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[choodi]

Thanks for the feedback.

I am not Muslim myself, nor am I a medical professional, so I had to work pretty closely with the Islamic Council of Queensland and with Muslim/non-Muslim health practitioners to ensure that I got the information correct and presented in the clearest and best possible way.

You can actually see me on the cover (purple shirt in the background).

I had heaps of fun doing the work and, for me as lapsed Greek Orthodox Christian, it was extremely informative. The Islamic community was a really good group to work with as well. The President of the Islamic Council is in some of the photos (washing hands) and he participated on our advisory committee too.

I recently put together a similar handbook for Hindu patients and for Sikh patients as well (linked from that page).

Anyway, I am hoping for some more feedback and feel free to pass the link along to anyone who you think might be interested. (Anything to get me more hits so I can justify the expense to the bean counters)

 

[crazy monkey]

Thanks for the feedback.

I am not Muslim myself, nor am I a medical professional, so I had to work pretty closely with the Islamic Council of Queensland and with Muslim/non-Muslim health practitioners to ensure that I got the information correct and presented in the clearest and best possible way.

You can actually see me on the cover (purple shirt in the background).

I had heaps of fun doing the work and, for me as lapsed Greek Orthodox Christian, it was extremely informative. The Islamic community was a really good group to work with as well. The President of the Islamic Council is in some of the photos (washing hands) and he participated on our advisory committee too.

I recently put together a similar handbook for Hindu patients and for Sikh patients as well (linked from that page).

Anyway, I am hoping for some more feedback and feel free to pass the link along to anyone who you think might be interested. (Anything to get me more hits so I can justify the expense to the bean counters)

No problem amazing work. I will my sister lives in Australia so this will be beneficial. I will pass the link along. I hope you get more feedback soon.

 

[Zapages]

All Muslim reality show on TLC: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/21/muslim-reality-show-all-american-muslim_n_1024101.html

What do you guys think of this?

Its set in Dearborn, Michigan

 

[Darth Kupi]

Sorry to quote myself, but i think this post got lost during Ramadan.

Anyone care to give me some feedback?

That's very well done.

Its not overly long and IMO the perfect length and depth to explain to a non-muslim.

Although I disagree about the section on permanent long-term contraception, and blood tests not invalidating fasts.

Maybe its a cultural thing, but here in Pakistan (because of our booming population perhaps) permanent contraception is not considered taboo.

But most people here consider blood drawn to be tested to invalidate that day's fast.

Like I said, might be a local thing.

 

[choodi]

That's very well done.

Its not overly long and IMO the perfect length and depth to explain to a non-muslim.

Although I disagree about the section on permanent long-term contraception, and blood tests not invalidating fasts.

Maybe its a cultural thing, but here in Pakistan (because of our booming population perhaps) permanent contraception is not considered taboo.

But most people here consider blood drawn to be tested to invalidate that day's fast.

Like I said, might be a local thing.

One of the things I found most interesting about the project was the fact that so many of the topics needed to be researched by the Imams as there were different interpretations depending on culture and other considerations.

It was really fascinating for me to observe as the Imams and the Muslim health workers debated about the validity of each point of view and the different requirements of health care workers.

The fact that these topics had been written about by scholars really showed the way that Islam has embraced science over the course of its history too.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

 

[crazy monkey]

^ indeed. Where is ottomanscribe? He is from sydny can provide very good suggestions to choodi.

 

[OttomanScribe]

^ indeed. Where is ottomanscribe? He is from sydny can provide very good suggestions to choodi.

Hey

Sorry guys, after my hiatus during Ramadan, I found it hard to justify the time sink that is NeoGAF, especially with my studies, so I've been kind of out of it.

I've finished for the semester so I might be back at some point.

As to Choodi's questions, in terms of a resource to contact, I'd suggest Imam Afroz Ali at the Alghazzali Centre. He is based in Australia and a trusted scholar in the community. In general the religion is very permissive when it comes to necessary things for the maintenance of health. The imperative to preserve life trumps most other concerns.

http://afroz-ali.alghazzali.org/

 

[SmokyDave]

Good to see you OS.

 

[crazy monkey]

^ indeed.

 

[Ashes]

Eid Mubarrak.

 

[Shanadeus]

Happy eid!

 

[Zapages]

Some good laughs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNWbE3YQ3iM&feature=channel_video_title

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Over the past 18 months, especially, I've seen this huge adoption of the term 'Islamist' when referring to any Muslim state/party and/or Muslim terrorist. It's not uncommon to find articles e.g. 'Islamists gain edge in polls'. Before this period, I had never heard or seen the term and I still am not sure exactly as to what its definition is.

 

[RiZ III]

Yea I'm not sure what that term means either. A group of Muslims leading a Muslim country..gee how strange. It's almost as absurd as having a white Christian leader for a predominantly white and Christian country.

 

[coldfoot]

I'd like to see how one accepts Islam and Mathematics at the same time. To understand this, please read an-Nisa verses 11 and 12, tell me how to divide up the inheritance of a man with three daughters and no sons, who dies and leaves behind his parents, his 3 daughters, and his wife.

According to an-Nisa, the three daughters get 2/3 of the total inheritance after expenses.
Each parent gets 1/6th
His wife gets 1/8th.

If you add all that up, you see it adds up to more than 1. The practical solution to this problem is to reduce everyone's share proportionally so everyone gets a little less than the stated amounts in the Quran. So the daughters aren't getting 2/3rds but instead 16/27ths, The parents get 4/27ths each, and the wife gets 3/27ths. This is a mathematical contradiction, or a "bug" in the Quran.

This, for me, proves that Quran was not from a higher power, but from the Prophet and his lack of rudimentary Mathematics knowledge...I can't think of any reasonable person continuing to believe in Islam after seeing this...

 

[crazy monkey]

http://www.islamchannel.tv/pages/inheritcalculator.aspx

 

[Ashes]

Over the past 18 months, especially, I've seen this huge adoption of the term 'Islamist' when referring to any Muslim state/party and/or Muslim terrorist. It's not uncommon to find articles e.g. 'Islamists gain edge in polls'. Before this period, I had never heard or seen the term and I still am not sure exactly as to what its definition is.

Pretty sure it goes back half a century at least. Have you watched 'the power of nightmares'?

 

[Zapages]

http://www.islamchannel.tv/pages/inheritcalculator.aspx

Good site. Thanks for sharing.

 

[crazy monkey]

Good site. Thanks for sharing.

np.

 

[Ashes]

I'd like to see how one accepts Islam and Mathematics at the same time. To understand this, please read an-Nisa verses 11 and 12, tell me how to divide up the inheritance of a man with three daughters and no sons, who dies and leaves behind his parents, his 3 daughters, and his wife.

According to an-Nisa, the three daughters get 2/3 of the total inheritance after expenses.
Each parent gets 1/6th
His wife gets 1/8th.

If you add all that up, you see it adds up to more than 1. The practical solution to this problem is to reduce everyone's share proportionally so everyone gets a little less than the stated amounts in the Quran. So the daughters aren't getting 2/3rds but instead 16/27ths, The parents get 4/27ths each, and the wife gets 3/27ths. This is a mathematical contradiction, or a "bug" in the Quran.

This, for me, proves that Quran was not from a higher power, but from the Prophet and his lack of rudimentary Mathematics knowledge...I can't think of any reasonable person continuing to believe in Islam after seeing this...

This is old stuff, and on all anti-islamic/anti-religious sites. Here is just one explanation.

BTW, did you seriously think Muslim mathematicians didn't exist? is that not an absurd idea?

 

[Kisaya]

Happy new year everyone!

 

[Zapages]

Happy new year everyone!

Totally forgot about that... Happy New Year Everyone.

 

[coldfoot]

This is old stuff, and on all anti-islamic/anti-religious sites. Here is just one explanation.

BTW, did you seriously think Muslim mathematicians didn't exist? is that not an absurd idea?

Given that you had to be religious to even exist in society for the most part, I know there were...Still, when the only given explanation is cheating, it doesn't convince. I'm sure many muslims don't need convincing anyway, years of brainwashing dogma will do that for you.

 

[crazy monkey]

Given that you had to be religious to even exist in society for the most part, I know there were...Still, when the only given explanation is cheating, it doesn't convince. I'm sure many muslims don't need convincing anyway, years of brainwashing dogma will do that for you.

WTF are you talking about?

 

[Ashes]

Given that you had to be religious to even exist in society for the most part, I know there were...Still, when the only given explanation is cheating, it doesn't convince. I'm sure many muslims don't need convincing anyway, years of brainwashing dogma will do that for you.

We're talking about property shares, not logic in terms of mathematical laws. Relative shares is one theory. Absolute shares is another theory.

 

[Laughing Banana]

WTF are you talking about?

Hahaha. Yay, another one

 

[Ashes]

On that point, it falls on us to inform you coldfoot, that you are a jnr in a heavily moderated thread. It is heavily moderated precisely because of posts like yours. Name calling etc is thought to be childish on any neogaf thread and if you get banned, as a jnr, you're banned permanently.

So perhaps the best solution is to just argue the point and the point alone.

edit: Having said that, you are of course welcome to point out research that suggests people being brainwashed.

 

[coldfoot]

Relative shares is not a satisfactory explanation, especially since it's nowhere to be found in the Quran, which is the only thing Muslims see as absolute. It's simply a math error, and Awl and Radd were invented after the death of the Prophet, since that's the best that could be done without rewriting the verses (which would be impossible since Muhammad was dead).

Besides, I don't see how my post could be interpreted as name calling, but here's a study that shows that most children inherit the religion of whoever raised them:
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

 

[Ashes]

Relative shares is not a satisfactory explanation, especially that it's nowhere to be found in the Quran, which is the only thing Muslim see as absolute. Awl and Radd were invented after the death of the Prophet.

So you want all things to be explained in the Quran and within the prophet's life now? And your argument is that, this surely invalidates the mathematical credentials of the Qur'an.

You are now challenging a different assertion based on a different system.

Besides, I don't see how my post could be interpreted as name calling, but here's a study that shows that most children have the religion of whoever raised them:
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

I think it is safe to assume that Muslim families will raise their children as Muslim. But let us be clear, that you were not clear in airing your thoughts on the matter.

You talked about mathematical principles and argued that some, if not most of the Muslim population would agree to this 'unsatisfactory explanation', because they belonged to a brainwashed dogma. So do you think, by posting that link, which was basically common sense, that you proved the brainwashing part?

 

[IceCold]

Given that you had to be religious to even exist in society for the most part, I know there were...Still, when the only given explanation is cheating, it doesn't convince. I'm sure many muslims don't need convincing anyway, years of brainwashing dogma will do that for you.

I don't believe in religion but come on man, some of the most advanced and important Mathematicians in the history of humanity were Muslims. I'm pretty sure they'd get the math in the Qur'an correct. Especially math this simple.

 

[Prine]

Just wait till coldfoot finds out about the history of the numeric system we use today and who introduced it. The invention of Algebra will give him a heart attack.

 

[crazy monkey]

Just wait till coldfoot finds out about the history of the numeric system we use today and who introduced it. The invention of Algebra will give him a heart attack.

according to him they could not have learned or practiced math since they were Muslim and religious . Sometime I don't know how I am an engineer and a Muslim

 

[coldfoot]

according to him they could not have learned or practiced math since they were Muslim and religious . Sometime I don't know how I am an engineer and a Muslim

It's not like they had any other choice. It was either accept Islam despite its inadequacies or be murdered at those times. Who's to say they didn't do it for social acceptance? The Catholic Church wasn't any better either. I am well aware of the contributions of Muslim mathematicians and scientists during the golden ages of Islam. That still doesn't fix the problem of the math error in the Quran despite the fact that it claims to be the endgame for all religions and the final book. Likewise, there's no mention of snow or the Poles or answer questions such as whether it's acceptable to clean yourself before prayer with snow in the absence of water, because Muhammed had no way of knowing about snow at the time.

 

[Ashes]

The ironic thing about your claims are that it isn't about interpretation; you are trying to use mathmatics to disprove the Quran. And aren't convinced by the explanation, by saying that interpreters are cheating with maths.

It's one thing to be talking about metaphors, but you seem to think the explanations are cheating with maths. Cheating with maths.

 

[Azih]

Relative shares is not a satisfactory explanation

Why not? The Quran doesn't specify that it's absolute shares either.

Awl and Radd were invented after the death of the Prophet

Do you have research for this?

Edit: I mean seriously Mecca was a community of traders and a point of (taxed) pilgrimage since before the Prophet's time. They were more than well versed with the maths required for those activities.

 

[coldfoot]

The ironic thing about your claims are that it isn't about interpretation; you are trying to use mathmatics to disprove the Quran. And aren't convinced by the explanation, by saying that interpreters are cheating with maths.

It's one thing to be talking about metaphors, but you seem to think the explanations are cheating with maths. Cheating with maths.

A valid book of God would have to be as absolute as Mathematics and would leave nothing up to interpretation. When confronted with surah's that don't fly in this day and age, the best that Muslims can do is to play the "interpretation" card. For example the ones that order the butchering of thieves are rationalized in one way or another.

I know there's nothing I can do to convince a brainwashed mind and anything a reasonable and rational person would bring up would be excused by some lame explanation.

 

[coldfoot]

Why not? The Quran doesn't specify that it's absolute shares either.

Then why is it stated there in the first place? Why bother giving all those ratios out that don't add up and then ignore specifying whether you can take it as relative or absolute? Would you do business with such a person? I wouldn't. The world doesn't work like that.

 

[Ashes]

A valid book of God would have to be as absolute as Mathematics and would leave nothing up to interpretation. When confronted with surah's that don't fly in this day and age, the best that Muslims can do is to play the "interpretation" card. For example the ones that order the butchering of thieves are rationalized in one way or another.

I know there's nothing I can do to convince a brainwashed mind and anything a reasonable and rational person would bring up would be excused by some lame explanation.

Say I want to give my 3 daughters the earnings I have made from selling a house. And I sold it for £100. And I split it into 1/3, 1/3, 1/3.

33.33
33.33
33.33
=99.99

edit: Cheers lireu...

How do I divide my property into three exact shares so that none is left over?

 

[Lerozz]

Say I want to give my 3 daughters the earnings I have made from selling a house. And I sold it for £100. And I split it into 1/3, 1/3, 1/3.

33.99
33.99
33.99
=99.99

3x33.99=101.97

I think what you are looking for is 33.33 ...

 

[coldfoot]

Say I want to give my 3 daughters the earnings I have made from selling a house. And I sold it for £100. And I split it into 1/3, 1/3, 1/3.

33.99
33.99
33.99
=99.99

How do I divide my property into three exact shares so that none is left over?

Surely you can add a clause to the book you're introducing as "ALL ENCOMPASSING BE ALL AND END ALL BOOK OF ALL TIMES" a clause that irrational numbers should be rounded down and the remaining fraction should be given to charity or whatever...It's not that hard to think of...

 

[Ashes]

Surely you can add a clause to the book you're introducing as "ALL ENCOMPASSING BE ALL AND END ALL BOOK OF ALL TIMES" a clause that irrational numbers should be rounded down and the remaining fraction should be given to charity or whatever...It's not that hard to think of...

So you can't do it basically, but somehow, er, the god in that book did it. And that's just one math problem.

See, rationality is cold; its an external house that should get even one to criticize oneself. So now I ask you, isn't the explanation provided more rational then the alternative you came up with, and more elegant, and natural?

You see, the problem with absolute shares is--

You know what leave it... You win... I just don't care... My advice to you, is to talk about sharing inequalities between men and women in inheritance laws; you will find that reasonable people are going to be more willing to listen you then. At the moment you're just talking *like* a troll. And not a very clever troll at that. You're not the first, and you definitely won't be the last.

 

[coldfoot]

So you can't do it basically, but somehow, er, the god in that book did it. And that's just one math problem.

How did it do it exactly? By being completely inconsistent with itself? Not to mention being unfair to women as you stated? How do you explain that, women are lesser than men?
What part of it's natural? How do you divide up $100 between your 3 daughters according to Islam? You run into the same problem!

I can easily write a rule to absolutely divide up any inheritance much better than Muhammed could 1400 years ago.

Rationality is always preferable to believing in fairy tales and on belief systems that are no more credible than Pastafarianism.

 

[crazy monkey]

what should we do here.

 

[Heshinsi]

WTF is going on here? Why are we having a discussion on math? lol

 

[Zapages]

after today, having an argument with a friend and defending Prophet Muhammad PBUH for all his battles were in defense and in never in offense. On top of that, He was raging that the Ottomans killed Muslim Arabs long before WW I and killers of their own Muslim brothers... Then ranting all about how Islam is not a religion of peace and Muslim men can marry 4 women but they have to be his sisters. Really making me mad type of situation, which I usually keep my calm upon. ARGHH!!!



I am really sick and tired of all this BS about Islam. :|

Seriously, why you are trying to troll this thread!

Its up to the freakin family to do divide their wealth either Shar'ia means or secular means...

As for women and men being different... No one is less or more in God's point of view. Everyone is judged equally! Men are suppose to take care of women and women are suppose to take care of men. Both of them have special privileges and rights. So take lame BS of women being less than man in Islam out of this thread! Islam gave a lots of rights to women, which the western thinking finally caught up to in the past couple hundred years!

 

[Orayn]

I'm siding with the believers here, coldfoot. There's nothing wrong with (politely) asking honest questions about Islam in this thread, but the Theism vs. Atheism |OT| is where straight-up debates and arguments should take place.

 

[coldfoot]

So take lame BS of women being less than man in Islam out of this thread! Islam gave a lots of rights to women, which the western thinking finally caught up to in the past couple hundred years!

According to the Quran, women get 1/2 inheritance of men, they can't marry more than one man, while a man can marry up to 4 women. This is coming straight from the holy book, no BS. It doesn't look that equal does it?

What about the verses that order Muslims to kill or convert all non-believers? Or how to punish by mutilation? I am not arguing for Atheism vs. Theism, but specifically why God as described in Islam would not be a very benevolent one...

I will stop arguing if this is not the place though.

 

[Orayn]

STOP MAKING ME LOOK LIKE A JERK, FELLOW ATHEISTS!

Seriously, coldfoot. We have another thread for this kind of thing. Trying to carry on this particular argument in this particular thread is not a wise or productive course of action.

 

[Zapages]

According to the Quran, women get 1/2 inheritance of men, they can't marry more than one man, while a man can marry up to 4 women. This is coming straight from the holy book, no BS. It doesn't look that equal does it?

What about the verses that order Muslims to kill or convert all non-believers? Or how to punish by mutilation? I am not arguing for Atheism vs. Theism, but specifically why God as described in Islam would not be a very benevolent one...

I will stop arguing if this is not the place though.

Men can marry 4 women does not mean that they can marry whatever women they want. They first have to get permission from their prior wife or wives to marry again.

The half inheritance is due to when a women gets married she gets things from her parents. At least in South asian culture. I will have to double check on that.

WTF about killing converts... Its only after they are making ruckus and have been told repeatedly to stop or killing you/your beloved ones.

WTF are you talking about mutilation! >: Nothing like that in Islam as far as I know!