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[speculawyer]

Do you think that that is how it was with Mohammed - a simple little "I am a messenger of God and that is how it is." Come on.

That is what you think of the prophets from every other religion (except the profphets from 'the people of the book' from the nearby religions that Mohammend liberally stole from)

Gosh . . . isn't it weird that Mohammend just happened to mention prophets from nearby religions that he knew about but said little to nothing about distant religions?

OK enough, I gotta get back to work.

 

[Fady K]

I appreciate that explanation Fady, but it doesn't quite address my question. The example you used, the Taliiban, are self-professed Muslims. I can fully understand how they think they are right yet in the eyes of other Muslims they are wrong.


However,

You said everyone is practicing their own version of 'Islam'. Explain to me how someone who does not acknowledge himself as muslim, and has no apparent ties to Islam, is still practicing their own version of 'Islam'?

Oh I must explain this before I go off to bed - i'm sorry i meant something else, in fact, I used a terribly wrong word - everyone. I meant to say, many Muslims today are practicing their own version of Islam, including some of my close friends, and heck, some family members. And its unfortunate really, because it certainly doesn't lend to any sort of cohesion to the religion, but rather confusion about the religion. Nor does it help people who have a bad idea about Islam change their mind. And btw, when i said their own version of "Islam" i was being sarcastic about using the word Islam there - I should have been clearer about that, sorry. What I meant by their own version of Islam is actually their own religion with some basis in Islam - and the worst part - for them to say, and actually believe, that they are doing it in the name of Allah.

 

[castle007]

Holy shit . . . can't you see how completely illogical you are? If there is only one sect that people should follow THEN WHY DOESN"T EVERYONE FOLLOW IT?!?!?!

Lemme guess . . . the Jinns in the desert are stopping them.


Holy crap! Do you know how these supposed 'OFFICIAL' versions of the Quran and the Hadiths were created? A bunch of random humans collecting them and picking them!

random?? :| The people that collected hadiths are among the most respected muslims in history.

So . . . it is a man-made decision to select a particular religion, a man-made decision to pick a particular sect, a man-made interpretation of "OFFICIAL" books which are nothing but a man-made collection of words from a man.

And that is God's law. :lol

:lol

These systems are all circular logic that only make sense if you immerse yourself in them and refuse to step outside and look at them logically.

it is useless to argue with speculawyer. He hates all kinds of religions. :lol

 

[castle007]

And you agreed with me that if a country doesn't do harm to you BUT STILL DOESN'T HAVE A TREATY, then they are not protected from 9:5.

no, did you even read what I wrote??

Verse five refers to killing people (obviously not women and children) who broke these treaties and aided the enemies. These people have four months to reconsider their actions, and there is no fighting in these four months.

people who never had treaties with muslims in the first place and never harmed them are safe.

 

[Fady K]

Holy shit . . . can't you see how completely illogical you are? If there is only one sect that people should follow THEN WHY DOESN"T EVERYONE FOLLOW IT?!?!?!

Lemme guess . . . the Jinns in the desert are stopping them.

Why doesn't everyone follow it? Thats a very simple question and has a very simple answer - because most people cant be bothered to read much into the Quran and the Hadiths. Thats simply it, believe it or not.

Holy crap! Do you know how these supposed 'OFFICIAL' versions of the Quran and the Hadiths were created? A bunch of random humans collecting them and picking them!

Uh...it was anything but random humans collecting them and picking them. What are you talking about man?

So . . . it is a man-made decision to select a particular religion, a man-made decision to pick a particular sect, a man-made interpretation of "OFFICIAL" books which are nothing but a man-made collection of words from a man.

Buddy, the words are not the words of man. One of the biggest religions in the world didnt happen because of random humans picking up random stuff about that were man-made!

These systems are all circular logic that only make sense if you immerse yourself in them and refuse to step outside and look at them logically.

Oh im all about stepping outside and taking a look, show me any info and ill gladly look at it. No offense, but I think you yourself shoud step outside a bit too, and look at the basis of what im telling you rather than laughing it off as a popular man-made cult.

 

[SoulPlaya]

no, did you even read what I wrote??



people who never had treaties with muslims in the first place and never harmed them are safe.

This is 9:4 and 9:5.

9:4 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

It doesn't say only harm those who have broken treaties. It says don't harm those whom you have a treaty with (until the treaty ends that is).

 

[TheRagnCajun]

Oh I must explain this before I go off to bed - i'm sorry i meant something else, in fact, I used a terribly wrong word - everyone. I meant to say, many Muslims today are practicing their own version of Islam, including some of my close friends, and heck, some family members. And its unfortunate really, because it certainly doesn't lend to any sort of cohesion to the religion, but rather confusion about the religion. Nor does it help people who have a bad idea about Islam change their mind. And btw, when i said their own version of "Islam" i was being sarcastic about using the word Islam there - I should have been clearer about that, sorry. What I meant by their own version of Islam is actually their own religion with some basis in Islam - and the worst part - for them to say, and actually believe, that they are doing it in the name of Allah.

I understand now entirely. Thanks.

 

[castle007]

This is 9:4 and 9:5.

9:4 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

It doesn't say only harm those who have broken treaties. It says don't harm those whom you have a treaty with (until the treaty ends that is).

Islamic scholars agree with what I say. I have a Quran that explains every verse and relates it to the context of the Surat and explains when the Surah was revealed and what event was going on at that time. The explantions are written by a very well known sheikh and Islamic scholar in Egypt.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Islamic scholars agree with what I say. I have a Quran that explains every verse and relates it to the context of the Surat and explains when the Surah was revealed and what event was going on at that time. The explantions are written by a very well known sheikh and Islamic scholar in Egypt.

I have one of my own that I received many years ago, and it follows alongside the Qu'ran verse. No offense to you, but I'll just go by the Qu'ran which doesn't say only attack those who have broken the treaty, all it says is "don't attack those with whom you have a treaty (until the treaty ends).

 

[Hadji]

Gosh . . . isn't it weird that Mohammend just happened to mention prophets from nearby religions that he knew about but said little to nothing about distant religions?

Actually, there were Makkans that practiced Zoroastrianism at the time of Mohammed (pbuh). So, you would be wrong there. Nice try though.

I have one of my own that I received many years ago, and it follows alongside the Qu'ran verse. No offense to you, but I'll just go by the Qu'ran which doesn't say only attack those who have broken the treaty, all it says is "don't attack those with whom you have a treaty (until the treaty ends).

Not anyone can just pick up a Qur'an and call himself an expert in Qur'anic exegesis. By doing so you are neglecting the context of when and where the verse was revealed. Not only that, but you are also neglecting the Prophet's (pbuh) interpretation of the verses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostas...hafi_tradition

This is what constitutes apostasy from the Shafi tradition. A bit more than misinformation. Hell, just reviling Islam can get you death.

Actually, hating Islam does take you out of the fold of the religion but it will not get you killed. Since loathing the religion is a feeling that exists within you. It isn't like people are killed when they are suspected of hating Islam. Also, all of those things on the list can be forgiven if one repents. So, unless one really has a death wish, it is pretty hard to get put to death for apostasy... since you can always lie about you changing your mind, or if you are really adamant about seeing the religion go down and have too much pride to lie about your faith.

...

By the way, why are you still in this thread? I think you've made enough of a fool of yourself already by cursing your own god without realizing it.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Actually, there were Makkans that practiced Zoroastrianism at the time of Mohammed (pbuh). So, you would be wrong there. Nice try though.



Not anyone can just pick up a Qur'an and call himself an expert in Qur'anic exegesis. By doing so you are neglecting the context of when and where the verse was revealed. Not only that, but you are also neglecting the Prophet's (pbuh) interpretation of the verses.



Actually, hating Islam does take you out of the fold of the religion but it will not get you killed. Since loathing the religion is a feeling that exists within you. It isn't like people are killed when they are suspected of hating Islam. Also, all of those things on the list can be forgiven if one repents. So, unless one really has a death wish, it is pretty hard to get put to death for apostasy... since you can always lie about you changing your mind, or if you are really adamant about seeing the religion go down and have too much pride to lie about your faith.

...

By the way, why are you still in this thread? I think you've made enough of a fool of yourself already by cursing your own god without realizing it.

How? You may think I look like a fool but you look like a barbaric mongrel.

It's not just reviling Islam, it was in response to Fady K's statement that one must reject Islam (after first being a Muslim) and then spreading "misinformation". I was proving that according to a major school of Islam, you don't have to just spread "misinformation". It can be as simple as rejecting islam (after first being Muslim) and then reviling it. It's not my opinion. It's listed right there.

 

[Hadji]

How? You may think I look like a fool but you look like a barbaric mongrel.

Me being a barbaric mongrel is your opinion.

You blaspheming against your god by saying that a god that doesn't tolerate blasphemy against Him has OCD issues. This is punishable by death under OT law. You cursed your own god without realizing it. That is a fact.

There is no way I'm letting you get out of this one.

Learn about your religion before you criticize mine. Learn about your god before you criticize mine.

Get out of this thread.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Me being a barbaric mongrel is your opinion.

You blaspheming against your god by saying that a god that doesn't tolerate blasphemy against Him has OCD issues is punishable by death under OT law. You cursed your own god without realizing it. That is a fact.

Get out of this thread.

That wasn't me that said that.

 

[Hadji]

Oh damn! I'm sorry. xD

 

[SoulPlaya]

Oh damn! I'm sorry. xD

Who looks foolish now?

I'll leave thsi thread by just saying that there is obviously strong debate within Islam. But many of you are farr too sensitive and defensive. Are all Muslims bad? Of course not. Are there bad Muslims? Of course. Does Islam need reform? This is a question that Muslims shouldn't be afraid to ask and personally, I'd say yes.

And please, stop with the name calling. Too many times in this thread I've had people say I don't know about islam only for me to have to correct them on various issues.

 

[Hadji]

Who looks foolish now?

I do!! =(

 

[Vito]

This thread is getting more and more disturbing.... where do you guys live anyways? I hope it's far away in the middle east -_-

 

[Linkhero1]

This thread is getting more and more disturbing.... where do you guys live anyways? I hope it's far away in the middle east -_-

I live next door to you

 

[effzee]

This thread is getting more and more disturbing.... where do you guys live anyways? I hope it's far away in the middle east -_-

hahah we are muslim and we live next door!

sounds like a horror movie. but seriously i do live near you.

 

[speculawyer]

Uh...it was anything but random humans collecting them and picking them. What are you talking about man?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#History_of_Qur.E2.80.99an

Buddy, the words are not the words of man. One of the biggest religions in the world didnt happen because of random humans picking up random stuff about that were man-made!.

So if Islam is the true religion then what is Hinduism? . . . perhaps "random humans picking up random stuff about that were man-made" Oh . . . and it is one of the biggest religions in the world. Or maybe Hinduism is true! Thus the Quran is nothing but "random humans picking up random stuff about that were man-made"

Oh im all about stepping outside and taking a look, show me any info and ill gladly look at it. No offense, but I think you yourself shoud step outside a bit too, and look at the basis of what im telling you rather than laughing it off as a popular man-made cult.

I'm looking carefully and logically analyzing. And like most people of the world, I've decided that evidence most rationally points to it "a popular man-made cult" as you called Islam.

 

[Hadji]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#H...Qur.E2.80.99an

I can see how this would confuse anyone. The article doesn't include some key details like the fact that many of the companions knew the Qur'an by heart, so it wasn't an issue when it came to collecting it. Also, the "versions" that were burnt isn't really an accurate term, since they were more like books of commentary rather than versions of the Qur'an.

 

[Instigator]

This might be the best thread to ask this. And I'd rather have the Muslims answer the big question first before the skeptics step in. So now that the warning is out of the way, get ready for it, here it goes.... now:

What do you think the West can gain from Islam? To be more precise, what can it gain from the religion than it doesn't already have or know? And I am not talking about abstract things like the 'truth', 'impure animals' or the 'zeal of jihad', but concrete, practical things.

 

[speculawyer]

(Everyone is born a Muslim) Can someone please explain this to me? Muslim in principle, practice, heritage? I need help on this one.

There is nothing to explain . . . it is just bullshit. It only makes sense if you decided to live in the world Islamlogic and then it is just one of those arbitrary axioms that they have decided is 'true'.

 

[speculawyer]

This might be the best thread to ask this. And I'd rather have the Muslims answer the big question first before the skeptics step in.

I'm trying so hard to bite my tongue. :lol

 

[Instigator]

Ok, I'm a reasonable man, once one Muslim has his say, you can stop biting your tongue and jump right in.

 

[The Internet]

I guess I could post these here instead of the pictures thread but this is from June when my soon to be wife took shahada and we did that nikka thing in one swoop. She had been interested in Islam for a couple of years at least. Plus she wanted to be with me for the rest of her life, and who could blame her.

This is traditional Pakistani clothing that Chantel is wearing (she chose Haala as her muslim name)

Add another moslem to the list.

 

[Fady K]

I guess I could post these here instead of the pictures thread but this is from June when my soon to be wife took shahada and we did that nikka thing in one swoop. She had been interested in Islam for a couple of years at least. Plus she wanted to be with me for the rest of her life, and who could blame her.

This is traditional Pakistani clothing that Chantel is wearing (she chose Haala as her muslim name)

Add another moslem to the list.

Congrats buddy =)

 

[speculawyer]

I guess I could post these here instead of the pictures thread but this is from June when my soon to be wife took shahada and we did that nikka thing in one swoop. She had been interested in Islam for a couple of years at least. Plus she wanted to be with me for the rest of her life, and who could blame her.

This is traditional Pakistani clothing that Chantel is wearing (she chose Haala as her muslim name)
Add another moslem to the list.

Nice lookin' lady.

You'll have some nice lookin' kids.

Spoiler

And then one of you will get bored, the relationship will weaken, you'll get a divorce, rinse, repeat.

 

[joey_z]

Nice lookin' lady.

You'll have some nice lookin' kids.

Spoiler

And then one of you will get bored, the relationship will weaken, you'll get a divorce, rinse, repeat.

At least the kids will be good looking. There's no way he hasn't banged her though. I say he's an undercover muslim.

 

[speculawyer]

At least the kids will be good looking. There's no way he hasn't banged her though. I say he's an undercover muslim.

Well . . . he didn't say if he has or has not. None of our business.

 

[The Internet]

The baby is due on November 17th.

 

[Karakand]

The baby is due on November 17th.

ما شاء الله

 

[EviLore]

You blaspheming against your god by saying that a god that doesn't tolerate blasphemy against Him has OCD issues. This is punishable by death under OT law. You cursed your own god without realizing it. That is a fact.

I'm sure there are plenty of forums that will welcome another abhorrent fundamentalist zealot, so do some googling on your way out.

 

[Linkhero1]

I'm sure there are plenty of forums that will welcome another abhorrent fundamentalist zealot, so do some googling on your way out.

how long is the ban?

Also congratz The Internet

 

[AmMortal]

No, it's not. First of all, I already told you that 9:4 has nothing to do with 9:5 but let's say you're right. It says treaty AND if they are not attacking you. If there is no treaty, then kill them all unless they become Muslims.

You see, there is nothing wrong with defending the people of your community, since when has pacification become a standard for religion? There is no such things as kill them all unless they're muslims, the fighting here includes the christians and jews who were also part of the community of Medina, Allah has ordered everyone to protect their families against the pagan arabs that were coming to attack. If your interpretation is right, then how come the jews and christians here are on the side of the muslims fighting with them? These are historical facts, there is no such thing as "convert" or be killed in Islam. There is only defending the people who believe in Allah.

This verse explains everything clearly.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given to fight, because they are oppressed. Verily, God is Capable of aiding them. They are those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of what is just, for no other reason than that they say, "Our Lord is God." Had God not restrained one set of people by means of another, [highlight ]monasteries, churches, synagogues, temples and mosques wherein God's name if oft-mentioned would have been destroyed. God will certainly aid those who aid His cause. (Qur'an, Chapter 22:39-40). Notice the mention of all houses of worship.


If as a muslim, I see people vandalizing a church, I HAVE TO STOP THEM. Then how do I hate christians and Jews?

In islam, even during war times, muslims are not allowed to attack the enemy during the night. They must also give clear details of when and where combat will commence.

Your argument makes no sense man. Don't listen to the bull that people pass around.

 

[SoulPlaya]

You see, there is nothing wrong with defending the people of your community, since when has pacification become a standard for religion? There is no such things as kill them all unless they're muslims, the fighting here includes the christians and jews who were also part of the community of Medina, Allah has ordered everyone to protect their families against the pagan arabs that were coming to attack. If your interpretation is right, then how come the jews and christians here are on the side of the muslims fighting with them? These are historical facts, there is no such thing as "convert" or be killed in Islam. There is only defending the people who believe in Allah.

This verse explains everything clearly.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given to fight, because they are oppressed. Verily, God is Capable of aiding them. They are those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of what is just, for no other reason than that they say, "Our Lord is God." Had God not restrained one set of people by means of another, [highlight ]monasteries, churches, synagogues, temples and mosques wherein God's name if oft-mentioned would have been destroyed. God will certainly aid those who aid His cause. (Qur'an, Chapter 22:39-40). Notice the mention of all houses of worship.


If as a muslim, I see people vandalizing a church, I HAVE TO STOP THEM. Then how do I hate christians and Jews?

In islam, even during war times, muslims are not allowed to attack the enemy during the night. They must also give clear details of when and where combat will commence.

Your argument makes no sense man. Don't listen to the bull that people pass around.

Really? Even though Mohammed himself committed numerous raid? And about that quote? What if that Church or synagogue was torn down and replaced with a mosque? Any problem with that? You may think I'm nitpicking but these are what many I've met believe. And I'm not going by tales or myths, I'm just going by what's actually in the Qu'ran and various Hadiths.

Then you've got stuff like this: Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

Bukhari: "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"
Muslim: "The Messenger said: 'Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights."
Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."
Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."

 

[AmMortal]

Really? Even though Mohammed himself committed numerous raid? And about that quote? What if that Church or synagogue was torn down and replaced with a mosque? Any problem with that? You may think I'm nitpicking but these are what many I've met believe. And I'm not going by tales or myths, I'm just going by what's actually in the Qu'ran and various Hadiths.

Then you've got stuff like this: Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

Bukhari: "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"
Muslim: "The Messenger said: 'Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights."
Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."
Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."

THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST BOGUS POST I HAVE READ IN THIS THREAD, WHO HAS TOLD YOU THESE LIES BROTHER.

Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims])and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

WHAT THE HELL IS THIS, THIS IS NOT THE QUR'AN

THE REAL VERSE GOES LIKE THIS:

And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

THIS IS NOT FROM THE QUR'AN NOR IS IT FROM THE AHADITH

Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

THIS IS NOT THE VERSE.

The verse orders everyone, in the community whether muslim or jewish/christian to CONTRIBUTE to the community, in the form of Muslims this would be ZAKAT, in the form of The jews and christians this would be Jizah, WHICH IS LESS THEN THE ZAKAT. IT IS EXACTLY LIKE TAX. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US IS EXPECTED TO PAY IT. The Qur'an here taks a better approach, IT ALLOWS THIS " TAX" TO BE LESS FOR NON-MUSLIMS.



Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."
Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.

This verse refers to the PAGAN arabs ( which you should hate as much as we and the early christians of Medina did ) killed, tortured and MUTILATED dead bodies. From everyone from Medina, WHETHER JEW CHRISTIAN OR MUSLIM.

You don't have to lie to win an argument :/

 

[SoulPlaya]

THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST BOGUS POST I HAVE READ IN THIS THREAD, WHO HAS TOLD YOU THESE LIES BROTHER.


WHAT THE HELL IS THIS, THIS IS NOT THE QUR'AN

THE REAL VERSE GOES LIKE THIS:

And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.




THIS IS NOT FROM THE QUR'AN NOR IS IT FROM THE AHADITH



THIS IS NOT THE VERSE.

The verse orders everyone, in the community whether muslim or jewish/christian to CONTRIBUTE to the community, in the form of Muslims this would be ZAKAT, in the form of The jews and christians this would be Jizah, WHICH IS LESS THEN THE ZAKAT. IT IS EXACTLY LIKE TAX. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US IS EXPECTED TO PAY IT. The Qur'an here taks a better approach, IT ALLOWS THIS " TAX" TO BE LESS FOR NON-MUSLIMS.



Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."
Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.

This verse refers to the PAGAN arabs ( which you should hate as much as we and the early christians of Medina did ) killed, tortured and MUTILATED dead bodies. From everyone from Medina, WHETHER JEW CHRISTIAN OR MUSLIM.

You don't have to lie to win an argument :/

If what I wrote was Bs then I'm sorry. I was in class and I couldn't get my own Qu'ran from home, I had to use one from online. Although, I'll just address the first verse. The one you posted and the one I posted are pretty similar, the one I posted is just simpler.

"And all submit to the religion of Allah alone" and "there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere".

 

[castle007]

Can someone please explain this to me? Muslim in principle, practice, heritage? I need help on this one.

it means that everyone is born pure and muslim and depending on your environment and how you are raised, you will either drift from it or stick with it.

The concept of original sin doesn't exist in islam.

 

[castle007]

If what I wrote was Bs then I'm sorry. I was in class and I couldn't get my own Qu'ran from home, I had to use one from online. Although, I'll just address the first verse. The one you posted and the one I posted are pretty similar, the one I posted is just simpler.

"And all submit to the religion of Allah alone" and "there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere".

you still don't understand that first verse. Why would the muslims stop fighting, if the enemy is still acting as an oppressor and they are still fighting muslims?? God gives us the right to defend ourselves and enforce Islamic rule (because in our view and God's view, this law will prevent oppressors from showing up if Islam is applied correctly) in our enemies' territories.

But if the enemy decides to cease and stop the oppression then they can continue their way of living and God will judge them in the end.

 

[SoulPlaya]

THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST BOGUS POST I HAVE READ IN THIS THREAD, WHO HAS TOLD YOU THESE LIES BROTHER.


WHAT THE HELL IS THIS, THIS IS NOT THE QUR'AN

THE REAL VERSE GOES LIKE THIS:

And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.




THIS IS NOT FROM THE QUR'AN NOR IS IT FROM THE AHADITH




THIS IS NOT THE VERSE.

The verse orders everyone, in the community whether muslim or jewish/christian to CONTRIBUTE to the community, in the form of Muslims this would be ZAKAT, in the form of The jews and christians this would be Jizah, WHICH IS LESS THEN THE ZAKAT. IT IS EXACTLY LIKE TAX. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US IS EXPECTED TO PAY IT. The Qur'an here taks a better approach, IT ALLOWS THIS " TAX" TO BE LESS FOR NON-MUSLIMS.



Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."
Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.

This verse refers to the PAGAN arabs ( which you should hate as much as we and the early christians of Medina did ) killed, tortured and MUTILATED dead bodies. From everyone from Medina, WHETHER JEW CHRISTIAN OR MUSLIM.

You don't have to lie to win an argument :/

Do you have any sources about Mohammed only attacking Pagan arabs because they were doing that stuff?

But this bring up another issue with the Qu'ran. Muslims around the world are taught to do what the Qu'ran says, and if it says fight the unbelievers, then that's what many believe. It doesn't matter the context, the 9tth surah was one of the last surah (probably the last) revealed by Mohammed. Many Muslims believe that it overwrites many of the previous peaceful verses he stated. Lol, maybe Mohammed should have been clearer??? Didn't he think his religion would last longer than a couple of years? Didn't he ever think that these evil pagan arabs would dissapear? Or maybe he thought another nonbelieving group would eventually replace them and the same should be done to him, huh?

And I didn't lie.

9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "

Makes no mention of "contributing to the community", just says fight them until they feel subdued.

BTW you still haven't explained the whole "Muslims must stipulate when and where they will fight" despite Mohammed, himself, doing many raids.

 

[AmMortal]

Every single thing I have addressed in my previous post, was an HISTORICAL FACT(i.e. We have writings, like the letters of Muhammad (saw) to the kings of byzantine, abbysinia or persia). I see that you're a troll,that won't cease. It is evident that you want to demonize a man, that you know nothing about.

Peace be with you.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Every single thing I have addressed in my previous post, was an HISTORICAL FACT(i.e. We have writings, like the letters of Muhammad (saw) to the kings of byzantine, abbysinia or persia). I see that you're a troll,that won't cease. It is evident that you want to demonize a man, that you know nothing about.

Peace be with you.

Troll? I left this thread, you replied back to me, days later. Fuck did I even say? I just asked for a source on what the pagan arabs did, I'm genuinley interested. I know nothing about Mohammed? You still haven't addressed the whole Mohammed doing raids thing.

I'm just amazed at how the Qu'ran can have these kinds of verses, and the only real responses I get are "but he only meant pagan arabs"? How do you know? Mohammed was a smart man. I'm sure he knew that Muslims, like any other religious group, would base their actions upon their holy book. If he only meant attack pagan arabs, then why didn't he say so? Or why didn't anyone else clarify? And what about this?

59:2 It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book [Jews] from their homes at the first gathering (of the forces). Little did ye think that they would get out: And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah! But the (Wrath of) Allah came to them from quarters from which they little expected (it), and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers, take warning, then, O ye with eyes (to see)!

59:3 And had it not been that Allah had decreed banishment for them, He would certainly have punished them in this world: And in the Hereafter they shall (certainly) have the Punishment of the Fire.

59:4 That is because they resisted Allah and His Apostle: and if any one resists Allah, verily Allah is severe in Punishment.


Oh, I even got one more for you. You said Muslims can't attack at night and can't do surprise attacks, right?

Surah 7:4 "How many a township have we destroyed! As a raid by night, or while, they slept at noon. Our terror came unto them."

Come one, man. Who knows? Maybe you're right? It still doesn't change the fact that the Qu'ran needs major work or at least heavy clarification. But I'm not the one you should be trying to convince, it's other Muslims who sadly seem to have it mixed up. And I'm serious on that notion. If my beliefs about Islam are wrong, I'll admit it. But that still doesn't mean that other Muslims shouldn't be educated, as well. We just have to find some people brave enough to do it.

 

[Ydahs]

SoulPlaya, may I ask for a link on these verses. Not all translations are accurate and only a few are widely accepted. Some arabic words used the Quran can't even be translated directly into english, and some of the translations I've read are completely off.

With any book, the meaning isn't always the same once it's been translated. I'm not sure you can read arabic, but my Islamic Studies teachers at school always recommended using the english translation as a guide rather than the actual Quran, unless it was from a respected translator. They recommended going back to the arabic scripture (though I can't read )

There are some good english Qurans out there that have the verse and a little footnote, explaining the circumstances it was revealed. These footnotes are backed up by reliable sources and aren't just made up on the spot.

I'm sure AmMortal knows some trustful and accurate translations which can be found online, but if you're really interested, and you seem you are, you might be able to buy one of these Qurans and just give it a read. It's interesting, since it has many interesting stories on different Prophets. It also has many interesting scientific facts (though those might be hadiths).

 

[SoulPlaya]

SoulPlaya, may I ask for a link on these verses. Not all translations are accurate and only a few are widely accepted. Some arabic words used the Quran can't even be translated directly into english, and some of the translations I've read are completely off.

With any book, the meaning isn't always the same once it's been translated. I'm not sure you can read arabic, but my Islamic Studies teachers at school always recommended using the english translation as a guide rather than the actual Quran, unless it was from a respected translator. They recommended going back to the arabic scripture (though I can't read )

There are some good english Qurans out there that have the verse and a little footnote, explaining the circumstances it was revealed. These footnotes are backed up by reliable sources and aren't just made up on the spot.

I'm sure AmMortal knows some trustful and accurate translations which can be found online, but if you're really interested, and you seem you are, you might be able to buy one of these Qurans and just give it a read. It's interesting, since it has many interesting stories on different Prophets. It also has many interesting scientific facts (though those might be hadiths).

This is the website I get some from. http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009.asp

I have two Qu'rans in my house. One of which is the official UN version, which is also written in arabic. I can't read arabic, but my father can, and I always check to make sure the verses are compatible in both english and arabic.

 

[Azih]

Honestly SoulPlaya I stopped reponding to you when you claimed that a verse right next to another verse has no relation to it. That's just wrong.

Edit: www.quranbrowser.com is pretty much the most useful method of looking up translations. Use the old interface and choose all ten for easy comparisions. 9:5 is in no way divorced from 9:1-9:4. 9:1 to 9:4 lays out the pre conditions for the harsh reprisals of 9:5 (which includes mind you an announched four month notice to everybody concerned). Neither is it divorced from 9:6 in which anybody who surrenders is supposed to be escorted to safety whether they convert or not.

 

[Nemo]

So Ramadan's starting on the 1st right?

 

[castle007]

So Ramadan's starting on the 1st right?

yeah, tomorrow

 

[effzee]

for everyone?

my family follows ISNA and they are going based on calculations. i know ICNA says to follow your local mosque.

 

[Nemo]

Thanks!