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Official Islamic Thread

Casp0r said:
OttomanScribe why are Islamic led countries constantly lagging behind in human rights, social advancement and technical evolution?

Whether you look at Human Development Index, Global Peace Index, Quality of Life, Economy, Literacy Level, Aid to Developing Countries etc etc Islamic countries barely make it into the top 20's of these lists.

All while corruption, illiteracy, dictatorships, conflict, violence, intolerance, terrorism etc etc thrive in numerous Islamic countries.

Does this complete lack of any form of advancement from the most adherent Islamic nations not strike you as slightly worrying?
I think there are a few seperate points here, and I will try and draw them out and address them, bear with me :)
OttomanScribe why are Islamic led countries constantly lagging behind in human rights, social advancement and technical evolution?
I think that one finds similar levels of technical inferiority, social oppression and human rights abuses across the global South. The horror of life in the poverty stricken parts of the world is unfortunately not a monopoly of Muslim nations, I wish that it were!

As to why? The reasons are myriad and predominantly economic, at the current point in time, the belt of humanity stretching from North Africa to South East Asia has been on a downturn. Previously the main locus of world power, the main source of Empires and great civilisations, the last 300 years have been a shift from this standard to the opposite, where periphery states have gained dominance. One cannot look at the trend of history and assume that this is either the natural state of things, or something of permanence.

Whether you look at Human Development Index, Global Peace Index, Quality of Life, Economy, Literacy Level, Aid to Developing Countries etc etc Islamic countries barely make it into the top 20's of these lists.
Only a fool believes that such things are caused by ideologies rather than by the realities of both politics and economics. All those things, from development, to peace to quality of life are economic, rather than ideological things. People are not poor because of what they believe, they are poor because of the economic standards in the countries they live in.

All while corruption, illiteracy, dictatorships, conflict, violence, intolerance, terrorism etc etc thrive in numerous Islamic countries.
Again, these are things that are not held only by Muslim countries, unfortunately. Such thingsa are rife throughout the Muslim and non-Muslim world. Considering the amount of Muslims on the earth, it is only natural that many Muslims find themselves in such an unfortunate situation. The unfortunate reality is that Muslims are not ruled by governments that represent the religion. There is not a single 'Islamic' government in existence today, mores the pity. There are a myriad of secular and sectarian dictators from Morroco to Syria and Indonesia. These are elites that should know better than to serve the economic interests of those that would dominate.
Does this complete lack of any form of advancement from the most adherent Islamic nations not strike you as slightly worrying?
It is worrying certainly, but I do not take it as a permanent state of affairs, the nations of the Muslims were once the light of the world, not just in technology (which is a poor definer of progress) but in values as well. This age of Western backed dictators and non-Western backed monafiqs (hypocrites) will end in time, if it is God's will. It seems to already be happening.

Ask me again in 50 years, when the world has changed as much as it has in the last 50 :) we will see if the same issues exist.
 

AAK

Member
Casp0r said:
OttomanScribe why are Islamic led countries constantly lagging behind ...

Define Islamic Country please. I can't even think of one that adheres to that definition linguistically.
 
AAK said:
Define Islamic Country please. I can't even think of one that adheres to that definition linguistically.
This is a point I've tried to get across elsewhere but it never seems to work :(

I think it has something to do with the lack of knowledge people have of the application of the Sha'riah (things like the office of the Khalif etc.) and of the realities of the modern political situation in the Muslim world. You can try and tell people that the vast majority of governments don't even claim to be based in the Sha'riah (at best saying 'the Qur'an is the constitution', while making laws in a parliament) let alone actually come close to adhering to it..
 

Azih

Member
Yeah, that's one of the reasons that I really appreciated Obama using the phrase 'Muslim majority countries' in his speeches rather than 'Islamic countries'. It was the first time I heard that and it is just a way more accurate view. There is this absurd tendency to lump countries together for no other reason than they have a lot of muslims in them. It completely obscures how completely different these countries from each other.

Of course a part of the blame lies with us though. A whole lot of us keep pushing this idea of a 'Global Ummah' of muslims which doesn't exist and hasn't existed for more than 1300 years if not longer (you can pick either the death of the Prophet Muhammed or Ali, the last of the four Caliphs as the date that the muslim community splintered).
 
Azih said:
Yeah, that's one of the reasons that I really appreciated Obama using the phrase 'Muslim majority countries' in his speeches rather than 'Islamic countries'. It was the first time I heard that and it is just a way more accurate view. There is this absurd tendency to lump countries together for no other reason than they have a lot of muslims in them. It completely obscures how completely different these countries from each other.

Of course a part of the blame lies with us though. A whole lot of us keep pushing this idea of a 'Global Ummah' of muslims which doesn't exist and hasn't existed for more than 1300 years if not longer (you can pick either the death of the Prophet Muhammed or Ali, the last of the four Caliphs as the date that the muslim community splintered).
The Ummah exists.. it just hasn't existed as a single political entity since the passing of the Beloved of God (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam).

The idea of a global Ummah is not about politics, it is about a 'spiritual empire', where the entirety of the community belong to the one brotherhood and sisterhood.

Of course for all Sunni Muslims, it is a juridicial obligation to have loyalty to the Succesor of the Prophet Mohammed (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) though since the end of the Uthmaniyya, that is sort of a moot point.
 

Prine

Banned
3 Part Documentary by BBC on the Prophet (pbuh) starting tonight on BBC2.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b012mkg5


In a ground-breaking first for British television, this three-part series presented by Rageh Omaar charts the life of Muhammad, a man who - for the billion and half Muslims across the globe - is the messenger and final prophet of God.

In a journey that is both literal and historical and beginning in Muhammad's birthplace of Mecca, Omaar investigates the Arabia Muhammad was born into - a world of tribal loyalties and polytheistic religion.

Drawing on the expertise and comment of some of the world's leading academics and commentators on Islam, the programme examines Muhammad's first marriage to Khadijah and how he received the first of the revelations that had such a profound effect both on his life, and on the lives of those closest to him.

Looking forward to it, Rageh Omaar is a fantastic documenter.
 

Prine

Banned
On right now on BBC 2. Fantastic I must say, opinions and evidence from many schools and intellects.

Discussed harsh environment of Mecca, treatment of women, wealth of the Prophet (pbuh) his reputation before achieving comfort financially prior to receiving Islam, how he pushed that region to ascend and prosper, change the world. Karen Armstrong pops in now and then OttomonScribe :)
 

slider

Member
Prine said:
On right now on BBC 2. Fantastic I must say, opinions and evidence from many schools and intellects.

Discussed harsh environment of Mecca, treatment of women, wealth of the Prophet (pbuh) his reputation before achieving comfort financially prior to receiving Islam, how he pushed that region to ascend and prosper, change the world. Karen Armstrong pops in now and then OttomonScribe :)

What's it called? I'll look it up on iPlayer when I get a chance.
 

Azih

Member
OttomanScribe said:
The Ummah exists.. it just hasn't existed as a single political entity since the passing of the Beloved of God (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam).

The idea of a global Ummah is not about politics, it is about a 'spiritual empire', where the entirety of the community belong to the one brotherhood and sisterhood.

Of course for all Sunni Muslims, it is a juridicial obligation to have loyalty to the Succesor of the Prophet Mohammed (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) though since the end of the Uthmaniyya, that is sort of a moot point.

Yes it is a moot point. The only way that an Ummah exists (or has existed since the Prophet died) is as an incredibly nebulous and vague 'spiritual' entity that has no real impact or influence on any muslim life.

And yet it is this formless powerless pious exhortation that confuses the hell out of non muslims and hell muslims as well. It leads to completely inaccurate notions of some sort of an 'Islamic world' in which any bad thing that happens in any part of it (women can't drive in Saudi Arabia! attacks on churches in Egypt!) can be applied not only to the whole but to all muslims as well. After all we're all part of the 'Ummah' aren't we? Since we're all part of the Ummah isn't the practice of female circumcision in Sudan endorsed by all of us?

Since we're all a part of this spiritual empire then aren't we all complicit in girls schools being bombed in Afghanistan by our spiritual brothers in the Taliban?
 

Prine

Banned
slider said:
What's it called? I'll look it up on iPlayer when I get a chance.


The Life of Muhammad

Its on iPlayer right now. Had no idea about the Prophets persecution by the Quresh, or the extent it was exercised. Didn't realise it went on for years.
 

slider

Member
Prine said:
The Life of Muhammad

Its on iPlayer right now. Had no idea about the Prophets persecution by the Quresh, or the extent it was exercised. Didn't realise it went on for years.

Thanks buddy, I'll track it down this evening.
 
Azih said:
Yes it is a moot point. The only way that an Ummah exists (or has existed since the Prophet died) is as an incredibly nebulous and vague 'spiritual' entity that has no real impact or influence on any muslim life.
I disagree. Have you never felt the sense of community when you go into any mosque, even one full of people that speak a different language and have a different culture to you? That is what being part of the Ummah is like. I have prayed in Masjids all over South East Asia and have always felt the same sense of welcome in all of them. That is what being part of a global community, a community of believers, is like.

And yet it is this formless powerless pious exhortation that confuses the hell out of non muslims and hell muslims as well. It leads to completely inaccurate notions of some sort of an 'Islamic world' in which any bad thing that happens in any part of it (women can't drive in Saudi Arabia! attacks on churches in Egypt!) can be applied not only to the whole but to all muslims as well. After all we're all part of the 'Ummah' aren't we? Since we're all part of the Ummah isn't the practice of female circumcision in Sudan endorsed by all of us?
Why are we held accountable to the ignorance of others? If there are people within the community, within the Muslim world, who are divergent or who commit crimes, how does that at all apply communal guilt to us all? I think it certainly conveys a certain level of responsibility upon us all to command the right and forbid the wrong, but that exists already.

Are you advocating that we abandon the idea entirely, and replace it with what?

Since we're all a part of this spiritual empire then aren't we all complicit in girls schools being bombed in Afghanistan by our spiritual brothers in the Taliban?
Why would we be complicit in any way more than anyone else? We are certainly beholden to call these people to righteousness, but few of us are in a position to do so. It seems as though your problem with the idea of the Ummah is that it allows people to make unjust generalisations about the Muslims. They will do this regardless. People who hate us will hate us no matter what we call ourselves or how we view ourselves, their hatred doesn't relate to our understandings of the religion or our self perception, it is all about their perception of us, which has little to do with how we actually are.

The Ummah is described in the Holy Qur'an, rather than looking at the problems that the idea causes us (praying in public will cause you problems, but if the time is upon you, you should fear nothing save God), we should be looking at how we can live up to the idea, with unity and fortitude. We should make sure that we truly are a community, and break down the divisions between us. That, I think, is better for us.
 

Azih

Member
It seems as though your problem with the idea of the Ummah is that it allows people to make unjust generalisations about the Muslims.
That's one of my problems with it, but only because it also leads to muslims themselves being incredibly poor at debunking the generalisations. It's like people are incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of criticising our "spiritual brothers and sisters." It's pathetic and I'm sick and tired of listening to people try to defend the Taliban and other extremist fringe jackhole muslims because of this idea of soildarity and brotherhood.

Are you advocating that we abandon the idea entirely, and replace it with what?
I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating that we be incredibly clear about what it is, which is nothing more than a vague brotherly feeling. And also be aware of how incredibly misleading the idea is for anyone who tries to make it any more than that.

We should make sure that we truly are a community, and break down the divisions between us. That, I think, is better for us.
Growing up Shia in Saudi Arabia kinda convinces me that that is impossible. It's hard to feel like a part of a brotherhood if I wonder everytime I pray in a close by Masjid whehter I should pray with my hands closed to fit in, or open as I was taught by my family.

In any case we could go into a whole hell of a of different tangents here but my basic point is that our insistence on pointing out the 'spiritual global Ummah of all muslims' quite reasonably ties us in with all parts of it in the minds of an outsider. We need to highlight not just what makes us the same but also what makes us different.

It's not just that others don't realise our differences, but that we ourselves don't that really gets me. It makes it really hard for us to condemn those who spew bile and hatred in the name of the Quran.
 
Watched the Life of Muhammad. I disagree with the blanket statement though that proponents of the alleged Satanic Verses incident are/were necessarily 'enemies' of Islam rather than critics. It's easy for a religion to be criticised and attacked from those outside it in a society where we have multiple biases and subscriptions of faith. A Muslim that criticises certain elements of Christianity - even as something as fundamental as the crucifixion account - doesn't make him an enemy of Christianity. Having said that, it was a great episode. I'm keen to see the next one
 
Azih said:
That's one of my problems with it, but only because it also leads to muslims themselves being incredibly poor at debunking the generalisations. It's like people are incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of criticising our "spiritual brothers and sisters." It's pathetic and I'm sick and tired of listening to people try to defend the Taliban and other extremist fringe jackhole muslims because of this idea of soildarity and brotherhood.
The Taliban and 'extremist jackholes', even on the fringe, are a part of our community, whether we approve of their actions or not. Most people aren't uncomfortable with criticising them, what they are uncomfortable with is usually critiques of them being used to generalise across the entire community of the Muslims. They are our brothers, but a brother can be sinful. When he is, one should do their best to call him to what is right, reign him in if one can, as opposed to simply kicking him out of the family.

I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating that we be incredibly clear about what it is, which is nothing more than a vague brotherly feeling. And also be aware of how incredibly misleading the idea is for anyone who tries to make it any more than that.
I think it is more than a vague brotherly feeling. It is identity of every Muslim on earth, as part of the one spiritual community. That is something that says nothing to the piety or correctness of every Muslim on earth... what do you think people are saying otherwise?
Growing up Shia in Saudi Arabia kinda convinces me that that is impossible. It's hard to feel like a part of a brotherhood if I wonder everytime I pray in a close by Masjid whehter I should pray with my hands closed to fit in, or open as I was taught by my family.
Then that is an issue of the misconduct of people within the community, not the identity of the community itself. In my community in Sydney, as in my neighbourhood, rather than the Muslims, there are drug dealers and car thiefs and racists and whatever, they are still part of the community... and they are the communities problem.
In any case we could go into a whole hell of a of different tangents here but my basic point is that our insistence on pointing out the 'spiritual global Ummah of all muslims' quite reasonably ties us in with all parts of it in the minds of an outsider. We need to highlight not just what makes us the same but also what makes us different.
Allah commands us not to form sects. We can discuss the reality of the community, but the majority of non-Muslims who attack us with a generalisation are ignorant of this reality. Unfortunately they don't come to such discussions without a pre-conceived bias against us, and so will find it difficult to accept complexities within what is neccesarily a complex reality. That is on them, not us. We are not held accounatable to their ignorances.
It's not just that others don't realise our differences, but that we ourselves don't that really gets me. It makes it really hard for us to condemn those who spew bile and hatred in the name of the Quran.
I don't think it does at all. Maybe because you are from Saudi you just don't see the level of condemnation that goes around. It often ends up with people transgressing the limits of backbiting and making excuses for brothers and sisters. The way to deal with extremism isn't condemnation in front of a third party. That gets us nowhere, we need to deal with it where it is based, look at what causes it and speak directly to those who spread it. They need to be brought to sagacity, and if they refuse, with the will of God, something else needs to be done.

Condemnation in front of the khuffar of people in our community does nothing for us, or for their perception of the religion. We condemn and condemn and condemn until our throats are hoarse. Those amongst them who hate us, will continue to hate us regardless.
 

Ashes

Banned
Meus Renaissance said:
Watched the Life of Muhammad. I disagree with the blanket statement though that proponents of the alleged Satanic Verses incident are/were necessarily 'enemies' of Islam rather than critics. It's easy for a religion to be criticised and attacked from those outside it in a society where we have multiple biases and subscriptions of faith. A Muslim that criticises certain elements of Christianity - even as something as fundamental as the crucifixion account - doesn't make him an enemy of Christianity. Having said that, it was a great episode. I'm keen to see the next one

I think the suggestion was that the satanic verses was it self created by the enemies of islam way back then.
 

F#A#Oo

Banned
I was disappointed that the sisters that were involved didn't wear the hijab...

After the first episode...some people I know criticized the sisters who took part because of this...and I can understand their feelings tbh.
 

Azih

Member
F#A#Oo said:
I was disappointed that the sisters that were involved didn't wear the hijab...

After the first episode...some people I know criticized the sisters who took part because of this...and I can understand their feelings tbh.
God, why?
 

Azih

Member
OttomanScribe said:
The Taliban and 'extremist jackholes', even on the fringe, are a part of our community, whether we approve of their actions or not.
I'm not disagreeing with that. What I am deploring is this sentiment leads quite a lot of us to be hesitant in attacking the fucked up things they say or worse assuming that they are better muslims just because they have the shallow trappings of piety (Wow, that guy has an unkempt beard! He must be more knowledgeable about Islam!!). We weaken our own positions by striving for solidarity with a fringe of murderous ignorant assholes.

Most people aren't uncomfortable with criticising them
Not from what I've seen. Most Muslims from my experience either look the other way and hope the issue goes away on its own and, worse, some have the general sentiment that those bastards are 'better' muslims because the rest of us are circumspect in pointing out how fucked up they are.

what they are uncomfortable with is usually critiques of them being used to generalise across the entire community of the Muslims.
I agree with that. My point however is that we muddy the issue ourselves by not agreeing with the valid criticisms made of those guys without reservation.

When he is, one should do their best to call him to what is right, reign him in if one can, as opposed to simply kicking him out of the family.
I'm not sure why you're talking about kicking anyone out of any family. As to the sentiment though if a family member of mine was doing dangerous things I wouldn't apologize for their actions to outsiders that's for damn sure. Too many of us do.

I think it is more than a vague brotherly feeling. It is identity of every Muslim on earth, as part of the one spiritual community.
My point is this: As this spiritual community has no unified political will or ideological cohesion or any other kind of internal unity besides it has no real affect on the world other than muslims being generally happy to see another muslim.

Are you disputing that? Because it is fact as far as I am concerned and it is only this fact that allows us to accurately say that the sins of the Taliban or Al-Qaeda or whoever can not and should not be generalized across all muslims. If we're not clear about this then how can we expect anybody else to be?

Then that is an issue of the misconduct of people within the community, not the identity of the community itself.
Sure but it's the communities responsibility to make it damn clear that it does not condone and in fact deplores the activities of those certain people. No ifs ands or buts. We do a terrible job of that.

but the majority of non-Muslims who attack us with a generalisation are ignorant of this reality.
One point that I am making is that it is not just non-Muslims. Quite a lot of Muslims are ignorant of this reality as well. Which makes them obviously incredibly bad at disabusing others of the notion. We need to be clearer about this.

Unfortunately they don't come to such discussions without a pre-conceived bias against us, and so will find it difficult to accept complexities within what is neccesarily a complex reality. That is on them, not us. We are not held accounatable to their ignorances.
We are *affected* by their ignorance in an incredibly profound way so it remains profoundly our problem. It's a complicated issue sure, but it is made much less so, and made much clarity is achieved, if we are *clear* about the differences and the divisions which we are *not*.

Maybe because you are from Saudi you just don't see the level of condemnation that goes around.
I'm in Canada and I see plenty of condemnation but it all comes from self styled 'moderate' Ayaan Hirsi Ali types (who are anything but) because the mass of well meaning regular Muslims don't condemn their spiritual brothers and sisters even when they do disgusting things. If someone makes a good point then it makes our positions weaker if we do not acknowledge it. Trying to ignore it, sweep it under the rug, or keep it in the family just makes our positions seem inconsistent and easy to attack.

The way to deal with extremism isn't condemnation in front of a third party. That gets us nowhere, we need to deal with it where it is based, look at what causes it and speak directly to those who spread it. They need to be brought to sagacity, and if they refuse, with the will of God, something else needs to be done.

Condemnation in front of the khuffar of people in our community does nothing for us, or for their perception of the religion. We condemn and condemn and condemn until our throats are hoarse. Those amongst them who hate us, will continue to hate us regardless.

Two points here.

1. Focusing on people who just hate muslims anyway does us no good. People like that will spin and twist whatever factoid or news item they have to make it look like all muslims are backwards and barbarians or whatever. But there aren't many people like that, they're an obnoxious vocal minority when compared to the masses of people who don't really know much about Islam or muslims at all and very reasonably can see a term like 'Global Ummah of muslims' and assume that all muslims agree with each other on stuff. If those people get the sense that no muslims *don't* all agree that girl's shouldn't be allowed to go to school or whatever other shit is spewed by extremists then we are in a much better place to build relations and the vocal hateful bigots can go screaming all they want but will seem like the loons that they are instead of the respected mainstream commentators that they have become since 9/11 with everything that seems 'muslim' coming under suspicion.

2. It's impossible for condemnation to be 'kept in the family' when the family is a 1.5 billion + strong collection of people whose only ties to each other is a certain level of brotherly feeling. In such a situation condemnation by necessity has to be open and obvious and it does not matter one bit who else might be listening in. Especially since by not being open we allow extremists to be open and obvious in spreading their dangerous bullshit unchecked. There's a reason that youtube is pulling videos from 'Imams' and you can flag videos as 'encouraging terrorism' and it's *our* Ummah.

I'm not advocating 'disbanding the global Ummah' as you seem to be assuming I am. Hell no one can do that. I'm just pointing out a) that's an incredibly limited concept in terms of its affects on the world and b) some incredibly damaging side effects of it that we have to minimize as much as possible.

Edit: Also there is nothing keeping us from debunking those who try to generalize across all muslims AND criticizing strongly those in the Ummah advocating crazy things openly. This is not an either-or situation.
 

Ashes

Banned
Whilst I had originally agreed with some of your positions, Azih, you've veered off base somewhat, to the point that I'm not sure, if you have a clear position on this.

Are you saying that a global Muslim community does not exist? I kinda agree; I understand the complications i.e. a woman can't just freely go to any Muslim mosque in the world, like a man can. Differences of opinion, like schools of thought, don't necessarily mean that the global Muslim community isn't seen as a whole though. Take the celebration of Eid al-Adha; it's celebrated within a day or two, right around the world.

Are you saying a global Muslim community, under the banner of a coherent whole, does not exist? i.e. a unified movement. This needs to be said and differentiated, because this, I think does not exist.
 

Azih

Member
Ashes1396 said:
Whilst I had originally agreed with some of your positions, Azih, you've veered off base somewhat, to the point that I'm not sure, if you have a clear position on this.

Are you saying that a global Muslim community does not exist? I kinda agree; I understand the complications i.e. a woman can't just freely go to any Muslim mosque in the world, like a man can. Differences of opinion, like schools of thought, don't necessarily mean that the global Muslim community isn't seen as a whole though. Take the celebration of Eid al-Adha; it's celebrated within a day or two, right around the world.

Are you saying a global Muslim community, under the banner of a coherent whole, does not exist? i.e. a unified movement. This needs to be said and differentiated, because this, I think does not exist.

Well there are a lot of different issues wrapped up in my conversation with Ottoman that's true.

My position on the global Islamic community is that it exists only as a feeling of spiritual kinship between most muslims and certain shared practices (5 prayers a day, fasting in Ramadan, Umrah and Hajj). It's not a trivial thing by any means but it goes no further than that.
 

F#A#Oo

Banned
Azih said:
God, why?

Because they're discussing Islam...and very few woman can get away with not wearing headscarf and coming across in a way that will get them respect and not be seen as a hypocrite that picks and chooses what to follow or not...
 

Ashes

Banned
F#A#Oo said:
Because they're discussing Islam...and very few woman can get away with not wearing headscarf and coming across in a way that will get them respect and not be seen as a hypocrite that picks and chooses what to follow or not...

Can you name a muslim who does not do that?
 

F#A#Oo

Banned
Ashes1396 said:
Can you name a muslim who does not do that?

Ofcourse not...

That's beside the point anyways...headscarf is not seen as something one can argue against and be hypocritical about...the face veil yes I can see different interpretations and how people may come to different understanding etc.

Example;

"Ayesha reported that Asma’ the daughter of Abu Bakr came to the Messenger of Allah while wearing thin clothing. He approached her and said: 'O Asma’! When a girl reaches the menstrual age, it is not proper that anything should remain exposed except this and this. He pointed to the face and hands." [Abu Dawud]
 

Ashes

Banned
F#A#Oo said:
Ofcourse not...

That's beside the point anyways...headscarf is not seen as something one can argue against and be hypocritical about...the face veil yes I can see different interpretations and how people may come to different understanding etc.

Example;

"Ayesha reported that Asma’ the daughter of Abu Bakr came to the Messenger of Allah while wearing thin clothing. He approached her and said: 'O Asma’! When a girl reaches the menstrual age, it is not proper that anything should remain exposed except this and this. He pointed to the face and hands." [Abu Dawud]

hmm... interesting.
 
Azih said:
I'm not disagreeing with that. What I am deploring is this sentiment leads quite a lot of us to be hesitant in attacking the fucked up things they say or worse assuming that they are better muslims just because they have the shallow trappings of piety (Wow, that guy has an unkempt beard! He must be more knowledgeable about Islam!!). We weaken our own positions by striving for solidarity with a fringe of murderous ignorant assholes.
I would be inclined to characterise that as a misattribution. I think that if people are hesitant in attacking other Muslims in public, it is because of the way that such attacks will be appropriated and use against us and the religion as a whole.

I was writing an honours proposal comparing Hizb ut-Tahrir with Socialist and far-left student movements, both in organisation and rhetoric. I however changed my mind, why publicly condemn an organisation already publicly condemned by people whose gripe isn't with HT specifically, it is with Muslims more generally. Doing so would only serve them, and benefit the Muslims none.

So instead I called up the local leader of HT and sat in a coffee shop and told him all my concerns face to face.
Not from what I've seen. Most Muslims from my experience either look the other way and hope the issue goes away on its own and, worse, some have the general sentiment that those bastards are 'better' muslims because the rest of us are circumspect in pointing out how fucked up they are.
I don't know who you associate with then. This has not been my experience at all.
I agree with that. My point however is that we muddy the issue ourselves by not agreeing with the valid criticisms made of those guys without reservation.
I think that there should be a distinction there, one can agree with valid criticisms without going so far as to remove all the reservations... one reservation should be that people don't criticise Al Qaeda, or the Taliban, or the House of Saud, they criticise Islam more generally. To them, there is no distinction. When we don't explain the complexity of things, we only confirm the biases they already have. Not just against extremists, but against ourselves.
I'm not sure why you're talking about kicking anyone out of any family. As to the sentiment though if a family member of mine was doing dangerous things I wouldn't apologize for their actions to outsiders that's for damn sure. Too many of us do.
Why should we be forced to apologise for anything, indeed why should we have to condemn either? What has the crimes of the brother have to do with the father? Is the father responsible? Should he be held responsible? I certainly feel held responsible for every crime that some Muslim somewhere does, if I denounce every single one, I encourage that association as being valid. It makes people think that I NEED to denounce every single crime committed by every single Muslim. As though whenever a Westerner or Christian or European or whatever commits a crime, every Christian or Westerner or European is held to account until they apologise on behalf of their fellow nationalist or co-religionist.

My point is this: As this spiritual community has no unified political will or ideological cohesion or any other kind of internal unity besides it has no real affect on the world other than muslims being generally happy to see another muslim.
I think this is a mistake. There is an ideological cohesion there. How many Muslims out there would say 'no' to the question, do you 'testify that there is nothing worthy of worship save Allah, and Mohammed is the Messenger of Allah?'? If we have anything, the majority of the Muslims share so much. Maybe 85% (at a conservative guess) are Ahlul Sunnah Wa Jamaat. And those, if they learn, learn one of the four Sunni madhabs, they learn one of the two Sunni schools of aqidah. They share all this, 85% of the Ummah cannot be called a sect, cannot be said to differ on basic principles, on the books of hadith, on the foundations of the religion.

There are schizmatics, there have always been schizmatics and sects, this doesn't mean that the Ummah can be said not to exist, simply because people put themselves outside of it.

Are you disputing that? Because it is fact as far as I am concerned and it is only this fact that allows us to accurately say that the sins of the Taliban or Al-Qaeda or whoever can not and should not be generalized across all muslims. If we're not clear about this then how can we expect anybody else to be?
The answer to the sins of the Talibs or whoever is to say, yes, Muslims are fallible. Are there people out there that think otherwise? There has been fitna since the beginning! There were those who took bayah with the Messenger of Allah (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) then conspired behind his back! No one is denying this. Yet was it not still an Ummah during his life and after? Were not the majority not of the monafiqun? Even when the Khwarij assasinated our leaders, were not they still a minority? Even when the Mother of the Believers (radiAllahu anha) and the last of the Rightly Guided Caliphs took up arms against each other, were not the majority of the believers still intact?

Sure but it's the communities responsibility to make it damn clear that it does not condone and in fact deplores the activities of those certain people. No ifs ands or buts. We do a terrible job of that.
No, we don't. We are not to be hold to account for the deafness of others. It is their fault for making assumptions upon us, for asking questions and not listening to our answers. I am done with condemnations, if one asks me what I think of a Muslim who slays another Muslim without just cause, or who slays a non-Muslim without just cause, I will tell them the answer. However I will not trust that they will listen!

How many times did our leaders condemn 9/11, over and over and over and over again! How much of the blood of the believers lies shed by these people, in Yemen, in Iraq, in Somalia, in Nigeria, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan? Far more than the blood of any Americans or Brits or whoever, yet they ask us to condemn? As though their 3 000 were worth more to them than the hundreds of thousands dead at the hands of these schizmatics? Bah! Shame on them! They come to us and say 'where is the condemnation?' when a google search would drown them in it.

Their ears a blocked and their hearts are hardened. A person that would ask that question is likley either purposefully ignorant or has no good intention in mind.

One point that I am making is that it is not just non-Muslims. Quite a lot of Muslims are ignorant of this reality as well. Which makes them obviously incredibly bad at disabusing others of the notion. We need to be clearer about this.
So? How many Americans can show Iraq, a country they fill with widows, on a map? Ignorance is reprehensible for sure, yet must all the Muslims be taught to memorise a list of the scholars who denounced 9/11? Should it be something we teach our children alongside Surah Fatiha, ready for the day when they grow up (or not even) and are held accountable for the crimes of 19 men who they never knew?

We are *affected* by their ignorance in an incredibly profound way so it remains profoundly our problem. It's a complicated issue sure, but it is made much less so, and made much clarity is achieved, if we are *clear* about the differences and the divisions which we are *not*.
We are clear and they do not listen. THEY are the ones who are accountable for their ignorances, not us. There are many people amongst the kafirun who are not ignorant. There are Abu Talibs as well as Abu Jahals. How is it that I can know many who are not ignorant, yet I am expected to sit and teach those who are not, as though it is my fault that they know nothing? In every Islam bashing thread there are those of knowledge who call their fellows to sagacity, how is it that they are immune from ignorance? There are many who do not call for our deaths, many who do not held us accountable for crimes we have nothing to do with. Just as we should not be held accountable for the ignorant amongst us, they too should not be held accountable for the ignorant amongst them. They don't need us to be clear about the complexities within our religion, so why then do we need to seek out others whom are not?

To be clear I am not denouncing answering questions, rather I am talking about the kind of rushing out to the town crier and yelling about how we aren't all the Taliban...

I'm in Canada and I see plenty of condemnation but it all comes from self styled 'moderate' Ayaan Hirsi Ali types (who are anything but) because the mass of well meaning regular Muslims don't condemn their spiritual brothers and sisters even when they do disgusting things. If someone makes a good point then it makes our positions weaker if we do not acknowledge it. Trying to ignore it, sweep it under the rug, or keep it in the family just makes our positions seem inconsistent and easy to attack.
Again, I think either Canada is an aberation in this, or you are yet to come across it. I know that here the people who get media coverage are not Sheikh Nuh, giving his 'this is Jihad?' lecture. It is those who look like the media here want us to look. It is not that there aren't those here who call our brothers and sisters to right action, it is just that those who do, yet don't look secular or act white enough, won't get any airplay.





Two points here.

1. Focusing on people who just hate muslims anyway does us no good. People like that will spin and twist whatever factoid or news item they have to make it look like all muslims are backwards and barbarians or whatever. But there aren't many people like that, they're an obnoxious vocal minority when compared to the masses of people who don't really know much about Islam or muslims at all and very reasonably can see a term like 'Global Ummah of muslims' and assume that all muslims agree with each other on stuff. If those people get the sense that no muslims *don't* all agree that girl's shouldn't be allowed to go to school or whatever other shit is spewed by extremists then we are in a much better place to build relations and the vocal hateful bigots can go screaming all they want but will seem like the loons that they are instead of the respected mainstream commentators that they have become since 9/11 with everything that seems 'muslim' coming under suspicion.

As I said, we aren't responsible for the bigots. Indulging their ignorance and bigotry will get us nowhere. We have tried to seek out the media to denounce stuff, even before 9/11, we don't get airplay. I remember Abdal Hakim Murad called up Al Azhar during the Salman Rushdie thing, asking them for their position. They, like most Sunni groups, did not uphold the Fatwa of the Shia Ayatollah. He called up the BBC and asked why this was not published... why no one was pointing out that all these groups and scholars and Imams did not support the position, no answer. It wasn't a good story.

2. It's impossible for condemnation to be 'kept in the family' when the family is a 1.5 billion + strong collection of people whose only ties to each other is a certain level of brotherly feeling. In such a situation condemnation by necessity has to be open and obvious and it does not matter one bit who else might be listening in. Especially since by not being open we allow extremists to be open and obvious in spreading their dangerous bullshit unchecked. There's a reason that youtube is pulling videos from 'Imams' and you can flag videos as 'encouraging terrorism' and it's *our* Ummah.
I think the critiques are open and obvious, the reason they are not open and obvious in Canada or Britain or the United States is because agendas already exist that make them for uninteresting news. They will be published by various left-leaning media and then dismissed and forgotten. Not because we aren't open, but because people aren't listening. I am not responsible for the wool pulled over anothers eyes.
I'm not advocating 'disbanding the global Ummah' as you seem to be assuming I am. Hell no one can do that. I'm just pointing out a) that's an incredibly limited concept in terms of its affects on the world and b) some incredibly damaging side effects of it that we have to minimize as much as possible.
I don't agree. It is not a limited concept in the sense that you assert, and I don't think that it is the cause of the side effects that you attribute to it. Those effects are outside of us.

Edit: Also there is nothing keeping us from debunking those who try to generalize across all muslims AND criticizing strongly those in the Ummah advocating crazy things openly. This is not an either-or situation.
I am not saying it is.
 

Prine

Banned
Very powerful episode today. Must watch.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b012rylw/The_Life_of_Muhammad_Holy_Wars/

Discusses the treaty setup by the Prophet and the recognition of pluralism between people of different faiths. Jews and Christians being part of the "Ummah" the same community.

Also the slaughter of 800 jews, and how that event impacted the relations of muslims and jews thats felt today. An objective view, and more importantly a study of the political and economic dilemma of that time that led to that decision. And how it wasnt a decision made due to faith but treason, a decision that was not made by him but other leaders.

For me, I had no idea how relentless the Meccans were to exterminate muslims, and how the Prophet in his late 50s was evading assassination and various types of betrayal. As a muslim my heart felt heavy when i learned of how much he had to struggle, even as an aging man. :(
 

RiZ III

Member
Prine said:
Very powerful episode today. Must watch.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b012rylw/The_Life_of_Muhammad_Holy_Wars/

Discusses the treaty setup by the Prophet and the recognition of pluralism between people of different faiths. Jews and Christians being part of the "Ummah" the same community.

Also the slaughter of 800 jews, and how that event impacted the relations of muslims and jews thats felt today. An objective view, and more importantly a study of the political and economic dilemma of that time that led to that decision. And how it wasnt a decision made due to faith but treason, a decision that was not made by him but other leaders.

For me, I had no idea how relentless the Meccans were to exterminate muslims, and how the Prophet in his late 50s was evading assassination and various types of betrayal. As a muslim my heart felt heavy when i learned of how much he had to struggle, even as an aging man. :(

Yea they were constantly trying to get rid of him. His whole life after becoming a prophet was a constant struggle. It's amazing how well he handled it. Imagine, he was just an average Joe, not educated, not rich, with pretty much no power and in 23 years he helped to change the whole world! It's really humbling when you think about it. He would stay up late at night praying, wake up early to pray, fast often, and still able to effectively lead and govern a growing group of followers. Praise be to God.

Btw is there a way for people not in the uk to watch this documentary?
 
There is a show here in Aus called Q&A, with questions from the audience. Susan Carland was on it, but the standout was this humanist lady (a sociologist). When this elderly gentleman asked the standard niqab question, she cut him off halfway through with 'no! Its all racist garbage' lol.

Win.
 

Prine

Banned
RiZ III said:
Yea they were constantly trying to get rid of him. His whole life after becoming a prophet was a constant struggle. It's amazing how well he handled it. Imagine, he was just an average Joe, not educated, not rich, with pretty much no power and in 23 years he helped to change the whole world! It's really humbling when you think about it. He would stay up late at night praying, wake up early to pray, fast often, and still able to effectively lead and govern a growing group of followers. Praise be to God.

Btw is there a way for people not in the uk to watch this documentary?

As the historian said in that episode. In a list of most important leaders in human history, Muhammad (pbuh) would be in the top 3.

Given the brutality of those times, how he reclaimed Mecca was a miracle, how he tolerated persecution and how the humiliation and injustice done to him didnt change his peaceful message. A lot of Muslims need to remember what he went through and follow his example of "forgiveness is supreme". His idea of Ummah, was not one massive muslim society, but a community that tolerated each other.

Documentry discussed 3 battles, retraced its footstep and detailed how the Prophet led muslims at the time. Muslims were few and how they managed to become a force against the Meccans is extraordinary. Changing prayer direction from Jerulsalem to Mecca being a massive insult to both Christians and Jews at the time, which consequentially impacted relations and began a string of betrayals.

Fascinating stuff, a lot was new to me.

Unfortunately the documentary is UK only mate.
 
The Bani-Qurayzah executions...I agree that period with relations with the Jewish tribes has impacted Muslim attitudes to modern Jews in some respects. Can only wonder how different things might have been if history were different

RiZ III said:
Btw is there a way for people not in the uk to watch this documentary?

It's on the web in various places. I wanted to make an OT for this and share the documentary episodes but still in communication with mods about possibly copyright infringements
 
SmokyDave said:
Cutting someone off mid-sentence and then generalising their concerns under the banner of racism is not 'winning'.
This was :)

She didn't cut him off, watching again, it was more this pause as the presenter was deciding who to direct the question to, then she threw out 'no, its prejudicial crap'. :)

The woman is a humanist and a feminist, I wouldn't expect anything else.

His specific concerns were that the niqab creates a barrier to human interaction, and her reply was that what makes him think he has a right to interact with any woman he pleases.
 

dacuk

Member
Sorry to derail the conversation, but this is a question to OttomanScribe:

Are there different interpretations (or currents) of the Qu'ran as there are of the Bible (as you can see by the myriads of Christian denominations)? As a person that does not know a lot of Islam, it has always appeared to me as a monolithic-block belief, where basically every believer has the same beliefs, in opposition to Chistianity, where a Catholic thinks way different to a Mormon, and a Jehovah Witness thinks differently of a Right-Wing Pentecostalist?
 
Meus Renaissance said:
It's on the web in various places. I wanted to make an OT for this and share the documentary episodes but still in communication with mods about possibly copyright infringements
Can you PM me a working link to Episode 2?
 
daCuk said:
Sorry to derail the conversation, but this is a question to OttomanScribe:

Are there different interpretations (or currents) of the Qu'ran as there are of the Bible (as you can see by the myriads of Christian denominations)? As a person that does not know a lot of Islam, it has always appeared to me as a monolithic-block belief, where basically every believer has the same beliefs, in opposition to Chistianity, where a Catholic thinks way different to a Mormon, and a Jehovah Witness thinks differently of a Right-Wing Pentecostalist?
I would say that in some ways it is a bit more monolithic than most other religions, though there are still points of difference, they exist on a few different levels.

The interpretations are less exclusively about the Qur'an though, as, unlike the Christians, Muslim understandings come from a few different sources, the Qur'an is one of the primary ones, but the others include the Hadith (the sayings and guidance of the Messenger of Allah (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) and the practices of the Muslim community in Medina in the period of the Salaf (the three generations after the Prophet's passing).

Throughout history, one can identify three main groups, the mainstream, the sect and the schizmatics. The mainstream are the majority of the Muslims, who are Sunni, and generally have a consensus on most things. The sect are the various forms of Shi'ism, which are in a minority and seperate themselves from the mainstream (my Shi'a brothers may disagree on any points I make, as is their right). Their seperation was initially political but ended up being both theological and legal. Then you have the schizmatics, who were originally the Khwarij, literalists who waged war against the Salaf, and in the modern day are represented by the Wahhabist/'Salafi' movement. This group are made up of a minority who declare all others to be monafiqun (hypocrites) or kafirun (non-Muslims), they are often literalist, though not always, in both the law and theology.

Fiqh: Islamic legal jurisprudence known as 'fiqh' (which translates literally as something like 'the right way of doing things' is probably one of the larger points of difference amongst different Muslim groups. The mainstream of the 'Ahlul Sunnah' (the Sunnis) have four different legal schools, though these schools have a consensus on the vast majority of legal issues. A Sunni can, with clear conscience, follow any of the four, and some take rulings from all four (though this is often discouraged). Their points of difference vary, one example would be on whether one can eat prawns, the Hanafi says no, the Shafi'i says yes. These four schools are called the Shafiyya, Hanafiyya, Hanbaliyya and Malikiyya, or the schools of Imam Shafi'i, Imam abu Hanifa, Imam ibn Hanbal and Imam Malik.

They have these names because they are each based upon the legal methodology of a different Muslim scholar. These methodologies account for their differences, an example would be that the Hanafi places great power in the hands of a scholar in terms of independant reasoning, while the Hanbali places far more emphasis on the 'word of the law' in the sense of avoiding at all costs using the reasoning of the scholar. These debates can be seen in modern American constitutional law (word of the law versus intent etcetera).

The Shia't Ali (the sect) are currently quite different on fiqh matters to many Sunnis, they pray quite differently and have different legal positions on many things. Their law is based primarily on the rulings of numerous 'rightly guided Imams' who come from the lineage of the Prophet (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam). Some of these Imams are also claimed by the Sunnis lol. Imam Jafar as-Sadiq for example is revered as a great scholar by Sunnis, and as an Imam by Shia. The distinction was thus much less before the coming of the Safavid Empire of Persia. They reject the books of Hadith compiled by the Sunnis, and reject the right of Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and (radiAllahu anhu), the first three Caliphs, to make legal decisions.

The schizmatics, the Wahhabi movement, claim a Sunni identity, and some are to a large extent. Their law however is like an extreme version of Hanbali law, for this reason they are often called 'neo-Hanbalis'. They are literalists, both in fiqh and in other forms of thought, and arose in their current form as a rebellion against Ottoman rule, coming out of the Nejd, in what is now Saudi Arabia. They now form a majority in that country, and have influence in many others. They still, thankfully, remain a minority.

One of the main differences I can identify between the three is the transmission of the law. A traditionalist Sunni for example, will take their fiqh from a Sheikh (literally 'old man', a teacher) or a Sheikha. This person will have an 'ijaza' or 'qualification' to teach, given to them from another Sheikh or Sheikha. That Sheikh will have had an ijaza from another, who will have one from another etc. etc. reaching back into the past, finally to the Salaf and the Messenger of Allah (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam). An ijaza is not like a university degree, where one can get a bare pass. It is something that one must exemplify and show that they have not only learnt, but have made a practice of that learning.

The Shia, and I can't claim expertise on this, have a system almost similar, though with less intact chains of scholars, that is far more heirarchical. Their Ayatollahs and Imams dictate to others what positions they can hold, and that dictate is to a large extent binding. The means through which this would occur amongst Sunnis would be debate. The Wahhabist movement rejects the idea of the sanad (chains of transmission or scholars) and instead say that anyone who reads enough can become a scholar and give legal advice/rulings.

Aqidah
: theology, or aqidah, means literally 'that which is firmly affixed' and refers to core beliefs. The differences between Sunnah, Shia and Wahhabi are not that great at the core of aqidah, though they do diverge at some point.

The two Sunni schools of aqidah are the Ash'ari and the Matarudi. These two groups are almost impossible to distinguish, their differences being in things like their idea of salvation and a few other points. They are visciously against any anthropomorphism (ascribing human ideas to God).

The Shia don't really diverge in their aqidah from the Sunni, though I am not that familiar with the picky points of their theology.

The Wahhabist differ in a major point, their Qur'anic literalism leads them to various points of anthropomorphism, though not neccesarily to the point of unbelief. Verses that refer to the 'right hand' of God for example, are not interpreted by most Sunnis to mean 'God has hands'. Many Wahhabis say that one should take it as it is, that God has hands, these 'hands' are just 'laytha kamithlihi shay' (unlike created things). This is a major point of differnce, the wahhabis say the Sunnis disbelieve and the Sunnis say the same of the Wahhabis. Of course neither group is a monolith, and not all Wahhabis have the same understandings.

Politics: an important thing to note is that politics has played a serious role in the differentiation of the three groups. Shiism has formed a rallying point for those who wish to rebel against the established political authority of the Caliphate. The schizmatics have similarly been a rebllious movement, but their goals have been more about reform than usurping the authority of the Caliph.

I am of the Ahlul Sunnah, so this explanation, long explanation, is very pro-Sunni.. clearly lol. So take that into account. I hope I answered sufficiently. I'm sorry it went on, and I'm only really scraping the surface here, if you have more questions, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to tell you :)

Of note is that I consider both the Shia and the Wahhabis to be Muslims. The Shia have a problem in that they contradict Allah's command 'don't form sects' and the Wahhabis are problematic in that they make permissable many things that were never permissable, and they attack the great traditions of the Ummah and spread division. That makes them a problem, it doesn't make them non-Muslims :)

edit: there is another group, the 'progressives' or the 'reformists'. I don't consider them to be of significance, as they diverge from the core of Islamic scholarship to the point where they are almost beyond discussion. These include 'Quran alone': people who reject the hadith and focus exclusively on the Qur'an. They also include the 'Modernist' groups, who look to 'rework' the Sha'riah in the light of technological developments and Western pressure. While there is some good in such movements, in general they are radically secular, and their concept of the religion ends up being worse than even the schizmatics, at least in my opinion.
 
In other news, a question I asked got answered on SeekersGuidance :)

http://seekersguidance.org/ans-blog/2011/07/19/the-place-of-prophetic-medicine-in-the-sacred-law/

The Categorization of Hadiths by Shah Wali Allah

As Shah Wali Allah al-Dehlawi states, in general, narrations from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) are of two types:

(1) That which pertains to conveying the message (risala), regarding which the Qur’an explicitly states, “That which the Messenger brings forth, take it; and that which he forbids, refrain from it” (59:7).

It includes knowledge of Judgement Day and the wonders of the unseen realm, all of which is based upon revelation (wahy).

It also includes legal rulings of the Sacred Law; some of this is based upon revelation, and some is based upon his ijtihad. Yet his ijtihad (peace and blessings be upon him) is akin to revelation, since Allah Most High protected him from his opinion affirming an error.

(2) That which does not pertain to conveying the message (risala), which includes his statement in the incident of fecundating date palms, “I am only a human: if I command you to do something in your religion, then take it; but if I tell you to do something based on personal opinion, then [realize] that I am only human.”

This category includes prophetic medicine; it is based upon personal experience and trial-and-error (tajriba). It also includes things he did based on custom rather than worship, or what he did coincidentally rather than intentionally. It also includes things he mentioned similar to what his people would mention, such as the hadith of Umm Zur`. [Dehlawi, Hujjat Allah al-Baligha]
 

MPW

Member
RustyNails said:
Should have made a new thread in OT for this, bro. It will be unseen by people who don't know about the subject and will only be seen by those who already know about subject.

Edit: not available in your area :(

lol dude come on

ever heard of torrents?
 

dacuk

Member
OttomanScribe said:
Thanks :D no problem, any time :)


Sorry to ask you another question, but this is an idea that I have had on my mind for some months. Is it possible for a non-Muslim (like me) to visit a Mosque and just ask questions to the person-in-charge. I do not know if the "sacredness" (sorry if the word is inadequate) of the place will prevent a non-believer from entering. There is a mosque in my country (Costa Rica, predominantly Catholic) and I would like ot ask some questions to the believers about faith and way of life of Muslims, but I do not want to offend or break any rule. Sorry if this sound too ignorant from my side.
 
daCuk said:
Sorry to ask you another question, but this is an idea that I have had on my mind for some months. Is it possible for a non-Muslim (like me) to visit a Mosque and just ask questions to the person-in-charge. I do not know if the "sacredness" (sorry if the word is inadequate) of the place will prevent a non-believer from entering. There is a mosque in my country (Costa Rica, predominantly Catholic) and I would like ot ask some questions to the believers about faith and way of life of Muslims, but I do not want to offend or break any rule. Sorry if this sound too ignorant from my side.
All good :) it is, oddly enough.. a question I get asked quite often.

The thing with Mosques is that they vary in the way they are run. I know that the ones in my area have no specific 'person-in-charge'. They are essentially communally owned, and the Imam (the person who leads the prayer) is simply selected whenever there is time to pray.

Another important thing is that there is a difference between an Imam, someone who leads the prayer, and an Alim, a scholar. If you are looking for scholarly answers, then asking at a mosque may not net you much of value, more's the pity. If you are just curious about how Muslims live, maybe just rock up sometime after noon on a Friday, wait for whatever is going on to finish, and then ask the people outside the Mosque the questions you wish. I can imagine that that would be a very intimidating thing to do though.

There is nothing to stop a non-Muslim from entering, though you would be encouraged to take a shower before you come (I'm sure you would anyway) and remove your shoes when you enter. :)
 

dacuk

Member
OttomanScribe said:
All good :) it is, oddly enough.. a question I get asked quite often.

The thing with Mosques is that they vary in the way they are run. I know that the ones in my area have no specific 'person-in-charge'. They are essentially communally owned, and the Imam (the person who leads the prayer) is simply selected whenever there is time to pray.

Another important thing is that there is a difference between an Imam, someone who leads the prayer, and an Alim, a scholar. If you are looking for scholarly answers, then asking at a mosque may not net you much of value, more's the pity. If you are just curious about how Muslims live, maybe just rock up sometime after noon on a Friday, wait for whatever is going on to finish, and then ask the people outside the Mosque the questions you wish. I can imagine that that would be a very intimidating thing to do though.

There is nothing to stop a non-Muslim from entering, though you would be encouraged to take a shower before you come (I'm sure you would anyway) and remove your shoes when you enter. :)


Thanks, OttomanScribe. I am not familiar with Muslim blessings, but I hope the Prophet enlightens every one of your days.
 
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