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[AmMortal]

Grim stuff. What happens to people who have never heard of islam, say, every person born before the 7th century, people in developing countries, etc.

I'll tell you.

People who have never heard of it, will on the day of Judgement receive justice. In their defense.

Allah will gather all of them.

Allah will appoint to them a prophet in front of their eyes.

and say " Do whatever My prophet commands you to do"

To their shock, The prophet will say " Direct yourselves to hell, that is the command of Allah"

The people that do this with no hesitation, will receive salvation, and whoever rejects will lose salvation.

This is pretty strong stuff to digest.However, take into account the other people, who had faith in God on earth, without seeing or hearing Him. Some of which, like the muslims from now, haven't had the privileges of seeing their Prophet and witnessing Miracles. Prayed everysingle day of their lives, fought for what was right, fasted and had faith in God despite whatevery one else on earth said. They have proved themselves.

Now, it is their time. They will experience the weight of all of the trials and tribulations on earth in one go.

Because Allah does not punish without admonition.

 

[TheHeretic]

The concept of polytheism isn't some insane concept. If you are going to make the stretch into thinking a God exists, why not stretch the think multiple Gods exist? Why is there only one of its kind? Is this reminiscent of any species we are aware of?

Polytheism also removes the problem of evil. Wars and disasters are simply Gods fighting. Monotheism is more ridiculous because it attempts to reconcile an imperfect world with a perfect God, claiming life is an arbitrary test and judgment from the creator. Would you make a species just to judge it and send billions of them to hell?

So no, I don't agree with your notion that monotheism is somehow more rational. Its all mythology and its all nonsense, I don't think the Greeks were stupid because they believed in dozens of Gods.

 

[AmMortal]

The concept of polytheism isn't some insane concept. If you are going to make the stretch into thinking a God exists, why not stretch the think multiple Gods exist? Why is there only one of its kind? Is this reminiscent of any species we are aware of?

Polytheism also removes the problem of evil. Wars and disasters are simply Gods fighting. Monotheism is more ridiculous because it attempts to reconcile an imperfect world with a perfect God, claiming life is an arbitrary test and judgment from the creator. Would you make a species just to judge it and send billions of them to hell?

So no, I don't agree with your notion that monotheism is somehow more rational. Its all mythology and its all nonsense, I don't think the Greeks were stupid because they believed in dozens of Gods.

Because a god cannot be God if it has equals or similarities with anything or anyone.
That is what we believe.
Also, if there are more gods, which one came first? Because a god cannot be a God, if something preceded it. Even if all of them were there at the same time, it would suggest they have something in common, and remember, a god cannot be God, if it has similarities with anyone or anything. What if these gods had a disagreement?

We ourselves are not made of one thing, we are composed of different elements. A god cannot be God, if it also is composed of different things ( triangular for instance).

 

[TheHeretic]

Because a god cannot be God if it has equals or similarities with anything or anyone.
That is what we believe.
Also, if there are more gods, which one came first? Because a god cannot be a God, if something preceded it. Even if all of them were there at the same time, it would suggest they have something in common, and remember, a god cannot be God, if it has similarities with anyone or anything. What if these gods had a disagreement?

Thats your definition of God. You can't define something and then claim its an impossibility because it defies your own definition.

And which one came first? When did your God "come to be"?

 

[tehrik-e-insaaf]

Grim stuff. What happens to people who have never heard of islam, say, every person born before the 7th century, people in developing countries, etc.

For those people, anyone who did Good Works and submits to the One God/Once Essence and lived a moral life where basically, they did their best to avoid committing the most major sin (inventing deities or other Gods, or creating deities for exploitation and to gain religious, political, social, or econoic power) has a chance for eternal paradise.

 

[Ydahs]

The concept of polytheism isn't some insane concept. If you are going to make the stretch into thinking a God exists, why not stretch the think multiple Gods exist? Why is there only one of its kind? Is this reminiscent of any species we are aware of?

Polytheism also removes the problem of evil. Wars and disasters are simply Gods fighting. Monotheism is more ridiculous because it attempts to reconcile an imperfect world with a perfect God, claiming life is an arbitrary test and judgment from the creator. Would you make a species just to judge it and send billions of them to hell?

So no, I don't agree with your notion that monotheism is somehow more rational. Its all mythology and its all nonsense, I don't think the Greeks were stupid because they believed in dozens of Gods.

Again, I'm not good at explaining things, but here goes: If there are multiple goals, who's the more powerful? We believe that God is the all powerful, yet how can there be more than one of the all powerful? What if one disagrees with the other? And if there are multiple Gods, wouldn't the most Powerful God be the true God.


... going over that, I don't think I did too good of a job explaining, but you might get the idea.

EDIT: AmMortal explained it better

And which one came first? When did your God "come to be"?

This is really hard to explain. God wasn't created as He isn't bound by his own laws of creation. He didn't "come to be" as He was always there.

EDIT: Again AmMortal with the explanations. I'll just sit back while you do all the explaining

 

[AmMortal]

Thats your definition of God. You can't define something and then claim its an impossibility because it defies your own definition.

And which one came first? When did your God "come to be"?

Simple.

Everything and anything in our universe is finite, we believe that God is Infinite. So God is the opposite of everything in the universe and the universe itself.

Suggesting that he had a "time" to come to be ( hence a beginning), would be illogical, because then God would be finite, thus eleminating the very thing that makes Him God.

Suffice to say, no beginning no end.

 

[tehrik-e-insaaf]

The concept of polytheism isn't some insane concept. If you are going to make the stretch into thinking a God exists, why not stretch the think multiple Gods exist? Why is there only one of its kind? Is this reminiscent of any species we are aware of?

Polytheism also removes the problem of evil. Wars and disasters are simply Gods fighting. Monotheism is more ridiculous because it attempts to reconcile an imperfect world with a perfect God, claiming life is an arbitrary test and judgment from the creator. Would you make a species just to judge it and send billions of them to hell?

So no, I don't agree with your notion that monotheism is somehow more rational. Its all mythology and its all nonsense, I don't think the Greeks were stupid because they believed in dozens of Gods.

Dude you didn't read a word I said. I actually never criticized any religion at all. I never said the word "stupid" - actually I said in my view Greeks believed in the core essence of Chronos, which for me is the same as believing in Allah or Brahma (in Hinduism) or whatever.

I am not arguing monotheism vs polytheism, I simply tried to explain it to you the way Muslim people look at it.

Also I think Muslim people would argue with each other on the kind of role that God plays in peoples' lives. War is not a bad thing in Islam. It's disliked and people should try to avoid it, but it's not certainly inherently evil. Some people see death and destruction in their lives as a result of their actions in this world. They believe in a karma-esque view of Islam. Others see death and destruction as a result of God's tests, they see it as a test of their faith.

The point isn't what's right or wrong, you asked a question about why Muslim people view something the way they do. I answered it. If you want to argue whether polytheism is correct or monotheism is correct, first prove to me that you can prove the existence of God/Gods in the first place?

Oh wait you can't scientifically prove that!

My bet is that you are an atheist, if that's the case, prove to me that God doesn't exist?

Can't do that either then, so why are you arguing with me? I clearly explained it to you what the facts for, don't argue with me for the sake of arguing, it's pretty dumb.

 

[TheHeretic]

Dude you didn't read a word I said. I actually never criticized any religion at all. I never said the word "stupid" - actually I said in my view Greeks believed in the core essence of Chronos, which for me is the same as believing in Allah or Brahma or whatever.

I am not arguing monotheism vs polytheism, I simply tried to explain it to you the way Muslim people look at it.

Also I think Muslim people would argue with each other on the kind of role that God plays in peoples' lives. War is not a bad thing in Islam. It's disliked and people should try to avoid it, but it's not certainly inherently evil. Some people see death and destruction in their lives as a result of their actions in this world. They believe in a karma-esque view of Islam. Others see death and destruction as a result of God's tests, they see it as a test of their faith.

The point isn't what's right or wrong, you asked a question about why Muslim people view something the way they do. I answered it. If you want to argue whether polytheism is correct or monotheism is correct, first prove to me that you can prove the existence of God in the first place?

I read your entire post, which in itself made the claim that monotheism was somehow returning to spiritualities roots. I'm not arguing whether polytheism or monotheism is correct, they are both wrong, but neither of them is less wrong.

My bet is that you are an atheist, if that's the case, prove to me that God doesn't exist?

Prove unicorns don't exist! Can't? Well better start believing in them too!

 

[tehrik-e-insaaf]

I read your entire post, which in itself made the claim that monotheism was somehow returning to spiritualities roots. I'm not arguing whether polytheism or monotheism is correct, they are both wrong, but neither of them is less wrong.



Prove unicorns don't exist! Can't? Well better start believing in them too!

Gee your immaturity is incredible.

I never said monotheism is spirituality's roots. Why are you associating me with a propagator? I only explained to you the way a Muslim sees it. What the hell is wrong with you?

As for your second comment. I asked you to prove God or Gods exist? Can you do that? No. You CANNOT prove scientifically that God exists. Can you prove that God doesn't exist, no you can't. So why are we having an inane debate on the merits of monotheism vs. polytheism! You are arguing for the sake of arguing. There is no merit in you attacking me.


As a scientist, I would say unicorns might exist since scientifically I can never prove they don't, however, given the physical characteristics people claim they have, everything I know about science would tell me their existence is highly improbable, but I can't say that with absolutely certainty because the scientific method can only offer opinions on observable phenomena. Something which is not observable is an agnostic issue for a scientist.

 

[tehrik-e-insaaf]

I read your entire post, which in itself made the claim that monotheism was somehow returning to spiritualities roots. I'm not arguing whether polytheism or monotheism is correct, they are both wrong, but neither of them is less wrong.



Prove unicorns don't exist! Can't? Well better start believing in them too!

Look chief, if you want to prove that atheism is correct. That's fine. Open a new thread and start arguing that atheism is the answer. I really have no problem with it.

But stop engaging in this useless dialogue with me ok? I frankly don't care.

I just tried to answer a question you asked to the best of my ability. I don't know how most Muslims think, but I think the majority of them think the way that I explained to you.

K THX BYE

 

[TheHeretic]

Gee your immaturity is incredible.

I never said monotheism is spirituality's roots. Why are you associating me with a propagator? I only explained to you the way a Muslim sees it. What the hell is wrong with you?

As for your second comment. I asked you to prove God or Gods exist? Can you do that? No. You CANNOT prove scientifically that God exists. Can you prove that God doesn't exist, no you can't. So why are we having an inane debate on the merits of monotheism vs. polytheism! You are arguing for the sake of arguing. There is no merit in you attacking me.

:lol

Easy, bucko, lets not burst any ventricles. If you are going to explain something from the perspective of a muslim i'm entitled to respond to that. I'm not attacking you, you clown.

Theres a difference between ad hominem and debating a point, funnily enough people are pretty inept at identifying that line.

Your final comment is completely ridiculous. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, we are talking about the roots and merits of monotheism. If you aren't interested in the discussion, don't enter it.

 

[Ydahs]

:lol

Easy, bucko, lets not burst any ventricles. If you are going to explain something from the perspective of a muslim i'm entitled to respond to that. I'm not attacking you, you clown.

Theres a difference between ad hominem and debating a point, funnily enough people are pretty inept at identifying that line.

Your final comment is completely ridiculous. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, we are talking about the roots and merits of monotheism.

I wouldn't mind a new thread about this discussion as we'll probably get better arguments with Christians and Jews in the picture. Not many people are viewing this thread to build up the discussion and it's also derailing the thread.

 

[AmMortal]

yeah, make one. Should be interesting.

 

[tehrik-e-insaaf]

:lol

Easy, bucko, lets not burst any ventricles. If you are going to explain something from the perspective of a muslim i'm entitled to respond to that. I'm not attacking you, you clown.

Theres a difference between ad hominem and debating a point, funnily enough people are pretty inept at identifying that line.

Your final comment is completely ridiculous. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, we are talking about the roots and merits of monotheism. If you aren't interested in the discussion, don't enter it.

No we aren't *arguing* any POINT here (I know your pseudo-intellectual approach is to turn it into a comparison of ad hominem attacks and argumentation - making me look like I am somehow not understanding the underlying the nature of your contribution here, when infact I clearly understand the mind game you are playing). Perhaps you should read the difference between the two, because your immaturity is apparent in your ad hominem attacks.

We were never debating monotheism, you were saying you didn't understand the idea of ONE GOD in the Islamic context. You said it didn't historically connect with you. You never said it was a good or bad thing. You brought that little spin up later in the thread to try and look intelligent.

It's very simple your little game here:

You asked a question about what Muslims believe. I answered the question explaining how even so-called polytheist religions are considered monotheist by Muslims, and thus explaining to you very clearly and succintly, how the historical connection can be made.

You don't like what you hear, so now you are turning it into a game of monotheism vs. polytheism vs atheism and claiming that you are having an intellectual debate. Once someone explains to you why monotheism makes sense from an intellectual perspective or at LEAST say something that sounds slightly rational, you will find something else they said, maybe like the way prayer ritual is done, and then start saying that it makes no sense why this prayer ritual is done standing and sitting at the same time.

The person who answers you, will be another person like me, they will answer your question, and then you will call them a "clown" because they didn't address why the Muslim ritual of prayer is right or wrong. You continue with your sad little mind game.

My point is, I don't care. The people in this thread don't care. Go argue your point somewhere outside of a topic discussing what Muslims think and believe instead of turning this into a pro-religion anti-religion thread.

There are thousands of topics already on this forum where people criticise Muslims and people of other religious faiths for believing in God, and I'm sure there are numbers of threads doing the opposite.

You are trying to create a ruckus in here because clearly you are an atheist who doesn't like the idea of any religious belief, so you are playing out your aggressions by arguing dumb things with no merit, I suggest you to simply leave.

As for you not attacking me, you are assocating my comments with unicorns and leprechauns, the ridicule in your reply is blatant, so please stop playing stupid mind games. You called me a "clown" - you are calling me "bucko" - seriously, the only clown in this thread is you. Why don't you go bust a "ventricle" over that one?

 

[tehrik-e-insaaf]

I wouldn't mind a new thread about this discussion as we'll probably get better arguments with Christians and Jews in the picture. Not many people are viewing this thread to build up the discussion and it's also derailing the thread.

What this guy said. If you want an anti-religion thread or something questioning monotheism, go do it, stop derailing a thread specifically about Muslim factual perspective on the issue.

 

[Zapages]

I think that's bullshit. It's basically saying to me that men and women are not capable of praying together because of man's lack of self restraint. I'm no weakling.

You're probably are, but some aren't as strong as you man. You are there to pray not intermingle with each other. So that's why its segregated to keep you focus on what you're there for.

 

[AmMortal]

So now we should come up with a way to protect people's vices instead of calling them on it? You are there to pray, but why is it so bad to pray with a woman? After all you're there to pray. To worship God. What does the sex someone was born with have to do with anything?

You can pray in a congregation at one and the same time ( provided that the women pray behind the men). The reason why men go up front is, that men must pray everyday, every single day of their lives, whereas women, don't pray when they're in their menstrual cycle etc. Which makes it more obligatory for men to pray in mosques, and thus they are more "eligible", as the chances of a man being there are higher then a woman. Not because they're all sex obssessed.

When you pray, you need absolute concentration on God alone. Anything that may distract you from this prayer is prohibited, no loud sounds, people walking in front of you anything. When a man,is praying, and a woman is infront of this man,there is a high possibility of this man losing his concentration and invalidating his prayer, because men are weak for women. Only God should be remembered. These days women people pray with a curtain dividing men and women or in a separate prayer room for both genders.

Although, you should keep in mind that, when it's Hajj, intercontinental men and women pray next to each other, and mix with each other, even touching a non-family member woman does not break your ablution and vice versa.

So, you see clearly there is no problem with mixing when it's nessecary. It is only so that both genders keep their concentration to limited to Allah.

This is not a big issue. It will take time for you to understand it. Knowing Allah is the only thing that matters. The companions themselves didn't pray until 10 years into the existence of Islam. Having the right view of the nature of God is the One and Only thing that matters.

You shouldn't push yourself to get along with everything. Even if you were to become muslim, it wouldn't be expected of you to pray 5 times a day, let alone agree with such trivial things. The prophet said that we should help reverts take it slowly, he said that they'd want to do everything perfect immediately, but they should take it slowly.Because the faith itself was revealed in stages, not in one go.

 

[Instigator]

So now we should come up with a way to protect people's vices instead of calling them on it? You are there to pray, but why is it so bad to pray with a woman? After all you're there to pray. To worship God. What does the sex someone was born with have to do with anything?

No matter the justification, is this issue ultimately a deal breaker for you?

 

[ice cream]

Also Allah recognizes that men are men, its natural for us to be attracted to women. (well someone non-muslims may disagree with this)

 

[AmMortal]

I said above it wasn't. It has nothing to do with the religion itself, it's mostly a tradition/culture thing. I just disagree with it.

Yup, that's why we say, Islam is perfect, the people are not.

don't know if you read this but I'll just say it again.
It will take time for you to understand it. Knowing Allah is the only thing that matters. The companions themselves didn't pray until 10 years into the existence of Islam. Having the right view of the nature of God is the One and Only thing that matters.

You shouldn't push yourself to get along with everything. Even if you were to become muslim, it wouldn't be expected of you to pray 5 times a day, let alone agree with such trivial things. The prophet said that we should help reverts take it slowly, he said that they'd want to do everything perfect immediately, but they should take it slowly.Because the faith itself was revealed in stages, not in one go.

 

[Azih]

About the Mosque separation thing. I can see where Himurou's coming from as churches don't separate men and women and there's no problem there. So I do think to some degree it is a tradition/culture thing. But what happens in mosques that doesn't happen in churches is the prayer itself in which you aren't seated comfortably in a pew but are standing very close together in rows with the rows themselves very close together. It's not 'losing control' that's at issue as much as distraction.

What pisses me off in most mosques though is women standing behind men. I don't think there's any need for separation during the khutba but during the prayer a left/right separation is far more reasonable than the front/back thing that happens.


Heretic: There are quite a few threads in which atheism/theism debates happen and they usually turn into very involved painful semantic discussions about the differences between strong atheism and weak atheism. It's good to have a thread in which that doesn't happen.

 

[AmMortal]

About the Mosque separation thing. I can see where Himurou's coming from as churches don't separate men and women and there's no problem there. So I do think to some degree it is a tradition/culture thing. But what happens in mosques that doesn't happen in churches is the prayer itself in which you aren't seated comfortably in a pew but are standing very close together in rows with the rows themselves very close together. It's not 'losing control' that's at issue as much as distraction.

What pisses me off in most mosques though is women standing behind men. I don't think there's any need for separation during the khutba but during the prayer a left/right separation is far more reasonable than the front/back thing that happens.


Heretic: There are quite a few threads in which atheism/theism debates happen and they usually turn into very involved painful semantic discussions about the differences between strong atheism and weak atheism. It's good to have a thread in which that doesn't happen.

I have to agree with this man.

You see Himuro, in Islam, there is always ongoing discussion, reflection and forming your own views in certain areas. Islam is a flexible faith, adjustable to different cultures and backgrounds. With one thing, Faith in Allah, as the one thing that unites us. This is what Islam is.

It's awesome to see this thread turn into what I had hoped it would.

 

[Instigator]

I said above it wasn't. It has nothing to do with the religion itself, it's mostly a tradition/culture thing. I just disagree with it.

But you're creating a false dilemma. By the book, Islam may not be about these things, but by your own admission, it is the way it is practiced everyday and practicaly everywhere. That kind of dichotomy is hardly unique to any religion that's been around for centuries, BTW. I'd also dare to say that islam, like most great religions, is quite malleable and whether man is perfect or not is irrelevant to this dichotomy.

Unless you start your own islamic sect, this is the Islam you would be converting to, should you choose to convert, that is.

 

[Armitage]

Children are sinless, in every single thing they do.

When do we start sinning? And if children are sinless because they lack they lack the understanding to make correct choices, and the gap between Allah and humans is, literally, infinitely huge, how come adults aren't sinless too? We're basically at the same level as kids.

 

[Instigator]

How is that a false dilemma? It's just something I'm not fond of. Also, it's not like you're required to even go to a mosque, right? It's just purely an observation. Furthermore, not all mosques have seperated areas for sexes as far as I know. Some sites I know, that give information on mosques, talk about everything, from how clean the bathrooms and washrooms are to whether or not men and women are seperated. But what do I know?

It's not a big deal, but like, what is wrong with talking about what you think is wrong with something?

Nothing wrong to talk about it.

It's just that you should have expected people not following their faith as seemingly prescribed in the Qu'ran. But I would concede this looks more like a cultural shock on your part.

 

[Gig]

I'll tell you.

People who have never heard of it, will on the day of Judgement receive justice. In their defense.

Allah will gather all of them.

Allah will appoint to them a prophet in front of their eyes.

and say " Do whatever My prophet commands you to do"

To their shock, The prophet will say " Direct yourselves to hell, that is the command of Allah"

The people that do this with no hesitation, will receive salvation, and whoever rejects will lose salvation.

This is pretty strong stuff to digest.However, take into account the other people, who had faith in God on earth, without seeing or hearing Him. Some of which, like the muslims from now, haven't had the privileges of seeing their Prophet and witnessing Miracles. Prayed everysingle day of their lives, fought for what was right, fasted and had faith in God despite whatevery one else on earth said. They have proved themselves.

Now, it is their time. They will experience the weight of all of the trials and tribulations on earth in one go.

Because Allah does not punish without admonition.

Wait, what?! Dude, that's unfair, why would people be punished for not taking orders from someone they have never met before?

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

When do we start sinning? And if children are sinless because they lack they lack the understanding to make correct choices, and the gap between Allah and humans is, literally, infinitely huge, how come adults aren't sinless too? We're basically at the same level as kids.

Biological Adult according to wikipedia:

Adulthood is generally understood as the time when physical maturation is complete. One reaches their maximum height and secondary sex characteristics form such as body hair and facial hair, voice lowers in pitch (especially noticeable in men), and menses begin (women). Natural sleep patterns change in adulthood, as adults typically require less sleep than during adolescence. One aspect people do not specify is what (psychologically) an adult is. A common theory is that adulthood is the real test of life, to experience the world from a first-person standpoint instead of through the parents. Then the adult can pass those experiences down to younger people and they can experience them when they become adults.

And no. We are not at the same level as kids.

Wait, what?! Dude, that's unfair, why would people be punished for not taking orders from someone they have never met before?

This is the day of Judgment we are talking about. You know... when you die and are rot in grave for 40 days until time starts buzzing fast. Logically speaking, if i didn't know about religions and i was in that situation, i would do whatever and whoever orders me just to get to the other side.

That said, the same question was asked when Prophet Jesus Christ or Mohammad (P.B.U.H) or any other prophet asked people to follow the way of God. Miracles like fruits from heaven or splitting the ocean or breaking the moon in two and back or bringing the dead to life were shown to the people who questioned. It's all about the faith in God.

I know i won't live long enough to see the descent of Jesus Christ and the birth and reign of Antichrist, but here is one of the interesting thing of all the things that will happen. The Antichrist will ask people if they'll choose fire or water. The Antichrist will tell people to follow him and choose water for eternal life and that those who choose fire shall be killed on spot. If you choose water, you are damned to hell for you shouldn't be afraid of fire and the orders of a man who is willing to kill you if you have faith in God.

 

[Instigator]

I'll tell you.

People who have never heard of it, will on the day of Judgement receive justice. In their defense.

Allah will gather all of them.

Allah will appoint to them a prophet in front of their eyes.

and say " Do whatever My prophet commands you to do"

To their shock, The prophet will say " Direct yourselves to hell, that is the command of Allah"

The people that do this with no hesitation, will receive salvation, and whoever rejects will lose salvation.

This is pretty strong stuff to digest.However, take into account the other people, who had faith in God on earth, without seeing or hearing Him. Some of which, like the muslims from now, haven't had the privileges of seeing their Prophet and witnessing Miracles. Prayed everysingle day of their lives, fought for what was right, fasted and had faith in God despite whatevery one else on earth said. They have proved themselves.

Now, it is their time. They will experience the weight of all of the trials and tribulations on earth in one go.

Because Allah does not punish without admonition.

Hadji 2.0?

 

[Gig]

This is the day of Judgment we are talking about. You know... when you die and are rot in grave for 40 days until time starts buzzing fast. Logically speaking, if i didn't know about religions and i was in that situation, i would do whatever and whoever orders me just to get to the other side.

That said, the same question was asked when Prophet Jesus Christ or Mohammad (P.B.U.H) or any other prophet asked people to follow the way of God. Miracles like fruits from heaven or splitting the ocean or breaking the moon in two and back or bringing the dead to life were shown to the people who questioned. It's all about the faith in God.

But what if God isn't good? What if he/she/it orders you to go to hell and you follow that command and you get sent to hell? I don't think it's wise to follows the commands of something if you know nothing about it or it's intentions.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

But what if God isn't good? What if he/she/it orders you to go to hell and you follow that command and you get sent to hell? I don't think it's wise to follows the commands of something if you know nothing about it or it's intentions.

If God isn't good then we are all going to hell anyway... In Earth it isn't wise to talk to strangers but in hereafter i don't think we have any choice but to do what we are told...

And if you are asking "What if that is the voice of the devil?" then I'm pretty sure God is watching it all as it happens and will safeguard his greatest creation from the clutches of the devil.

Remember, The devil had the deal with God that he'll affect lives of people in Earth, not the hereafter. Nothing can harm you in the hereafter if the life that you lead in Earth is pious.

 

[Gig]

If God isn't good then we are all going to hell anyway... In Earth it isn't wise to talk to strangers but in hereafter i don't think we have any choice but to do what we are told...

And if you are asking "What if that is the voice of the devil?" then I'm pretty sure God is watching it all as it happens and will safeguard his greatest creation from the clutches of the devil.

Remember, The devil had the deal with God that he'll affect lives of people in Earth, not the hereafter. Nothing can harm you in the hereafter if the life that you lead in Earth is pious.

Hey, I didn't say God was evil, what if he/she/it was not malevolent, but like a jerk. Like if he/she/it got pissed off that the Patriots won a game and the next ten thousand people who would have gotten in to heaven, get sent to hell. Or maybe he/she/it is a racist and only lets white people into heaven.

 

[AmMortal]

Hadji 2.0?

I wish.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Hey, I didn't say God was evil, what if he/she/it was not malevolent, but like a jerk. Like if he/she/it got pissed off that the Patriots won a game and the next ten thousand people who would have gotten in to heaven, get sent to hell. Or maybe he/she/it is a racist and only lets white people into heaven.

Then i guess you are a joke poster cause God doesn't care if Patriots win or lose and God isn't racist for his Prophets have been from every race and nation of it's time.

 

[Armitage]

Biological Adult according to wikipedia:

Adulthood is generally understood as the time when physical maturation is complete. One reaches their maximum height and secondary sex characteristics form such as body hair and facial hair, voice lowers in pitch (especially noticeable in men), and menses begin (women). Natural sleep patterns change in adulthood, as adults typically require less sleep than during adolescence. One aspect people do not specify is what (psychologically) an adult is. A common theory is that adulthood is the real test of life, to experience the world from a first-person standpoint instead of through the parents. Then the adult can pass those experiences down to younger people and they can experience them when they become adults.

And no. We are not at the same level as kids.

So we don't start sinning until, what, after we can drive? And compared to Allah, yes we are at the same level of kids. If that weren't true, Allah would have a limited intelligence.

 

[Gig]

Then i guess you are a joke poster cause God doesn't care if Patriots win or lose and God isn't racist for his Prophets have been from every race and nation of it's time.

I'm not joking, I don't see how it is impossible for a God to be somewhere in between pure good and pure evil.

Hence, why I think it's unwise for someone to take orders if they don't know the intent of the being giving the orders.

 

[TheHeretic]

But you're creating a false dilemma. By the book, Islam may not be about these things, but by your own admission, it is the way it is practiced everyday and practicaly everywhere. That kind of dichotomy is hardly unique to any religion that's been around for centuries, BTW. I'd also dare to say that islam, like most great religions, is quite malleable and whether man is perfect or not is irrelevant to this dichotomy.

Unless you start your own islamic sect, this is the Islam you would be converting to, should you choose to convert, that is.

Why doesn't Islam acknowledge the sexual desires of the woman? You are covering your women so men won't get erections out on the town, why aren't men covered to stop the women from getting randy over a handsome gent?

Its been mentioned several times that women are kept separate from the men in a Mosque to keep the men from being distracted, this sort of reasoning would have feminists cringing.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

I'm not joking, I don't see how it is impossible for a God to be somewhere in between pure good and pure evil.

Hence, why I think it's unwise for someone to take orders if they don't know the intent of the being giving the orders.

A soldier takes orders from the president/general. He never questions if the war he's waging is right or wrong for he believes in it's country.

So we don't start sinning until, what, after we can drive? And compared to Allah, yes we are at the same level of kids. If that weren't true, Allah would have a limited intelligence.

Thus, i mentioned Biological Adult, not adult in the court of law.

 

[TheHeretic]

And it does cover the sexual desires of women. Men are supposed to dress modestly as well.

Men aren't walking around with Hajibs, and whilst muslims claim they treat women well, they don't treat them equally well.

 

[TheHeretic]

Dressing modestly has little to do with wearing hijab. Some use hijab as an excuse to dress how they want. Wrong. Just because you wear hijab doesn't mean you can walk around with your tits falling out. The hijab is only one part of the issue, and even then, women aren't forced to wear hijab. It's an option.

Its not an option in many islamic countries to not wear a hajib. Thinking so is completely naive.

 

[TheHeretic]

Do I give a crap about Islamic countries? No. I do not live in an Islamic country. Most people who are Muslim don't even live in the Middle East.

Considering they are theocracies it should be a concern. It gives insight into what happens when islams religious leaders are given control of a country. Where you live now the islam community probably makes up a small percentage of the population, look what happens when it takes up the majority of the population.

Muslim countries aren't just the mid east.

 

[Gig]

A soldier takes orders from the president/general. He never questions if the war he's waging is right or wrong for he believes in it's country.

Huh? Of course soldiers question whether the war they waging is right or wrong, and if that soldier were to receive an order that immoral or diabolical I would certainly hope they would not follow it.

 

[Vito]

What do you think we do in Mosques?

Discuss whether to blow people up ?:lol

No, and quite frankly I don't care, because as far as I am concerned Mosques have no place in Europe. You know, I can tolerate religious people, but you are batshit insane .

http://ga-forum.com/showpost.php?p=12783284&postcount=1566

Anyone that says things like the post above should be locked in a mental institution and given proper medicine and care.

 

[Quixzlizx]

I'll tell you.

People who have never heard of it, will on the day of Judgement receive justice. In their defense.

Allah will gather all of them.

Allah will appoint to them a prophet in front of their eyes.

and say " Do whatever My prophet commands you to do"

To their shock, The prophet will say " Direct yourselves to hell, that is the command of Allah"

The people that do this with no hesitation, will receive salvation, and whoever rejects will lose salvation.

This is pretty strong stuff to digest.However, take into account the other people, who had faith in God on earth, without seeing or hearing Him. Some of which, like the muslims from now, haven't had the privileges of seeing their Prophet and witnessing Miracles. Prayed everysingle day of their lives, fought for what was right, fasted and had faith in God despite whatevery one else on earth said. They have proved themselves.

Now, it is their time. They will experience the weight of all of the trials and tribulations on earth in one go.

Because Allah does not punish without admonition.

Someone needs a chill pill.

 

[AmMortal]

No, and quite frankly I don't care, because as far as I am concerned Mosques have no place in Europe. You know, I can tolerate religious people, but you are batshit insane .

http://ga-forum.com/showpost.php?p=12783284&postcount=1566

Anyone that says things like the post above should be locked in a mental institution and given proper medicine and care.

Tell me, what's so batshit insane about what I believe compared to what other religious institutions advocate?

If anything, mine is more Just and Merciful. In christianity ( no offense) for instance, everyone that didn't hear the name of jesus, automatically is doomed. As far as I know.


Tell me which one is worse?

 

[TheHeretic]

Tell me, what's so batshit insane about what I believe compared to what other religious institutions advocate?

If anything, mine is more Just and Merciful. In christianity ( no offense) for instance, everyone that didn't hear the name of jesus, automatically is doomed. As far as I know.


Tell me which one is worse?

Any philosophy that subscribes to "believe what I do or burn for eternity" is a load. How can a finite crime be served with a infinite justice? At the end of the day your God is sadistic and cruel, letting his own creation suffer.

 

[AmMortal]

Any philosophy that subscribes to "believe what I do or burn for eternity" is a load. How can a finite crime be served with a infinite justice? At the end of the day your God is sadistic and cruel, letting his own creation suffer.

Easy, because if God would have given an atheist immortality, this person would stay atheist forever. This is only a test, to see what you will do with your temporary life.

We as muslims believe that God has created us to manifest His attribute of Mercy. The world is cruel, the world is unjust, but Allah will show us true Justice and Mercy at the Day of Judgment.

 

[TheHeretic]

Easy, because if God would have given an atheist immortality, this person would stay atheist forever. This is only a test, to see what you will do with your temporary life.

Err if I died and God starting playing checkers with me i'm pretty sure I would start believing.

 

[AmMortal]

Err if I died and God starting playing checkers with me i'm pretty sure I would start believing.

You only know your true self if you aren't forced to do what's best for you. Remember, this is like an exam, showing you the clear answers would make the test useless. This way, you are proving to yourself that you are by nature, a good person.

 

[TheHeretic]

You only know your true self if you aren't forced to do what's best for you. Remember, this is like an exam, showing you the clear answers would make the test useless. This way, you are proving to yourself that you are by nature, a good person.

Being a good person has nothing to do with believing in God. There are good people who have believed in God, and those who haven't. And its like an exam where if you fail you spent an infinite amount of time in agonizing pain, your religion only gets followers by threatening people.