Authentic Compilations of Hadith:
DSWii60 said:
References, of course, would be nice.
Did you really expect any less from someone as sadistic as I?!
A major difference between Shias and Sunnis which you fail to understand is the position on hadith. Whilst Sunnis have books that are regarded as "sahih" (all hadith contained in them are correct), Shias have no such books. You yourself said Sahih Bukhari was compiled a 100 years after the death of the Prophet so how can you claim that there is no chance an incorrect hadith might have slipped in there. I, on the other hand, do not claim Al-Kafi is perfect because it was compiled by a man not by Allah. Only the Quran is perfect.
If only I had a dirham every time I heard this argument regurgitated. Let me give you a brief history lesson of Sunni hadith compilation. Inshallah it will help you avoid making statements like these again.
What you are not aware of is that there are several "Saheeh" books written by Sunni scholars. For example, Saheeh Ibn Hibban and Saheeh Ibn Khuzaima. However, the reason that you don't hear of their books too often is because they haven't passed the test of authenticity. So, it isn't like Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim just announced to the world that their books are authentic and that was the end of it. No, this is not the case. In reality, their books went through make critics and in the end, the majority of the scholars have agreed that their works are completely authentic. I say "majority" because there are some scholars out there that have a difference of opinion regarding a few of the hadiths in Saheeh Bukhari and Saheeh Muslim and consider them to be weak. I also would like to mention that Imam Muslim was so careful with including hadiths into his compilation that upon meeting Abu Zara'a Al-Razi, he took off several hadiths that Abu Zara'a considered objectionable. Check "Siyanat Saheeh Muslim" by Ibn Al-Salah for more about that.
As for Saheeh Al-Bukhari being compiled two hundred, not one hundred and don't misquote me, but two hundred years late, has no major affect on his work. You only assume that a two hundred year gap would destroy hadith literature because you are ignorant of science of hadith. You don't seem to be aware of the harsh conditions an authentic hadith requires in order for it to be considered as such.
Also, if you are planning to criticize Al-Bukhari for making his compilation that late, then you should flush all Shia hadith literature down the toilet since, as stated earlier, came into existence a couple of centuries later.
Oh, and one more thing since we are on the topic of authentic collections.
http://www.fadakbooks.com/sahihalkafi.html
Introducing SAHEEH Al-KAFI by Mohammed Al-Baqir Al-Bahbudi. Looks like Shias do have an authentic collection of hadith after all. However, don't be too hard on yourself. It isn't the end of the world. God forbid that you folks would have an authentic collection of narrations for you folks to learn your religion from. =p
This is a strange thing as well, since there were some Shia scholars from the past that believed that Al-Kafi, in its original form, before the editing out of "weak" hadiths by Al-Bahbudi was already 100% authentic. However, that is another topic for another time.
I'm just getting started, bebeh!
-------------------------------
-------------------------------
Scholars of Shiasm that Believed in the Fabrication of the Qur'an:
Al-Qumi:
Ali bin Ibrahim Al-Qumi is accepted among Shia scholars as one of the greatest scholars when it comes to the interpretation of the Qur'an. Al-Musawi Al-Jaza'iree praised this tafseer (book of Qur'anic interpretation) and says in his introduction to the book by Al-Qumi, "There is one last thing to make note of, which is that this tafseer, like other old tafseer books, includes narrations that allow us to conclude that the this (the Qur'an) which is between our hands, has been fabricated."
Al-Nuri Al-Tabrasi, the infamous author of Faslul Khitab (p.26) says, "
and the math-hab of the Shaikh Ali bin Ibrahim Al-Qumi in his tafseer is clear from his introduction, and filled his book with narrations about this (the issue of fabrication), while being sure to include only statements from authentic sources and his own sheikhs."
Anyways, none of that is important without some meat. So, check out what Al-Qumi includes in his exegesis of 3:110.
http://altafsir.org/Tafasir.asp?tMa...raNo=3&tAyahNo=110&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0
قوله: { كنتم خير أمة أخرجت للناس } وحدثني أبي عن ابن أبي عمير عن ابن سنان قال قرئت عند أبي عبدالله عليه السلام: { كنتم خير أمة أخرجت للناس } فقال أبو عبدالله عليه السلام: { خير أمة } يقتلون أمير المؤمنين والحسن والحسين عليهم السلام؟ فقال القاري جعلت فداك كيف نزلت؟ قال نزلت { كنتم خير أئمة أخرجت للناس } ألا ترى مدح الله لهم: { تأمرون بالمعروف وتنهون عن المنكر وتؤمنون بالله }
In a nutshell the statement of "Ye are the best community that hath been raised up for mankind," has been fabricated according to Al-Qumi, and was actually "Ye are the best
IMAMS that hath been raised up for mankind."
The next verse is 4:166:
http://altafsir.org/Tafasir.asp?tMa...raNo=4&tAyahNo=166&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0
قوله: { لكن الله يشهد بما أنزل اليك أنزله بعلمه } فإنه حدثني أبي عن ابن أبي عمير عن أبي بصير عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال إنما أنزلت { لكن الله يشهد بما أنزل إليك في علي أنزله بعلمه والملائكة يشهدون وكفى بالله شهيداً }
In this one, Al-Qumi narrates a hadith that says, "But Allah (Himself) testifieth concerning that which He hath revealeth unto thee; in His knowledge hath He revealed it; and the angels also testify. And Allah is sufficient Witness," was originally "But Allah (Himself) testifieth concerning that which He hath revealeth unto thee
about Ali; in His knowledge hath He revealed it; and the angels also testify. And Allah is sufficient Witness."
Awesomeness
Al-Kulayni:
Al-Kafi, which was at one time considered to be the most authentic book among Shias was written by Al-Kulayni, as you are most likely aware. I am sure that you already know that his book is filled with hadiths that clearly show that the Qur'an has been fabricated. However, you have said earlier that this is not an issue, since Al-Kafi is a collection of hadiths, but not necessarily reflect the view of the author. Even though this statement is true in some cases, there are other reasons to believe that Al-Kulayni did believe in the fabrication of the Qur'an. One of them is that the fact that there are no hadiths in his book that prove otherwise. When we only find hadiths that prove that the Qur'an has been tampered with, and not the other way around, we can only assume that this reflects the view of the author.
The second proof is the fact that one of the chapters, which are labeled by Al-Kulayni himself, is titled the chapter of "The Qur'an has Never Been Completely Collected with the Exception of the Imams".
http://www.alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/hadith/kafi1/html/ara/books/al-kafi-1/99.html
Al-Nuri Al-Tabrisi says in Faslil Khitab (p.27) that "it is apparent from his labeling of the chapter what he believes, for the teachings of the scholars of the past (especially in hadith) is known through the names of the chapters."
Next!
Al-Majlisi:
Al-Majlisi, the author of Bihar Al-Anwar, and Mir'aatul Uqool, is truly a fascinating character. His views of the subject are the most clear out of the three. In fact, he authenticated the following hadith, #28 in Al-Kafi under the Nawadir chapter:
علي بن الحكم، عن هشام بن سالم(2)، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: إن القرآن الذي جاء به جبرئيل عليه السلام إلى محمد صلى الله عليه وآله سبعة عشر ألف آية.
http://www.alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/hadith/kafi2/html/ara/books/al-kafi-2/279.html
"Abi Abdillah said, 'The Qur'an when revealed by Gabriel, to Mohammed, was seventeen thousand verses long.'"
Not only does he authenticate it, but he also says,
فالخبر صحيح و لا يخفى أن هذا الخبر و كثير من الأخبار الصحيحة صريحة في نقص القرآن و تغييره
"This statement is true, and it is clear that this narration and others like it affirm that the Qur'an is missing verses and it is altered."
So, according to Al-Majlisi, who is arguably, the greatest Shia hadith scholar known, the Qur'an is missing more than half of its verses due to fabrication.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Intercession:
In any case, this not just a Shia belief. Hanafis also allow intercession:
Mashallah, there is no doubt that the Hanafis have a great weight in Sunnism. We accept the views of all the great Hanafi scholars, from Abu Hanifa, Abu Yusuf, to Ibn Abi Al-Ezz. However, the junk that I see before me is not the work of a Sunni scholar, but of a Maturidi. If you are interested in learning more about Maturidis, then I suggest that you google the term "Maturidi".
Also, from that which you have quoted, the only thing that requires an answer is the hadith from Al-Tabarani:
Moreover, Imam Tabrani relates in his al-Mujam al-Kabir reporting from the same Uthman ibn Hunaif (Allah be pleased with him) that a person repeatedly visited him concerning something he needed, but Uthman paid no attention to him. The man met his son and complained to him about the matter- this was after the death of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and after the eras of Sayyiduna Abu Bakr and Sayyiduna Umar (Allah be pleased with them)- so Uthman (who collected Hadith and was from the learned) said : Go to the place of Wudu, then come to the Masjid, perform two Rakats and then say : O Allah!, I ask you and turn to you through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. O Muhammad! I turn through you to my lord, that He fulfil my need....... until the end of the Hadith.
This is an explicit and clear text from a Companion (sahabi) proving the legal validity of Tawassul through the dead. The Hadith has been classed as authentic (Sahih) by al-Bayhaqi, Mundhiri, al-Haythami and many others.
Blah blah blah
Lies lies lies
I've heard this junk before and I've personally looked through Dala'il Al-Nubuwa by Al-Bayhaqi. (Hadith # 2416) No, he does NOT state that this hadith is authentic. (Screenshots can be provided if you require them) I don't know where to look for Al-Munthiree or Al-Haythamis "authentications", but I can only assume that those are false until proven otherwise.
In any case, Al-Albani (Al-Tawasul, 83) and Shaikh Muqbil (Al-Shafa'a, 189) have already weakened the hadith.
-------------------------
-------------------------
ٍStuff:
DSWii60 said:
"Oh, I don't mind stopping. Just so long as you shut up and let me get away with saying what I want about Shia'ism." That's the undiluted version of what you're trying to say.
You may notice this is the Official Islam Thread. Last I checked we were all Muslims so we're all allowed to contribute in any way we like. It's upto others to decide whether they agree with us or not.
You'll notice that until you came along, this thread was going along nicely with the new Muslims asking questions, getting them answered, and being exposed to different points of views, but ultimately making up their own minds. You've managed to destroy that and spectularly turn us against each other by bringing up completely incorrect views about Shia'ism.
Debating in circles is boring, so I gave up half way through replying to your post. You're clearly never going to change your perception of Shia'ism, but if anyone else has any question I'd be happy to clear anything up.
Whatever
Bring facts and references. I am not interested in your opinion or the opinions of random Sunni websites or Mohammed Adam the Maturidi, whoever the hell he is.
Also, for all of those that cry about unity, all I have to say that I will choose truth over unity any day of the week. I'm not compromise or alter my beliefs in order to satisfy Shias or anyone else. The only middle ground I see is the following:
3:64
"Say: O People of the Scripture!
Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him)."
My idea of a middle ground is just that! A middle ground where I don't compromise any of my values or beliefs.
Truth > Unity.
ice cream said:
But anyway Muhammad was "sunni" so how can you argue with that?
Smartest thing I've heard all week. =)
Duck Amuck said:
What the heck is going on here
I happened.
