered verses that must be placed in order. When done so, it means only attack those who have attacked you. It's still contradictory, though, and many Muslims in the world believe that because 9:5 comes after the previous "don't attack first) verses it overwrites them.

 

[castle007]

It's not your country. What did they do? Give out Muslim secrets to Jews?

what do you mean? I am kind of confused by this post

 

[castle007]

I know one of the explanations, that the Qu'ran has scattered verses that must be placed in order. When done so, it means only attack those who have attacked you. It's still contradictory, though, and many Muslims in the world believe that because 9:5 comes after the previous "don't attack first) verses it overwrites them.

how is it contradictory? It clearly states in the verses before it and after it that you are not supposed to harm tribes, nations who have made treaties with you and are not aiding your enemies.

People like to twist these verses to their own liking and that is why you find minorities like Taliban and other terrorists who only select certain verses withouth reading the whole sura. These people don't know their own religion!!!

 

[Fady K]

Some of you non-Muslims in the thread might have misunderstood the meaning of the 'killing an apostate' concept. Know that an apostate isn't 'murdered' - he is executed after taking rather extreme measures - that is, after fully "understanding" Islam, embracing it only to reject it - AND spread misinformation - are then ordered to be executed by Islamic law.

 

[Fady K]

how is it contradictory? It clearly states in the verses before it and after it that you are not supposed to harm tribes, nations who have made treaties with you and are not aiding your enemies.

People like to twist these verses to their own liking and that is why you find minorities like Taliban and other terrorists who only select certain verses withouth reading the whol sura. These people don't know their own religion!!!

Exactly!

I love how the non-Muslims look at the Talian/Al Qaeda/etc as the image of Islam. It would be equivalent, in a way, to looking at Christianity through the child-molesting priests or Judaism through Israelis.

 

[castle007]

Some of you non-Muslims in the thread might have misunderstood the meaning of the 'killing an apostate' concept. Know that an apostate isn't 'murdered' - he is executed after taking rather extreme measures - that is, after fully "understanding" Islam, embracing it only to reject it - AND spread misinformation - are then ordered to be executed by Islamic law.

that is what I said too. Treason is a serious crime in every country.

 

[speculawyer]

excuse me??? Treason is punishable by death in many countries even the U.S

Treason is taking action against the country.

You are CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED to bad-mouth the USA as much as you want. And you are free to leave at any time.

HUGE DIFFERENCE!

Bad-mouthing a religion and being killed for it . . . that is fucked up. It's an abuse of human rights.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

That happened after the prophet's death. Some guy (I forgot his name) started coming up with fake verses and he claimed that he is the new prophet from god and that people should follow him and rebel against islam. He was killed and rightfully so.

What you just described sounds like Jesus from the Jewish perspective, Muhammed from the Christain perspective, and that Morman guy from the Christain/Mulsim perspective.

 

[Fady K]

Treason is taking action against the country.

You are CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED to bad-mouth the USA as much as you want. And you are free to leave at any time.

HUGE DIFFERENCE!

Bad-mouthing a religion and being killed for it . . . that is fucked up. It's an abuse of human rights.

Speculawyer, you are missing the point here. Its not about bad mouthing the religion, its about being an ACTUAL Muslim at one point and then rejecting it followed by SPREADING misinformation. That is quite different than what you said up there - you said bad mouthing a religion. Islam doesnt forbid non-Muslims from bad mouthing the religion, in fact - it is FORBIDDEN for Muslims to even MOCK other religions.

 

[SoulPlaya]

how is it contradictory? It clearly states in the verses before it and after it that you are not supposed to harm tribes, nations who have made treaties with you and are not aiding your enemies.

People like to twist these verses to their own liking and that is why you find minorities like Taliban and other terrorists who only select certain verses withouth reading the whole sura. These people don't know their own religion!!!

First of all, the verses in each Surah have nothing really to do with one another. 9:4 could've been said by Mohammed months before 9:5 or months afterwards. Either way, say your right. does that mean that nations who do no harm to you but DON'T have a treaty are open game?

 

[SoulPlaya]

Speculawyer, you are missing the point here. Its not about bad mouthing the religion, its about being an ACTUAL Muslim at one point and then rejecting it followed by SPREADING misinformation. That is quite different than what you said up there - you said bad mouthing a religion. Islam doesnt forbid non-Muslims from bad mouthing the religion, in fact - it is FORBIDDEN for Muslims to even MOCK other religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Shafi_tradition

This is what constitutes apostasy from the Shafi tradition. A bit more than misinformation. Hell, just reviling Islam can get you death.

 

[castle007]

What you just described sounds like Jesus from the Jewish perspective, Muhammed from the Christain perspective, and that Morman guy from the Christain/Mulsim perspective.

except, Mohammad didn't reject Jesus, and Jesus didn't reject Moses.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

. Islam doesnt forbid non-Muslims from bad mouthing the religion.

I would think not. Scripture typically doesn't adress non-believers with instructions.

 

[castle007]

First of all, the verses in each Surah have nothing really to do with one another. 9:4 could've been said by Mohammed months before 9:5 or months afterwards. Either way, say your right. does that mean that nations who do no harm to you but DON'T have a treaty are open game?

no, but if these nation don't harm Islam and are not aiding the enemies then I am pretty sure that they will end up being allies.

 

[speculawyer]

Some of you non-Muslims in the thread might have misunderstood the meaning of the 'killing an apostate' concept. Know that an apostate isn't 'murdered' - he is executed after taking rather extreme measures - that is, after fully "understanding" Islam, embracing it only to reject it - AND spread misinformation - are then ordered to be executed by Islamic law.

"misinformation" is in the eye of the beholder. "Misinformation" like Allah is a fictional entity? That is what most of the world believes since most of the world is not Muslim.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

except, Mohamma didn't reject Jesus, and Jesus didn't reject Moses.

Jesus did reject Jewish tradition, and defied all the Jewish religious leaders. The jews percieved him as a blasphemer and crucified him.

Mohammed rejected Jesus as the Messiah, and paints him as a prophet - which is a lie in the eyes of christains. Christains formed a crusade and waged war against Islam.

Are people really so thick that they cannot not see the mistakes of history repeating themselves?

 

[Fady K]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Shafi_tradition

This is what constitutes apostasy from the Shafi tradition. A bit more than misinformation. Hell, just reviling Islam can get you death.

Reviling Islam doesn't get you death, again - its reviling Islam as an ex-Muslim who 'understood' Islam. Besides - lets get real - little to no Muslims who mock Islam ever probably understood it in the first place.

I read the wikipedia you link - and yes, it is more than just spreading information that can get you killed - but when was the last time you've read or heard about any Muslim doing such a thing from what was listen in the link you sent, and was actually put to death.

 

[speculawyer]

Speculawyer, you are missing the point here. Its not about bad mouthing the religion, its about being an ACTUAL Muslim at one point and then rejecting it followed by SPREADING misinformation. That is quite different than what you said up there - you said bad mouthing a religion. Islam doesnt forbid non-Muslims from bad mouthing the religion, in fact - it is FORBIDDEN for Muslims to even MOCK other religions.

I am an ACTUAL American citizen . . . and I am CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED to spread misinformation about the USA if I choose.

How is that different?

Being an actual muslim then changing religions and spreading "misinformation" about Islam should be allowed . . . not punished by death.

Imagine the world if every religion had this rule of "If you leave our religion and then speak against it, the penalty is death." How fucked up would that be?

A world of endless killings over fictional Gods! . . . a statement you should agree with since no matter what God you have, you think all the other Gods are fictional. Everyone else's shit stink but yours.

 

[SoulPlaya]

no, but if these nation don't harm Islam and are not aiding the enemies then I am pretty sure that they will end up being allies.

But doesn't it say in Surah 9:5 that if the refuse to become muslims, you're supposed to kill them?

 

[Fady K]

I would think not. Scripture typically doesn't adress non-believers with instructions.

Yeah, well I got news for you - those who don't follow the scripture are practicing their own "Islam" - and what I mean by that is that they are practicing their own religion, which is blashpemic in itself - ESPECIALLY when they are Muslims as they are the ones who ultimately give a bad image to what Islam really is - even moreso than those they kill.

You're being too general here.

"misinformation" is in the eye of the beholder. "Misinformation" like Allah is a fictional entity? That is what most of the world believes since most of the world is not Muslim.

Islam clearly stated the kinds of "misinformation" that apostates can spread - it was clear from the beginning of Islam. Those who truly practice Islam will DEFINITELY bump into this information. Its there.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Reviling Islam doesn't get you death, again - its reviling Islam as an ex-Muslim who 'understood' Islam. Besides - lets get real - little to no Muslims who mock Islam ever probably understood it in the first place.

I read the wikipedia you link - and yes, it is more than just spreading information that can get you killed - but when was the last time you've read or heard about any Muslim doing such a thing from what was listen in the link you sent, and was actually put to death.

If it is more than just spreading misinformation, then why did you say it was just spreading misinformation? And WE GET IT!!! The rules of apostasy only pertain to ex-Muslims, WE UNDERSTAND, AND WE STILL FIND IT HORRIFIC.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

Yeah, well I got news for you - those who don't follow the scripture are practicing their own "Islam" - and what I mean by that is that they are practicing their own religion, which is blashpemic in itself - ESPECIALLY when they are Muslims as they are the ones who ultimately give a bad image to what Islam really is - even moreso than those they kill.

I honestly don't understand. Is there a way you can paraphrase that? You don't really mean everyone is practicing their own adaption of Islam, whether they acknowledge it or not?

 

[Fady K]

I am an ACTUAL American citizen . . . and I am CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED to spread misinformation about the USA if I choose.

How is that different?

Being an actual muslim then changing religions and spreading "misinformation" about Islam should be allowed . . . not punished by death.

Imagine the world if every religion had this rule of "If you leave our religion and then speak against it, the penalty is death." How fucked up would that be?

A world of endless killings over fictional Gods! . . . a statement you should agree with since no matter what God you have, you think all the other Gods are fictional. Everyone else's shit stink but yours.

Speculawyer, you cannot compare religions to nations. They are completely different in every sense of the word. Nations can change through time, and have a completely different level of flexibility that religion does not, and will not, offer. Because religion has a basis that is not meant to change - whereas through time, nations can change their basis if they simply choose to.

When it comes to a nation - I agree with you, you should have a right as a human being to say what you want to - of course, when the country permits it.

However, when it comes to religion, who are we to say whats effed up and what isn't. We did not create the different religion(s) of this world, the messengers of God of each respective religion did.

Also, I might have not made it clear - but you realize that a sane person who can think for himself should very well research the kind of religion he wants to join before simply joining it no? C'mon, lets be realistic here - who's going to become a Muslim just like that without knowing what being a Muslim is about? ONCE they know what its about, they HAVE the choice to reject it, as they would not be interested and choose not to join it. Do you see the difference?

And if for Muslims, this was a world of endless killing over fictional Gods - then Muslims all over the world (which there are many of) would be on a killing spree, would they not? But no, that is not the case, and ill tell you one reason why - because a true Muslim (and by true - i mean those who follow the scriptures and the hadith, and not those like the Taliban and Qaeda) would NEVER be allowed in any shape or form to take the life of anyone who believes in something else.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Speculawyer, you cannot compare religions to nations. They are completely different in every sense of the word. Nations can change through time, and have a completely different level of flexibility that religion does not, and will not, offer. Because religion has a basis that is not meant to change - whereas through time, nations can change their basis if they simply choose to.

When it comes to a nation - I agree with you, you should have a right as a human being to say what you want to - of course, when the country permits it.

However, when it comes to religion, who are we to say whats effed up and what isn't. We did not create the different religion(s) of this world, the messengers of God of each respective religion did.

Also, I might have not made it clear - but you realize that a sane person who can think for himself should very well research the kind of religion he wants to join before simply joining it no? C'mon, lets be realistic here - who's going to become a Muslim just like that without knowing what being a Muslim is about? ONCE they know what its about, they HAVE the choice to reject it, as they would not be interested and choose not to join it. Do you see the difference?

And if for Muslims, this was a world of endless killing over fictional Gods - then Muslims all over the world (which there are many of) would be on a killing spree, would they not? But no, that is not the case, and ill tell you one reason why - because a true Muslim (and by true - i mean those who follow the scriptures and the hadith, and not those like the Taliban and Qaeda) would NEVER be allowed in any shape or form to take the life of anyone who believes in something else.

What if you're born Muslim?

 

[castle007]

But doesn't it say in Surah 9:5 that if the refuse to become muslims, you're supposed to kill them?

no. These verses discuss the rules of fighting. Other verses do that too. Verse five is talking about the nations that are not our allies and are supporting enemies of islam and/or attacking it. It says that when the sacred months are over and these people haven't stopped attacking Islam or aiding the enemies, then you can attack them, unless they repent.

 

[speculawyer]

Yeah, well I got news for you - those who don't follow the scripture are practicing their own "Islam" - and what I mean by that is that they are practicing their own religion, which is blashpemic in itself - ESPECIALLY when they are Muslims as they are the ones who ultimately give a bad image to what Islam really is - even moreso than those they kill.

So who decides exactly what Islam really is? Well . . . it depends on which strain of Islam you follow . . . Sunni? Shia? Sufi? And how did you decide which strain you follow?

Picking a particular strain to follow and the tenets of that strain are both man-made decisions. You are not follow God's law . . . you are following Man's law.

It is impossible for the "real" Islam to ever be determined . . . all choices are arbitrary man-made choices.

Everyone is a blasphemer so everyone should kill themselves!! Oh no! Wait! Since it was impossible to determine the 'real' Islam and truly understand it, no one should be killed! YEAH!!!!

The Islamic death-penalty for Apostates disappears in a poof of logic! :lol

 

[SoulPlaya]

no. These verses discuss the rules of fighting. Other verses do that too. Verse five is talking about the nations that are not our allies and are supporting enemies of islam and/or attacking it. It says that when the sacred months are over and these people haven't stopped attacking Islam or aiding the enemies, then you can attack them, unless they repent.

No, it's not. First of all, I already told you that 9:4 has nothing to do with 9:5 but let's say you're right. It says treaty AND if they are not attacking you. If there is no treaty, then kill them all unless they become Muslims.

 

[castle007]

What if you're born Muslim?

Everyone is born a muslim.

But I understand what you are saying. If you were born a muslim then you are very lucky to be raised while learning about and practicing this wonderful religion.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

In my opinion, a 'true believer' is an elusive ideal. Practically speaking, everyone has different interpretations, different ideas. We can't just start killing each other because we don't agree.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

Everyone is born a muslim.
.

Can someone please explain this to me? Muslim in principle, practice, heritage? I need help on this one.

 

[Fady K]

If it is more than just spreading misinformation, then why did you say it was just spreading misinformation? And WE GET IT!!! The rules of apostasy only pertain to ex-Muslims, WE UNDERSTAND, AND WE STILL FIND IT HORRIFIC.

Because, my friend, in the world we live in today - no one is put to death when it comes to the factors listed in the wikipedia link you sent me, THATS why I didnt mention it. And if you do know a case where someone was put to death for one of the factors listed on that link, please share the story with a source.

Again - you can't really understand the concept of apostasy "murder" as you put it, because you clearly failed to bring up the point that before someone becomes a Muslim - they learn what it means to become a Muslim - and then they have the RIGHT to choose - you see?

I honestly don't understand. Is there a way you can paraphrase that? You don't really mean everyone is practicing their own adaption of Islam, whether they acknowledge it or not?

Sure, and sorry for the long post - let me try to make it clearer as to what im trying to say. Since they are pretty much known today, I will use Taliban and Al Qaeda as an example. The "Muslims" that fall in either of these 2 groups are supposedly Sunni Muslims (the main Islamic sect) - yet they pull of a LOT of crap that Islam is against. Let me provide you with a story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_re_as/afghan_aid_workers_killed_10

Thats a recent story, very recent. The Muslims your read about in this story (Taliban members) have committed one of the biggest sins in Islam - murder. They murdered three innocent aid workers who were even completely defenseless - and even an Afghani driver. This stuff is condemned in Islam. This stuff is -completely- against Islam.

Heck, did you know that Islam even forbids you from torturing a WAR prisoner?? Even in the battlefield, it is FORBIDDEN for a Muslim to kill an enemy in a more brutal way when there is a faster, quicker way to kill the enemy. Why am I stating these examples? To show you that even in a warzone when fighting people who are out to kill you - even in such a case, Islam doesn't allow anything but a quick death - in other words, its a lot more peaceful than people think.

The Taliban in the example news story I provided, however, are doing anything BUT peaceful - such "Muslims" are not exactly following their religion when pulling off such acts - in fact, they are going EXACTLY against it. Just because they are Arab Muslims who fight "in the name of God" (God how i HATE that excuse) doesn't mean jack - maybe it helps them feel better about the atrocities they constantly pull off. Hence, these people are the wrong crowd to look at regarding Islam at all - because what they practise may be Islam by name, and nothing else. Its deceptive, and in my opinion, its one of the biggest factors of misinformation about Islam in the world today.

 

[speculawyer]

Speculawyer, you cannot compare religions to nations. They are completely different in every sense of the word. Nations can change through time, and have a completely different level of flexibility that religion does not, and will not, offer. Because religion has a basis that is not meant to change - whereas through time, nations can change their basis if they simply choose to.

When it comes to a nation - I agree with you, you should have a right as a human being to say what you want to - of course, when the country permits it.

It wasn't my analogy . . . and I agree it not a good one. Nations have enforceable laws. Religions are arbitrary sets of rules & beliefs that you can choose to follow or not.

However, when it comes to religion, who are we to say whats effed up and what isn't. We did not create the different religion(s) of this world, the messengers of God of each respective religion did.

Well guess what . . . I am a messenger from God and I am telling you how it is! HA! I bet you didn't see that one coming!

We are all free to choose what ever we want. However, most people are cowards that live in fear over what their family might think, what their priest/pastor/imam might think, how the diety their parents told them about will punish them

Also, I might have not made it clear - but you realize that a sane person who can think for himself should very well research the kind of religion he wants to join before simply joining it no? C'mon, lets be realistic here - who's going to become a Muslim just like that without knowing what being a Muslim is about? ONCE they know what its about, they HAVE the choice to reject it, as they would not be interested and choose not to join it. Do you see the difference?

As the person above said . . . we get it . . . We still think it is horrifying. Everyone should have the right to change their mind about their religion.

And if for Muslims, this was a world of endless killing over fictional Gods - then Muslims all over the world (which there are many of) would be on a killing spree, would they not? But no, that is not the case, and ill tell you one reason why - because a true Muslim (and by true - i mean those who follow the scriptures and the hadith, and not those like the Taliban and Qaeda) would NEVER be allowed in any shape or form to take the life of anyone who believes in something else.

I know they generally don't do this . . . and that is great. But I don't think it should EVER happen. It was a hypothetical created to point out how unjust and stupid the rule is. I think most Muslims know it is unjust & stupid and hence they don't follow it. AND THAT IS AN AWESOME THING!

 

[TheRagnCajun]

I appreciate that explanation Fady, but it doesn't quite address my question. The example you used, the Taliiban, are self-professed Muslims. I can fully understand how they think they are right yet in the eyes of other Muslims they are wrong.


However,

You said everyone is practicing their own version of 'Islam'. Explain to me how someone who does not acknowledge himself as muslim, and has no apparent ties to Islam, is still practicing their own version of 'Islam'?

 

[Fady K]

So who decides exactly what Islam really is? Well . . . it depends on which strain of Islam you follow . . . Sunni? Shia? Sufi? And how did you decide which strain you follow?

Picking a particular strain to follow and the tenets of that strain are both man-made decisions. You are not follow God's law . . . you are following Man's law.

It is impossible for the "real" Islam to ever be determined . . . all choices are arbitrary man-made choices.

Everyone is a blasphemer so everyone should kill themselves!! Oh no! Wait! Since it was impossible to determine the 'real' Islam and truly understand it, no one should be killed! YEAH!!!!

The Islamic death-penalty for Apostates disappears in a poof of logic! :lol

First off, if you knew Islam well and learned about it, trust me when i say it will be PAINFULLY obvious which sect it is that should be followed - hint - theres one.
How do we decide which strain to follow? Simple - the more we learn about the religion, the closer well get to the answer. That is our responsibility - if we are to believe in something, its not a matter of saying "I believe" only, its a matter of learning too, and those who are more than lazy Muslims by name who probably dont even know the meaning behind their own sect - should most likely learn more and discover - its not a puzzle by the way, as i said earlier, the more you read into the OFFICIAL Islamic scriptures found in the Quran and the Hadiths, the more obvious things will become. THAT is how a Muslim decides. Sure, its a man-made decision - but the difference is some people base that decision on jack, while others base their decision on Islamic scriptures - to which there eventually would be ONE decision left

God's law is stated in the Quran and the Hadiths. Its that simple. It has nothing to do with man's law, it is however, man's decision obviously.

See, now wheres that logic you were talking about given this info?

 

[speculawyer]

Everyone is born a muslim.

But I understand what you are saying. If you were born a muslim then you are very lucky to be raised while learning about and practicing this wonderful religion.

Everyone is born with no religion. It is only through the indoctrination, peer pressure, and the liberal use of fear that people fall into line.

Seriously . . . if a baby was born and then placed on an island with infinite food and no danger . . . when you came back 30 years later, what religion would that person be practicing? Either none or most likely some religion that the person created on their own.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Because, my friend, in the world we live in today - no one is put to death when it comes to the factors listed in the wikipedia link you sent me, THATS why I didnt mention it. And if you do know a case where someone was put to death for one of the factors listed on that link, please share the story with a source.

Again - you can't really understand the concept of apostasy "murder" as you put it, because you clearly failed to bring up the point that before someone becomes a Muslim - they learn what it means to become a Muslim - and then they have the RIGHT to choose - you see?



Sure, and sorry for the long post - let me try to make it clearer as to what im trying to say. Since they are pretty much known today, I will use Taliban and Al Qaeda as an example. The "Muslims" that fall in either of these 2 groups are supposedly Sunni Muslims (the main Islamic sect) - yet they pull of a LOT of crap that Islam is against. Let me provide you with a story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_re_as/afghan_aid_workers_killed_10

Thats a recent story, very recent. The Muslims your read about in this story (Taliban members) have committed one of the biggest sins in Islam - murder. They murdered three innocent aid workers who were even completely defenseless - and even an Afghani driver. This stuff is condemned in Islam. This stuff is -completely- against Islam.

Heck, did you know that Islam even forbids you from torturing a WAR prisoner?? Even in the battlefield, it is FORBIDDEN for a Muslim to kill an enemy in a more brutal way when there is a faster, quicker way to kill the enemy. Why am I stating these examples? To show you that even in a warzone when fighting people who are out to kill you - even in such a case, Islam doesn't allow anything but a quick death - in other words, its a lot more peaceful than people think.

The Taliban in the example news story I provided, however, are doing anything BUT peaceful - such "Muslims" are not exactly following their religion when pulling off such acts - in fact, they are going EXACTLY against it. Just because they are Arab Muslims who fight "in the name of God" (God how i HATE that excuse) doesn't mean jack - maybe it helps them feel better about the atrocities they constantly pull off. Hence, these people are the wrong crowd to look at regarding Islam at all - because what they practise may be Islam by name, and nothing else. Its deceptive, and in my opinion, its one of the biggest factors of misinformation about Islam in the world today.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188986,00.html
AND WE GET IT!! We are saying what if someone still understands it but yet later on still decides to leave for another religion. Should he be killed? And because of "misinformation", which we have already proven is not the only way he can be killed? What if he goes to Church and someone says" Hey, weren't you Muslim, what happened?" And he says, "I realized it was all BS, I'm with Jesus now". Many would consider that "misinformation" and say he should be killed.

 

[castle007]

No, it's not. First of all, I already told you that 9:4 has nothing to do with 9:5 but let's say you're right. It says treaty AND if they are not attacking you. If there is no treaty, then kill them all unless they become Muslims.

yes it does. These verses and the first fourty verses of this sura were revealed on the biggest day of Hajj. And they have to do with what to do with treaties and tribes that break them. Verse five refers to killing people (obviously not women and children) who broke these treaties and aided the enemies. These people have four months to reconsider their actions, and there is no fighting in these four months.

 

[Fady K]

It wasn't my analogy . . . and I agree it not a good one. Nations have enforceable laws. Religions are arbitrary sets of rules & beliefs that you can choose to follow or not.



Well guess what . . . I am a messenger from God and I am telling you how it is! HA! I bet you didn't see that one coming!

Do you think that that is how it was with Mohammed - a simple little "I am a messenger of God and that is how it is." Come on.

We are all free to choose what ever we want. However, most people are cowards that live in fear over what their family might think, what their priest/pastor/imam might think, how the diety their parents told them about will punish them

Yes - we ARE free to choose, there is *no* forcing for someone to become a Muslim. It is the person's decision in the end. While its true most people are cowards from their families about making their own decision - its really the family who you should blame in this case and not the religion. As for the imams in Islam, they are open to discussing anything and trying to help you out as much as they could, contrary to what many people think. In fact, it is their DUTY to help out people who ask them for ANY info as much as they could.

As the person above said . . . we get it . . . We still think it is horrifying. Everyone should have the right to change their mind about their religion.

Its not about simply changing your mind about your religion, this is quite a deep topic that I would be more than interested to talk about however I must rest now! More soon! But please, bring up any points you might not understand or need to argue about.

I know they generally don't do this . . . and that is great. But I don't think it should EVER happen. It was a hypothetical created to point out how unjust and stupid the rule is. I think most Muslims know it is unjust & stupid and hence they don't follow it. AND THAT IS AN AWESOME THING! [/QUOTE]

Its not that Muslims dont do it only - its actually FORBIDDEN - literally - in Islamic scritpures to take the life of a nonbeliever. A non-Muslim has a right to believe in WHATEVER he wants to. And a Muslim who takes the life of such a person clearly does not understand much about Islam.

I really want to continue this discussion with you guys but I must rest now, keep the stuff coming and ill look into it tomorrow.

 

[speculawyer]

First off, if you knew Islam well and learned about it, trust me when i say it will be PAINFULLY obvious which sect it is that should be followed - hint - theres one.

Holy shit . . . can't you see how completely illogical you are? If there is only one sect that people should follow THEN WHY DOESN"T EVERYONE FOLLOW IT?!?!?!

Lemme guess . . . the Jinns in the desert are stopping them.

its not a puzzle by the way, as i said earlier, the more you read into the OFFICIAL Islamic scriptures found in the Quran and the Hadiths, the more obvious things will become.

Holy crap! Do you know how these supposed 'OFFICIAL' versions of the Quran and the Hadiths were created? A bunch of random humans collecting them and picking them![/QUOTE]

THAT is how a Muslim decides. Sure, its a man-made decision - but the difference is some people base that decision on jack, while others base their decision on Islamic scriptures - to which there eventually would be ONE decision left

God's law is stated in the Quran and the Hadiths. Its that simple. It has nothing to do with man's law, it is however, man's decision obviously.

So . . . it is a man-made decision to select a particular religion, a man-made decision to pick a particular sect, a man-made interpretation of "OFFICIAL" books which are nothing but a man-made collection of words from a man.

And that is God's law. :lol

See, now wheres that logic you were talking about given this info?

:lol

These systems are all circular logic that only make sense if you immerse yourself in them and refuse to step outside and look at them logically.

 

[SoulPlaya]

yes it does. These verses and the first fourty verses of this sura were revealed on the biggest day of Hajj. And they have to do with what to do with treaties and tribes that break them. Verse five refers to killing people (obviously not women and children) who broke these treaties and aided the enemies. These people have four months to reconsider their actions, and there is no fighting in these four months.

And you agreed with me that if a country doesn't do harm to you BUT STILL DOESN'T HAVE A TREATY, then they are not protected from 9:5.

And lets not forget 9:29: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."