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[Prine]

This is Sharia and Jihad, these are two very important parts of Islam smart ass and not observations made about some muslims behaviors, its your duty as a muslim to do the jihad and to establish, support and defend the Sharia.

At least there is some progress here, you now admit that it is part of Islam, so what the Alqaida, Hammas, and hizbulla are doing and the stoning and the beheading that is done in the muslim world is Islamic.

LOL and Jihad is to practice violence heh? Take your own advice and read what Jihad really means.

And now your making stuff up, i see what Malcom X, Bhuddah, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King etc stood for and preached as Islamic.

Non of this nonsense that you want people t believe in. (And dont say what i know you will say)

 

[cashman]

You're so progressive! All the alternative community college chicks who spend all day reading GAF are totally going to want your number now, broseph.

Wow, really?

 

[Kinitari]

I just simply don't see how the things I said in my previous post suggests that acts such as stoning women committing adultery, throwing homosexuals off the cliff (WTF Dude?), and beheading those who are leaving Islam are reasonable. The fact that you are arriving at that kind of conclusion clearly suggests that you are so heavily, and boy do I mean so heavily prejudiced against Islam that you are simply refusing to hear what you don't want to hear about it, and jump at the very first chance you can get to sully its name even if it means using conclusion derived from such a stupid misinterpretation. What a smartass (hohoho).

Sharia and Jihad are two very important part of Islam, yes, that part I won't (and can't) deny. But saying that Sharia and Jihad are synonymous to some serious fucktard blowing himself up or some retard 'throwing homosexuals off the cliff' (again, WTF?) is... well... is something only a smartass (hohoho) would say.

Only one thing in your post screams the truth, and that is


Which is most appropriate for you and you only, Dude.

I think what needs to be understood is that no one is implying that Muslims have some sort of... compulsion to kill and maim and murder and behead and all that Jazz. My entire family is Muslim - and none of them do these things.

The situation is Islam in itself, what the Qur'an teaches - teaches a lot of... not nice things. Apostates and Homosexuals for example - their treatment from Islam (and pretty much any Abrahamic religion) is ridiculous. Apostates get the shit end of the stick when it comes to Islam though, especially.

I mean... can you deny the stance that most Islamic clerics have on apostasy? On homosexuality? Understand I am not picking on Islam in particular, all religions are equally ridiculous to me. The reason I speak against Islam the most though is because of how many Muslims view me. I am an apostate and they don't exactly... respect my stance.

 

[Anaxagoras]

I just simply don't see how the things I said in my previous post suggests that acts such as stoning women committing adultery, throwing homosexuals off the cliff (WTF Dude?), and beheading those who are leaving Islam are reasonable.

Your own words here:
''Islam is not a violent religion in that it does not condone doing violent things crazily without any reasoning; it simply teaches that violence are sometimes required to handle a particular problem''

The fact that you are arriving at that kind of conclusion clearly suggests that you are so heavily, and boy do I mean so heavily prejudiced against Islam that you are simply refusing to hear what you don't want to hear about it, and jump at the very first chance you can get to sully its name even if it means using conclusion derived from such a stupid misinterpretation. What a smartass (hohoho).

Misinterpretation eh? what is it that I have misinterpreted? show it to me and prove the my interpretation of it is incorrect.

Sharia and Jihad are two very important part of Islam, yes, that part I won't (and can't) deny. But saying that Sharia and Jihad are synonymous to some serious fucktard blowing himself up or some retard 'throwing homosexuals off the cliff' (again, WTF?) is... well... is something only a smartass (hohoho) would say.

OMG, How long am i gonna have to do this till you get it, her we go again, step by step:

A. You admit that Jihad is part of Islam:
- Jihad is the muslims duty to kill the nonmuslims when they attack the religion of Islam or when muslim land and property is invaded by non muslims.

1. Is this happening in Israel, Iraq or Afghanistan?
2. Does this mean that Jihad should be done against the nonmuslims who invaded these muslim lands?
3. Is it your duty as a muslim to do Jihad?
4. Are there muslims in these countries that are fighting the nonmuslim invaders?
5. Are those muslim fighters considered jihadests?
6. Is Jihad Islamic?
7. Is what Alqaida, Hammas and hizbulla doing Islamic?


B. You admitted that Sharia is part of Islam:
- Sharia is the Islamic the Islamic court law that muslims should establish, support and defend.

1. Do you support Sharia?
2. Do you know that adultery for women is punished by stoning under the sharia law?
3. Do you know that punishment for homosexuality is being thrown from the highest cliff in town under the sharia law?
4. Do you knowthat beheading is the punishment for apostasy is under the sharia law?
5. Are these punishments Islamic?
6. Do you support these punishments?
7. Are these punishments violent and barbaric?

Conclusion:
Fill it in yourself please.

 

[Anaxagoras]

LOL and Jihad is to practice violence heh? Take your own advice and read what Jihad really means.

And now your making stuff up, i see what Malcom X, Bhuddah, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King etc stood for and preached as Islamic.

Non of this nonsense that you want people t believe in. (And dont say what i know you will say)

Pardon me sir! I made a mistake there, When I said that jihad is the duty of the muslims to kill the nonmuslims when the religion of islam is attacked or when muslim land and property is invaded by nonmuslims, I meant to kill them without using violence! -.-

I think what needs to be understood is that no one is implying that Muslims have some sort of... compulsion to kill and maim and murder and behead and all that Jazz. My entire family is Muslim - and none of them do these things.

The situation is Islam in itself, what the Qur'an teaches - teaches a lot of... not nice things. Apostates and Homosexuals for example - their treatment from Islam (and pretty much any Abrahamic religion) is ridiculous. Apostates get the shit end of the stick when it comes to Islam though, especially.

I mean... can you deny the stance that most Islamic clerics have on apostasy? On homosexuality? Understand I am not picking on Islam in particular, all religions are equally ridiculous to me. The reason I speak against Islam the most though is because of how many Muslims view me. I am an apostate and they don't exactly... respect my stance.

exactly, pointing out that Islam is a violent religion is not the same thing as claiming that Muslims are violent.

 

[DemonSwordsman]

Your own words here:
''Islam is not a violent religion in that it does not condone doing violent things crazily without any reasoning; it simply teaches that violence are sometimes required to handle a particular problem''



Misinterpretation eh? what is it that I have misinterpreted? show it to me and prove the my interpretation of it is incorrect.



OMG, How long am i gonna have to do this till you get it, her we go again, step by step:

A. You admit that Jihad is part of Islam:
- Jihad is the muslims duty to kill the nonmuslims when they attack the religion of Islam or when muslim land and property is invaded by non muslims.

1. Is this happening in Israel, Iraq or Afghanistan?
2. Does this mean that Jihad should be done against the nonmuslims who invaded these muslim lands?
3. Is it your duty as a muslim to do Jihad?
4. Are there muslims in these countries that are fighting the nonmuslim invaders?
5. Are those muslim fighters considered jihadests?
6. Is Jihad Islamic?
7. Is what Alqaida, Hammas and hizbulla doing Islamic?
So this is the only thing first of all they have a right to do all of the above why should they not?

But that does not mean what those 3 are doing is islamic. I wont even count alqaida because the are not the same as Hamas and Hezbollah. 1st of all if they were just fighting then that is fine. the only unislamic thing would be suicide bombings and bombing civilians. But they have every right to kill any israeli soldier that steps into their land. and resist in any other violent or non violent way that does not just explicitly target innocent people.


B. You admitted that Sharia is part of Islam:
- Sharia is the Islamic the Islamic court law that muslims should establish, support and defend.

1. Do you support Sharia?
2. Do you know that adultery for women is punished by stoning under the sharia law?
3. Do you know that punishment for homosexuality is being thrown from the highest cliff in town under the sharia law?
4. Do you knowthat beheading is the punishment for apostasy is under the sharia law?
5. Are these punishments Islamic?
6. Do you support these punishments?
7. Are these punishments violent and barbaric?
In order to actually stone someone you need evidence that is very hard to actually produce and prove it in a proper sharia court. Just because you have people accusing someone of something doesn't make them guitly you need a lot of proof. The courts right now they dont even follow that properly so it has nothing to do with islam.

As for the homos, if they have a problem with this then they should go to usa. They have no reason to be living in an islamic country.

Conclusion:
Fill it in yourself please.

Conclusion. You are an idiot

 

[InEffectMode]

Conclusion. You are an idiot

Edit the second to last bolded line; this thread is interesting and I just want to see it continue.

 

[Kinitari]

Conclusion. You are an idiot

Wow really? "It's hard getting evidence to stone people, so it's not a big deal" - really?

And dude... edit that... fuckdiculous thing you just said about the 'homos' goddamn. Actually no, don't edit that. Keep it there.

 

[Anaxagoras]

A. You admit that Jihad is part of Islam:
- Jihad is the muslims duty to kill the nonmuslims when they attack the religion of Islam or when muslim land and property is invaded by non muslims.

1. Is this happening in Israel, Iraq or Afghanistan?
2. Does this mean that Jihad should be done against the nonmuslims who invaded these muslim lands?
3. Is it your duty as a muslim to do Jihad?
4. Are there muslims in these countries that are fighting the nonmuslim invaders?
5. Are those muslim fighters considered jihadests?
6. Is Jihad Islamic?
7. Is what Alqaida, Hammas and hizbulla doing Islamic?
So this is the only thing first of all they have a right to do all of the above why should they not?

But that does not mean what those 3 are doing is islamic. I wont even count alqaida because the are not the same as Hamas and Hezbollah. 1st of all if they were just fighting then that is fine. the only unislamic thing would be suicide bombings and bombing civilians. But they have every right to kill any israeli soldier that steps into their land. and resist in any other violent or non violent way that does not just explicitly target innocent people.

Explain, so if they do what they do without killing themselves in a suicide attempt then it is islamic! well, that doesnt change a lot about how violent the religion is!

And let me be clear before we go any further, its a matter of definition and interpretation, to some people young men in the us army are innocent because they have no intention of attacking islam or muslims but are forced to, to others US citizens are not innocent because they have voted and elected george w bush, two times, knowing that he is attacking muslim land.

B. You admitted that Sharia is part of Islam:
- Sharia is the Islamic the Islamic court law that muslims should establish, support and defend.

1. Do you support Sharia?
2. Do you know that adultery for women is punished by stoning under the sharia law?
3. Do you know that punishment for homosexuality is being thrown from the highest cliff in town under the sharia law?
4. Do you knowthat beheading is the punishment for apostasy is under the sharia law?
5. Are these punishments Islamic?
6. Do you support these punishments?
7. Are these punishments violent and barbaric?

In order to actually stone someone you need evidence that is very hard to actually produce and prove it in a proper sharia court. Just because you have people accusing someone of something doesn't make them guitly you need a lot of proof. The courts right now they dont even follow that properly so it has nothing to do with islam.

HAHA
You are peeing on your own feet, the only thing you are proving here is how inefficient the Sharia court is, it doesn't change the fact that it is Islamic whether it is practiced today or not.

As for the homos, if they have a problem with this then they should go to usa. They have no reason to be living in an islamic country.

and here we go, you have finally showed your true face

Conclusion. You are an idiot

very mature of you.
Congrats, You officially failed at proving your religion to be a non violent one.

 

[DemonSwordsman]

Wow really? "It's hard getting evidence to stone people, so it's not a big deal" - really?

And dude... edit that... fuckdiculous thing you just said about the 'homos' goddamn. Actually no, don't edit that. Keep it there.

Adultery is a bad crime and has its punishments all i meant with that was if the actual rule is followed properly then people wont be stoned falsely by mistake. And even then it is up to the judge to decide the stoning would be the maximum punishment. And i like how he only mentions the women gets stoned the law when the law is the same for men.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Adultery is a bad crime and has its punishments all i meant with that was if the actual rule is followed properly then people wont be stoned falsely by mistake. And even then it is up to the judge to decide the stoning would be the maximum punishment. And i like how he only mentions the women gets stoned the law when the law is the same for men.

No need to justify the punishments and the violence, that is another discussion, what we are discussing right now is whether Islam is a violent religion or not.

 

[DemonSwordsman]

Explain, so if they do what they do without killing themselves in a suicide attempt then it is islamic! well, that doesnt change a lot about how violent the religion is!

And let me be clear before we go any further, its a matter of definition and interpretation, to some people young men in the us army are innocent because they have no intention of attacking islam or muslims but are forced to, to others US citizens are not innocent because they have voted and elected george w bush, two times, knowing that he is attacking muslim land.

How does the ability to defend yourself make the religion violent. Thats great logic there. So basically if a Muslim country gets attacked the people are not allowed to fight back because that means islam is a violent religion. They should just sit there and get killed. Good to see how you think.

And i said suicide bombings + bombing (ie. rocket attacks) on civilians is unislamic.

HAHA
You are peeing on your own feet, the only thing you are proving here is how inefficient the Sharia court is, it doesn't change the fact that it is Islamic whether it is practiced today or not.

As for the homos, if they have a problem with this then they should go to usa. They have no reason to be living in an islamic country.

and here we go, you have finally showed your true face

very mature of you.
Congrats, You officially failed at proving your religion to be a non violent one.

Like i said above its impossible to convict someone if they did not commit a crime. And some courts today are not following the rules exactly and convicting without the evidence that is the fault of the people running them.

 

[Kinitari]

Adultery is a bad crime and has its punishments all i meant with that was if the actual rule is followed properly then people wont be stoned falsely by mistake. And even then it is up to the judge to decide the stoning would be the maximum punishment. And i like how he only mentions the women gets stoned the law when the law is the same for men.

It doesn't matter if it is for men or women - stoning someone for adultery is ridiculous. Stoning = killing. It doesn't matter if that sentence isn't always carried out because it is just the maximum - violently killing someone in public is... well I don't want to overuse the phrase "barbaric" but I mean, if the shoe fits.

And you very poorly addressed homosexuality and apostasy - VERY poorly. You are not making a good case in the defense of Islam being a peaceful/non-violent religion when your arguments essentially boil down to:

1. Adulterers pretty much deserve it, just gotta hope people aren't accidentally accused of adultery! (Considering how often rape victims are persecuted... hoo boy)

2. If they don't want to be violently killed by Islamic law, they should leave - and peace ensues.

 

[Anaxagoras]

How does the ability to defend yourself make the religion violent. Thats great logic there. So basically if a Muslim country gets attacked the people are not allowed to fight back because that means islam is a violent religion. They should just sit there and get killed. Good to see how you think.

And i said suicide bombings + bombing (ie. rocket attacks) on civilians is unislamic.

There is a difference between defense and attack, and we have discussed that before.

So do you believe that Israelis should all be killed or leave the land and go live somewhere else?

Like i said above its impossible to convict someone if they did not commit a crime. And some courts today are not following the rules exactly and convicting without the evidence that is the fault of the people running them.

So if I was a muslim woman that had sex in a muslim country, there was evidence and I admitted that i did engage in sexual behavior with another adult, do you support the punishment of stoning me to death?

 

[activatethesmile]

Your own words here:
''Islam is not a violent religion in that it does not condone doing violent things crazily without any reasoning; it simply teaches that violence are sometimes required to handle a particular problem''

Misinterpretation eh? what is it that I have misinterpreted? show it to me and prove the my interpretation of it is incorrect.

Yes, those are my words... and? *scratches head* I am simply saying that violence is not necessarily always bad in all situations. If you have a reasonable justification to do it (like, for example, defending yourself from a great danger), then by all means, do some violence if you must. I am in no shape or form ever suggested that stoning or pushing homosexuals off the cliff or whatever WTF things that you came up with as things that are still within the 'reasonable'
boundaries.

OMG, How long am i gonna have to do this till you get it, her we go again, step by step:

A. You admit that Jihad is part of Islam:
- Jihad is the muslims duty to kill the nonmuslims when they attack the religion of Islam or when muslim land and property is invaded by non muslims.....

B. You admitted that Sharia is part of Islam:
- Sharia is the Islamic the Islamic court law that muslims should establish, support and defend.....

The way you structure the wording of your post suggests that you are an easily aggravated person that loves to attack others but can't handle being attacked himself. That, or an overly angsty man whom his dog or cat was killed by a crazy person wearing a Turban.

Anyways, "Jihad is the muslims' duty to KILL nonmuslims.....?" Sorry, from where the hell did you get this idea? From your ass? You hilariously suggested that the "Islam Defenders" read the Al-Qur'an properly before defending it, but please do tell, have you? Have you read Al-Qur'an 'properly' yourself? Define 'properly' for that matter. For you to come into conclusion that Jihad is the muslims' duty to KILL nonmuslims bla-bla-bla are so narrow-minded and so filled with prejudice that it is simply, simply... mind if do this again:

Since your 1-7 Jihad questions are based on your skewed definition of Jihad, I wouldn't bother answering them.

Sharia, or Islamic law, is a part of Islam yes. As for your 1-7 Sharia questions, from 5-7 the answers are of course no, and since the 5-7 answers are no, than 2-3-4 need not to be addressed. As for no 1, yes, I do believe in Sharia Law, but not in the same context as you when you view that Sharia Law is this evil demonic set of regulations made by a Devil God to screw all decent people in the world.

Pardon me sir! I made a mistake there, When I said that jihad is the duty of the muslims to kill the nonmuslims when the religion of islam is attacked or when muslim land and property is invaded by nonmuslims, I meant to kill them without using violence! -.-

See above.

I think what needs to be understood is that no one is implying that Muslims have some sort of... compulsion to kill and maim and murder and behead and all that Jazz. My entire family is Muslim - and none of them do these things.

The situation is Islam in itself, what the Qur'an teaches - teaches a lot of... not nice things. Apostates and Homosexuals for example - their treatment from Islam (and pretty much any Abrahamic religion) is ridiculous. Apostates get the shit end of the stick when it comes to Islam though, especially.

I mean... can you deny the stance that most Islamic clerics have on apostasy? On homosexuality? Understand I am not picking on Islam in particular, all religions are equally ridiculous to me. The reason I speak against Islam the most though is because of how many Muslims view me. I am an apostate and they don't exactly... respect my stance.

Well, I say that Nizar has implied that assertion quite strongly in his posts, and only when your post is coming that he quickly tried to hide it with his post that quotes you above.

"Al-Qur'an teaches a lot... a lot of nice things." Examples? I think that the reason why Al-Qur'an is so often misunderstood by people is that: (1) People who are 'trying to study it' are already so prejudiced against Islam so that they are only seeing what they want to see, and (2) Al-Qur'an is a book that must be read and understood in the right context, which is why there are a lot of Hadits from the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) flying around in the world to complement it.

As for your complaints about they aren't respecting your stance of being an apostate... Well, I kind of think that you are being tad unfair to expect that they should just accept all of your terms and conditions completely unconditionally. They're just humans, after all, not angels, so it is perfectly normal for them to feel somewhat unpleasant if you are doing something that they feel strongly disagree with. Uhh... I know that this will not satisfy you much but I'm in the middle of a huge workload here and my mind is a bit messy, hahaha, sorry. I promise I will post more in the future to further explain my stance on your condition (and this goes to Nizar too)

But hey, at the very least you're not getting beheaded right?

 

[DemonSwordsman]

It doesn't matter if it is for men or women - stoning someone for adultery is ridiculous. Stoning = killing. It doesn't matter if that sentence isn't always carried out because it is just the maximum - violently killing someone in public is... well I don't want to overuse the phrase "barbaric" but I mean, if the shoe fits.

And you very poorly addressed homosexuality and apostasy - VERY poorly. You are not making a good case in the defense of Islam being a peaceful/non-violent religion when your arguments essentially boil down to:

1. Adulterers pretty much deserve it, just gotta hope people aren't accidentally accused of adultery! (Considering how often rape victims are persecuted... hoo boy)

2. If they don't want to be violently killed by Islamic law, they should leave - and peace ensues.

1. Yes but the way sharia is set up it is pretty much impossible to accuse someone by mistake if it is actually followed properly. The rape victim stuff i agree is retarded but it has nothing to do with islam. The courts that actually persecute rape victims are beyond messed up and are not following sharia properly.

2. Well unless they are going around publicly having gay sex or something they shouldnt have a problem.

 

[DemonSwordsman]

There is a difference between defense and attack, and we have discussed that before.

So do you believe that Israelis should all be killed or leave the land and go live somewhere else?

Oh i see your agenda now. LOL it is pathetic that you have to word your posts to make me say something like they should kill all israelis.

And the israelis shouldnt be there in the first place but they are now. IDF is the biggest terrorist organisation in the world and if you are supporting them then there is no point in continuing this because i already know our agenda. They attack, kill and raze homes in palestine and so anyone attacks the israeli soldiers i would not give a shit.

Like i said enough times before if they are bombing civilians on purpose than that is unislamic (which btw israel has done with much more effectiveness and dedication than both hezbollah and hamas combined)

So if I was a muslim woman that had sex in a muslim country, there was evidence and I admitted that i did engage in sexual behavior with another adult, do you support the punishment of stoning me to death?

Why do you word it muslim woman? Why not man? and why would they just stone her. If they were guilty both of them would be punished.

 

[Kinitari]

Well, I say that Nizar has implied that assertion quite strongly in his posts, and only when your post is coming that he quickly tried to hide it with his post that quotes you above.

"Al-Qur'an teaches a lot... a lot of nice things." Examples? I think that the reason why Al-Qur'an is so often misunderstood by people is that: (1) People who are 'trying to study it' are already so prejudiced against Islam so that they are only seeing what they want to see, and (2) Al-Qur'an is a book that must be read and understood in the right context, which is why there are a lot of Hadits from the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) flying around in the world to complement it.

As for your complaints about they aren't respecting your stance of being an apostate... Well, I kind of think that you are being tad unfair to expect that they should just accept all of your terms and conditions completely unconditionally. They're just humans, after all, not angels, so it is perfectly normal for them to feel somewhat unpleasant if you are doing something that they feel strongly disagree with. Uhh... I know that this will not satisfy you much but I'm in the middle of a huge workload here and my mind is a bit messy, hahaha, sorry. I promise I will post more in the future to further explain my stance on your condition (and this goes to Nizar too)

But hey, at the very least you're not getting beheaded right?

I will at least say this much - it is entirely possible to interpret the Qur'an and the Hadith in a way that has a lot of commonly understood teachings seem less... bad. Take hitting wives when they cross the line - if you read VERY carefully, you can maybe conclude that there is a hidden implication that hitting your wife when she crosses the line is bad - and you should never do it. Unfortunately this isn't clear cut, and it is VERY EASY to interpret it as - hit your wife if you are mad at her and it is cool in gods eyes.

That's the major issue, interpretations of the Qur'an are subjective, so it's hard saying which ones are more accurate without calling down God and asking him to read it over with you, to help clarify. So the issue is really that it is too easily and too often interpreted in violent ways.

Lets be clear here - stoning someone to death is violent. Slapping and hitting as punishment is violent. Beheading is violent. All these practices are outlined in the religious text - so it is very hard to just outright dismiss them.

I know people are human, and they are allowed to feel the way they do about my apostasy - but it doesn't make me feel any less uncomfortable how much I am either... looked down upon as some tainted product of the devil, or pitied as some lost wondering soul - or worse, someone who is a threat to Islam and needs to be removed. All three of those stances depends on how people interpret the Qur'an - and that's kind of a really sad thing.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Yes, those are my words... and? *scratches head* I am simply saying that violence is not necessarily always bad in all situations. If you have a reasonable justification to do it (like, for example, defending yourself from a great danger), then by all means, do some violence if you must. I am in no shape or form ever suggested that stoning or pushing homosexuals off the cliff or whatever WTF things that you came up with as things that are still within the 'reasonable'
boundaries.

This clearly shows that your knowledge about sharia is very weak.
Go to the mosque and ask the elders and the more experienced in Islam about the punishments of Sharia.

The way you structure the wording of your post suggests that you are an easily aggravated person that loves to attack others but can't handle being attacked himself. That, or an overly angsty man whom his dog or cat was killed by a crazy person wearing a Turban.

Stick to the topic, this discussion is neither about me or my attitude towards Islam sugar coaters.

Anyways, "Jihad is the muslims' duty to KILL nonmuslims.....?" Sorry, from where the hell did you get this idea? From your ass? You hilariously suggested that the "Islam Defenders" read the Al-Qur'an properly before defending it, but please do tell, have you? Have you read Al-Qur'an 'properly' yourself? Define 'properly' for that matter. For you to come into conclusion that Jihad is the muslims' duty to KILL nonmuslims bla-bla-bla are so narrow-minded and so filled with prejudice that it is simply, simply... mind if do this again:

What is jihad then? Isn't it the muslims duty to fight the nonmuslims when they attack Islam or invade muslim land?

Since your 1-7 Jihad questions are based on your skewed definition of Jihad, I wouldn't bother answering them.

You don't have the balls to answers them, thats why.

Sharia, or Islamic law, is a part of Islam yes. As for your 1-7 Sharia questions, from 5-7 the answers are of course no, and since the 5-7 answers are no, than 2-3-4 need not to be addressed. As for no 1, yes, I do believe in Sharia Law, but not in the same context as you when you view that Sharia Law is this evil demonic set of regulations made by a Devil God to screw all decent people in the world.

See above ^

You know nothing about neither sharia nor Jihad, thats why everything seems so violent to you all of the sudden.

Well, I say that Nizar has implied that assertion quite strongly in his posts, and only when your post is coming that he quickly tried to hide it with his post that quotes you above.

"Al-Qur'an teaches a lot... a lot of nice things." Examples? I think that the reason why Al-Qur'an is so often misunderstood by people is that: (1) People who are 'trying to study it' are already so prejudiced against Islam so that they are only seeing what they want to see, and (2) Al-Qur'an is a book that must be read and understood in the right context, which is why there are a lot of Hadits from the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) flying around in the world to complement it.

So basically you are saying that I am taking verses out of the context or misinterpreting them, ask yourself, how many wars have the prophet mohammad been through? how many of the great muslims died while fighting the nonmuslims, and how many more dreamt of dieng while fighting the nonmuslims?

This is what the prophet mohammed lived and risked his life for, the same goes to the sharia law court.

I challenge you to show one verse that I have used out of context.

As for your complaints about they aren't respecting your stance of being an apostate... Well, I kind of think that you are being tad unfair to expect that they should just accept all of your terms and conditions completely unconditionally. They're just humans, after all, not angels, so it is perfectly normal for them to feel somewhat unpleasant if you are doing something that they feel strongly disagree with. Uhh... I know that this will not satisfy you much but I'm in the middle of a huge workload here and my mind is a bit messy, hahaha, sorry. I promise I will post more in the future to further explain my stance on your condition (and this goes to Nizar too)

But hey, at the very least you're not getting beheaded right?

Show more facts please and less of your own theories and explanations of how you think things are in islam.

 

[Althane]

Just interjecting my own little two cents:

People who want to be angry and kill other people do not need religion as a reason to do it. They will get around to doing it, and if it wasn't religion, then it would be politics, or passion, or any number of reasons. You can claim moral outrage even if you don't have a religion, any person can claim that they thought they were being threatened. It's what's wrong with the people, rather than the religion.

That said, any religion (I am NOT pointing fingers, so don't look to deep into this) that preaches violence or indignities to those who don't believe should be looked at very, very carefully.

Any culture that can twist religion into a reason for killing people should likewise be examined carefully.

(okay, now I am going to point a finger)
It just so happens that the religion this time is Islam, and the culture this time is the Middle East.

In previous times it could be the Greek or Roman pantheons, the Egyptian panteon, Christianity in the dark ages.

What happened? Through conflict, free thought, and a hell of a lot of time, they changed. This, will happen as well in this day and age.

Granted, I mean, in the middle ages they didn't exactly have high explosives. But, meh.

 

[Anaxagoras]

1. Yes but the way sharia is set up it is pretty much impossible to accuse someone by mistake if it is actually followed properly. The rape victim stuff i agree is retarded but it has nothing to do with islam. The courts that actually persecute rape victims are beyond messed up and are not following sharia properly.

Thats's because you know too much, they stoned the raped victim so that people won't use excuses such as ''He raped me'' to escape the sentence.

2. Well unless they are going around publicly having gay sex or something they shouldnt have a problem.

So if I and another adult have sex and some people spied on us through the hotel cameras, do you support the punishment of us being stoned?

________________________

Oh i see your agenda now. LOL it is pathetic that you have to word your posts to make me say something like they should kill all israelis.

And the israelis shouldnt be there in the first place but they are now. IDF is the biggest terrorist organisation in the world and if you are supporting them then there is no point in continuing this because i already know our agenda. They attack, kill and raze homes in palestine and so anyone attacks the israeli soldiers i would not give a shit.

No need to explain the political situation to me and be straight forward in your answers, do you support the killings of the Israelis?

One more question, Do you support the killing of the Pakistanis?

Well muslims in the indian region have existed for as long as the jews existed in the arab lands and decided to part of the land for them selves because they felt under represented, just like the jews of Israeil.

Do you see any similarities? do you too support the attacks on the pakistanis because the live on a land isnt originally theirs?

Like i said enough times before if they are bombing civilians on purpose than that is unislamic (which btw israel has done with much more effectiveness and dedication than both hezbollah and hamas combined)

this doesn't make much sense, who is it ok to kill according to you? the soldiers? the politicians? the supporters? the people who elected the attacking government?

Why do you word it muslim woman? Why not man? and why would they just stone her. If they were guilty both of them would be punished.

same thing, man, woman.

So conclusioin:
You support stoning, beheading and attacks on nonmuslims as long as no citizens get hurt in the action. did i get it right?

 

[DemonSwordsman]

What is jihad then? Isn't it the muslims duty to fight the nonmuslims when they attack Islam or invade muslim land?
.

Well since you seem to be the expert on sharia. you should know that Jihad means to struggle. And you should also know that there are 2 forms of jihad, internal struggle and external.

The most important form of jihad is the jihad within yourself to follow the right path etc. And the 2nd is to fight for islam and defend their country.

And by saying that the 2nd form of jihad is proof islam is violent means that any country that allows for its people to defend themselves against invaders is violent along with all its people. Basically anyone that thinks its ok to defend themselves when attacked is violent.

So the next time someone comes and attacks you nizar you dont dare fight back unless you are violent and a hypocrite.

 

[DemonSwordsman]

Thats's because you know too much, they stoned the raped victim so that people won't use excuses such as ''He raped me'' to escape the sentence.

So if I and another adult have sex and some people spied on us through the hotel cameras, do you support the punishment of us being stoned?

________________________

The punishment for false accusations of adultery carry the same sentence adultery itself.

No need to explain the political situation to me and be straight forward in your answers, do you support the killings of the Israelis?


One more question, Do you support the killing of the Pakistanis?

Well muslims in the indian region have existed for as long as the jews existed in the arab lands and decided to part of the land for them selves because they felt under represented, just like the jews of Israeil.

Do you see any similarities? do you too support the attacks on the pakistanis because the live on a land isnt originally theirs?


this doesn't make much sense, who is it ok to kill according to you? the soldiers? the politicians? the supporters? the people who elected the attacking government?

Why dont you be straight forward about your true intentions?

And how is pakistan vs india even remotely the same? The pakistani government isnt bombing india, blockading its borders and razing homes in india. Nor are they expanding their territory building settlements.

And you dont seem to understand what a CIVILIAN is. maybe you should look it up. like i said every time attacking the civilians is wrong. if you can't understand that then you have a problem.

So conclusioin:
You support stoning, beheading and attacks on nonmuslims as long as no citizens get hurt in the action. did i get it right?

So once again you try and put words into my mouth. Do you understand the word Civilian? Do you understand how that is different than a soldier?

So when islam allows you to defend yourself against attackers and forbids attacks on innocent CIVILIANS that is no different any country having the right to defend itself against invaders.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Well since you seem to be the expert on sharia. you should know that Jihad means to struggle. And you should also know that there are 2 forms of jihad, internal struggle and external.

The most important form of jihad is the jihad within yourself to follow the right path etc. And the 2nd is to fight for islam and defend their country.

So you broadened the term jihad a little bit more, lets hope that will help you prove that islam is not a violent religion

And by saying that the 2nd form of jihad is proof islam is violent means that any country that allows for its people to defend themselves against invaders is violent along with all its people. Basically anyone that thinks its ok to defend themselves when attacked is violent.

You forgot to mention one more thing about jihad, why is that? maybe you don't want it to be discussed on the table? I will put it up for you.

Jihad is not only when muslim land is being invaded, it is also when the religion of Islam is being attacked, for example:
The pope says something negative about Islam.
George W Bush states that the war on Iraq is a crusade.
The Danish publish cartoons insulting the prophet mohammed.
The french not allowing muslims to wear the head scarf at schools and public places.
The Christians say that the prophet jesus is the son of God.

There are many different examples of this, and its up to the follower to decide what is an attack on Islam and what isn't.

So the next time someone comes and attacks you nizar you dont dare fight back unless you are violent and a hypocrite.

No my friend, I never claimed that I am peaceful, I never sugar coated my self, if i get physically attack I will cause my opponent brain damage before he even knows it.

 

[Althane]

So when islam allows you to defend yourself against attackers and forbids attacks on innocent CIVILIANS that is no different any country having the right to defend itself against invaders.

Just to throw the fire onto the already burning car, do you realize that what you just said made you more violent than the other "standard" religions? Christianity tells you to turn the other cheek, Buddhism says not to kill. Hinduism likewise is very peaceful.

So, that said, let's get to the nitty-gritty:

Christianity had the crusades, more or less massive bloodbaths leading to the deaths of a million or two people (Wiki gives a pretty wide range on that one). So obviously, it doesn't have much to call Islam out on, if anything, it is worse for being a hypocrite.

Although... since I'm not exactly a historian or a religion expert, I can't think of any major wars and the like that Buddhism and Hinduism would be responsible for. Hum.

But still, I mean, when your standard line is "Go ahead and kill the people invading you", rather than "Turn the other cheek"/"endure it"/ect.... do you see where people might be coming from?

 

[Anaxagoras]

The punishment for false accusations of adultery carry the same sentence adultery itself.

Well that makes it less violent, does it?

Why dont you be straight forward about your true intentions?

My intentions are clear, I am tiered of people who have little knowledge about Islam who are trying to sugar coat it for their own beinifits of making their religion seem less barbaric and violent, either you stop lying and speak the truth or leave the questions to be answered by other people.

And how is pakistan vs india even remotely the same? The pakistani government isnt bombing india, blockading its borders and razing homes in india. Nor are they expanding their territory building settlements.

Ok, so your problem with Israel is not that Israelis are living on a land isn't originally theirs? its because they are bombing the palestenian territories, blockading the borders and razing homes.

So if they stop all that, will you change your position on killing the Israelis?

And you dont seem to understand what a CIVILIAN is. maybe you should look it up. like i said every time attacking the civilians is wrong. if you can't understand that then you have a problem.

So once again you try and put words into my mouth. Do you understand the word Civilian? Do you understand how that is different than a soldier?

Soldiers are civilians too, they go back home and have families to take care of when they are not at war. the same goes to politicians who voted for these wars and attacks to take place.

Be more clear by what you mean by innocent people, are the soldiers innocent? are the politicians innocent? are the funders and detonators innocent? are the voters innocent? who of these is it ok to kill in islam according to you Mr. Jihad expert.

So when islam allows you to defend yourself against attackers and forbids attacks on innocent CIVILIANS that is no different any country having the right to defend itself against invaders.

No, in islam it is your duty to attack the nonmuslims [where ever you find them] if they invade muslim land or attach the religion.

 

[Althane]

Soldiers are civilians too, they go back home and have families to take care of when they are not at war. the same goes to politicians who voted for these wars and attacks to take place.

No they're not. Well, I mean, the politicians are, but a civilian is anyone who's not "in the armed services or police force". Soldiers are civilians when they leave the army, not when they go back home. If your paycheck is coming from the U.S. Army, excellent chances are you're not a civilian.

 

[Anaxagoras]

No they're not. Well, I mean, the politicians are, but a civilian is anyone who's not "in the armed services or police force". Soldiers are civilians when they leave the army, not when they go back home. If your paycheck is coming from the U.S. Army, excellent chances are you're not a civilian.

You have a point there, my point of that response was to show that it is not a black or white issue, soldiers in the army and politicians too change carriers too, and for example there are workers that work with the army but dont fight, like medics, cleaners, truck drivers, transportation, media personal, who of these is it ok to kill according to Islam?

they do not all necessarily press the button, but they all together make the button pressable, so they are all guilty, and thats what i meant by the black/white gradient.

 

[LINK.AGE76]

Where did you get the definition of Jihad as "Jihad is the muslims duty to kill the nonmuslims when they attack the religion of Islam or when muslim land and property is invaded by non muslims."

WTF!!!

 

[Anaxagoras]

Where did you get the definition of Jihad as "Jihad is the muslims duty to kill the nonmuslims when they attack the religion of Islam or when muslim land and property is invaded by non muslims."

WTF!!!

Out of my ass, what do you think?

Jihad as a duty for all Muslims:

''Jihad (pronounced /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد‎ [dʒiˈhæːd]), an Islamic term, is a religious duty of Muslims.''

The beginnings of Jihad are traced back to the words and actions of Muhammad and the Qu’ran.[26] This word of Allah explicitly encourages the use of Jihad against non-Muslims.[27] Sura 25, verse 52 states: “Therefore, do not obey the disbelievers, and strive against them with this, a great striving.”[28] It was, therefore, the duty of all Muslims to strive against those who did not believe in Allah and took offensive action against Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

Jihad when muslim land is invaded and muslims made homeless:

Permission to take up arms is hereby given to those who are attacked because they have been oppressed – Allah indeed has power to grant them victory – those who have been unjustly driven from their homes, only because they said: “Our Lord is Allah”.
—Qur'an, [Qur'an 22:39]

Fighting the nonmuslims:

Those who believe, fight in the cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Satan. So fight you against the friends of Satan. Ever feeble indeed is the plot of Satan.
—Qur'an, [Qur'an 4:76]

I guess it is clear that my understanding of jihad is correct, what is yours?

 

[LINK.AGE76]

Out of my ass, what do you think?

Jihad as a duty for all Muslims:

''Jihad (pronounced /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد‎ [dʒiˈhæːd]), an Islamic term, is a religious duty of Muslims.''

The beginnings of Jihad are traced back to the words and actions of Muhammad and the Qu’ran.[26] This word of Allah explicitly encourages the use of Jihad against non-Muslims.[27] Sura 25, verse 52 states: “Therefore, do not obey the disbelievers, and strive against them with this, a great striving.”[28] It was, therefore, the duty of all Muslims to strive against those who did not believe in Allah and took offensive action against Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

Jihad when muslim land is invaded and muslims made homeless:

Permission to take up arms is hereby given to those who are attacked because they have been oppressed – Allah indeed has power to grant them victory – those who have been unjustly driven from their homes, only because they said: “Our Lord is Allah”.
—Qur'an, [Qur'an 22:39]

Fighting the nonmuslims:

Those who believe, fight in the cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Satan. So fight you against the friends of Satan. Ever feeble indeed is the plot of Satan.
—Qur'an, [Qur'an 4:76]

I guess it is clear that my understanding of jihad is correct, what is yours?

This is Jihad is that time, In Islam a rule changes from time and place. Something that applies in America might not apply in the Middle East. For example Beer is forbidden in Islam and we can't sell it, but what if there was a Muslim guy who came to America to learn and study but didn't have a job. He was offered a job at a liquor store, in this case its okay as long is that the person doesn't stick to it and once he has good enough money he can get a good job.

Another example is talking to girls and looking at them (girls who aren't related, meaning excluding family), in Islam we should try to avoid it as much as possible. In America its hard to avoid it and sometimes we have no choice such as in school and the work place. In this case we try to talk to them to the minimum like asking for work or necessities not "Hey, you look so fine, can I get your number please."

Two small examples that show how things in Islam are different from place and time, Jihad follows it. Jihad back in the times of the prophet was like what you pointed out, but now its quiet different. Jihad means struggle, struggle one's self and the society. In the first example about the Muslim person going to America for education is considered Jihad believe it or not. Helping kids grow up is Jihad, getting married is Jihad, building houses for the homeless is Jihad, and telling you about this is jihad. Those are some examples of what Jihad is.

Islam is a religion and practice of how you live life. You only took one part of what Jihad is, but the Jihad is something way more bigger than what you think. Its what makes us better in life, just because some extremist Muslims like to use it doesn't mean it's what the imply, also same goes with the media. jihad is the struggle to become a better person and make your society and people better.

 

[SmokyDave]

In Islam a rule changes from time and place.

Pretty much says it all...

 

[Linkhero1]

Pretty much says it all...

What do you mean by this? Explain.

 

[SmokyDave]

What do you mean by this? Explain.

Islam is full of flexible rules and open interpretations. This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the actions of certain groups believing they are pursuing the 'true' Islam. It also neuters the ability of moderates to condemn things too strongly as no-one is really sure who is doing it right.

 

[Anaxagoras]

This is Jihad is that time, In Islam a rule changes from time and place. Something that applies in America might not apply in the Middle East. For example Beer is forbidden in Islam and we can't sell it, but what if there was a Muslim guy who came to America to learn and study but didn't have a job. He was offered a job at a liquor store, in this case its okay as long is that the person doesn't stick to it and once he has good enough money he can get a good job.

Another example is talking to girls and looking at them (girls who aren't related, meaning excluding family), in Islam we should try to avoid it as much as possible. In America its hard to avoid it and sometimes we have no choice such as in school and the work place. In this case we try to talk to them to the minimum like asking for work or necessities not "Hey, you look so fine, can I get your number please."

Two small examples that show how things in Islam are different from place and time, Jihad follows it. Jihad back in the times of the prophet was like what you pointed out, but now its quiet different. Jihad means struggle, struggle one's self and the society. In the first example about the Muslim person going to America for education is considered Jihad believe it or not. Helping kids grow up is Jihad, getting married is Jihad, building houses for the homeless is Jihad, and telling you about this is jihad. Those are some examples of what Jihad is.

Islam is a religion and practice of how you live life. You only took one part of what Jihad is, but the Jihad is something way more bigger than what you think. Its what makes us better in life, just because some extremist Muslims like to use it doesn't mean it's what the imply, also same goes with the media. jihad is the struggle to become a better person and make your society and people better.

You sir are wrong and should be corrected,

First, there is no need to bring up the different types of jihad on the table, because we are talking about the militant jihad (Jihad as-sayf).

Islam does not change depending on time and space and I challenge you to prove me wrong by providing me a single verse from the Quran that says otherwise, in fact the reason Islam was sent to us from Allah is because it is believed that the previous Abrahamic religions were modified by their people / are not followed as they should be.

What you are talking about are conditions and circumstances were the follower is not able to follow the Islamic practices fully and therefore the follower is forgiven by Allah if he breaks the laws of Islam due to the lack of other options, an example of this is eating pork when there is nothing else to rely on for survival, getting drunk from alcohol due to the lack of other pain killing medication in order to perform a surgery or not fighting the nonmuslim invaders due to handicaps.

This in no way means that Islam is altered or modified to suit modern day situation, your duties as a muslim do not change and will never change until the day of judgment.

Also, you can't compare Jihad with working at Wallmart or chatting with girls hence Jihad is a duty to all muslims, It is also the third highest deed in Islam:
In the hadith it is said that when asked "O Allah's Apostle! What is the best deed?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is next in goodness?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents." then further asked, what is next in goodness?" He replied, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause." Sahih al-Bukhari 1:2:25.
It is also classified as the sixth pillar of Islam by Sunni scholars among shahada, praying, fasting, zakah and hajj.

When the conditions call for jihad it is your duty to defend the religion of Allah and the muslim land whether you live on the moon or in the 73 century, period.

 

[Darackutny]

The atheists here are doing pretty good today. xD

 

[SmokyDave]

The atheists here are doing pretty good today. xD

List the atheists that are doing well today please. Provide usernames. Backup your assertion.

 

[Darackutny]

List the atheists that are doing well today please. Provide usernames. Backup your assertion.

Well, more like the Muslims around here are doing so bad. Take this argument for example:

Two small examples that show how things in Islam are different from place and time, Jihad follows it. Jihad back in the times of the prophet was like what you pointed out, but now its quiet different. Jihad means struggle, struggle one's self and the society. In the first example about the Muslim person going to America for education is considered Jihad believe it or not. Helping kids grow up is Jihad, getting married is Jihad, building houses for the homeless is Jihad, and telling you about this is jihad. Those are some examples of what Jihad is.

That's a very bad counter argument to what is being said since both forms of jihad have existed in both our times and the time of Mohammed. Also, as Nizar has pointed out, the discussion is revolving around "jihad for the sake of Allah", which is also known as the physical jihad.

It is also classified as the sixth pillar of Islam by Sunni scholars among shahada, praying, fasting, zakah and hajj.

Like whom exactly?

 

[Anaxagoras]

It is also classified as the sixth pillar of Islam by Sunni scholars among shahada, praying, fasting, zakah and hajj.

Like whom exactly?

Please rephrase your question because I really don't understand what you mean.

 

[Darackutny]

It is also classified as the sixth pillar of Islam by Sunni scholars among shahada, praying, fasting, zakah and hajj.

Which specific Sunni scholars are you talking about?

 

[Anaxagoras]

Which specific Sunni scholars are you talking about?

Sorry, I couldn't find anything on the internet that quotes scholars stating that it is the sixth pillar of Islam, anyhow, I myself was brought up in saudi arabia and was taught that it is considered the sixth pillar, there are many scholars that share this view such as Yusuf al-Qaradawi, one of the leading muslim scholars alive today, but again, I couldn't find anything that supports this argument.

However, here is an excerpt from wikipedias article on Jihad:
A minority among the Sunni scholars sometimes refer to this duty as the sixth pillar of Islam, though it occupies no such official status.[3] In Twelver Shi'a Islam, however, Jihad is one of the 10 Practices of the Religion.

Even if jihad did not deserve a position in the pillars of Islam according to the majority of scholars, it is still a duty for all muslim, jihad has also been mentioned in the Quran more than a 100 hundred times, here are a few verses for example:

''Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress limits…191And slay them wherever ye catch them. and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution is worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they (first) fight you there; But if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. 192 But if they cease, Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. 193And fight them on until there is no more persecution. And the religion becomes Allah’s. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression 194 The sacred month is for the sacred month and for the prohibited things there is the Law of Equality. Then whoever transgresses the prohibition against you, you likewise transgress him. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is with the pious.''

(Quran, verse 2:190-194)

'' Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.''

(Quran, verse 9:29)

''O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).''

(Quran, verse 9:123)

''And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.''

(Quran, verse 2:193)

''And wage war on all of the idolaters as they are waging war on all of you''

(Quran, verse 9:36)

''O ye who believe! Shall I show you a commerce that will save you from a painful doom? (10) Ye should believe in Allah and His messenger, and should strive for the cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives. That is better for you, if ye did but know. (11) He will forgive you your sins and bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, and pleasant dwellings in Gardens of Eden. That is the supreme triumph. (12) And (He will give you) another blessing which ye love: help from Allah and present victory. Give good tidings (O Muhammad) to believers.''

(Quran, verse 61:10-13)

What the word Jihad really means in Arabic plays no important role in this discussion for it is what Jihad is that matters here, remember that Hitler’s book was titled Mein Kampf or My Struggle, and his struggle resulted in drenching Europe with blood and killing millions of innocent people who were not of the Master Race, a very similar result to that of Islam's struggle if you ask me.

The fact that Jihad is divided into four different categories, which are Jihad against one's self (Jihad al-Nafs), Jihad of the tongue (Jihad al-lisan), Jihad of the hand (Jihad al-yad), and Jihad of the sword (Jihad as-sayf), does in no way makes the militant jihad in Islam less violent.

 

[Darackutny]

Sorry, I couldn't find anything on the internet that quotes scholars stating that it is the sixth pillar of Islam, anyhow, I myself was brought up in saudi arabia and was taught that it is considered the sixth pillar, there are many scholars that share this view such as Yusuf al-Qaradawi, one of the leading muslim scholars alive today, but again, I couldn't find anything that supports this argument.

How long did you spend in Saudi Arabia? I'd also appreciate if you avoided bringing up Al-Qaradawi as an authority when we discuss these matters since I don't regard him as one.

However, here is an excerpt from wikipedias article on Jihad:
A minority among the Sunni scholars sometimes refer to this duty as the sixth pillar of Islam, though it occupies no such official status.[3] In Twelver Shi'a Islam, however, Jihad is one of the 10 Practices of the Religion.

I'd also appreciate if you didn't bring Shiasm into this. You might as well start an "Islam supports prostitution" thread while you're at it.

Even if jihad did not deserve a position in the pillars of Islam according to the majority of scholars, it is still a duty for all muslim, jihad has also been mentioned in the Quran more than a 100 hundred times,

...yes, and? I haven't objected to the existence of jihad in Islam. The only reason I asked earlier about whether you knew which Sunni scholars made that statement is to test your credibility, that was all.

...and more than a hundred times is a major exaggeration.

 

[Anaxagoras]

How long did you spend in Saudi Arabia? I'd also appreciate if you avoided bringing up Al-Qaradawi as an authority when we discuss these matters since I don't regard him as one.

I'd also appreciate if you didn't bring Shiasm into this. You might as well start an "Islam supports prostitution" thread while you're at it.

In this thread we are not discussing who you agree with and who you dont, neither are we discussing your own understanding of Islam, we are discussing Islam as a whole and all the denominations are part of Islam whether you personally accept them or not, hence this is ''Official Islamic thread'' and not the ''Official Sunni Muslims thread''.

...yes, and? I haven't objected to the existence of jihad in Islam. The only reason I asked earlier about whether you knew which Sunni scholars made that statement is to test your credibility, that was all.

...and more than a hundred times is a major exaggeration.

Each of the 164 Jihad verses in this list was selected based on how clearly and directly it spoke about Jihad, at least when considered in its immediate context. Most of the listed passages mention a military expedition, fighting, or distributing war spoils. Verses NOT generally listed are those that speak about aspects of Jihad other than the raiding, fighting and looting, such as:

* Muhammad's poor opinion of those who did not go on Jihad, even though they were able-bodied and able financially (for instance, some verses in K 009:081-096),
* The heavenly rewards for Jihadists, and
* The many generic mentions of "victory" found in the Koran.

The Koran’s 164 Jihad Verses:
K 002:178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244; 003:121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167,169, 172-173, 195; 004:071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095,100-104; 005:033, 035, 082; 008:001, 005, 007, 009-010, 012, 015-017, 039-048,057-060, 065-075; 009:005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029,036, 038-039, 041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 083,086, 088, 092, 111, 120, 122-123; 016:110; 022:039, 058, 078; 024:053, 055; 025:052; 029:006, 069; 033:015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050; 042:039; 047:004, 020, 035; 048:015-024; 049:015; 059:002, 005-008, 014; 060:009; 061:004, 011, 013; 063:004; 064:014; 066:009; 073:020; 076:008

Full list of the verses can be found here:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html

____________________________________________________

Since this discussion is moving pretty slow and I want to move on to equality between the two genders in Islam, I will post this comment in the defense of modern day Muslims:

All of these 164 verses that speak of militant Jihad in the Quran are used out of context, I don't know how to explain this to you in English, but Islam is nothing like that, Islam is a peaceful religion ....

The only way to prove that these verses are used out of context is to prove that they are used out of context, claims and own understandings of Islam won't help at all.

For in this discussion your own understanding of Islam plays no important role because I too can make my own peaceful understanding of Nazism for example, but this in no way makes Nazism and what Hitler has practiced against the Jews non violent.

Has anybody got anything to add before we move on?

 

[Darackutny]

In this thread we are not discussing who you agree with and who you dont, neither are we discussing your own understanding of Islam, we are discussing Islam as a whole and all the denominations are part of Islam whether you personally accept them or not, hence this is ''Official Islamic thread'' and not the ''Official Sunni Muslims thread''.

Well, that's a pretty senseless way of conducting a discussion... Unless you focus on a certain group, you won't get anywhere since your evidence will not be sufficient in the eyes of another sect. As you are aware, there are a lot of Islamic sects out there that disagree to the very core in even the most basic matters such as their very own respective authoritative texts. Unfortunately for you, your message is going to be lost in the sauce unless you specifically direct a certain group.

Each of the 164 Jihad verses in this list was selected based on how clearly and directly it spoke about Jihad, at least when considered in its immediate context. Most of the listed passages mention a military expedition, fighting, or distributing war spoils.

As you are aware, the Qur'an was revealed throughout the lifetime of Mohammed. Much of the verses quoted occurs during the Madina period during which much of his military expeditions took place. The revelation of the Qur'an did occur during these times as well. It is no major surprise that a large number of verses would mention resistance, war, and physical struggles.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Well, that's a pretty senseless way of conducting a discussion... Unless you focus on a certain group, you won't get anywhere since your evidence will not be sufficient in the eyes of another sect. As you are aware, there are a lot of Islamic sects out there that disagree to the very core in even the most basic matters such as their very own respective authoritative texts. Unfortunately for you, your message is going to be lost in the sauce unless you specifically direct a certain group.

Senseless in your opinion, my group of choice is Islam as a whole, because that is what we are discussing here, going deeper into denominations and even deeper into smaller groups and scholars won't be really discussing Islam but the specific chosen understanding of Islam.

I am not willing to find out where each and every participant in this discussion stands on each and every issue in order to debate it with him, I will be as objective as possible and will base most if not all of my facts on the quran, if I write something that you disagree with, you are free to disagree with it AND point out why you believe its incorrect.

As you are aware, the Qur'an was revealed throughout the lifetime of Mohammed. Much of the verses quoted occurs during the Madina period during which much of his military expeditions took place. The revelation of the Qur'an did occur during these times as well. It is no major surprise that a large number of verses would mention resistance, war, and physical struggles.

.. So? does this makes it a less/non -violent religion?

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Anyway, here is a different way to tackle the subject so you guys can't use the fact that you agree with this scholar and disagree with that as an excuse for not being able to answer my questions:

The prophet Mohammad and his Muslim followers fought and slaughtered the nonmuslims because Allah asked them in the Quran to do so, [look at the top of the page for the verses], now whether the Muslims actions were justified, unjustified, wanted, needed, deserved, accepted by both sides, accepted by neither, it doesn't change the fact that they have committed violence!

In other words, Islam asks its followers to commit violence [Jihad], which makes it a violent religion.

Now whether the actions of the mojahedeen [Jihadists] are looked on by other muslims as nonviolent, it doesn't change the fact they are violent, for opinion has no impact on truth, here is an example to explain why: no matter how many people believe that earth is flat, or justify that it is flat, it will not change the truth that earth round, the same applies to Prophet Mohammads actions and what Allah is asking him and the Muslims to do, violence.

This means that one can not claim that Islam is a peaceful religion when Jihad is part of it.

 

[LordAzrael]

I'm really not sure why the atheists in this thread are putting up so much of a fight. If you could reason with religious nutcases, they wouldn't exist in the first place.

 

[GSG Flash]

I'd also appreciate if you didn't bring Shiasm into this. You might as well start an "Islam supports prostitution" thread while you're at it.

Heh, already got your potshot against Shias, Hadji? Why don't you focus on Nizar's arguments instead? Then again, I should know not to expect too much from a wahabbi.

And I disagree with basically everything Nizar is saying, but he is accusing the core beliefs of Islam of being violent, not Shia beliefs or Sunni beliefs (who, when you go down to the core, both have the same beliefs).

Maybe you should bring a valid argument against Nizar before criticizing other Muslims in this thread for bringing invalid arguments. Atleast they're making an attempt whereas you just sit there on your hands, breathing with your mouth open, waiting to take your potshot on shias.

 

[Instigator]

I'm really not sure why the atheists in this thread are putting up so much of a fight. If you could reason with religious nutcases, they wouldn't exist in the first place.

It's just one guy in this thread.

 

[Iknos]

Has anybody got anything to add before we move on?

Yeah your arguments are illogical.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Yeah your arguments are illogical.

I challenge you to prove that they are.

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And kids, stop fighting and focus on my arguments.