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[AmMortal]

And I'm an atheist! It's like China-hate threads where people get all hot and bothered about the CCP and forget that China invented gunpowder, paper, printing, the compass, and the oldest continuously written language in the world. What have the Romans Chinese Arabs ever given us?

:lol

So true.

 

[dacuk]

For a person from a country were Muslims are almost non-existant (Costa Rica), this thread is full of win and wisdom

 

[AmMortal]

For a person from a country were Muslims are almost non-existant (Costa Rica), this thread is full of win and wisdom

I can only hope you're serious

 

[GSG Flash]

Have any of you ever read this article?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20060311/ai_n16147544

It's very insightful

 

[AmMortal]

Have any of you ever read this article?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20060311/ai_n16147544

It's very insightful

Oh my, now that's something VERY interesting.


So many things, just amazing.

1 The story goes that an Arab named Khalid was tending his goats in the Kaffa region of southern Ethiopia, when he noticed his animals became livelier after eating a certain berry. He boiled the berries to make the first coffee. Certainly the first record of the drink is of beans exported from Ethiopia to Yemen where Sufis drank it to stay awake all night to pray on special occasions. By the late 15th century it had arrived in Mecca and Turkey from where it made its way to Venice in 1645. It was brought to England in 1650 by a Turk named Pasqua Rosee who opened the first coffee house in Lombard Street in the City of London. The Arabic qahwa became the Turkish kahve then the Italian caff and then English coffee.

2 The ancient Greeks thought our eyes emitted rays, like a laser, which enabled us to see. The first person to realise that light enters the eye, rather than leaving it, was the 10th-century Muslim mathematician, astronomer and physicist Ibn al-Haitham. He invented the first pin-hole camera after noticing the way light came through a hole in window shutters. The smaller the hole, the better the picture, he worked out, and set up the first Camera Obscura (from the Arab word qamara for a dark or private room). He is also credited with being the first man to shift physics from a philosophical activity to an experimental one.

3 A form of chess was played in ancient India but the game was developed into the form we know it today in Persia. From there it spread westward to Europe - where it was introduced by the Moors in Spain in the 10th century - and eastward as far as Japan. The word rook comes from the Persian rukh, which means chariot.

4 A thousand years before the Wright brothers a Muslim poet, astronomer, musician and engineer named Abbas ibn Firnas made several attempts to construct a flying machine. In 852 he jumped from the minaret of the Grand Mosque in Cordoba using a loose cloak stiffened with wooden struts. He hoped to glide like a bird. He didn't. But the cloak slowed his fall, creating what is thought to be the first parachute, and leaving him with only minor injuries. In 875, aged 70, having perfected a machine of silk and eagles' feathers he tried again, jumping from a mountain. He flew to a significant height and stayed aloft for ten minutes but crashed on landing - concluding, correctly, that it was because he had not given his device a tail so it would stall on landing. Baghdad international airport and a crater on the Moon are named after him.

5 Washing and bathing are religious requirements for Muslims, which is perhaps why they perfected the recipe for soap which we still use today. The ancient Egyptians had soap of a kind, as did the Romans who used it more as a pomade. But it was the Arabs who combined vegetable oils with sodium hydroxide and aromat-ics such as thyme oil. One of the Crusaders' most striking characteristics, to Arab nostrils, was that they did not wash. Shampoo was introduced to England by a Muslim who opened Mahomed's Indian Vapour Baths on Brighton seafront in 1759 and was appointed Shampooing Surgeon to Kings George IV and William IV

6 Distillation, the means of separating liquids through differences in their boiling points, was invented around the year 800 by Islam's foremost scientist, Jabir ibn Hayyan, who transformed alchemy into chemistry, inventing many of the basic processes and apparatus still in use today - liquefaction, crystallisation, distillation, purification, oxidisation, evaporation and iltration. As well as discovering uric and nitric acid, he ted the alembic still, giving the world intense rosewater and other mes and alcoholic spirits (although drinking them is haram, or forbidden, in Islam). Ibn Hayyan emphasised systematic experimentation and was the founder of modern chemistry.

7 The crank-shaft is a device which translates rotary into linear motion and is central to much of the machinery in the modern world, not least the internal combustion engine. One of the most important mechanical inventions in the history of humankind, it was created by an ingenious Muslim engineer called al- Jazari to raise water for irrigation. His 1206 Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices shows he also invented or refined the use of valves and pistons, devised some of the first mechanical clocks driven by water and weights, and was the father of robotics. Among his 50 other inventions was the combination lock.

8 Quilting is a method of sewing or tying two layers of cloth with a layer of insulating material in between. It is not clear whether it was invented in the Muslim world or whether it was imported there from India or China. But it certainly came to the West via the Crusaders. They saw it used by Saracen warriors, who wore straw-filled quilted canvas shirts instead of armour. As well as a form of protection, it proved an effective guard against the chafing of the Crusaders' metal armour and was an effective form of insulation - so much so that it became a cottage industry back home in colder climates such as Britain and Holland.

I knew about some, but not all :O

btw the reason why I quoted it, was for other people to see it easier, so they won't have to go searching for one link xD

 

[dacuk]

I can only hope you're serious

Yes. Costa Rica is a country of strong Catholic roots, and the main non-Christian religion here is Judaism (mostly business people)

Trying to look for Muslim people to ask / research about the Islam here would be as hard as finding an idol on Mecca

 

[SuperAngelo64]

Huh, I didn't know this thread existed.

I do want to ask all the Muslims in this thread the same question I asked Himuro in his thread the other day:

I want to know what Muslims outside of the Arabic world and it's traditions, feel about Hadith. Personally, I strictly follow the Quran and have rebuked the Hadiths as fabrications. However, this tends to turn heads around other more 'traditional' Muslims.

I think the fact that the Sunni and the Shiite countries are pitted against one another over things that other people claim that The Prophet said and did outside of divine revelation (Quran) is sad.

 

[GSG Flash]

Oh my, now that's something VERY interesting.


So many things, just amazing.


I knew about some, but not all :O

btw the reason why I quoted it, was for other people to see it easier, so they won't have to go searching for one link xD

Yeah, I didn't know like the majority of the stuff on that page, and there's more stuff on the 2nd and 3rd pages too.

 

[Linkhero1]

Have any of you ever read this article?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20060311/ai_n16147544

It's very insightful

You learn something everyday. I didn't know about most if the information on that page.

 

[onipex]

Jesus was never really "God," even in Christianity.

I think he his considered to be one of the three rasul, the other two being Moses and, of course, Muhammad.

So Christians , Muslims and Jews all worship the same god in different ways?

 

[AmMortal]

Huh, I didn't know this thread existed.

I do want to ask all the Muslims in this thread the same question I asked Himuro in his thread the other day:

I want to know what Muslims outside of the Arabic world and it's traditions, feel about Hadith. Personally, I strictly follow the Quran and have rebuked the Hadiths as fabrications. However, this tends to turn heads around other more 'traditional' Muslims.

I think the fact that the Sunni and the Shiite countries are pitted against one another over things that other people claim that The Prophet said and did outside of divine revelation (Quran) is sad.

I am an African.


My brother, Allah says:

"And obey Allah and the messenger, that ye may find mercy" (Quran 3:132)

I understand why you think that hadith are fabricated, and no doubt some are. However, if you only knew, the process of actual hadith collection, and how much of great care has been taken to collect the correct passages. All of authentic hadith are from the sahabah themselves, one of the persons to related the most hadith was Aisha ( ra) the prophet's wive. Hardly, people who would take things lightly regarding what the prophet did. If you understood, the strict measures and dedication taken, you would undoubtebly accept it.


As you know , we as muslims have to pray 5 times a day, nowhere in the Qur'an has Allah revealed how or when. We also, have to pay Zakah, of which Allah also does not tell us how to practice. Allah did this intentionally. Qur'an tells us to :


The Qur'an 4:59, {O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and
those of you who are in authority; and if you have a dispute concerning any
matter, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you believe in Allah and the
Last Day; that is best and more suitable to the end.}

"And whatsoever the Messenger allows you to do, do it. And whatsoever he forbids, abstain (from it.)" (Quran 59:7)

Emphasising on the relationship between Qur'an and Hadith.

We don't have the prophet today with us, but we have what he did and said, through people he loved and they loved him.


The Qur'an 33:21, {Verily in the Messenger of Allah you have a good example
for whoever hopes for Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much.}


Hadith explains the Qur'an, the various blessings of it, and its meaning and purpose. Also, how to act, and how to be a muslim.



Don't let that whole shia, sunni thing put you off, it's too complicated, and is only an obstacle for us.

So Christians , Muslims and Jews all worship the same god in different ways?

exactly.

 

[Gomu Gomu]

probably the best thread that I have ever seen in any internet forums.

I'm a Muslim, Saudi, and willing - in sha'Allah- to help as much as I can

any questions you've got I'll try to answer them, if - for any reason - I don't know the answer.. I'll ask & seek for an answer !!

good luck everyone.

 

[Smiling Bandit]

Have any of you ever read this article?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20060311/ai_n16147544

It's very insightful

My brother, Allah says:

With all the care that is taken regarding these rituals imagine if this kind of effort were put into something actually useful. If the Islamic world would use their great sense for detail to produce something meaningful instead of wasting it on religious dogma they surely would be in a better position than they are today and they would also get way more respect than they do.

 

[Instigator]

So Christians , Muslims and Jews all worship the same god in different ways?

I'd post a mighty big asterisk right here and claim that the line is blurred more that that, they don't just worship him in different ways, they also see him differently, expect different things from him and even call him by different names.

The common thread is all three religions took the Torah and the God in it as a starting point, but went their own way after that. To me, this is akin to Jupiter, Zeus and Odin being related (and they most certainly are), but are not the same god.

 

[onipex]

I'd post a mighty big asterisk right here and claim that the line is blurred more that that, they don't just worship him in different ways, they also see him differently, expect different things from him and even call him by different names.

The common thread is all three religions took the Torah and the God in it as a starting point, but went their own way after that. To me, this is akin to Jupiter, Zeus and Odin being related (and they most certainly are), but are not the same god.

Christians use the same names as Jews and Muslims.


I asked my question because I took a class on the history of religion when I was 12 and it seems these 3 all took a different spin on the same god. Jews worship him first and he was called the god of the Jews by every one else. Then Jesus came along and that lead to the Christians. Muhammad then led to Islam.


Now I'm pretty positive that Christians believe they worship the same god as the Jews with the only difference being Christians believing that Jesus is the son of god.

 

[agrajag]

The common thread is all three religions took the Torah and the God in it as a starting point, but went their own way after that. To me, this is akin to Jupiter, Zeus and Odin being related (and they most certainly are), but are not the same god.

That's incorrect, Instigator. Roman mythology is basically a translation of the Greek. The only thing different is the names. Zeus is Jupiter, Aries is Mars, Aphrodite is Venus, etc.

Norse mythology is completely different, with its own pantheon of Gods and legends. The only thing similar is that the Norse mythology is also polytheistic and its gods are often promiscuous misogynists.

 

[AmMortal]

With all the care that is taken regarding these rituals imagine if this kind of effort were put into something actually useful. If the Islamic world would use their great sense for detail to produce something meaningful instead of wasting it on religious dogma they surely would be in a better position than they are today and they would also get way more respect than they do.

The paradox here, is that if they had not taken those measures, they wouldn't hae accomplished what they did. Also, enlightening the world is better then anything achieved for the material aspect of this world.

I'd post a mighty big asterisk right here and claim that the line is blurred more that that, they don't just worship him in different ways, they also see him differently, expect different things from him and even call him by different names.

The common thread is all three religions took the Torah and the God in it as a starting point, but went their own way after that. To me, this is akin to Jupiter, Zeus and Odin being related (and they most certainly are), but are not the same god.

They are the same One God. Christians worship him differently then jews or Muslims, as these to are primarly the same in most aspects of worship.


Islam takes, the stance that, the torah was not the first code of law God had sent down.

For instance,there were also, the Scrolls of Abraham. The way to make it easy to comprehend, is that Islam ( submission to the will of the One God), was preached by Abraham. As the term judaism was created milenia later. This "Islam" was reformed and extended to a more complex mechanism, the Torah, passed on to through the children of Isreal, where it became much harder for people to comprehend the scriptures, after another amount of milenia. Islam dictates, that Jesus came to do what Moses did, and reform and expand the torah, into a "Gospel" so that the people should rejoice, because God had made certain things now permissible and certain things forbidden that were not prior to it. As the psyche of people changes over time.

Muhammad came to do the same, and complete what was before him, he was the last of the descendants of Abraham, to achieve prophethood. Here, because it is the final word, God Himself had taken upon Himself to protect and keep His Words alive, forever until the day of judgement.

Islam can be destroyed by just one thing.

If anyone, or anything can create just 1 chapter ( and that's 3 verses at the least) like it. 1428 years and no one has managed to do it.

Until then, it is the Word of God.

 

[kobashi100]

Huh, I didn't know this thread existed.

I do want to ask all the Muslims in this thread the same question I asked Himuro in his thread the other day:

I want to know what Muslims outside of the Arabic world and it's traditions, feel about Hadith. Personally, I strictly follow the Quran and have rebuked the Hadiths as fabrications. However, this tends to turn heads around other more 'traditional' Muslims.

I think the fact that the Sunni and the Shiite countries are pitted against one another over things that other people claim that The Prophet said and did outside of divine revelation (Quran) is sad.

I am a mixed race revert living in the UK and I follow the Hadith. I could never deny the hadiths.

The hadith explains how we pray. The issues of Zakat are explained in hadith.

 

[Instigator]

That's incorrect, Instigator. Roman mythology is basically a translation of the Greek.

Oversimplification of Roman mythology. And Jupiter was there long before the Romans even started copying Greek mythologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_(god)

Norse mythology is completely different, with its own pantheon of Gods and legends. The only thing similar is that the Norse mythology is also polytheistic and its gods are often promiscuous misogynists.

It's less similar than Roman and Greek mythologies are to each other, but you are missing a very large piece of the puzzle if you claim it is (almost) completely different. There's also a lineage tying all those old European mythologies together:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion

Enjoy your education!

 

[victreeb3l]

Huh, I didn't know this thread existed.

I do want to ask all the Muslims in this thread the same question I asked Himuro in his thread the other day:

I want to know what Muslims outside of the Arabic world and it's traditions, feel about Hadith. Personally, I strictly follow the Quran and have rebuked the Hadiths as fabrications. However, this tends to turn heads around other more 'traditional' Muslims.

I think the fact that the Sunni and the Shiite countries are pitted against one another over things that other people claim that The Prophet said and did outside of divine revelation (Quran) is sad.

I'm Bengali and for the most part, the Hadith are loosely followed. AFAIK, alot of them are mostly customs and mannerism things as opposed to an actual belief system. We're not too crazy about them, tbh. Just mainly prayer, Qu'ran, and the traditions such as Eid and Ramadan.

Questions to all the Muslims here on GAF, do your families implement Burqas? Nobody in my family has ever worn one. It's one thing to have a head scarf, but I think it's just ridiculous to have it completely cover your body head to toe.

 

[Smiling Bandit]

The paradox here, is that if they had not taken those measures, they wouldn't hae accomplished what they did. Also, enlightening the world is better then anything achieved for the material aspect of this world.

In hindsight these achievements look more like a detour especially considering how little the Islamic world is contributing to the field of scientific discoveries nowadays. If they think that spreading their religion goes in the same vein as the things from the list they are as far off as they can get. Not to forget that many Islamic scientists were actually chastised for their activities and as a necessity they were the ones most likely doubting the faith.

 

[AmMortal]

I'm Bengali and for the most part, the Hadith are loosely followed. AFAIK, alot of them are mostly customs and mannerism things as opposed to an actual belief system. We're not too crazy about them, tbh. Just mainly prayer, Qu'ran, and the traditions such as Eid and Ramadan.

Questions to all the Muslims here on GAF, do your families implement Burqas? Nobody in my family has ever worn one. It's one thing to have a head scarf, but I think it's just ridiculous to have it completely cover your body head to toe.

The Burqah, is not anything commanded by Allah or His prophet. It is a culture issue.

Allah has ordered, the Hijab, which basically means hair and chest cover.

The Burqah, was practised by the arabs, Before Islam.

 

[AmMortal]

In hindsight these achievements look more like a detour especially considering how little the Islamic world is contributing to the field of scientific discoveries nowadays. If they think that spreading their religion goes in the same vein as the things from the list they are as far off as they can get. Not to forget that many Islamic scientists were actually chastised for their activities and as a necessity they were the ones most likely doubting the faith.

Well, mostly, these people were also, very good at their religion. They, together with scholars which are now respected widely, were chastised, by ruling parties. There was a lot of political sinicism, that ultimately lead to the demise of their empires.

So I agree with you.

 

[Linkhero1]

I'm Bengali and for the most part, the Hadith are loosely followed. AFAIK, alot of them are mostly customs and mannerism things as opposed to an actual belief system. We're not too crazy about them, tbh. Just mainly prayer, Qu'ran, and the traditions such as Eid and Ramadan.

Questions to all the Muslims here on GAF, do your families implement Burqas? Nobody in my family has ever worn one. It's one thing to have a head scarf, but I think it's just ridiculous to have it completely cover your body head to toe.

Nope. The most is just a hijab and that's about it.

 

[Instigator]

They are the same One God. Christians worship him differently then jews or Muslims, as these to are primarly the same in most aspects of worship.

Islam takes, the stance that, the torah was not the first code of law God had sent down.

For instance,there were also, the Scrolls of Abraham. The way to make it easy to comprehend, is that Islam ( submission to the will of the One God), was preached by Abraham. As the term judaism was created milenia later. This "Islam" was reformed and extended to a more complex mechanism, the Torah, passed on to through the children of Isreal, where it became much harder for people to comprehend the scriptures, after another amount of milenia. Islam dictates, that Jesus came to do what Moses did, and reform and expand the torah, into a "Gospel" so that the people should rejoice, because God had made certain things now permissible and certain things forbidden that were not prior to it. As the psyche of people changes over time.

Muhammad came to do the same, and complete what was before him, he was the last of the descendants of Abraham, to achieve prophethood. Here, because it is the final word, God Himself had taken upon Himself to protect and keep His Words alive, forever until the day of judgement.

Islam can be destroyed by just one thing.

If anyone, or anything can create just 1 chapter ( and that's 3 verses at the least) like it. 1428 years and no one has managed to do it.

Until then, it is the Word of God.

I think the problem is that I was arguing my point from a purely theological standpoint and not using any faith's POV. But my point still stand.

While Judaism can scoff at anything that came after it as monstrous aberrations, there's an interest in both Islam and Christianity to hold whatever came before in high esteem since they take a large part of their legitimacy from those earlier divine revelations. Being the last monotheistic faith, Islam is most dependent on that past link. Of course it goes without saying that thinking you're believing in the same god is logical in that mindset.

I can certainly understand that, in the interest of world peace and putting behind centuries of wars and discord behind us, the idea of worshipping the same god and highlighting similarities between people of different faiths can't hurt, but factually, I just find it inaccurate. Don't hate me for it!

 

[kobashi100]

I'm Bengali and for the most part, the Hadith are loosely followed. AFAIK, alot of them are mostly customs and mannerism things as opposed to an actual belief system. We're not too crazy about them, tbh. Just mainly prayer, Qu'ran, and the traditions such as Eid and Ramadan.

Questions to all the Muslims here on GAF, do your families implement Burqas? Nobody in my family has ever worn one. It's one thing to have a head scarf, but I think it's just ridiculous to have it completely cover your body head to toe.

I wouldnt say it is ridiculous to cover your whole body. If sisters feel that wearing the burqa or niqab is required to please Allah then there I dont see any problem with this.

Quick question for all muslims here, suppose to the muslims in America right now. Do you bother voting in general elections?

Does your mosque encourage you to vote? I dont take part myself and I know here in the UK that there are mosques I visit and they have signs saying no politics in the mosque. Some mosques ban people from certain islamic groups etc who dont support democracy etc. (which is a joke itself). But when the whole election process comes along they invite the local MP and encourage us to support them etc.

 

[AmMortal]

I think the problem is that I was arguing my point from a purely theological standpoint and not using any faith's POV. But my point still stand.

While Judaism can scoff at anything that came after it as monstrous aberrations, there's an interest in both Islam and Christianity to hold whatever came before in high esteem since they take a large part of their legitimacy from those earlier divine revelations. Being the last monotheistic faith, Islam is most dependent on that past link. Of course it goes without saying that thinking you're believing in the same god is logical in that mindset.

I can certainly understand that, in the interest of world peace and putting behind centuries of wars and discord behind us, the idea of worshipping the same god and highlighting similarities between people of different faiths can't hurt, but factually, I just find it inaccurate. Don't hate me for it!

I can't hate you for that xD

What you need to understand is, that even before these wrold wars and discords. Islam still emphasised that it is only the One God.

in the Qur'an God says:

And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

29:46

Pointing to the fact, that Christians, jews and Muslims worship the same God, but attribute different things to Him.
Some christians might see it differently. But that's not my problem

As far as jews and muslims, it is the most simple thing.
Jews can pray in the Mosque of Muslims, and vice versa.
Muslims can eat in a jewish restaurant, and vice versa.
Jews and Muslims speak the same form of words, educated Jews understand the Qur'an to some extent. We say Eloh and Allah, the same thing.

Even the Banu Hashim( tribe of Muhammad) traced their lineage directly back to Abraham.

Also, Arabic speaking Jews and Christians all call God Allah.

 

[victreeb3l]

I wouldnt say it is ridiculous to cover your whole body. If sisters feel that wearing the burqa or niqab is required to please Allah then there I dont see any problem with this.

Absolutely not. I just don't like how it's sometimes forced upon alot of women. But that's a whole entire issue in itself.

I jump around mosques and theyre all pretty happy about Obama winning the election.

 

[onipex]

I think the problem is that I was arguing my point from a purely theological standpoint and not using any faith's POV. But my point still stand.

While Judaism can scoff at anything that came after it as monstrous aberrations, there's an interest in both Islam and Christianity to hold whatever came before in high esteem since they take a large part of their legitimacy from those earlier divine revelations. Being the last monotheistic faith, Islam is most dependent on that past link. Of course it goes without saying that thinking you're believing in the same god is logical in that mindset.

I can certainly understand that, in the interest of world peace and putting behind centuries of wars and discord behind us, the idea of worshipping the same god and highlighting similarities between people of different faiths can't hurt, but factually, I just find it inaccurate. Don't hate me for it!

I don't know why anyone would hate you for that, but I don't agree with your point.

I do agree that we all need to look at what is similar between the different faiths to put a lot of things behind us.

 

[Zapages]

I wouldnt say it is ridiculous to cover your whole body. If sisters feel that wearing the burqa or niqab is required to please Allah then there I dont see any problem with this.

Quick question for all muslims here, suppose to the muslims in America right now. Do you bother voting in general elections?

Does your mosque encourage you to vote? I dont take part myself and I know here in the UK that there are mosques I visit and they have signs saying no politics in the mosque. Some mosques ban people from certain islamic groups etc who dont support democracy etc. (which is a joke itself). But when the whole election process comes along they invite the local MP and encourage us to support them etc.

I voted... I don't know about the Mosque thing, as there is somewhat of voting, but usually the ones who run things usually wins.

Actually the Hajj was far more significant it was suppose to be cultural and political meeting addition to religious portion. But with end of the Caliphate and the rise of Nationalism that all ended... Plus political Islam in Saudi Arabia is looked down upon due to the fact that it will undermine their rule there.

 

[kobashi100]

I voted... I don't know about the Mosque thing, as there is somewhat of voting, but usually the ones who run things usually wins.

Actually the Hajj was far more significant it was suppose to be cultural and political meeting addition to religious portion. But with end of the Caliphate and the rise of Nationalism that all ended... Plus political Islam in Saudi Arabia is looked down upon due to the fact that it will undermine their rule there.

sorry what I meant was did your local mosque encourage you to vote in the US elections? We have big debates here in the UK when the election time comes around. There always seem to be a split with people who dont vote as they view it haraam and then others who see democracy as a tool to get into the system and then change it.

some mosques will straight out ban any groups who are against voting in the democratic system. I find that really silly as debate is a good thing.

Oh and yeah the house of Saud just like all muslim rulers dont want too see any rise of groups who call for the caliphate.

 

[agrajag]

Oversimplification of Roman mythology. And Jupiter was there long before the Romans even started copying Greek mythologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_(god)




It's less similar than Roman and Greek mythologies are to each other, but you are missing a very large piece of the puzzle if you claim it is (almost) completely different. There's also a lineage tying all those old European mythologies together:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion

Enjoy your education!

Of course all early polytheistic mythologies share roots. Just like the origins of Abrahamic religions can be traced back to the legend of Gilgamesh. I don't need a bunch of Wikepidia articles to know that.

And if I oversimplified Roman mythology, it is only because I don't want to write a treatise on it. That is nothing, however, compared to saying that Norse and Greek mythologies are basically the same, like you did :lol It is completely different, if you bother to read the lore. My sister has a masters in Classics from Cornell, so believe me when I say that I am well familiarized with the history of ancient Rome and Greece.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

The paradox here, is that if they had not taken those measures, they wouldn't hae accomplished what they did. Also, enlightening the world is better then anything achieved for the material aspect of this world.






They are the same One God. Christians worship him differently then jews or Muslims, as these to are primarly the same in most aspects of worship.


Islam takes, the stance that, the torah was not the first code of law God had sent down.

For instance,there were also, the Scrolls of Abraham. The way to make it easy to comprehend, is that Islam ( submission to the will of the One God), was preached by Abraham. As the term judaism was created milenia later. This "Islam" was reformed and extended to a more complex mechanism, the Torah, passed on to through the children of Isreal, where it became much harder for people to comprehend the scriptures, after another amount of milenia. Islam dictates, that Jesus came to do what Moses did, and reform and expand the torah, into a "Gospel" so that the people should rejoice, because God had made certain things now permissible and certain things forbidden that were not prior to it. As the psyche of people changes over time.

Muhammad came to do the same, and complete what was before him, he was the last of the descendants of Abraham, to achieve prophethood. Here, because it is the final word, God Himself had taken upon Himself to protect and keep His Words alive, forever until the day of judgement.

Islam can be destroyed by just one thing.

If anyone, or anything can create just 1 chapter ( and that's 3 verses at the least) like it. 1428 years and no one has managed to do it.

Until then, it is the Word of God.

what does this last statement mean?

 

[Instigator]

Of course all early polytheistic mythologies share roots. Just like the origins of Abrahamic religions can be traced back to the legend of Gilgamesh. I don't need a bunch of Wikepidia articles to know that.

And if I oversimplified Roman mythology, it is only because I don't want to write a treatise on it. That is nothing, however, compared to saying that Norse and Greek mythologies are basically the same, like you did :lol It is completely different, if you bother to read the lore. My sister has a masters in Classics from Cornell, so believe me when I say that I am well familiarized with the history of ancient Rome and Greece.

Nowhere did I claim they were the same. I didn't even imply it. Read again. Word for word, if you have to. There's a world of difference between saying two things are the same and saying they share something.

Keep in mind the larger discussion at hand at it relates to this topic and why those Europeans gods were even brought up. You may agree or disagree here, I have no idea, but I do know we're geting sidetracked with this issue.

And I'd actually strongly dispute that all (as in ALL if I take you literally) early polytheistic mythologies share roots. Common threads, similarities, parallels, yes, but roots? That's pure, unsubtantiated bollocks. Maybe your relunctance to write a treatise is to blame again but a simple swap of a single adjective would have erased all ambiguity.

And I'm sorry but your sister is not posting here, only you.

 

[agrajag]

Whatever, dude. You said that Norse Mythology is to Roman as Christianity is to Judaism. That's plain bullshit, but you refuse to admit it because you're trying to live up to your name.

 

[Instigator]

Whatever, dude. You said that Norse Mythology is to Roman as Christianity is to Judaism. That's plain bullshit, but you refuse to admit it because you're trying to live up to your name.

Bollocks again since both were paralllel myhologies. It would't even work as a comparison. The only way the judaism comparison would work would be with proto Indo European religion as the starting point. It was always about all the gods were related yet different since this was the point I was trying to make and the point others in this thread are still arguing with me about.

If you can't argue without resorting to cheap shots then, yes, just withdraw. No ill feelings though.

 

[Azih]

I want to know what Muslims outside of the Arabic world and it's traditions, feel about Hadith.

There's no agreement really. Consensus is to respect it but not really pay much attention to it

Personally, I strictly follow the Quran and have rebuked the Hadiths as fabrications.

I'm with you there.

However, this tends to turn heads around other more 'traditional' Muslims.

There too. Hell I didn't even know I was thinking anything radical until quite a few years after I concluded that words written down two hundred years after the Prophet died were not reliable. Go figure.

 

[Linkhero1]

what does this last statement mean?

Basically a challenge from Allah to those who are in doubt.

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/550/

“And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Quran) to Our servant (Muhammad), then produce a chapter the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides God, if you are truthful. But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.” (Quran 2:23-24, emphasis added)

“Or do they say, ‘He (Muhammad) has forged it?’ Say, ‘Bring then a chapter like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides God, if you are truthful!’” (Quran 10:38)

“Or do they say, ‘He (Muhammad) forged it.’ Say, ‘Bring you then ten forged chapters like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than God (to your help), if you speak the truth.’” (Quran 11:13)

“Say (to the people), ‘If all of humankind and jinns were together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another.’” (Quran 17:88)

“Or do they say, ‘He (Muhammad) has forged it?’ Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it if they are truthful.” (Quran 52:33-34)

 

[agrajag]

Bollocks again since both were paralllel myhologies. It would't even work as a comparison. The only way the judaism comparison would work would be with proto Indo European religion as the starting point. It was always about all the gods were related yet different since this was the point I was trying to make and the point others in this thread are still arguing with me about.

If you can't argue without resorting to cheap shots then, yes, just withdraw. No ill feelings though.

You said Allah is to Yahweh as Jupiter is to Odin. If anything is bollocks, it's this.

 

[Christine]

what does this last statement mean?

Al-Baqarah 23 And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.

Doctrine of Inimitability

 

[Azih]

In hindsight these achievements look more like a detour especially considering how little the Islamic world is contributing to the field of scientific discoveries nowadays.

Complete total and utter Bunk. The Islamic World today is in the third world and *no* country in the thrid world contributes anything of worth to scientific discoveries. Back in the ninth and tenth centuries it was the most dynamic and progressive. The reasons that the Islamic world fell into poverty has absolutely nothing to do with religion as should be obvious as the 'Islamic' world throughout history and today has created societies that are completely different from one another in almost every way.

Not to forget that many Islamic scientists were actually chastised for their activities and as a necessity they were the ones most likely doubting the faith.

Wow, you are so completely pulling stuff out of thin air here. It's fine as airy speculation but please don't tell me you're actually basing your conclusions and world view off of these kinds of baseless thoughts.

 

[Instigator]

You said Allah is to Yahweh as Jupiter is to Odin. If anything is bollocks, it's this.

Finally we're getting closer to more accurate statements. It wasn't precisely that as you still seem to be implying that I said one generated the other, I didn't do that (only restricted the original god to the reconstructed indo european god in the wikipedia links).

However, I do stand (and permit me to slightly elaborate) that these related european gods (Tyr seems more appropriate than Odin in retrospect though), sharing common origin, etymology in names and similar places/roles in their pantheons are in effect the same god, yet different, in a similar way that I consider the God/Holy Trinity from Catholicism (the biggest Christian denomination after all) as not quite same as Allah in Islam.

If you disagree with that statement, then fine.

 

[agrajag]

Finally we're getting closer to more accurate statements. It wasn't precisely that as you still seem to be implying that I said one generated the other, I didn't do that (only restricted the original god to the reconstructed indo european god in the wikipedia links).

However, I do stand (and permit me to slightly elaborate) that these related european gods (Tyr seems more appropriate than Odin in retrospect though), sharing common origin, etymology in names and similar places/roles in their pantheons are in effect the same god, yet different, in a similar way that I consider the God/Holy Trinity from Catholicism (the biggest Christian denomination after all) as not quite same as Allah in Islam.

If you disagree with that statement, then fine.

Yeah, I disagree. I would've agreed with you if you left Odin out of your comparison.

 

[AmMortal]

what does this last statement mean?

Simple.

God said, "you don't believe that this is My Word?"

Then rightdown 3 verses similar to it in eloquence, and style, and depth"

No one has ever been able to do it.

Also, remember Muhammad was an illiterate.

Let me tell you a story.


One day, the prophet's son, died in infancy. He was named Abraham, that day that he died, a solar eclipse occured.

People started shouting " The prophet's son died, God has done this eclipse in honour of him"


Then the prophet Muhammad rushed outside, and said " An Eclipse, has nothing to do with the death or birth of someone, it is only a sign of God to you, that you may fear and remember Him".

If he was a false prophet, no doubt he would have ceased this opportunity. Yet he chose to deny an easy way of gathering people to his faith. This shows immence sincerity, and truthfulness.

sorry what I meant was did your local mosque encourage you to vote in the US elections? We have big debates here in the UK when the election time comes around. There always seem to be a split with people who dont vote as they view it haraam and then others who see democracy as a tool to get into the system and then change it.

some mosques will straight out ban any groups who are against voting in the democratic system. I find that really silly as debate is a good thing.

Oh and yeah the house of Saud just like all muslim rulers dont want too see any rise of groups who call for the caliphate.

Not voting is just foolish, it is part of the citizenship of britian, and your duty unto Allah, that you should vote for the person with the lesser inclination to evil. Sharia, does not in any way or form, decline one to vote. Also, funny how people have debates over something trivial, yes I said trivial, because the issue of prayer is more important.

 

[Feep]

So, I'm sure this has been brought up in some of the thirty-eight pages prior, but alas, time is short, and I need to pack for my Thanksgiving trip back home.

My not-actually-informed-in-any-way view of Islam is not really tainted by all the extremist stuff, but a qualm that I have never really had denied to me fully is the apparent women's rights issues inherent in the Quran. Mind you, the Bible has its fair share of sexism, but in a world where even America's Bible-crazed society holds equality of the sexes as a serious issue, the Muslim nations seem massively backwards. (Side note: I'm a deist, by the way.)

So what's the real deal, folks? How does the Quran view women in general, and do modern Islamic teachings follow these views?

 

[AmMortal]

So, I'm sure this has been brought up in some of the thirty-eight pages prior, but alas, time is short, and I need to pack for my Thanksgiving trip back home.

My not-actually-informed-in-any-way view of Islam is not really tainted by all the extremist stuff, but a qualm that I have never really had denied to me fully is the apparent women's rights issues inherent in the Quran. Mind you, the Bible has its fair share of sexism, but in a world where even America's Bible-crazed society holds equality of the sexes as a serious issue, the Muslim nations seem massively backwards. (Side note: I'm a deist, by the way.)

So what's the real deal, folks? How does the Quran view women in general, and do modern Islamic teachings follow these views?

The Prophet Muhammad, was considered a liberist at his time. So much so that the arabs labeled him a feminist. The people used to bury their daughters, women got nothing out of a marriage except wrong treatment and injuries. Women were just above slaves,in society.

Islam came, and brought and end to all of that. For instance, did you know that Burqahs were worn by women Prior to islam? Allah introduced, the Hijab, which is far less demanding of women. Also, gave them inheritance rights, and right to have a say in who sould be the leader of the muslim nation at that time. Right to spend her earned money the way she wants, while a man is obliged to put all of it in the maintenance of the household.


People have gone backwards, since then, no understanding of the Qur'an and immense amount of ignorance, has made the islamic world only islamic by name. By practices, in terms of human rights, etc. and even belief in some areas they are far away from Islam.
An example would be the burqah, it is something that was practised before Islam, yet people still force it on their women- which makes me mad.

 

[Feep]

The Prophet Muhammad, was considered a liberist at his time. So much so that the arabs labeled him a feminist. The people used to bury their daughters, women got nothing out of a marriage except wrong treatment and injuries. Women were just above slaves,in society.

Islam came, and brought and end to all of that. For instance, did you know that Burqahs were worn by women Prior to islam? Allah introduced, the Hijab, which is far less demanding of women. Also, gave them inheritance rights, and right to have a say in who sould be the leader of the muslim nation at that time. Right to spend her earned money the way she wants, while a man is obliged to put all of it in the maintenance of the household.


People have gone backwards, since then, no understanding of the Qur'an and immense amount of ignorance, has made the islamic world only islamic by name. By practices, in terms of human rights, etc. and even belief in some areas they are far away from Islam.
An example would be the burqah, it is something that was practised before Islam, yet people still force it on their women- which makes me mad.

No offense, this doesn't really answer my question. Muhammad may have drastically improved conditions for women in general, but modern society demands equal rights for both sexes. If Islam still says that a woman is somehow inferior to a man, that her place is only to support her husband with her undying love and servitude, there's a problem. If the burqas are merely a cultural thing, fine. But I feel like this notion might not exist in the Quran.

Defenders of the Bible always say "well, at the TIME, it was totally rad for women", which in a modern light the treatment would be completely unethical. But a divine being, and therefore a define morality, would not be dependent on a mere era of human history. If something is right, God would act as such, if something is wrong, He would not. Women are people too.

 

[AmMortal]

No offense, this doesn't really answer my question. Muhammad may have drastically improved conditions for women in general, but modern society demands equal rights for both sexes. If Islam still says that a woman is somehow inferior to a man, that her place is only to support her husband with her undying love and servitude, there's a problem. If the burqas are merely a cultural thing, fine. But I feel like this notion might not exist in the Quran.

Defenders of the Bible always say "well, at the TIME, it was totally rad for women", which in a modern light the treatment would be completely unethical. But a divine being, and therefore a define morality, would not be dependent on a mere era of human history. If something is right, God would act as such, if something is wrong, He would not. Women are people too.

Nowhere, in the Qur'an does it deny women equal rights. "Islamic" countries, are not excersising Islamic law, and the authorities there, have there own political motives. Also, I'm not lying about the burqah part ( if that's what mean). Nowhere does it say that women are only there to support men. Remember, the majority of converts are women. Also, you'll find out how exactly "unequal" women are treated, when you actually meet a Muslim girl, toughest dames there is :lol

 

[Ydahs]

So, I'm sure this has been brought up in some of the thirty-eight pages prior, but alas, time is short, and I need to pack for my Thanksgiving trip back home.

My not-actually-informed-in-any-way view of Islam is not really tainted by all the extremist stuff, but a qualm that I have never really had denied to me fully is the apparent women's rights issues inherent in the Quran. Mind you, the Bible has its fair share of sexism, but in a world where even America's Bible-crazed society holds equality of the sexes as a serious issue, the Muslim nations seem massively backwards. (Side note: I'm a deist, by the way.)

So what's the real deal, folks? How does the Quran view women in general, and do modern Islamic teachings follow these views?

I'm not sure if AmMortal has mentioned this, but Islam actually gave women rights. Before Islam, women in Arabia were treated like animals and were basically tools being bought and sold. Once the message of Islam spread through Mecca, many of the initial converts were women becuase the message from God elevated the status of women and made them equal to men.

Now before others claim this is false and is only Islamic interpretations, I'm currently studying Islamic History and this is mentioned in Western texts written by non-Muslims

 

[Smiling Bandit]

Complete total and utter Bunk. The Islamic World today is in the third world and *no* country in the thrid world contributes anything of worth to scientific discoveries. Back in the ninth and tenth centuries it was the most dynamic and progressive. The reasons that the Islamic world fell into poverty has absolutely nothing to do with religion as should be obvious as the 'Islamic' world throughout history and today has created societies that are completely different from one another in almost every way. Wow, you are so completely pulling stuff out of thin air here. It's fine as airy speculation but please don't tell me you're actually basing your conclusions and world view off of these kinds of baseless thoughts.

So what's the reason then for falling behind so much if not for Islam itself? Look at how much Christianity stalled western development until the reforms. It certainly appears that they made these achievments despite Islam not because of it. A restricting dogma never has advantages on free research.