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[Iknos]

I challenge you to prove that they are.

Your very first post in this thread.

To prove this I challenge you or in fact anyone else to prove a single verse from the quran that the Al-Qaida has misinterpreted, again, there are different interpretations but there is nothing that proves that this understanding that they are having is incorrect.

Look up "Corroboration".

Quick question wise man:
Is any of this happening in Palestine? Afghanistan? Kosovo? Somalia? Iraq?

If your answer is yes then what Alqaida, Hizbulla and Hammas are doing is 100% Islamic.

You attempt to equate terrorism with the idea of fighting for one's freedom.

The rest of your posts are just as bad.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Look up "Corroboration".

I hear you, Go on..

You attempt to equate terrorism with the idea of fighting for one's freedom.

I am not talking about their right to defend themselves, I am discussing whether what they are doing is Islamic or not.

What we are discussing here is Jihad, it is part of Islam, and it is the muslims duty to commit violent acts in the name of Allah, and therefore Islam can not be considered a peaceful religion.

Whether this violence is justified due to the fact that they are fighting for their land, property, freedom or chicks, it is still violence!

The rest of your posts are just as bad.

Quit the bullshit and debate like an adult.

 

[Iknos]

I am not talking about their right to defend themselves, I am discussing whether what they are doing is Islamic or not.

What do you mean by "what they are doing"?

How old are you?

 

[crazy monkey]

What we are discussing here is Jihad, it is part of Islam, and it is the muslims duty to commit violent acts in the name of Allah, and therefore Islam can not be considered a peaceful religion.

Hi, What the hell are you talking about? You are saying its muslim duty to commit violence?
Fucker if that's the case there are billions of muslims and every one with your logic should just start murdering.

Whether this violence is justified due to the fact that they are fighting for their land, property, freedom or chicks, it is still violence!

I also need to ask where did you grow up? I would guess some where nice and peaceful, where you never had seen violence. Grow up dude. you have not seen the world yet I guess.

 

[Anaxagoras]

What do you mean by "what they are doing"?

How old are you?

The Jihadists, is what they are doing Islamic or not?

Fighting the nonmuslims obviously.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Hi, What the hell are you talking about? You are saying its muslim duty to commit violence?
Fucker if that's the case there are billions of muslims and every one with your logic should just start murdering.

I also need to ask where did you grow up? I would guess some where nice and peaceful, where you never had seen violence. Grow up dude. you have not seen the world yet I guess.

This discussion is neither about me nor about where I was brought up, it is about Islam.

Do you mean that Allah in the Quran does not ask the muslims to commit violence?

 

[SmokyDave]

Can someone, preferably Nizar, explain the concept of Taqiyya to me please?

Sorry, I should be more specific, I have read the Wiki page but I'm wondering if it has a place in modern islam and ideally I'd like some contemporary examples.

 

[Ydahs]

What we are discussing here is Jihad, it is part of Islam, and it is the muslims duty to commit violent acts in the name of Allah, and therefore Islam can not be considered a peaceful religion.

Well, saying whether something is peaceful or not is really subjective. If you compare the amount of peace in the religion with the amount of violence, it is clear that peace outwieghs violence in Islam. As a result of this, one can argue Islam is a peaceful religion with few violent ideologies (oxymoron, I know).

The Jihadists, is what they are doing Islamic or not?

Fighting the nonmuslims obviously.

Which "Jihadists" are you referring to? Example? If your talking about terrorists their actions are condemned by a majority of scholars worldwide.

Also, for the discussion about gender equality, I feel it's not a good idea to bring it up on GAF. The particular topic has a history in this forum, with several people being banned by stating an Islamic perspective on the topic. It's unfair since Muslims will not be able to defend themselves without the fear of the looming banhammer.

Can someone, preferably Nizar, explain the concept of Taqiyya to me please?

Sorry, I should be more specific, I have read the Wiki page but I'm wondering if it has a place in modern islam and ideally I'd like some contemporary examples.

What exactly do you mean by "modern Islam"? Anyway, it's really simple. One can say they are not Muslim if doing so will bring them harm. For example, if a Muslim was kidnapped and the kidnapper threatened to kill them if they said they were Muslim, God wouldn't punish him or her for saying they are not.

 

[SmokyDave]

What exactly do you mean by "modern Islam"? Anyway, it's really simple. One can say they are not Muslim if doing so will bring them harm. For example, if a Muslim was kidnapped and the kidnapper threatened to kill them if they said they were Muslim, God wouldn't punish him or her for saying they are not.

Thank you for your swift reply. I'm not articulating myself very well. I guess what I'm asking is why does this concept even exist? Wouldn't it be common sense to conceal your religious identity in circumstances that demand it? Surely Allah would be able to look into your heart and understand your reasons for denying him. It isn't really important, I just found the concept intriguing.

 

[Ydahs]

Thank you for your swift reply. I'm not articulating myself very well. I guess what I'm asking is why does this concept even exist? Wouldn't it be common sense to conceal your religious identity in circumstances that demand it? Surely Allah would be able to look into your heart and understand your reasons for denying him. It isn't really important, I just found the concept intriguing.

Many of the teachings of the Prophet were revealed becuase of the questions his followers, so I'm assuming (don't quote me on this) that this concept was revealed to inform the confused that under such circumstances, religious concealment is an option and wouldn't result in a sin.

Though I think Islam also teaches that if one dies in such a situation becuase they refused to lie about their belief, it's considered jihad and is like dying as a martyr. Again, don't quote me on this, but I'm sure it's along the lines.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Well, saying whether something is peaceful or not is really subjective.

Finally a decent debater from the Muslims side. Although me and you do not seem to agree, I do respect you more than most of the Muslims in this thread for being honest and straight forward in your responses.

Now to my response:
Whether you call it subjective or objective, I believe that most people today consider the act of killing a man whether it was just, deserved, accepted or needed a violent act, and that is my point.

If you compare the amount of peace in the religion with the amount of violence, it is clear that peace outwieghs violence in Islam.

I would prefer to describe it as partially peaceful and partially violent, this of course without including the Sharia punishments in the equation.

Now just because the peaceful part of Islam out weights the violent part, it in no way eliminates the violent part out of Islam, it still exists no matter how small it is, which to be honest is not small at all.

Take earths surface for example, no matter how much of its surface is covered by water, a good part of it is covered by land, and thus claiming that earth's surface is fully covered by water is a false statement.

Therefore when one is describing Islam as a whole, one can not claim that it is a peaceful religion.

As a result of this, one can argue Islam is a peaceful religion with few violent ideologies (oxymoron, I know).

Well, if you want to exclude The prophet Mohammed and his followers actions, how Islam was spread, the Sharia and the verses in the Quran that speak of Jihad and the other violent actions such as the one where Allah asks the Muslim men to beat their wives if they rebel them, then Islam is not a violent religion.

Which "Jihadists" are you referring to? Example? If your talking about terrorists their actions are condemned by a majority of scholars worldwide.

You pick, Hammas for example, are their actions Islamic?

Also, for the discussion about gender equality, I feel it's not a good idea to bring it up on GAF. The particular topic has a history in this forum, with several people being banned by stating an Islamic perspective on the topic. It's unfair since Muslims will not be able to defend themselves without the fear of the looming banhammer.

I will look into that.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Thank you for your swift reply. I'm not articulating myself very well. I guess what I'm asking is why does this concept even exist? Wouldn't it be common sense to conceal your religious identity in circumstances that demand it? Surely Allah would be able to look into your heart and understand your reasons for denying him. It isn't really important, I just found the concept intriguing.

Ydas answer pretty much is correct, it just points out that in such circumstances it is ok to claim that you are not a Muslim to defend yourself from mental or physical harm.

 

[SmokyDave]

Ydas answer pretty much is correct, it just points out that in such circumstances it is ok to claim that you are not a Muslim to defend yourself from mental or physical harm.

Cheers.

As for the Islamic perspective on gender equality, the fact it cannot be discussed on this forum kind of says it all I reckon. Here is the last guy I remember...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/member.php?u=13186 - Castle007. I can't find the thread that caused the banning but it involved the acceptable severity to use when beating ones wife. Uh-huh.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Cheers.

As for the Islamic perspective on gender equality, the fact it cannot be discussed on this forum kind of says it all I reckon. Here is the last guy I remember...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/member.php?u=13186 - Castle007. I can't find the thread that caused the banning but it involved the acceptable severity to use when beating ones wife. Uh-huh.

Thanks for the help, I have also noticed that a couple of members were banned two pages back in this thread but never figured out why.

 

[crazy monkey]

This discussion is neither about me nor about where I was brought up, it is about Islam.

Do you mean that Allah in the Quran does not ask the muslims to commit violence?

Hi,

I asked about you because your view are so single minded and one dimensional that its not possible you are from country where you might have suffered any thing.

I asked you about your age because you talk immaturely. Every verse in quran has he meaning behind it. Every verse was reveled at specific point of time.

Just like in bible and Torah Quran has violence in it. It is basic human nature believe it or not. Quran just lilke bible and torah condemns killing of innocent too. You can not define the religion by saying oh look at that it says to kill it must be the most barbaric religion. people spend whole life to understand the religion and still can't.

 

[crazy monkey]

How would you interpret a verse like this (And slay them wherever ye catch them…)? (Al-Baqarah 2: 191) and (…But if they turn away, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks) (An-Nisaa' 4: 89


http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544502

In the first place, we would like to stress that when we Muslims state that Islam is a religion of peace, we are not trying to prove something unreasonable or solve a crossword puzzle. Rather, we are just stating a fact backed by clear-cut evidence and unquestionable proofs. Even we don’t need to state this fact, for Islam, in itself, is self-explanatory, in terms of its meaning, its noble teachings and the core of its message conveyed by the Prophets Allah sent to mankind.

Shedding more light on this issue, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, President of the Fiqh Council ofNorth America, states the following:

Thank you very much for your kind words that you do not hate Muslims. Hate is not good for any person. I want to assure you that we Muslims also do not hate non-Muslims, be they Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist or followers of any religion or no religion. Our religion does not allow killing any innocent person regardless of his or her religion. The life of all human beings is sacrosanct according to the teachings of the Qur’an and the guidance of our blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and upon all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah).

The Qur’an says about the prohibition of murder, (…Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.) (Al-An`am 6: 151) and Allah says in the Qur’an, (Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)) (Al-Israa’ 17: 33). According to the Qur’an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See Al-Ma’idah 5: 32)

However, your question is valid, then how come the Qur’an says, (kill them wherever you find them…) as it is mentioned in Surah Al-Baqarah 2: 191 and Surah An-Nisaa’ 4: 89. The answer is simple and that is, you should read these verses in their textual and historical context. You should read the whole verse and it is better that you read few verses before and few after. Read the full text and see what is said:

(Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.) (Al-Baqarah 2: 190-194)

For your second quotation also read the full text:

(They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.?w (An-Nisaa’ 4: 89-91)

Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”. These verses are not a permission for “terrorism” but they are a warning against the “terrorists.” But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized.

It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate these verses for their own goals. But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context. These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.

Let me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament and tell me what do you say about them:

“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:

“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Luke 19:26-27)

 

[crazy monkey]

Any religion is not as simple as just right and wrong.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Hi,

I asked about you because your view are so single minded and one dimensional that its not possible you are from country where you might have suffered any thing.

I spent more than ten years of my life in Saudi Arabia, now lets focus on the topic.

I asked you about your age because you talk immaturely. Every verse in quran has he meaning behind it. Every verse was reveled at specific point of time.

So you mean that the violence committed in Allah's name is justified, is this supposed to make it nonviolent?

Just like in bible and Torah Quran has violence in it. It is basic human nature believe it or not. Quran just lilke bible and torah condemns killing of innocent too.

I am not discussing the bible, the Torah and the human nature, I am discussing Islam.

Whether all of the mentioned above are violent it does not change the fact that Islam is violent too.

You can not define the religion by saying oh look at that it says to kill it must be the most barbaric religion.

I didn't say that it is but while we are at it, can you say why?

people spend whole life to understand the religion and still can't.

Do you mean that I need to study Islam my whole life in order to point out that it has its violent parts too?

EDIT: I am going out to do something, will reply to your other comments when I am back

 

[crazy monkey]

I spent more than ten years of my life in Saudi Arabia, now lets focus on the topic.

Ha, This is all I needed and this is the reason you are the way you are. you have spent ten years in one of the worst countries in the world. There you go. now I understand why you think the way you are thinking. Just to let you know Saudi Arabia does not represent Islam. Those fucker won't even give trial to anybody. Or if you are woman you have no right what so ever. Its not the same every where.

By the way did you read the other post I posted regarding quotes of islam.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Ha, This is all I needed and this is the reason you are the way you are. you have spent ten years in one of the worst countries in the world. There you go. now I understand why you think the way you are thinking. Just to let you know Saudi Arabia does not represent Islam. Those fucker won't even give trial to anybody. Or if you are woman you have no right what so ever. Its not the same every where.

It is funny how you ignored everything else I wrote to you and only responded to the fact that I was brought up in Saudi Arabia, this is why I try to answer only the questions that are related to Islam.

The fact that I am brought up in Saudi Arabia has nothing to do with discussion and I do recommend you to focus on the main topic or I will have to ignore you.

This fact also does not change any of the statements that I have made about Islam, I have never claimed that I do agree with them nor have I claimed that what they are practicing is the true Islam.

Debate me like a man and prove my arguments false.

By the way did you read the other post I posted regarding quotes of islam.

I am back, and I will read it now.

 

[crazy monkey]

I am back, and I will read it now.

ok read it than come back

 

[Anaxagoras]

How would you interpret a verse like this (And slay them wherever ye catch them…)? (Al-Baqarah 2: 191) and (…But if they turn away, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks) (An-Nisaa' 4: 89


http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544502

In the first place, we would like to stress that when we Muslims state that Islam is a religion of peace, we are not trying to prove something unreasonable or solve a crossword puzzle. Rather, we are just stating a fact backed by clear-cut evidence and unquestionable proofs. Even we don’t need to state this fact, for Islam, in itself, is self-explanatory, in terms of its meaning, its noble teachings and the core of its message conveyed by the Prophets Allah sent to mankind.

Shedding more light on this issue, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, President of the Fiqh Council ofNorth America, states the following:

Thank you very much for your kind words that you do not hate Muslims. Hate is not good for any person. I want to assure you that we Muslims also do not hate non-Muslims, be they Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist or followers of any religion or no religion. Our religion does not allow killing any innocent person regardless of his or her religion. The life of all human beings is sacrosanct according to the teachings of the Qur’an and the guidance of our blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and upon all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah).

The Qur’an says about the prohibition of murder, (…Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.) (Al-An`am 6: 151) and Allah says in the Qur’an, (Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)) (Al-Israa’ 17: 33). According to the Qur’an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See Al-Ma’idah 5: 32)

However, your question is valid, then how come the Qur’an says, (kill them wherever you find them…) as it is mentioned in Surah Al-Baqarah 2: 191 and Surah An-Nisaa’ 4: 89. The answer is simple and that is, you should read these verses in their textual and historical context. You should read the whole verse and it is better that you read few verses before and few after. Read the full text and see what is said:

(Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.) (Al-Baqarah 2: 190-194)

For your second quotation also read the full text:

(They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.?w (An-Nisaa’ 4: 89-91)

Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”. These verses are not a permission for “terrorism” but they are a warning against the “terrorists.” But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized.

It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate these verses for their own goals. But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context. These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.

Let me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament and tell me what do you say about them:

“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:

“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Luke 19:26-27)

First, I would have had more respect for you if you debated this matter using your own words instead of googling answers and pasting quotes in this discussion. however, I will take this challenge and respond to Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, President of the Fiqh Council ofNorth America.

Second, This website that you are quoting from is founded by Yusuf al-Qaradawi, who I have been asked by participants in this thread to keep him out of the discussion, funny how people seem to agree with him now when they are cornered.

Now to my response:
So? :lol
Did you read this text before you brought it up on the table and force me to read it? If so What did it manage to contribute to this discussion?

Does it change the fact that Jihad is a duty in Islam?
Does it change the fact that Mohammad and his Muslim followers killed the nonmuslims in Mecca with the sword?
Does it change the fact that Allah asks Mohammad and the Muslims to engage in violent acts?

The answer is no, the only thing it succeeded in doing is clarifying why these verses exist in the Quran and justifying the violent actions of Mohammad and his Muslims followers.

For the tenth time in this page, violence is still violence whether justified, needed, accepted, reasoned or clarified.

The fact that Islam is not the only religion that contains its good part of violence does not make it in any way non violent.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Any religion is not as simple as just right and wrong.

If it claims that it is the true and perfect word of God that is error free, unedited and saved in the perfect form, then it can be as simple as that.

 

[crazy monkey]

First, I would have had more respect for you if you debated this matter using your own words instead of googling answers and pasting quotes in this discussion. however, I will take this challenge and respond to Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, President of the Fiqh Council ofNorth America.

Second, This website that you are quoting from is founded by Yusuf al-Qaradawi, who I have been asked by participants in this thread to keep him out of the discussion, funny how people seem to agree with him now when they are cornered.

You used the other website to state your point I found this one to state mine.

Now to my response:
So? :lol

Very mature and thought ful

Did you read this text before you brought it up on the table and force me to read it? If so What did it manage to contribute to this discussion?

Yes I have and that's why I suggested you to read.

Does it change the fact that Jihad is a duty in Islam?

I don't think you even know meaning of jihad. There is so many meaning You can do jihad even getting educated is Jihad. Fighting to protect your self and family will of course be considered jihad. weather my religion tells me or not if some one comes and tries to kill my family or my country man what do you think I will do.

Does it change the fact that Mohammad and his Muslim followers killed the nonmuslims in Mecca with the sword?

Yes they did. So? Would you like me to say?

Does it change the fact that Allah asks Mohammad and the Muslims to engage in violent acts?

See this is where you are single minded. If this the case why I am sitting here not killing anyone. I should just go out and every single muslim according to your logic and kill some one.

The answer is no, the only thing it succeeded in doing is clarifying why these verses exist in the Quran and justifying the violent actions of Mohammad and his Muslims followers.

It does not justify it. You have not read it properly I guess. And it also gives example from other religion where violence is promoted. God in bible and torah and Quran is one if you don't know that yet.

For the tenth time in this page, violence is still violence whether justified, needed, accepted, reasoned or clarified.

The fact that Islam is not the only religion that contains its good part of violence does not make it in any way non violent.

You are right violence is violence but you might not have ever been in situation where you have seen violence. Saudi arebia is fucked up country where they kill anyone they like. I was in india and during riots I have seen so many people including my relative die.
During riots when the mob came to our society to kill everyone do you think we just sat there?

circumstance changes lots of thing in real life. Islam is not a peaceful religion or is it violent. It is a religion. Just like every other religion. If you don't like religion than its a different story.

 

[Lucky Forward]

Punk meets Islam for new generation in U.S.

The guitarist stands in front of a mirror messing with his mohawk. The drummer strikes a wild tempo. The singer rips off his T-shirt and begins to scream the lyrics.

They're young. They're punk. And they're rocking both their Muslim and American worlds with their music, lyrics and style.

"A lot of times people say, 'Oh wow, look, brown people playing music' [but] it's more than that," said 25-year-old Pakistani-American Shahjehan Khan, the lead singer for a Muslim punk band, The Kominas.

The Boston-based band is one of a handful of Muslim punk bands that emerged in the United States in the past few years.

The members of this four-person rock group with South Asian roots hold varying views on religion. One says he's an atheist; three others identify as Muslims -- both practicing and non-practicing. For them, punk music is a way to rebel against their conservative cultural upbringing and the frustrations of growing up a young Muslim in America.

"We aren't [just] some alternative to a stereotypical Muslim. We actually might be offering some sort of insights for people at large about religion, about the world," said 26-year-old bassist Basim Usmani.

Blending traditional South Asian rhythms with punk rock beats, they sing in both English and Punjabi. (Kominas means "scum-bag" in Punjabi, according to the band.) Their songs can be at once political, serious, satirical and insinuating.

Their risqué lyrics and provocative song titles such as "Sharia Law in the USA," "Suicide Bomb the GAP" and "Rumi was a Homo" -- a protest song against homophobia in the American Muslim community -- have drawn the attention of Muslims, non-Muslims, fans and critics alike.

"You sort of have to throw it in peoples' faces and be shocking in order to give people a different way to think about stuff," said Usmani.

Many conservative Muslims may peg young taqwacores as heretic for their suggestive and irreverent lyrics. But the musicians say they are just trying to show both cultures how broad the spectrum of belief can be.

Like many young adults balancing their religious beliefs with American culture, some young Muslims in the United States say it's a constant struggle to be accepted in both worlds.

"I had a lot of conflicted feelings growing up a Muslim in America," said 25-year-old Kominas drummer Imran Malik. "It was hard not being able to do the same things that everyone else around you is doing without feeling guilty about them."

Knight, who grew up with a Catholic mother and white supremacist father, converted to Islam when he was 16. He said his message is not one of blasphemy but rather an extension of his discontent with the rigid etiquette that dictates certain practices within Islam and the stereotypes of Muslims in American.

"Muslims haven't been fully accepted as Americans but the American experience hasn't been accepted as something that can contribute to the Muslim world," said Knight.

 

[crazy monkey]

:lol

 

[Anaxagoras]

You used the other website to state your point I found this one to state mine.

First, I did not provide arguments quoted from other websites, I linked to that website because it had all the verses that speak of jihad in one single page for those who are interested in reading them.

Second, my point was more directed towards Darackutny to prove that his demands won't work in such a discussion.

Very mature and thought ful

Thank you!

Yes I have and that's why I suggested you to read.

Then that should mean that you yourself didn't understand the text or you are not paying attention to what is and has been discussed in this page.

I don't think you even know meaning of jihad. There is so many meaning You can do jihad even getting educated is Jihad. Fighting to protect your self and family will of course be considered jihad. weather my religion tells me or not if some one comes and tries to kill my family or my country man what do you think I will do.

We are not talking about self defense here, we are talking about Jihad in Islam.

Yes they did. So? Would you like me to say?

Good to hear that you admit that Mohammad and his Muslim followers killed the nonmuslims of mecca with the sword in the name of Allah.
Now is what they have committed considered violence?

See this is where you are single minded. If this the case why I am sitting here not killing anyone. I should just go out and every single muslim according to your logic and kill some one.

You, your actions and the muslims actions is not what is being discussed here, Islam is what is being discussed.

So do you mean that a religion should be judged by the actions of its followers?

It does not justify it. You have not read it properly I guess.

Quoting from your own text:
''at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”.''

And it also gives example from other religion where violence is promoted. God in bible and torah and Quran is one if you don't know that yet.

So do you mean that because they share the same God thus the violent acts that they preach on are considered nonviolent?

You are right violence is violence but you might not have ever been in situation where you have seen violence. Saudi arebia is fucked up country where they kill anyone they like. I was in india and during riots I have seen so many people including my relative die.
During riots when the mob came to our society to kill everyone do you think we just sat there?

Irrelevant.

circumstance changes lots of thing in real life. Islam is not a peaceful religion or is it violent. It is a religion. Just like every other religion.

So do you mean that religions can not be violent because they are religions?

If you don't like religion than its a different story.

So if I do not like religions then my arguments are false?

 

[crazy monkey]

So does this mean that the fact that there are four different categories of Jihad should make militant Jihad less/non -violent?

When did I say that?

Good to hear that you admit that Mohammad and his Muslim followers killed the nonmuslims of mecca with the sword in the name of Allah.
Now is what they have committed considered violence?



You, your actions and the muslims actions is not what is being discussed here, Islam is what is being discussed.

This is the reason I gave you my own example. Do you think when riots where happening innocent people where not being killed? of course they were. Do you think Muslim as well as non-Muslim committed crimes, of course they did.

So do you mean that a religion should be judged by the actions of its followers?

Nop, You can't one maniac goes out and rapes some one, will you blame his religion for doing what he did? There are many news story posted here where the murderer will tell media that it was god that told him to murder do you think he really did? Or may be they are psycho

Quoting from your own text:
''at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”.''

Sure , its justified right here. What will you do? or what does other religion or non religion say in this matter?

So do you mean that because they share the same God thus the violent acts that they preach on are considered nonviolent?



So do you mean that religions can not be violent because they are religions?



So if I do not like religions then my arguments are false?

I am saying all major ( Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism) religion are violent in one way or other.

you need to tell me what do you want to prove?

All religions are violent?

Do all religion promote violence?

Do all religion suck?

Just let me know what is it that you want to prove?

People have killed inoocent in the name of religion?

 

[Anaxagoras]

When did I say that?

Your own words here:
''I don't think you even know meaning of jihad. There is so many meaning You can do jihad even getting educated is Jihad. Fighting to protect your self and family will of course be considered jihad.''

my response:
How is this supposed to make militant Jihad less violent?
Is the fact that there are four different categories of jihad supposed to make militant Jihad less violent?

This is the reason I gave you my own example. Do you think when riots where happening innocent people where not being killed? of course they were. Do you think Muslim as well as non-Muslim committed crimes, of course they did.

What has this got to do with the discussion?

Nop, You can't one maniac goes out and rapes some one, will you blame his religion for doing what he did? There are many news story posted here where the murderer will tell media that it was god that told him to murder do you think he really did? Or may be they are psycho

Good, that was my point if you haven't realized it.
So how come you are claiming that Islam does not preach on violence simply because people like you and other Muslims are not committing violence?

Sure , its justified right here. What will you do? or what does other religion or non religion say in this matter?

I don't care about the justification because it is not relevant here, I just proved to you that I have read the text better than you did, the discussion here is whether Islam is a violent or a non violent religion.

I am saying all major ( Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism) religion are violent in one way or other.

So? how is this relevant? how does this make Islam a non violent religion?

you need to tell me what do you want to prove?

All religions are violent?

Do all religion promote violence?

Do all religion suck?

Just let me know what is it that you want to prove?

People have killed inoocent in the name of religion?

My argument is that Islam is not a peaceful religion as people here are claiming that it is.

 

[crazy monkey]

Your own words here:
''I don't think you even know meaning of jihad. There is so many meaning You can do jihad even getting educated is Jihad. Fighting to protect your self and family will of course be considered jihad.''

my response:
How is this supposed to make militant Jihad less violent?
Is the fact that there are four different categories of jihad supposed to make militant Jihad less violent?

When did i say Militant jihad is less violent? is there any other type of jihad more violent?

What has this got to do with the discussion?

I gave you the example in real life where religion was used to kill people.

So how come you are claiming that Islam does not preach on violence simply because people like you and other Muslims are not committing violence?

This is the problem. If Islam was saying just commit violence than everyone who follows it will do. It does not. Does it talk about it, yes. Does is it say in what situation what happened and what is suggested? yes.

My argument is that Islam is not a peaceful religion as people here are claiming that it is.

This is all you wanted? Well all religions have trace of violent. Every single one of them.

It is not just as black and white as you might think.

Do people who don't follow don't commit violence? yes they do it too.

Do animal commit violence oh yes they do. Now happy?

 

[Anaxagoras]

When did i say Militant jihad is less violent? is there any other type of jihad more violent?

You did not say that, you said that I don't even know what Jihad means, and you went on trying to explain that there are different categories of Jihad.

I thus presumed that you are using this argument in defense that Islam is a non violent religion, or else why would you have brought that up?

I gave you the example in real life where religion was used to kill people.

Ok, go on, and make your point clear please.

This is the problem. If Islam was saying just commit violence than everyone who follows it will do. It does not. Does it talk about it, yes. Does is it say in what situation what happened and what is suggested? yes.

I did not say that Islam asks its followers to kill everybody.

My point is that Jihad is part of the Quran, in the Quran Allah asks the Prophet Mohammad and the Muslims to commit violence [Kill] in his name in certain circumstances, thus Islam can not be considered a non violent religion.

This is all you wanted? Well all religions have trace of violent. Every single one of them.

For the third time, So? how is this relevant? how is this supposed to make Islam less violent?

It is not just as black and white as you might think.

Where did I say so?

Do people who don't follow don't commit violence? yes they do it too.

Do animal commit violence oh yes they do. Now happy?

What has this got to do with Islam? and how is this supposed to make it less/non - violent?

I never claimed that Islam is the only source of violence.

 

[crazy monkey]

You did not say that, you said that I don't even know what Jihad means, and you went on trying to explain that there are different categories of Jihad.

I thus presumed that you are using this argument in defense that Islam is a non violent religion, or else why would you have brought that up?

I brought that up to tell you that Violence is not the one and only definition of jihad. That's what everyone in west thinks.

For the third time, So? how is this relevant? how is this supposed to make Islam less violent?

When did want to make Islam less violent. I am saying it is as much violent as you want it to be and as much peaceful as you want it to be. Just like every other religion or belief. I guess more people want it to be peaceful since I don't see billion people going around killing everyone in their path.

 

[Anaxagoras]

I brought that up to tell you that Violence is not the one and only definition of jihad. That's what everyone in west thinks.

We are discussing Islam here, not what the west thinks of Jihad,focus on the topic here please.

I am arguing that Islam is not a peaceful religion hence it has its good parts of violence.
You are defending Islam, pointing fingers on other religions won't help you, justifying the violence won't help you, pointing out the different categories of Jihad won't help you, for non of this will in anyway make Islam less violent.

When did want to make Islam less violent. I am saying it is as much violent as you want it to be and as much peaceful as you want it to be. Just like every other religion or belief. I guess more people want it to be peaceful since I don't see billion people going around killing everyone in their path.

What is that even supposed to mean? have you lost your way through this discussion or what? So this time I am supposed to judge Islam based on its followers? weren't you against this a few posts back?

Answer this question:
Do you believe that Islam is a peaceful religion?

 

[crazy monkey]

What the hell are you talking about.

I told you your answer many times already. Non of the religion including are peaceful. All the religion including Islam are as peaceful as you want it to be and as violent as you want it to be.

Islam is not a person that comes to you and tell you Nizar please kill some one. I actually understood what you were saying and I tried to explain. I don't think you will understand since your way of thinking is very one dimensional and in no way can be changed. sorry for late reply had to go to pray.

 

[heidern]

Nizar, you need to clarify a couple of things if you want this discussion to get anywhere, do you believe:
a) Violence is bad in all cases
or
b) Violence is acceptable in some cases

If your answer is b), for convenience could you please give an example where you believe violence is acceptable.

Whether you call it subjective or objective, I believe that most people today consider the act of killing a man whether it was just, deserved, accepted or needed a violent act, and that is my point.

I am arguing that Islam is not a peaceful religion hence it has its good parts of violence.

You state that Islam is not a peaceful religion / is a violent religion. Are you also saying that this is a bad thing?

 

[phalestine]

Answer this question:
Do you believe that Islam is a peaceful religion?

Hope you dont mind if I just jump in, but Yes I do believe it is peaceful.

‏5:32 من اجل ذلك كتبنا على بني اسرائيل انه من قتل نفسا بغير نفس او فسادفي الارض فكانما قتل الناس جميعا ومن احياها فكانما احيا الناس جميعا ولقد جاءتهم رسلنا بالبينات ثم ان كثيرا منهم بعد ذلك في الارض لمسرفون

check it, 005:032 - The killing of a human being - unless the human being was a murderer or to stop disorder of the land - is as if he killed all of mankind.

- - Death Penalty - -
- - though not has harsh in todays society, it was the norm in those times, remember the quran was not written yesterday - -


I believe you said, killing of a human being whether it being deserves is still an act of violence, well by that logic, your argument should be the earth is a violent place, not Islam.
------------------------


Read up on the Prophets War and Principles and Regulations, He said that as they were ready to get into a battle that -
No Children, Women, Elderly, Monks, Hermits, Refugees be killed. No Person set on fire, no animal be killed, no trees cut down. Unlike your enemy, no nose or ears cut of. No injured be killed.


There are tons of non-believers who are children, women, non-combatants etc... and the prophet said do not kill them.

---------------------

Also, read up on the Battle of Badr(which was spoken in the quran), it was a battle where the Muslim Army won and took prisoners. The Prisoners were not killed, in fact they were treated better the the army (given food, rode on camels while the army walked), they were infidels in the eyes of the muslim army, and they were not killed.

--------------------

If the quran teaches to kill infidels, then please explain to me why Zimmi exists. also known as dhimmi.

-------------------

I might of mis-understood you earlier, but you said that if someone is "fighting for their land, freedom or chicks" its still considered violence. I beg to differ, Fighting for your land or freedom is not violence. Hamas are not fighting in the Name of Allah, they are fighting for their freedom.

 

[Darackutny]

And I disagree with basically everything Nizar is saying, but he is accusing the core beliefs of Islam of being violent, not Shia beliefs or Sunni beliefs (who, when you go down to the core, both have the same beliefs).

Maybe you should bring a valid argument against Nizar before criticizing other Muslims in this thread for bringing invalid arguments. Atleast they're making an attempt whereas you just sit there on your hands, breathing with your mouth open, waiting to take your potshot on shias.

Why are you even participating in this thread when you don't understand the basics of the differences in aqeedah between the two sects?! The reason I'm not arguing with Nizar is because he hasn't really committed any factual errors yet. There is violence in Islamic history, only an idiot with reject that. The only issue here is that we believe that it is justified and that Nizar doesn't care about our justification.

Subhanallah! Just go a couple of pages back to where I exposed your awkward Shia views a few pages ago?! Please respond to my arguments made in this post:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13894593&postcount=2189

Plus, I wasn't criticizing other Muslims, I just pointed out that he should direct his comments toward specific sects instead of Islam as a whole. However, he said that he's planning to focus on Qur'anic verses instead of anything else and I have no issue with that, so he may do as he pleases.

 

[crazy monkey]

I guess nizar went to sleep

 

[Darackutny]

I beg to differ, Fighting for your land or freedom is not violence.

...?!

How is fighting for land or freedom not a form of violence?! It is a form of violence, which one can find to be justified, but saying flat out that it isn't a form of violence doesn't make any sense.

My main issue in this thread is that the Muslims here are so defensive that they are freaking out upon reading the word 'jihad'. There is no doubt that it exists and will continue to exist. However, it revolves around one's interpretation of 'jihad' and I find it really freaky that some would deny a violent history just in order to make Islam look good.

 

[GSG Flash]

Why are you even participating in this thread when you don't understand the basics of the differences in aqeedah between the two sects?! The reason I'm not arguing with Nizar is because he hasn't really committed any factual errors yet. There is violence in Islamic history, only an idiot with reject that. The only issue here is that we believe that it is justified and that Nizar doesn't care about our justification.

So you honestly believe that there's a difference in the core aqidah of both Sunnis and Shias? If you truly believe that, then :lol :lol :lol

Please enlighten me, when it comes to the very basic roots(going more basic than the imams and the caliphs), what exactly is it that's different between sunni beliefs and shia beliefs?

And I don't really give a crap about your red herring arguments and debates from half a year ago, arguing with you is like arguing with APF, you're basically the extremist Saudi Muslim version of him.

And sure, Nizar's examples of history are accurate, Islam has a violent and bloody past, as do Christianity and Judaism, but he's also accusing Islam of being inherently violent, which I disagree with and I'm sure you do too (unless you agree with him), that's where I said you should focus your efforts on rather than taking silly little shots at shias.

 

[Darackutny]

^ I've linked you to a post in which I've proven that top Shia scholars believe that the Qur'an that we have today has been fabricated. How are our cores similar when you folks believe in that?

Shias also believe in the following:

- Resurrection during the end of times to fight along side the Mahdi
- Infallibility of the Twelve Imams
- Intercession through the dead
- The creation of the Qur'an
- The negation of the attributes of Allah

that's where I said you should focus your efforts on rather than taking silly little shots at shias.

I don't have any issues with what Nizar has said, even though I disagree with what he is implying... and obviously, I've found your comment, that there is no difference between the core of our sects, more dangerous that all that Nizar has implied.

 

[Anaxagoras]

What the hell are you talking about.

I told you your answer many times already. Non of the religion including are peaceful. All the religion including Islam are as peaceful as you want it to be and as violent as you want it to be.

So you do believe that Islam is a violent religion?
yes or no?

Islam is not a person that comes to you and tell you Nizar please kill some one. I actually understood what you were saying and I tried to explain. I don't think you will understand since your way of thinking is very one dimensional and in no way can be changed. sorry for late reply had to go to pray.

Taqabal allah, now please be more clear in your responses, be as straight forward in your responses and do not involve matters that are irrelevant to whether Islam is a violent or a nonviolent religion.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Nizar, you need to clarify a couple of things if you want this discussion to get anywhere, do you believe:
a) Violence is bad in all cases
or
b) Violence is acceptable in some cases

If your answer is b), for convenience could you please give an example where you believe violence is acceptable.

A fresh breath to this closed discussion, I like that.

Now although this discussion is about Islam and not about my views on violence, I will answer your question because I like your approach.

Of course I believe that violence is accepted and is needed too in some situations.
Self defense is an example, if someone is locked in a room as a hostage and is about to get killed and there is no possibility of either escaping the room or disarming the attacker, then it is accepted according to me and to the Swedish law for example if he had to kill the attacker to save himself.

And to keep this discussion rich and compact, I will take the next step and answer your future possible questions.

This does not change the fact that the victim has committed a violent act.

You state that Islam is not a peaceful religion / is a violent religion. Are you also saying that this is a bad thing?

Well, according to me I find it a bad thing, religions should never encourage violence because they are open to interpretation and can be misleading, the terrorism we are witnessing today is a result of this.
I am not denying that a good part of the violence committed in the name of Islam might have happened anyway whether Allah asked the Muslims to commit it or not, but again things might have been better without this encouregment, or to word it better, this duty.
but again, this discussion is not about my view of violence.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Hope you dont mind if I just jump in,

Not at all.

but Yes I do believe it is peaceful.
‏5:32 من اجل ذلك كتبنا على بني اسرائيل انه من قتل نفسا بغير نفس او فسادفي الارض فكانما قتل الناس جميعا ومن احياها فكانما احيا الناس جميعا ولقد جاءتهم رسلنا بالبينات ثم ان كثيرا منهم بعد ذلك في الارض لمسرفون

check it, 005:032 - The killing of a human being - unless the human being was a murderer or to stop disorder of the land - is as if he killed all of mankind.

This is a somewhat peaceful part of Islam, but this part in no way eliminates the violent part of Islam.

Or to be clearer, that wasn't a nonviolent part of Islam, killing a murderer is still violence, so keep on the search till you find a better example.

- - Death Penalty - -
- - though not has harsh in todays society, it was the norm in those times, remember the quran was not written yesterday - -

Islam is supposed to be perfect and globally universal, if this is truly the case then God would have considered the fact that we will one day become civilized and won't need to rely on such barbaric and violent punishments to keep ourselves safe.

I believe you said, killing of a human being whether it being deserves is still an act of violence, well by that logic, your argument should be the earth is a violent place, not Islam.

Well, earth is a violent place, and so is Islam.
Do you mean that because earth is a violent place then all religions are violent? because that would be a false statement, religions can be peaceful and violent too!

Read up on the Prophets War and Principles and Regulations, He said that as they were ready to get into a battle that -
No Children, Women, Elderly, Monks, Hermits, Refugees be killed. No Person set on fire, no animal be killed, no trees cut down. Unlike your enemy, no nose or ears cut of. No injured be killed.

Also, read up on the Battle of Badr(which was spoken in the quran), it was a battle where the Muslim Army won and took prisoners. The Prisoners were not killed, in fact they were treated better the the army (given food, rode on camels while the army walked), they were infidels in the eyes of the muslim army, and they were not killed.

There are tons of non-believers who are children, women, non-combatants etc... and the prophet said do not kill them.

That is a smart way to give people a good impression of his new religion if you ask me, but that doesn't eliminate the violent parts in Islam!

If the quran teaches to kill infidels, then please explain to me why Zimmi exists. also known as dhimmi.

So your argument here is Zimmis exist and thus the quran does not preach on killing nonmuslims? ask your self, is this a logical argument?

I might of mis-understood you earlier, but you said that if someone is "fighting for their land, freedom or chicks" its still considered violence. I beg to differ, Fighting for your land or freedom is not violence.

So if I commit violence while defending my family or property, what I commit becomes all of the sudden nonviolent because there is a reason behind it? that is just illogical.

Hamas are not fighting in the Name of Allah, they are fighting for their freedom.

I do not want to get into the political perspective on this issue, my question was whether what Hammas is doing Islamic or not.

 

[phalestine]

...?!

How is fighting for land or freedom not a form of violence?! It is a form of violence, which one can find to be justified, but saying flat out that it isn't a form of violence doesn't make any sense.

There are many meanings to Violence. Violence is a violent act, therefore fighting for your freedom is not violence. But it can also mean to assault/injure, which flat out means any form of fighting, therefore it is a violence. lets just go with what you said,fighting for freedom is a form of violence that is justified.

 

[crazy monkey]

Hi,
Nizar I think you are lost. If you want to prove that religion has violence i already said yes 100 times. What else you want? you might be just waiting for news story so that you can jump dam that muslim guy did something wrong so islam is wrong.

 

[crazy monkey]

And i also think this discussion is totally irrelevant and crazy. Fact are facts if you are discussing something that means you are asking for some ones opinion which can be anything.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Hi,
Nizar I think you are lost. If you want to prove that religion has violence i already said yes 100 times.

Good for you, at least you are not lying like most of the Muslims over here.

What else you want? you might be just waiting for news story so that you can jump dam that muslim guy did something wrong so islam is wrong.

There is a difference between being violent and being wrong, we can get into that later if you are interested.

 

[Anaxagoras]

And i also think this discussion is totally irrelevant and crazy. Fact are facts if you are discussing something that means you are asking for some ones opinion which can be anything.

I am not basing my facts or arguments on peoples opinions, they are based on the Quran.
A good amount of people in here disagree with me and that why I ask for their opinions to find holes in them and prove them wrong.

 

[phalestine]

Nisar, do you believe Islam is a peaceful and Violent religion? or just violent? because by your logic, every religion of the book is peaceful and violent, if that's the case, well then we are on the same page.