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[ymmv]

One of the most curious aspects of the islam is the way it promotes Arabicization. Non-Arab believers are supposed to take on Arab names, learn Arabic prayers, read Arabic, etc. It's Arab colonialism.

To quote VS Naipaul:

"Islam is in its origins an Arab religion. Everyone not an Arab who is a Muslim is a convert. Islam is not simply a matter of conscience or private belief. It makes imperial demands. A convert's world view alters. His holy places are in Arab lands; his sacred language is Arabic. His idea of history alters. He rejects his own; he becomes, whether he likes it or not, a part of Arab history. The convert has to turn away from everything that he is. The disturbance for societies is immense, and even after a thousand years can remain unresolved; the turning away has to be done again and again. People develop fantasies about who and what they are; and in the Islam of converted countries there is an element of neurosis and nihilism. These countries can be easily set on the boil."

Examples: Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan. These are all non-Arab countries that have gone through periods of Arabicization. They converted to an Arab religion, took over Arab writing and learned to loathe the pre-islamic history of their country.

Masenkame's experience is typical of what muslims in many Islamic but non-Arabic countries have to endure when they're young. They go to madrassas where they don't learn anything useful. All they're taught are lines from an ancient book in a language they don't understand. Even if they learn to understand Arabic, they're not taught to understand those lines. Learning the koran by heart is all that matters. Brainwashing at it worst.

 

[plovie]

One of the most curious aspects of the islam is the way it promotes Arabicization. Non-Arab believers are supposed to take on Arab names, learn Arabic prayers, read Arabic, etc. It's Arab colonialism.

To quote VS Naipaul:

"Islam is in its origins an Arab religion. Everyone not an Arab who is a Muslim is a convert. Islam is not simply a matter of conscience or private belief. It makes imperial demands. A convert's world view alters. His holy places are in Arab lands; his sacred language is Arabic. His idea of history alters. He rejects his own; he becomes, whether he likes it or not, a part of Arab history. The convert has to turn away from everything that he is. The disturbance for societies is immense, and even after a thousand years can remain unresolved; the turning away has to be done again and again. People develop fantasies about who and what they are; and in the Islam of converted countries there is an element of neurosis and nihilism. These countries can be easily set on the boil."

Examples: Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan. These are all non-Arab countries that have gone through periods of Arabicization. They converted to an Arab religion, took over Arab writing and learned to loathe the pre-islamic history of their country.

Masenkame's experience is typical of what muslims in many Islamic but non-Arabic countries have to endure when they're young. They go to madrassas where they don't learn anything useful. All they're taught are lines from an ancient book in a language they don't understand. Even if they learn to understand Arabic, they're not taught to understand those lines. Learning the koran by heart is all that matters. Brainwashing at it worst.

Yes, very interesting piece.

Are we really supposed to believe that God speaks Arabic?

 

[AmMortal]

One of the most curious aspects of the islam is the way it promotes Arabicization. Non-Arab believers are supposed to take on Arab names, learn Arabic prayers, read Arabic, etc. It's Arab colonialism.

To quote VS Naipaul:

"Islam is in its origins an Arab religion. Everyone not an Arab who is a Muslim is a convert. Islam is not simply a matter of conscience or private belief. It makes imperial demands. A convert's world view alters. His holy places are in Arab lands; his sacred language is Arabic. His idea of history alters. He rejects his own; he becomes, whether he likes it or not, a part of Arab history. The convert has to turn away from everything that he is. The disturbance for societies is immense, and even after a thousand years can remain unresolved; the turning away has to be done again and again. People develop fantasies about who and what they are; and in the Islam of converted countries there is an element of neurosis and nihilism. These countries can be easily set on the boil."

Examples: Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan. These are all non-Arab countries that have gone through periods of Arabicization. They converted to an Arab religion, took over Arab writing and learned to loathe the pre-islamic history of their country.

Masenkame's experience is typical of what muslims in many Islamic but non-Arabic countries have to endure when they're young. They go to madrassas where they don't learn anything useful. All they're taught are lines from an ancient book in a language they don't understand. Even if they learn to understand Arabic, they're not taught to understand those lines. Learning the koran by heart is all that matters. Brainwashing at it worst.

You see, this is what I always thought was the reason for many people, who aren't muslim, have a hard time comprimising with. Some people, simply just have their own assumptions, and can't come to terms with an a religion from arabia ( only a few hundred miles away from Judah), even though this religion, changed, what at that time was the worst place to live in, in terms of social, and humanitarian aspects. To a place where knowledge and prosperity flourished. All due to one arab man, who could neither read nor write.


There is no compulsion on name change, and they don't have to be arabic. The places, a muslim considers holy, are not only arabic. Jerusalem, is holy, and it was there, that the first house of God was established. Arabic is not sacred at all, Qur'an is sacred, and the arabic today, is nowhere near it. Never does anyone turn away from what they are, when they revert to Islam, you keep your history and your language and your identity. It is only in Islam that everyone's background, and differernt cultures is considered equal, and a mercy from Allah.

Those countries mentioned are only 4 of the numerous established Muslim countries. No one forces them to do this.


Qur'anic schools ( as Madrassa means school in arabic), in 3rd world and developing countries, like Pakistan, Afghanistan etc. Have a deficiency in quality of education, and teach the pupils, only memorization, forgetting the fact that the meaning is the most important. Sadly, due to this, extremism has established itself like a disease in their minds.

As you see Islam, does not endorse any of these things, yet because of the current situation of world. It may seem like it does.

Yes, very interesting piece.

Are we really supposed to believe that God speaks Arabic?

Wow...

 

[Prine]

:lol :lol :lol

You got any more nuggets of wisdom?

Anyone here that speaks more than english knows you cannot do a straight conversion, just a generalisation of the meaning. The impact is often lost, id rather learn my religion in its purist form. But no! Thats brainwashing! You people know how to spin i give you that.

Excuse me while i play Mass Effect with my Arab ideals, gotta save.. i mean conquer the galaxy, just like Islam :lol

 

[ymmv]

Yes, very interesting piece.

Are we really supposed to believe that God speaks Arabic?

That's why it's so insane when black Americans like Malcolm X converted to islam as a protest to Christianity, the symbol of white oppression/supremacy/colonialism. They didn't realize their new religion was actually a symbol of Arab oppression/supremacy/colonialism. Arabs were slave traders long before westerners entered this horrid trade. They kept at it far longer than westerners too. Slavery was abolished in the middle east only in the 1960ies, 100 years after the abolition of slavery in the US. Even today Arabs are known for their racism against blacks. That's why the Arab League don't want any interference in Sudan where fellow Arabs practice genocide against black Sudanese.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

this thread took a turn but this thread is my new home on GAF so I hope it will stay open for a while longer



ah I had a long day today I learned a lot. The old guy that was teaching me prays really became human today. I found it strange that while walking with him he through his cup in the parking lot of the mosque and here I am spending two days cleaning all the clutter and mess in my house trying to have a clean home where I can peacefully pray but the old man threw his cup in the parking lot of the mosque of all places. So I spent 5 hours at the mosque never going home and he told me my brain must be different he asked me did I do well in school? When I ask why. he said "Because you have been reciting this for 5 hours and still don't have it!" sheesh... I just looked at him and said I told you yesterday I was slow at getting this... Anyway later he told me my name was haram and offered me I name which I promptly rejected. I spoke the the Iman about my name he said my first name was okay but my second name was Islamic in nature so he offered me a choice to use my last name which was fine by my since I like using my last name anyway.

still I learned today that people are very human you have to take the good with the bad.

Just hating something overall because one member or a small group out of a whole had done evil does not mean you judge the whole as bad. I think it really speaks about a person's heart when they can make silly ignorant statements about Islam and Allah.

I am having a lot of fun learning and I will take things at my own pace although I found the old guy to be really helpful I won't take his help next time since I need to be patient with myself. I want to please Allah not another human being who has just as much flaws as I do.

So this is the bottom line PEOPLE ARE HUMAN! You cannot Judge ISLAM because of human weaknesses.

Also I found that I love the Arabic Qu'ran - after years of saying that I hate the Kings James Version of the Bible not being in "Real English" I can see the value of what has been lost in translation after translation in the Bible... who really knows what the truth is after all that.

Did someone ask what language does God speak? Would that not be uhmm ALL OF THEM

 

[plovie]

Did someone ask what language does God speak? Would that not be uhmm ALL OF THEM

I was replying to ymmv's post about Islam being a form of Arab imperialism; I meant that it is strange to believe that Arabic is the preferred language of God. The Quran is believed to be the perfect word of God, is it not? It is not a translation; it is a transcript of the exact words dictated to Muhammad by God.

This implies a special status for the Arabic language: the perfect word of God is Arabic. That is why it is believed that translating it makes the Quran imperfect.

This, to me, is absurd. Words are an imperfect means of communication, as they will always have to be interpreted, and every interpretation can interpreted even further. If God wanted to be perfectly clear, he would not dictate his perfect scripture in any language at all, much less an obscure one that is not even spoken today in its original form. If God wanted to express himself perfectly without leaving any room for misunderstanding he would have to communicate telepathically with us. Even then, I'm not sure if this is logically possible.

There's nothing special about classical Arabic. It can be translated into English and any number of other languages, just like every other language.

 

[Feep]

:lol :lol :lol

You got any more nuggets of wisdom?

Anyone here that speaks more than english knows you cannot do a straight conversion, just a generalisation of the meaning. The impact is often lost, id rather learn my religion in its purist form. But no! Thats brainwashing! You people know how to spin i give you that.

Excuse me while i play Mass Effect with my Arab ideals, gotta save.. i mean conquer the galaxy, just like Islam :lol

Studies have shown that unless a child is raised from a very young age to be multilingual, the person will automatically translate from the learned language into the first language in their mind. What you're doing is no different from what translators do, except they're probably much better at understanding the nuances of the Arabic language than you are, so their version is more accurate.

In any case, words are the medium of understanding. By restricting the words to a language that few people in non-Arabic nations understand, you limit the reach and power of those words. The whole translation/purity argument is a bit of a farce anyway, a war of verbosity to distract from some truly disturbing facets of "Holy Books" that go against our modern ideals and morals. Masenkame's post was extremely enlightening, and comes from someone with first-hand experiences. Read it.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I was replying to ymmv's post about Islam being a form of Arab imperialism; I meant that it is strange to believe that Arabic is the preferred language of God. The Quran is believed to be the perfect word of God, is it not? It is not a translation; it is a transcript of the exact words dictated to Muhammad by God.

This implies a special status for the Arabic language: the perfect word of God is Arabic. That is why it is believed that translating it makes the Quran imperfect.

This, to me, is absurd. Words are an imperfect means of communication, as they will always have to be interpreted, and every interpretation can interpreted even further. If God wanted to be perfectly clear, he would not dictate his perfect scripture in any language at all, much less an obscure one that is not even spoken today in its original form. If God wanted to express himself perfectly without leaving any room for misunderstanding he would have to communicate telepathically with us. Even then, I'm not sure if this is logically possible.

I don't think for a believer that Arabic is perfect. A believer would say GOD's choice of words or language is Perfect. If GOD choose Chinese to give to his messenger I doubt believers would want it translated.

You say words are imperfect I would say this is false... Only the human mind is imperfect if you had a perfect mind then you would have perfect words to express that mind.

GOD is Perfect so his words are perfect but the human mind is still imperfect that is the only reason that humans can find fault with GOD's words since they do not have a perfect mind to understand perfect words.

It is a strange way of thinking that we can be GOD. We can only understand what GOD has allowed us to... I am not talking of only Islam I mean if GOD wanted Jews to understand he would have given them this ability. If he wanted to whipe out my confusion when I was a Christian he had all the power to do so. My imperfect mind is limited. The Quran has a challenge to anyone who wishes to write just one chapter can your perfect mind accomplish this?

the thing is it all comes down to what you believe you cannot convince a believer that his GOD is imperfect that would be a waste of time. I really do not understand why people even try.

You cannot take away from me what is mine.

again it is not the language that is perfect or holy or divine... it is the GOD behind the words.

an Arab will always have pride in his native tongue just as an American will say US English is better than UK English... does not mean one is perfect or holy or divine over the other.

As a Believer I must submit to GOD's choice simple as that... and guess what non-believers do not have to submit to anything life is so simple you know

 

[Masenkame]

Yeah, the language aspect is very important, as a bunch of the posters have hit upon the point of Arab colonialism. The Arabic language is a part of this element, as Islam teaches that Arabic is the language of God. It is the perfect language that Muslims must learn in order to be true to their faith. It's a point stressed by both the Qur'an, and the prophet through Hadith.

The language assimilates converts into the culture and beliefs of Islam. Converts to Islam tend to be very willing to follow their new religion in the best possible manner they can, so that is why you see these name changes and very rapid lifestyle changes. This same point can be made about converts to other religions of course, but Islam tends to defy convention here. I think it's partly due to the "purity" of the religion. Judaism and Christianity have gone through their reformations and the Enlightenment to become the generally modern religions they are nowadays. Islam however has not. Though fundamentalism will always rear its head in many religions, it is especially worrying in Islam. Islam is relatively unchanged from Mohammad's days, though there was uncertainty following Muhammad's death for a period of about three hundred years as the Qur'an and Hadith were being finalized. Sunni and Shia believe mostly similar things, though the matter of bloodline and inheritance have screwed them over for over 1400 years. Over this period the separate sects have developed their own rituals and culture, but are still very similar. And I have to say, Sufi Muslims tend be very well-grounded and reasonable folks. I would not mind at all of most Muslims started following Sufi ideals instead of Sunni/Shia. Though I'd rather most religious folks become reasoned secularists, but that's a pipe dream.

The Qur'an is believed to have been revealed to Muhammad during an over two decade long time frame, in Arabic. The angel Gabriel is said to have done this, with the first commands from God though Gabriel is "Iqra", translated as "Read", or "recite". Reading the Qur'an in Arabic is very important, because Islam teaches the original meaning of the Qur'an is distorted if translated. How very nice of Muhammad and his followers to throw that little clause in! But I got to say, how many translations do you have to do before you call a spade a spade?!

I don't know if Muhammad really believed his religion would conquer the world, but he and his followers tried the best they can. This part of the Arab colonialism talk is important as it's deeply rooted within the faith. Make no mistake about it, Islam states it will conquer this world. Jesus returns to defeat the Dajjal(anti-Christ, false prophet), and all will be peaceful as the whole world will be Muslim. Even I, as a moderate/liberal Muslim at the time, deeply believed in this. It's partly why there are so many Muslims extremists. Terrorism is a deeply complicated piece of work to understand, though the religion part does shed light on some of the reasons for it.

 

[Feep]

The thing is it all comes down to what you believe you cannot convince a believer that his GOD is imperfect that would be a waste of time. I really do not understand why people even try.

This is ridiculous. Of course you can.

Admittedly, most religious faith is ingrained in a person from a very young age, and is difficult to uproot. People inherently cling to that which is familiar and simple, and will often not question anything about their religion, even if it seemingly goes against secular knowledge or logic.

But that doesn't mean that everyone is like this. To point out the logical fallacies and atrocities of Christianity or Islam is often breath wasted, but occasionally, someone might begin to think, to reason, and to understand that their dogmatic faith is nothing but a ball and chain, a safeguard against the mind that his or her god supposedly gave them.

You changed, didn't you, S and C? If Islam is making you happy, great. But one day, you might begin to realize that this happiness is false, is dangerous, is fleeting, and your continued desires for answers is left unsatiated by these binding tenets. You can choose: bliss in ignorance, or risk in truth. Most cannot handle the latter.

 

[AmMortal]

That's why it's so insane when black Americans like Malcolm X converted to islam as a protest to Christianity, the symbol of white oppression/supremacy/colonialism. They didn't realize their new religion was actually a symbol of Arab oppression/supremacy/colonialism. Arabs were slave traders long before westerners entered this horrid trade. They kept at it far longer than westerners too. Slavery was abolished in the middle east only in the 1960ies, 100 years after the abolition of slavery in the US. Even today Arabs are known for their racism against blacks. That's why the Arab League don't want any interference in Sudan where fellow Arabs practice genocide against black Sudanese.

I read arab, arab, arab.

There's christian arabs, jewish arabs. etc. In your view, you confuse arab with Islam. The greatest enemies to Islam were among the arabs. Islam is the most liberating religion on the face of this planet.

Also, slavery was normal throughout the world, it was only related to race, when the westerners started to engage in it. Prior to that, EVERYONE without a tribe, or a nation to protect it, became slaves.


The prophet freed 32.000 slaves estimate BY HIMSELF.

The first one, he freed, he ADOPTED.

While slavery was prevalent througout the whole world, Islam tried comprimise, some aspects of slavery,by making it very hard, for even those who owned slaves, to continue to do so.

Islam, forces the people to give them, the same clothes the slave owner wears, also the same place to sleep, and eat the same food. This isn't slavery, this is a free ride :lol


"When I was beating my servant, I heard a voice behind me (saying): Abu Mas'ud, bear in mind Allah has more dominance over you than you have upon him. I turned and (found him) to be Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I said: Allah's Messenger, I set him free for the sake of Allah. Thereupon he said: Had you not done that, (the gates of) Hell would have opened for you, or the fire would have burnt you (Authenticated by Muslim)

 

[Nocebo]

"When I was beating my servant, I heard a voice behind me (saying): Abu Mas'ud, bear in mind Allah has more dominance over you than you have upon him. I turned and (found him) to be Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I said: Allah's Messenger, I set him free for the sake of Allah. Thereupon he said: Had you not done that, (the gates of) Hell would have opened for you, or the fire would have burnt you (Authenticated by Muslim)

You believe this is true? That the gates of hell would have openend there and then if he hadn't set his slave free? Also I think it's a little twisted that this person received no punishment for his mistreatment of another human being. It's ok to beat someone aslong as you let them go afterward (read: if they're able to walk away afterwards), apparently.

While slavery was prevalent througout the whole world, Islam tried comprimise, some aspects of slavery,by making it very hard, for even those who owned slaves, to continue to do so.

Islam, forces the people to give them, the same clothes the slave owner wears, also the same place to sleep, and eat the same food. This isn't slavery, this is a free ride

You'd think having to go to hell would be reason enough for most faithful to quit slavery cold turkey. Or is it that beating your slaves is considered naughty and that you go to hell for that? This is all highly confusing.

 

[AmMortal]

You believe this is true? That the gates of hell would have openend there and then if he hadn't set his slave free? Also I think it's a little twisted that this person received no punishment for his mistreatment of another human being. It's ok to beat someone aslong as you let them go afterward (read: if they're able to walk away afterwards), apparently.

You'd think having to go to hell would be reason enough for most faithful to quit slavery cold turkey. Or is it that beating your slaves is considered naughty and that you go to hell for that? This is all highly confusing.

Firstly, the gates of hell aren't going to literally open for you here on earth. It means that he would have ensured himself hellfire, if he continued. There is an issue, of repentance and that after that, there is no punishment. Him freeing his slave was his repentance.


You should have really read through the first 2/3 of my post. Since none of this would be an issue, had you read through it thoroughly.

 

[Earthstrike]

AmMortal, You said this early on in the thread and have yet to respond.

Uhm, what he said wasn't a direct quote from the Qur'an, unless he specify and quote, and elaborate, the Arabic in the Qur'an. There is no subject of debate.


2nd, I can understand your stance on religion. However, it occurs to me that many atheists, at least here on gaf, do not know sufficient about all religion, yet they deem all religion to be equally bad.

Every single religion on this earth is oppressive, to a certain group of people. Except Islam. When people like the once on gaf, do extensive research and dwell in the depths of the Qur'an and its history. You will see why The Prophet Muhammad, was the most influential human being known to man.

Many people have taken the time to read and point out what would appear to be an example of hypocrisy. I don't see how its rational for people in this thread to simultaneously claim that those atheists declaring religion universally bad are ignorant, but then claiming themselves that all beliefs except Islam are oppressive, or turning a blind eye to it.
Could you explain that to me?

 

[Althane]

I would also like you to say how Christianity is oppressive, and I mean the real stuff, with the whole Love and Peace thing Jesus had. Not the Catholic bull, nor the Protestant crap.

The institutions of the religion are not the religion itself. I think you've argued that before.

The institutions of the religion are also usually what's repressive about the religion.

Put two and two together....

Oh, and I don't think I've seen a Buddhist monk be repressive to anyone lately. Nice chaps, actually.

 

[ymmv]

I read arab, arab, arab.

There's christian arabs, jewish arabs. etc. In your view, you confuse arab with Islam. The greatest enemies to Islam were among the arabs. Islam is the most liberating religion on the face of this planet.

Also, slavery was normal throughout the world, it was only related to race, when the westerners started to engage in it. Prior to that, EVERYONE without a tribe, or a nation to protect it, became slaves.


The prophet freed 32.000 slaves estimate BY HIMSELF.

The first one, he freed, he ADOPTED.

While slavery was prevalent througout the whole world, Islam tried comprimise, some aspects of slavery,by making it very hard, for even those who owned slaves, to continue to do so.

Islam, forces the people to give them, the same clothes the slave owner wears, also the same place to sleep, and eat the same food. This isn't slavery, this is a free ride :lol


"When I was beating my servant, I heard a voice behind me (saying): Abu Mas'ud, bear in mind Allah has more dominance over you than you have upon him. I turned and (found him) to be Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I said: Allah's Messenger, I set him free for the sake of Allah. Thereupon he said: Had you not done that, (the gates of) Hell would have opened for you, or the fire would have burnt you (Authenticated by Muslim)

You're conveniently brushing over the fact that the founder of Islam kept slaves, that the Koran and sharia justify and accomodate slavery by setting judicial rules. Slavery is accepted in the koran. Through his conquests Mohammed himself turned captives into slaves:

33:50 - "Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty."

Another interesting quote:

According to Ibn Qayyim Al-Jawziyya, Muhammad "had many male and female slaves. He used to buy and sell them, but he purchased more than he sold, especially after God empowered him by His message, as well as after his immigration from Mecca. He once sold one black slave for two. His name was Jacob al-Mudbir. His purchases of slaves were more. He was used to renting out and hiring many slaves, but he hired more slaves than he rented out". The names and basic biographical details of some notable among those slaves are disclosed in early Islamic literature. Many additionally are themselves historical sources cited as narrators of hadith.

These are just one of many examples of Mohammed, the prophet of Islam, turning out to be nothing more than a ruthless criminal.

Every single religion on this earth is oppressive, to a certain group of people. Except Islam

Boy, it takes guts to write that with a straight face. Do you really think no one knows about the dhimmi status that was accorded to non-believers in islamic countries?

 

[AmMortal]

AmMortal, You said this early on in the thread and have yet to respond.



Many people have taken the time to read and point out what would appear to be an example of hypocrisy. I don't see how its rational for people in this thread to simultaneously claim that those atheists declaring religion universally bad are ignorant, but then claiming themselves that all beliefs except Islam are oppressive, or turning a blind eye to it.
Could you explain that to me?

Simple, in Islam, we have managed to seperate it from other religions. By the following.

Firstly, there was only Islam, when ever God revealed anything, it was in order that the people might find peace, through submission to His will. So in an essence, what we mean is that for instance Christianity, was not christianity, at first, it was a teaching of Submission to God ( the lords prayer in christianity : Thy Kingdom come, Your will be done here on earth, just as it is in heaven". Throughout time, people change it from it's pure form to suit the needs or aristocratic incentives, ( in this case, making a trinity of one God, and abolishing the laws that Jesus preached and practiced, in order to suit Constantine's motives) or simply just forget, due to no true attachment of to the faith. So it ends up being oppressive to people, as it doesn't make sense, at all when they start going through the bible thoroughly, they deemed it all bull, and seperate from any belief in God.

Another example would be how, in hinduism, people are seperated into castes. Buddism is oppressive, to it's monks, denying them their rights as a human being etc.

So there is different kinds of oppression.But it is there nonetheless

In Islam, we are commanded to understand and put time into getting a clear view of other religions. Allah does not want blind faith. The Qur'an calls for frequent Dikr' meaning , Thinkin, Pondering, Remembering, Reflecting. Allah also says that no one really has faith " ila awlul albab", meaning "except the people of knowledge". So we are never turning a blind eye to other religions.

Duck Amuck and Smiles and Cries, are physical evidence of this. I mean, just ask Duck Amuck, how many religions he went through, and understood, before he decided to see the truth in Islam.

 

[Earthstrike]

Simple, in Islam, we have managed to seperate it from other religions. By the following.

Firstly, there was only Islam, when ever God revealed anything, it was in order that the people might find peace, through submission to His will. So in an essence, what we mean is that for instance Christianity, was not christianity, at first, it was a teaching of Submission to God ( the lords prayer in christianity : Thy Kingdom come, Your will be done here on earth, just as it is in heaven". Throughout time, people change it from it's pure form to suit the needs or aristocratic incentives, ( in this case, making a trinity of one God, and abolishing the laws that Jesus preached and practiced, in order to suit Constantine's motives) or simply just forget, due to no true attachment of to the faith. So it ends up being oppressive to people, as it doesn't make sense, at all when they start going through the bible thoroughly, they deemed it all bull, and seperate from any belief in God.

Another example would be how, in hinduism, people are seperated into castes. Buddism is oppressive, to it's monks, denying them their rights as a human being etc.

So there is different kinds of oppression.But it is there nonetheless

In Islam, we are commanded to understand and put time into getting a clear view of other religions. Allah does not want blind faith. The Qur'an calls for frequent Dikr' meaning , Thinkin, Pondering, Remembering, Reflecting. Allah also says that no one really has faith " ila awlul albab", meaning "except the people of knowledge". So we are never turning a blind eye to other religions.

Duck Amuck and Smiles and Cries, are physical evidence of this. I mean, just ask Duck Amuck, how many religions he went through, and understood, before he decided to see the truth in Islam.

The buddhism you are referring to is not real buddhism. You've simply misinterpreted it that same way there exists people that misinterpret Islam. The hinduism you're referring to is simply a bad interpretation of hinduism. You've simply misinterpreted it the same way people misinterpret Islam.

And even then, to say all religions are oppresive infers education on all religions, not just the major ones. You're honestly saying you're done that research on ALL the world's religions?

What about Confucism? Zoroastrianism? Ba'hai?

 

[Althane]

Opression, when accepted by a person, is not oppression at all.

A Buddhist monk who lives life that way because he wants to is truly not being oppressed.

A woman, stoned for showing a bit of skin, or because she was raped, on the other hand...

Now, you can talk about the culture of those places all you want, but you still have to admit that they're using an interpretation of your religion to justify themselves.

(Are there even enough Zoroastians to truly "oppress" anyone? Really?)

Now, one of the things I like a lot about Christianity is the statement "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". In short "You've fucked up, you're going to fuck up, and you probably are fucking up. Don't sweat about it too much".

Does Islam have a phrase like that?

 

[AmMortal]

The buddhism you are referring to is not real buddhism. You've simply misinterpreted it that same way there exists people that misinterpret Islam. The hinduism you're referring to is simply a bad interpretation of hinduism. You've simply misinterpreted it the same way people misinterpret Islam.

And even then, to say all religions are oppresive infers education on all religions, not just the major ones. You're honestly saying you're done that research on ALL the world's religions?

What about Confucism? Zoroastrianism? Ba'hai?

Well, I never said I did that myself, although I'm trying my best, and putting some time into that. I said people like Duck Amuck are evidence.


As for that hinduism part. Its been something that was there, enforced for century after century. Also for the buddism part, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Buddist encouraged to be as pacifist as possible? Also, not allowed to eat meat, and have wives?

 

[AmMortal]

Opression, when accepted by a person, is not oppression at all.

A Buddhist monk who lives life that way because he wants to is truly not being oppressed.

A woman, stoned for showing a bit of skin, or because she was raped, on the other hand...

Now, you can talk about the culture of those places all you want, but you still have to admit that they're using an interpretation of your religion to justify themselves.

(Are there even enough Zoroastians to truly "oppress" anyone? Really?)

Now, one of the things I like a lot about Christianity is the statement "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". In short "You've fucked up, you're going to fuck up, and you probably are fucking up. Don't sweat about it too much".

Does Islam have a phrase like that?

Every son of Adam is a sinner, but the best of sinners are the ones that turn to God,repent and ask for forgiveness.

Also, I agree, and support your earlier statement. But it's like saying " Jesus said he who has not sinned cast the first stone" And then Stoning the poor woman.

The total opposite. because the rapist should have his head decapitated, in Islamic sharia.

 

[Althane]

Every son of Adam is a sinner, but the best of sinners are the ones that turn to God,repent and ask for forgiveness.

Sounds about right.


Also, Buddhist monks are, y'know, allowed to leave. They're there by choice, not being oppressed because they don't want to be. Besides, y'know what, if they really do find truths of life living like that, can we really blame them?

You've yet to show me how Buddhism is oppressive, all you've shown me is rules that they're encouraged to follow.

Y'know, like not eating pork. By your argument there, Islam is being oppressive.

(yes, I can't live without my bacon, what of it?)

 

[AmMortal]

Sounds about right.


Also, Buddhist monks are, y'know, allowed to leave. They're there by choice, not being oppressed because they don't want to be. Besides, y'know what, if they really do find truths of life living like that, can we really blame them?

You've yet to show me how Buddhism is oppressive, all you've shown me is rules that they're encouraged to follow.

Y'know, like not eating pork. By your argument there, Islam is being oppressive.

(yes, I can't live without my bacon, what of it?)

:lol

Dude, there is no religion that forces people to stay. The way I meant it was, that as a human being, there are certain things your physical body needs, like meat and a wife. btw that reminds me, I've never said female monks, do they exist? If not, why not?

Oh, and pork is just bad for you man:lol

 

[Zapages]

Guys check these out:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7758651.stm

and

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/08/6000-muslim-clerics-endor_n_142415.html

 

[AmMortal]

Guys check these out:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7758651.stm

and

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/08/6000-muslim-clerics-endor_n_142415.html

Now that's what the hell I'm talking about.

 

[Zapages]

Now that's what the hell I'm talking about.

Definitely good news!!!

 

[Instigator]

Oh, and pork is just bad for you man:lol

You mean delicious.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Guys check these out:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7758651.stm

and

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/08/6000-muslim-clerics-endor_n_142415.html

These need to be adopted for the whole muslim world not just India. This is a great start

 

[Althane]

:lol

Dude, there is no religion that forces people to stay. The way I meant it was, that as a human being, there are certain things your physical body needs, like meat and a wife. btw that reminds me, I've never said female monks, do they exist? If not, why not?

Oh, and pork is just bad for you man:lol

You can live without them. Therefore, you do not need them. (You can obtain protein in different foods, and sexual release is not a necessity to life. Well. You know what I mean.)

As for female monks, I don't know. I'll do some looking around.

And pork is not bad for you. As with all things, moderation and care serves you well.

BACON, on the other hand, is awesome. And mostly bad for you.

Edit:

Can someone tell me the significance of this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7758651.stm

What is the importance in Islam of being buried in the right place? Is it just an honor thing, or is it an actual sin to not be buried with other Muslims?

 

[AmMortal]

You can live without them. Therefore, you do not need them. (You can obtain protein in different foods, and sexual release is not a necessity to life. Well. You know what I mean.)

As for female monks, I don't know. I'll do some looking around.

And pork is not bad for you. As with all things, moderation and care serves you well.

BACON, on the other hand, is awesome. And mostly bad for you.

:lol

EDIT:
A muslim can be buried anywhere, as far as I know.

But these people aren't considered Muslims, so they're not allowed to be buried in an Islamic way, between Muslims.

 

[Althane]

So basically they're dooming these guys? Interesting.

Although, I'm curious. How can a person sin after they are dead and their soul has left the body? (I'm assuming that the Christian view and the Muslim view of death are the same... I probably am wrong here).

Posthumous sins just don't really make sense.

Edit: Going into class. I'll check back on this later. It has interested me.

 

[AmMortal]

So basically they're dooming these guys? Interesting.

Although, I'm curious. How can a person sin after they are dead and their soul has left the body? (I'm assuming that the Christian view and the Muslim view of death are the same... I probably am wrong here).

Posthumous sins just don't really make sense.

Edit: Going into class. I'll check back on this later. It has interested me.

I hope you read my edit, because I misunderstood your previous post.

EDIT:
A muslim can be buried anywhere, as far as I know.

But these people aren't considered Muslims, so they're not allowed to be buried in an Islamic way, between Muslims.

You can't sin after you're dead

 

[Smiles and Cries]

and pork in "Turkey Bacon" ?



I am so sleepy today, I wanted to ask a question:

since prayers in Islam are so different from Christian prayers when do you ask God for things like health or desires?

when and how to ask for forgiveness?

I pray now with saying "Subhan-Allah" (3x) but I still do not feel spiritually connected since my mind it telling me I am doing the prayer for dummies

What is the phrase needed to recite before reading the Qu'ran?
Do I need to do the Wudu before I touch a Quran?

thanks

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I hope you read my edit, because I misunderstood your previous post.


You can't sin after you're dead

but you can continue to be rewarded I heard that this weekend at the mosque. If you have children that pray for you and if your teaching are remembered by others

I am still not clear about the rewards thing no one has explained it to me as of yet. All I understand as of now there are 7 Heavens(?) and rewards are like points that get you to a higher ranking to a higher heaven (?)

 

[AmMortal]

and pork in "Turkey Bacon" ?



I am so sleepy today, I wanted to ask a question:

since prayers in Islam are so different from Christian prayers when do you ask God for things like health or desires?

when and how to ask for forgiveness?

I pray now with saying "Subhan-Allah" (3x) but I still do not feel spiritually connected since my mind it telling me I am doing the prayer for dummies

What is the phrase needed to recite before reading the Qu'ran?
Do I need to do the Wudu before I touch a Quran?

thanks

1. Anytime, Ask it anytime you please. Infact, when you learn proper prayer, you will see that within the prayer, and /or after it is an obligation to ask.

2. I suggest, you just start reading through the Qur'an, and trying to memerize, parts that have a special affect on you, so that if you feel bored, you can try and remember those. Remember, Allah says " Remember Me, I will Remember you.."

3. A'udu bilahi min al shaytani-rajim
I seek refuge and comfort in Allah, from Satan the accursed.

 

[Instigator]

BACON, on the other hand, is awesome. And mostly bad for you.

Someone who has lived his whole life without sampling the juicy goodiness of bacon has seriously missed out on the good stuff this world has to offer.

 

[AmMortal]

but you can continue to be rewarded I heard that this weekend at the mosque. If you have children that pray for you and if your teaching are remembered by others

I am still not clear about the rewards thing no one has explained it to me as of yet. All I understand as of now there are 7 Heavens(?) and rewards are like points that get you to a higher ranking to a higher heaven (?)

yes, sins stop, but through the Mercy of Allah, some good deeds continue.

7 heavens ( Universes and or dimensions, not sure).

1. is this universe, followed by the 2,3,4,5,6,

the Seventh is Paradise.

Paradise has 8 General ranks.

Inculding,Jannatul Ad = Jannah of Eternity, and Jannat al-Firdaws is The best of all. Don't know them off the top of my head, but there are more. Each of these has hundreds if not thousand different levels of rank with in it.

Sort of like how a galaxy has, different planets, one bigger then the other.

The prophet said that groups of the people of paradise, will see the dwellings of the ones better then them, as we see the stars today, indicating that planets created by Allah are paradises suited for them.


The delights of Paradise surpass the imagination and defy description. They are like nothing known to the people of this world; no matter how advanced we may become, what we achieve is as nothing in comparison to it.

Above it is the Throne of God ( not a literal throne, but a symbol of His Dominionship).

 

[Smiles and Cries]

thanks AmMortal

 

[Althane]

Hum, thanks for clearing that up AmMortal.

Missed the edit.

Still, doesn't Islam look down upon people who leave the religion, and god help you if you leave and speak out about it? From what I've heard, it doesn't treat apostates very well.

Other religions basically ignore you beyond telling you that that's not the decision you want to make for a better afterlife.

(both sides of the arena, please answer?)

 

[AmMortal]

Hum, thanks for clearing that up AmMortal.

Missed the edit.

Still, doesn't Islam look down upon people who leave the religion, and god help you if you leave and speak out about it? From what I've heard, it doesn't treat apostates very well.

Other religions basically ignore you beyond telling you that that's not the decision you want to make for a better afterlife.

(both sides of the arena, please answer?)

Well apostasy, has never been an issue with the prophet himself. Also, the Qur'an states :

“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256]


Very clear, as to how religion is to be treated.
Now, that still doesn't stop some people from making different claims.

This verse shouldn't even be questioned, period. But people these days follow their own desires.


There is however, an issue with blasphemy, and saying the wrong things of either Allah, or any of His messengers, people who continue to do so, unless they cease, should not be offered protection or any form of support or agreement from whatever is coming to them.

 

[AmMortal]

Al fatiha.

Please help me.

what are all the things I should memorize when doing prayer? Like I said, I have memorized theses:

1. Subhanakallahume, wa bihamdika, wa tabarakasmuka, wa ta'ala jaduka, wa la ilaha ghairuka.

2. Aoozu billiahi meneshthaitan nirajem.

3. Bismillah hirahman irahim.

4. Allahu Akbar.

Where and when do I say Al fatiha and what else do I have to know? THANKS.

Take out the Allahu Akbar, at end, put it before anything else. from step 1 on. start reciting Al-Fatiha from there on.

When you finish ( as the brothers might have told you) you can recited everything you want from the Qur'an. Everything you like. Try to memorize, surah Ikhlas( Sincerity):
Qul- Hu Allahu Ahad-
Allahu Samad-
Lam ya Lid wa lam yu lad-
wa lam yakun-
- lahu kufu'an ahad

And when you finish, say Allahu Akbar.And go on from there ( as the brothers might have taught you).

 

[dmshaposv]

Al fatiha.

Please help me.

what are all the things I should memorize when doing prayer? Like I said, I have memorized theses:

1. Subhanakallahume, wa bihamdika, wa tabarakasmuka, wa ta'ala jaduka, wa la ilaha ghairuka.

2. Aoozu billiahi meneshthaitan nirajem.

3. Bismillah hirahman irahim.

4. Allahu Akbar.

Where and when do I say Al fatiha and what else do I have to know? THANKS.

You say the fatiha between step 3 and 4.

After step 3 you continue with "malik-e-umadin..." and say the complete verse for al fatiha followed by "Ameen" and then you go for step 4 and bow down (for subhan-rabe-allah-llah)


Edit: Damn, beatem by AmMortal. I guess his method is more clear.

 

[AmMortal]

You say the fatiha between step 3 and 4.

After step 3 you continue with "malik-e-umadin..." and say the complete verse for al fatiha followed by "Ameen" and then you go for step 4 and bow down (for subhan-rabe-allah-llah)

I think he meant,what surah to recite after al-fatiha.

EDIT:

Oh :lol

 

[pizzaguysrevenge]

Someone who has lived his whole life without sampling the juicy goodiness of bacon has seriously missed out on the good stuff this world has to offer.

I went the first 19 years of my life without ever trying prosciutto.

What a waste of 19 years.

 

[dmshaposv]

Well I suggest learning some easy surahs that are at the end of the 30th parah, they are short and easy to memorize.

Ikhlas and maybe the 4 kuls.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

should I stay home from the mosque until I learn Al Fatiha and some other surahs?

The brothers love to start me off to recite and repeat after them but each one pronounces things different from the next. I am getting so overwhelmed and confused.

I'm thinking of doing this on my own but they wont leave me in peace

Only DUCK knows my pain

 

[cashman]

:lol

Dude, there is no religion that forces people to stay. The way I meant it was, that as a human being, there are certain things your physical body needs, like meat and a wife. btw that reminds me, I've never said female monks, do they exist? If not, why not?

Oh, and pork is just bad for you man:lol

speaking of females, in Islam women aren't allowed to pray at the same time and in the same room as men. That's kind of oppressive.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Al fatiha.

Please help me.

what are all the things I should memorize when doing prayer? Like I said, I have memorized theses:

1. Subhanakallahume, wa bihamdika, wa tabarakasmuka, wa ta'ala jaduka, wa la ilaha ghairuka.

2. Aoozu billiahi meneshthaitan nirajem.

3. Bismillah hirahman irahim.

4. Allahu Akbar.

Where and when do I say Al fatiha and what else do I have to know? THANKS.

the way you spelled the words sounds like the way to correctly say them do you know where I can get the full version with this type of spelling I've seen 5 diffent ways to spell them so far. I want to read them as you wrote them here.

as for doing it on my own I do not think it is bad. I will ask Allah for guidance but I really need to do this on my own or these guys will have me pulling my hair out and never learning anything. Some of them really think this is a piece of cake.

I would like to give them 7 long praises in Japanese and tell them they have an hour to recite it and memorize it perfectly and see how they do.

I'm staying home for a while before I burn myself out. I'm just starting to really love my new life I don't want someone do drive me away.

 

[victreeb3l]

speaking of females, in Islam women aren't allowed to pray at the same time and in the same room as men. That's kind of oppressive.

what? ive never heard about that.