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Official Islamic Thread
- Thread starter AmMortal
- Start date
If you were paying attention to my debates you would know that I acknowledged that Surah 9 is the exception to the rule.Azih said:
9:6 simply states that a person should be escorted to safety so they can hear the Qu'ran. And what 4 months? You mean the sacred months? The 1st, 7th, 11th, 12th month of the Islamic calendar? It doesn't say you have to announce those 4 months. In the end, under the literal writing of the Qu'ran, if a group of people do no harm to you, but do not have a treaty with you, then you can harm them.
And Mohammed killed people after he won the battle and even took slaves of women and children (although, this was usually only because the other side would do the same to his people).
And please don't make it sound like you're not responding to me because "I'm just beyond hope". To me, it looks like AmMortal didn't respond to my last post because he had no answer. I mean, I still want him to explain to me this whole business about not being able to do surprise attacks, or being able to attack at night despite the fact that Mohammed and his followers committed many raids at night. Once again, I'm not hard headed. If he (or you) proves me wrong, I'll admit it and I'll apologize. We're just having a civil discussion here.
kobashi100
Banned
castle007 said:
Ramadhan Mubarak. Here in London UK started fasting yesterday as the moon was not sighted on saturday. I do not agree with we should follow Saudi Arabia.
People begin Ramadhan on different days and have Eid on different days which I find silly and it bugs me. Every year me and friends celebrate Eid on different days yet we live in the same city.. It would be nice to actually see us all start fasting on the same day. This should not be difficult. We should all fast whenever the moon is first sighted in any country, we dont have to personally see it ourselves or wait for our local mosque or saudi government etc.
Muslim also reported on the authority of Abdullah Ibnu Omar (R) that the Messenger of Allah (saw) made mention of Ramadhan and with a gesture of his hand said: "The month is thus and thus. (He then withdrew His thumb at the third time indicating 29). He then said: Fast when you see it, and break your fast when you see it, and if the weather is cloudy do calculate it (the months of Shaban and Shawwal) as thirty days."
Bukhari reported on the authority of Ibnu Omar (R) that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "The month consists of 29 nights, so do not fast till you have sighted it (i.e. the new moon), and if the weather were cloudy, then complete it as thirty days."
In the narration of Muslim, the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "The month of Ramadhan may consist of twenty-nine days. So do not fast until you have sighted it (the new moon) and do not break fast, until you have sighted it (the new moon of Shawwal), and if the sky is cloudy for you, then complete it (thirty days)."
Muslim also reported on the authority of Abdullah Ibnu Omar that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: The month of Ramadhan may consist of twenty-nine days; so when you see the new moon observe fast and when you see (the new moon again at the commencement of the month of Shawwal) then break it, and if the sky is cloudy for you, then calculate it (and complete thirty days)."
Ibn Umar (ra) reported, "During the time of the Prophet (saas), the companions went looking for the new crescent. So I told the Prophet (saw) that I saw it. So he fasted and told the companions to fast." [Abu Dawud & Hakim]
Again Ramadhan Mubarak to all muslims.
Earthstrike
Member
Himuro said:
If I'm not mistaken it requires the testimony of two women to equal that of one man. I'm not sure whether or not and muslims here will put this up for debate, but let it be clear that the passage discussed is enough that Sharia takes it to be true.
.Himuro said:
Himuro, you are awesome and I applaude you for this.
Firstly, most, if not all of the issues you have raised there, are bothering to me as a Muslim as well. You are absolutely correct in how you view the treatement of women in the Islamic society.
As far as solid evidence concerns, The Prophet and His companions used to let women pray in the mosque, provided that one thing, and onlyone thing be done. Women pray in the back, not front. These stories about women being forced into attics and back shacks, is bothering to us Muslims as well. have long since went through suffered under education ( lack of primary education and literacy) of both the social aspects and
Islamic of their lives. Most of the Islamic world can't even read the Qur'an let alone understand it.
This, I agree on 10000%. The tight skirts thing is bothering to me as well. It is because the parents do not have sufficient knowledge of their faith, and so think that only a Hijab is mandatory and that wearing tight clothes is worse then not wearing a hijab. Himuro, on this, I could not agree more with you to safe my life.
The only thing that Islam requires from you as a muslim engaging in a loving relationship. Is that before both of you are married to each other. Every time you want to date and have a chat to know each other, do it in a public space, restuarants, cafe's, etc. That is the only requirement.
Himuro, you are now on the same plaine of thought as most of us ( educated Muslims). You see what is wrong with the "Islamic" society and how it is far, very far from what Islam teaches us.
You now know why, I made this thread.
It wasn't just the Non-Muslims that made it an obligation for me to inform. It was for the Muslims equally, do you know how many PM's I've received saying " Man, I never knew those things, thanks for the thread ! " ?
Islam is in a position of whoever, does something good now, They willl be known in the Hereafter. " Holding on to the faith will be like holding on to hot coal"
In these times, The Ever-Living, has given us the perfect opportunity, to inform and receive ,nearly the rewards of Prophets.
I have supplicated for you that Allah might help you stand on your feet and give you that which is beyond on our comprehension as a Mercy from Him. May Allah Guide you and Love you, you are a good human being, and could be a better Muslim then I have ever been.
I feel inferior to you, you have gone through the hardest of test, it wasn't particularly easy for you to find the information that you have acquired. Nor was it in your reach, but Allah has chosen to show you, and you above all people. He has shown you the truth about Him, and how different from it Muslims are today.
It is now up to you.
All you have to do is choose.
May Allah give light to you in darkness.
Ameen.
TheHeretic
Banned
Himuro said:
Islam, like Christianity, is a patriarchal religion. Whether or not you think individual verses can be rationalized, it is quite clear the Koran was written in a different time with a different set of standards, and unfortunately that means male dominance.
castle007 said:
So for 40,000 years of modern man, people were all muslims, but mysteriously the religion didn't appear for 39,000 of those years?
TheHeretic
Banned
AmMortal said:
What does that have to do with my original question?
TheHeretic
Banned
AmMortal said:
So how do you explain the prevalence of polytheism? If these prophets were explaining things clearly why did it take tens of thousands of years for Islam to finally appear?
TheHeretic said:
Okay.
This is how it goes basically.
Prophet comes, gives people guidance. Prophet is a human being, dies, people make images or statues of him, to remember him, and then they themselves die. A couple of generations later, the new generations, look at these statues, but don't remember why they're here. But they do remember the slightest thing, it had to do with how to get close to God. So they start asking this statue to plead to go God to forgive their sins. Sins they deem themselves unworthy of asking God. A few generations later, it evolves, not only are they asking it for forgiveness, but they are worshipping it, bowing to it, calling it the holiest of holy. Not only this, but they make more graven images, because the population is too big to ask one statue, so they make an image of an animal that symbolizes the nurture of god , a cow, they also make a statue that symbolizes strength, the strenght of god, a lion. Then they start to worship these statues. That's how it went on and on. In the middle of this, a new prophet is called. and so on and so on.
It was there, from the very beginning, we believe that every religion on earth traces its roots to God, but in time deviated
TheHeretic
Banned
AmMortal said:
"This is how it goes"? The indigenous religions we have documented didn't have a concept of "God" or "Gods". They essentially revere the earth, and have a strong sense of spirituality.
You've still done nothing to justify the Gods of the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians. What a funny coincidence that Islam was invented on the curb of the rising popularity of monotheism, and funnier still is how so many characters from the old testament worked their way into the Koran.
TheHeretic
Banned
Ydahs said:
The one and only God Allah didn't exist for the vast majority of humanity. The closest comparison I can make is with the Sun Gods.
AmMortal said:
Theres nothing more obnoxious than someone who tries to debate through assumed higher knowledge. Ah man, seriously, isn't an argument. Its barely a sentence.
tehrik-e-insaaf
Member
Dunno where this thread has started or ended
Just wanted to say two words:
[RANT MODE]
"F**K ISNA"
They are building a pseudo-Catholic Church Pappacy for Muslims in the United States that puts the power of the Vatican to shame.
Their dumb Aligarh-educated board members talk "modernism" as long as it doesn't affect their political status or their ability to exercise classist control over all Muslims to their incredibly narrow view of thinking.
Their basic line is a mix of fear mongering and caste-based-rule - it goes something like this -
"9/11-happened, you are not safe from the White Americans and Canadians, come listen to us, we have MDs, maybe our ancestors in India knew something about Islam before we used our wealth to oppress you 100 years ago, either way we want to win political points and maybe get elected in the future because we are medical doctors, you uneducated backwards "cultural muslims" who run gas stations and get along with your White neighbours need to come learn from us how to do it the RIGHT way"
The OP's title "OFFICIAL Islamic Thread" (WTF?) stinks of the same ISNA-inspired brainwashing
I hope the organization is utterly burned and destroyed to the ground and their leaders are stripped of their clothing and beat in a public square for turning the vast majority of American Muslims into mindless sheep.
What the hell happened to democracy or elections? They talk about how Islam is diverse, how it encourages popular participation. When was the last time these guys had a free and fair vote that reflected their constituencies?
They pick and groom an elite few people that they want to direct the organization, begging for money around the world to ensure their agenda is followed. Popular participation is impossible. How many Pakistanis, Arabs, Indonesians or Bangladeshis are on the board despite representing a great deal of the number of Muslims in the United States? The board is dominated by converts and Indian doctors and they don't want anyone else involved.
Cultural tolerance? Diversity in thought? Riiiiiight. One of the idiots on the board, Syed Sayyid and his henchmen came to speak at a local University a few years ago when I was asked to attend by some of the Muslim students.
The guy bashed and bemoaned the "backwards Muslims" that spoke "Urdu" or "Farsi" or "Malaysian" instead of learning the "truth" of Arabic. He said all that literature is a waste of time.
This is ironic because he kept touting his knowledge of "Hindi" or "Urdu" or whatever by quoting some poet from Uttar Pradesh - Mirza Ghalib - whenever someone asked him a question about the followings and teachings of the exalted Prophet Muhammed RSA. Apparently this Ghalib guy's best saying was when he was quite drunk. Mr. Sayyid seemed to be pretty obsessed with him.
He continued his shenannigans about how all languages but Arabic and English were bad and should be abandoned to become better "Modern Muslims that can participate in the country post-9/11."
He also gave a long lecture on how the Muslims should be reading Shakespeare to their children because "They have to embrace the superior culture and become modern Muslims to assert one unified identity against the Whites."
WTF? This is contrary to AMERICAN VALUES AND IDEALS. When the hell did reading SHAKESPEARE over literature in another language or anything in any language become American? What the hell with the racist underpinnings and sectarianism?
In America you have the freedom to do what you want to do as long as you abide by the principle of liberty and the norms of the social contract. THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT AMERICA, Syed, you numbnut.
I don't know about what they make you do in India or Pakistan or wherever you are from Syed, but in AMERICA, we don't make people read Shakespeare or pretend they are effeminate liberals to live their daily lives.
LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. Nothing about Shakespeare or listening to the ramblings of a drunk Muslim poet.
ISNA claims all sorts of things, but ultimately their goal is consolidation of power, to prevent anyone from a different opinion expressing it, because they want to portray every Muslim as a sheep follower of their corrupt hierarchy.
If I count the number of idiots on that board and within their brain dead organization that have insulted Sufism (one of the shining BEACONS of Islam as far as I am concerned), or bemoaned cultural rituals hundreds of millions of Muslims around the world follow in peace and without problem, I'll be here all day.
I say this because I care for all Muslim people. I really do. Please wake up and pay attention to what is happening to the religion in this country in the fear mongering after 9/11 - not by George W Bush - but by the so-called "educated elites" in the faith, and please look at the kinds of people who are influencing the way Muslims think about being an American.
That is all.
[/RANT MODE]
Please continue with your discussions gentlemen.
Just wanted to say two words:
[RANT MODE]
"F**K ISNA"
They are building a pseudo-Catholic Church Pappacy for Muslims in the United States that puts the power of the Vatican to shame.
Their dumb Aligarh-educated board members talk "modernism" as long as it doesn't affect their political status or their ability to exercise classist control over all Muslims to their incredibly narrow view of thinking.
Their basic line is a mix of fear mongering and caste-based-rule - it goes something like this -
"9/11-happened, you are not safe from the White Americans and Canadians, come listen to us, we have MDs, maybe our ancestors in India knew something about Islam before we used our wealth to oppress you 100 years ago, either way we want to win political points and maybe get elected in the future because we are medical doctors, you uneducated backwards "cultural muslims" who run gas stations and get along with your White neighbours need to come learn from us how to do it the RIGHT way"
The OP's title "OFFICIAL Islamic Thread" (WTF?) stinks of the same ISNA-inspired brainwashing
I hope the organization is utterly burned and destroyed to the ground and their leaders are stripped of their clothing and beat in a public square for turning the vast majority of American Muslims into mindless sheep.
What the hell happened to democracy or elections? They talk about how Islam is diverse, how it encourages popular participation. When was the last time these guys had a free and fair vote that reflected their constituencies?
They pick and groom an elite few people that they want to direct the organization, begging for money around the world to ensure their agenda is followed. Popular participation is impossible. How many Pakistanis, Arabs, Indonesians or Bangladeshis are on the board despite representing a great deal of the number of Muslims in the United States? The board is dominated by converts and Indian doctors and they don't want anyone else involved.
Cultural tolerance? Diversity in thought? Riiiiiight. One of the idiots on the board, Syed Sayyid and his henchmen came to speak at a local University a few years ago when I was asked to attend by some of the Muslim students.
The guy bashed and bemoaned the "backwards Muslims" that spoke "Urdu" or "Farsi" or "Malaysian" instead of learning the "truth" of Arabic. He said all that literature is a waste of time.
This is ironic because he kept touting his knowledge of "Hindi" or "Urdu" or whatever by quoting some poet from Uttar Pradesh - Mirza Ghalib - whenever someone asked him a question about the followings and teachings of the exalted Prophet Muhammed RSA. Apparently this Ghalib guy's best saying was when he was quite drunk. Mr. Sayyid seemed to be pretty obsessed with him.
He continued his shenannigans about how all languages but Arabic and English were bad and should be abandoned to become better "Modern Muslims that can participate in the country post-9/11."
He also gave a long lecture on how the Muslims should be reading Shakespeare to their children because "They have to embrace the superior culture and become modern Muslims to assert one unified identity against the Whites."
WTF? This is contrary to AMERICAN VALUES AND IDEALS. When the hell did reading SHAKESPEARE over literature in another language or anything in any language become American? What the hell with the racist underpinnings and sectarianism?
In America you have the freedom to do what you want to do as long as you abide by the principle of liberty and the norms of the social contract. THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT AMERICA, Syed, you numbnut.
I don't know about what they make you do in India or Pakistan or wherever you are from Syed, but in AMERICA, we don't make people read Shakespeare or pretend they are effeminate liberals to live their daily lives.
LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. Nothing about Shakespeare or listening to the ramblings of a drunk Muslim poet.
ISNA claims all sorts of things, but ultimately their goal is consolidation of power, to prevent anyone from a different opinion expressing it, because they want to portray every Muslim as a sheep follower of their corrupt hierarchy.
If I count the number of idiots on that board and within their brain dead organization that have insulted Sufism (one of the shining BEACONS of Islam as far as I am concerned), or bemoaned cultural rituals hundreds of millions of Muslims around the world follow in peace and without problem, I'll be here all day.
I say this because I care for all Muslim people. I really do. Please wake up and pay attention to what is happening to the religion in this country in the fear mongering after 9/11 - not by George W Bush - but by the so-called "educated elites" in the faith, and please look at the kinds of people who are influencing the way Muslims think about being an American.
That is all.
[/RANT MODE]
Please continue with your discussions gentlemen.
TheHeretic
Banned
holy crap
ISNA occurs in Chicago, Chicago is predominantly made up of people from Hydrabad (India) and Karachi. So they have a lot of control over.
I've never been to their meetings and such. So I really don't know about the whole situation. Although I do know some crazy things occur like Fast Dating and other unislamic things during those meetings from all the talk on the Muslim Forums that I've read.
Anyway, Muslim guys and girls are separated during prayers in the Mosque.
I've never been to their meetings and such. So I really don't know about the whole situation. Although I do know some crazy things occur like Fast Dating and other unislamic things during those meetings from all the talk on the Muslim Forums that I've read.
Anyway, Muslim guys and girls are separated during prayers in the Mosque.
TheHeretic
Banned
Ydahs said:
Its incredibly arrogant to name newborns a specific religion, no different than affiliating a child with a political party. Religion is something you choose, it isn't something you are.
Adam is a part of the creationist myth, and you'd have a hard time reconciling modern science with an actual "first" human: thats not how evolution works.
Again, I'm not talking about "Muslim" in the sense we know it today. It's not being born into Islam, it's being born following the concept of monotheism and the message that all Prophets, from Adam to Jesus to Muhammad, sent to mankind.TheHeretic said:
A child's family chooses what religion their child follows, but when they are born, we consider them in Islam a child who believes in the one God.
Didn't I already mention this in my last post... Anyway, I don't know how else I can put it.
TheHeretic
Banned
Ydahs said:
I still don't understand how you explain the years of no God concept, to the years of polytheism. You mentioned it, but I don't understand it. How can a child believe in one God? A child doesn't believe in anything.
Hi.
A thread of this type in Gaf is really something. I read up to the 5th page all of the answers and it is truly cool that people are taking the time and patience to answer politely and not trolling too much. I will read more later.
Now here goes my part.
I do not believe in an all powerfull, all seeing being that created everything in the universe etc. I do believe that the persons who are responsible for the starting of the current main religions on earth existed and they were extremely inteligent, kind and way ahead of everyone else. They seemed to understand more than the common man and tried to help everyone around them. They started something and left a heavy legacy to us all.
I do think everyone is entitled to believe in what they want, i also think there is a lot to learn with religion and the teachings cointained in them. I can not, however, take word for word something that was written by the hand of man. We all know what man is capable of, don't we?
Anyway.
Its always all up in the air for interpretation.
Kudos to AmMortal for trying and achieving something here, an understanding and meeting of different persons with different beliefs.
Live and let live people... oh, and play games
A thread of this type in Gaf is really something. I read up to the 5th page all of the answers and it is truly cool that people are taking the time and patience to answer politely and not trolling too much. I will read more later.
Now here goes my part.
I do not believe in an all powerfull, all seeing being that created everything in the universe etc. I do believe that the persons who are responsible for the starting of the current main religions on earth existed and they were extremely inteligent, kind and way ahead of everyone else. They seemed to understand more than the common man and tried to help everyone around them. They started something and left a heavy legacy to us all.
I do think everyone is entitled to believe in what they want, i also think there is a lot to learn with religion and the teachings cointained in them. I can not, however, take word for word something that was written by the hand of man. We all know what man is capable of, don't we?
Anyway.
Its always all up in the air for interpretation.
Kudos to AmMortal for trying and achieving something here, an understanding and meeting of different persons with different beliefs.
Live and let live people... oh, and play games
TheHeretic said:
The answer is in your question.
You have to understand that, in Islam Children are symbols of innocence. And also, that in Islam the ultimate sin, is a distorted faith ( or none at all) in God.
As children, do not have the comprehension, to distinguish good from bad as much as an adult is capable of doing. They are innocent of this sin, as well as any other sin. Thus,children are considered Muslim, even if they are in a chruch, or in a temple praying.
Children are sinless, in every single thing they do.
F-Pina said:Hi.
A thread of this type in Gaf is really something. I read up to the 5th page all of the answers and it is truly cool that people are taking the time and patience to answer politely and not trolling too much. I will read more later.
Now here goes my part.
I do not believe in an all powerfull, all seeing being that created everything in the universe etc. I do believe that the persons who are responsible for the starting of the current main religions on earth existed and they were extremely inteligent, kind and way ahead of everyone else. They seemed to understand more than the common man and tried to help everyone around them. They started something and left a heavy legacy to us all.
I do think everyone is entitled to believe in what they want, i also think there is a lot to learn with religion and the teachings cointained in them. I can not, however, take word for word something that was written by the hand of man. We all know what man is capable of, don't we?
Anyway.
Its always all up in the air for interpretation.
Kudos to AmMortal for trying and achieving something here, an understanding and meeting of different persons with different beliefs.
Live and let live people... oh, and play games
Just doing our job
One thing. Muhammad could neither read nor write, so that whole bolded part doesn't apply to a certain extent
TheHeretic
Banned
AmMortal said:
Much clearer. So the non believers go to hell?
TheHeretic
Banned
AmMortal said:
Grim stuff. What happens to people who have never heard of islam, say, every person born before the 7th century, people in developing countries, etc.
tehrik-e-insaaf
Member
TheHeretic said:
First of all define polytheism? I define it to mean worship of multiple Gods with equal influence or power or divided responsibilities. If that's the case, for example, Hinduism is not really polytheistic per say. The "Gods" in Hinduism are all of one essence, Brahma which is based on a core cycle of Karma. That is why *some* Muslim rulers in India considered Hinduism to be Monotheistic and Hindus as protected peoples.
There is ultimately One Essence which is the same as One God. People have taken the purity of One God and invented sub-Gods and deities around it to explain phenomena or to have political or religious influence, which is what the original religion of One God (which is now manifested as Islam) suggested. Muslims, generally, will say that Hinduism (Like Christianity) is an example of the idea of One God corrupted.
Basically, people want to have contact or have physical feel of God (beacuse philosophically the concept is difficult to grasp). So they created "statues" that they could touch, that were ultimately an "inspiration" of the One God. Since they were allowed to do this, they created different "sub-Gods" from the one "Brahma" defined by the laws of Karma, but had different roles and responsibilities to help people understand natural phenomena and things.
I think Muslims will say much of the same is true with most "polytheistic" or "monotheistic" religions or even nature-based religions. For example, in Islam, Jesus is revered as a man and solely as a man. A great man mind you, but a man never the less. He taught people the same message, that blind rituals, customs, etc were bad, that people should worship One God. That is all. Simple. Easy. But eventually corrupted and misunderstood to mean he was the literal Son of God.
This is not very much unlike what Protestants believe or even Buddhists or Taoists or Jews or many other religions in the World. Even the ANCIENT GREEKS believed in the concept of one essence/God. It's called "chronos" or "destiny" that even Zeus is beholden to, controlled by, and ultimately pulled by. The ancient tribes of Syria that worshipped the moon, Zoroastrianism, even the worshippers of fire.
Hence, Islam returns to the roots by denying the existence of sub-Gods and deities, by banning the creation of idols and pictures of revered Prophets, by saying physical phenomena, the sun and moon, the earth, the stars, the galaxy, all exist naturally within the balance of the Universe, and keeping the relationship with that one essence (what we call God or Allah) and it alone (the highest essence, the Creator, Brahma, Chronos, what have you).
Islam in the beginning was very different from the institutionalized Islam you have today. People were brought under the fold of the belief not by converting, but REVERTING, stripping away the additions to their own various religions and realizing that the core essence of what they believed was infact Islam.
Literally, it means "submission" - "submission" to the will of the One Core Essence - One God. Not Hercules, not Jesus, not Mohammad, not Zoroaster, Not Siddharta, not Moses, not any human being or invented deity. The people above may have been Prophets, Messengers, or pious people. But they were not in any way the one core essence, the order of the universe, manifested in human form.
Muslims would point out that each tribe or religious group of people essentially worshipped one primary essence. Infact, to combat the creation of various sub-deities in various cultures, Muslim scientists used mathematics and science to explain phenomena that people had attributed different Gods and deities to.
Anyways, it's really a philosophical thing. The only way you can argue the point that we are discussing is if you say:
1. Atheism is correct (which is impossible to prove, since you can't disprove the existence of God)
2. Polytheism is correct (which is impossible to prove, since you can't prove Any God let alone Multiple Gods exist)
3. Agnosticism is incorrect (which is impossible, because Agnostics do not deny the existence of a force higher than them, but can not clearly show it's existence either)
What Muslims brought with them in addition to the idea of One God everpresent since the beginning of time, were their cultural habits, their philosophies, their ideology, their ideas, etc. These are what I think the majority of people focus their attention on.
So if you have a criticism, I think it should be with what the rituals and practices are, not what the core philosophical belief is, because it's really not all that different from the majority of religious beliefs. Infact, strip away the rituals, and it's basically agnosticism believeing there is a force but it can not be physically shown or proven other than within the intelligence of design and the balance of the world.