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Ohio 'heartbeat' bill banning most abortions passes legislature, on Governor's desk

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A Fish Aficionado

I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Fools. Dupes and dopes.
Easy access to abortion lowers abortion rates.
Limiting makes it worse, and worse for women's health. Less cancer screening and the like.
 

Aristion

Banned
This is false. The burden is always on those that wish to move the State's apparatus towards a certain direction to justify why it should move.

In this case, evidently, you must explain why the state should prevent women from doing whatever the fuck they want with their bodies. Your argument is "because it impacts another person". Then the argument will revolve around whether a fetus is a person, and what are the requirements for personhood.

Well, in this case I'm saying the burden is upon those who wish to argue for the Roe v. Wade decision.

But you're right that the debate revolves around the status of the fetus (whether it's a person).
 
I'll add this legislative mentality to the list of reasons I'll never reside or spend money once in Ohio unless for some reason my plane is delayed there.
 

Not

Banned
As soon as the majority of women are forced to perform illegal abortions in this country, men attain more power because they're comparatively less restricted by their own bodies.

That's what at stake here. Not the potential for human life, but the fair treatment of consciousnesses that already exist.
 

A Fish Aficionado

I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Well, in this case I'm saying the burden is upon those who wish to argue for the Roe v. Wade decision.

But you're right that the debate revolves around the status of the fetus (whether it's a person).
A fetus isn't a person. Not in science or medical terms. A chicken fetus looks identical to a human one. It's called evolution.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Thanks for being the first to give a definition, this is something we can discuss.

The problem with this definition is that viability doesn't seem essential to one's status as a human being.

We can think of an example where I volunteer to continuously cycle my blood through another persons body for about a month in order to keep his kidney's function for that period. If I were to detach my iv cord then he would die (in this example). Does the other guy lose his status as a human being just because he relies upon my body?

A better question is whether you should be compelled to remain attached.
 

hypernima

Banned
How does that change anything? Are you saying that sororicide (killing of one's sister) can't be justified but filicide (killing one's child) is justified under certain circumstances?

It's virtually not relevant because we are considering the context of abortion dude. A sister cannot abort her sister. (Well unless in a context of incest. That got dark quick.)
 

Blader

Member
Well, in this case I'm saying the burden is upon those who wish to argue for the Roe v. Wade decision.

But you're right that the debate revolves around the status of the fetus (whether it's a person).

Roe v. Wade is already the law of the land. The onus lies with whoever wants that to not be the case anymore.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Ohio voted for this governance. Hard lesson to learn, but they will be force fed their classes now. When it impacts their family and they have a fifteen year old pregnant and they find out at seven weeks.

The morons in these states will learn the hard way. Seems the only thing they will believe outside of white supremacist news sites and their facebook feed.
 

Jenov

Member
Thanks for being the first to give a definition, this is something we can discuss.

The problem with this definition is that viability doesn't seem essential to one's status as a human being.

We can think of an example where I volunteer to continuously cycle my blood through another persons body for about a month in order to keep his kidney's function for that period. If I were to detach my iv cord then he would die (in this example). Does the other guy lose his status as a human being just because he relies upon my body?

.

I'm so glad you brought up this example :)

Now please, pass a law banning you from disconnecting yourself from that human being that needs your blood. Let's be consistent after all. You must now force people to donate blood/organs/marrow for the greater good of persevering ALL human life.

If we're going to treat women like donated bodies for the preservation of a potential human life, then surely ALL people should have that same right and demand forced donations. Aristion, I hope you're ready to be forced by law to turn over your own body autonomy, because after all, it would be saving human lives, and that's all that matters.
 

Nepenthe

Member
As soon as the majority of women are forced to perform illegal abortions in this country, men attain more power because they're comparatively less restricted by their own bodies.

That's what at stake here. Not the potential for human life, but the fair treatment of consciousnesses that already exist.

I'm reminded of 1984 and one of its lessons that a sign of an authoritarian regime was restricting sexual activity outside of what the state deemed acceptable, as even biological inclinations of individuality meant there existed the possibility of revolt. If I as a woman have the desire to have sex as much as any man, who is the state to tell me it's wrong?
 

Not

Banned
Ohio voted for this governance. Hard lesson to learn, but they will be force fed their classes now. When it impacts their family and they have a fifteen year old pregnant and they find out at seven weeks.

The morons in these states will learn the hard way.

Morons don't learn. I guarantee patriarchs will just force their daughters to fulfill their God-ordained role of being submissive and controllable mothers.
 

Nepenthe

Member
Morons don't learn. I guarantee patriarchs will just force their daughters to fulfill their God-ordained role of being submissive and controllable mothers.

Well, again, pro-life beliefs waver the most when the women closest to pro-lifers end up needing one for whatever reason. It won't guarantee the law being overturned because you can't guarantee the daughters and wives of lawmakers all getting conveniently pregnant, but it would inevitably guarantee some of these dudes, in the state and in the public, finally empathizing.
 

azyless

Member
6 weeks, seriously ? Can't wait 'til women have to resort to back alleys "abortioners" again and start massively dying from various infections because of "pro lifers"'s disgusting values. As if there weren't already enough roadblocks for an american woman to get an abortion, I'm appalled.
 

Aristion

Banned
I will assume good faith and say you're not trolling, since it's hard to tell on the internet nowadays.

Why do you think women get abortions? Do you think abortion is something women want to have? Do you think they are thinking of it as a moral issue, "it is morally right for me to terminate the pregnancy because of bodily autonomy"? Or do you think women get abortions because of reasons like unexpected pregnancies (rape or otherwise), a fatal defect detected in the child, complication that risks their own life, etc...?

I don't think women want to get abortions, but it doesn't change the fact that it ends human lives. Regardless of their intentions, it's still wrong. Intentions are not the only things that matter.

Yes, abortions are performed regardless of whether it is legal or not. Would you agree, then, that, regardless of your personal feeling on them, abortions are a necessary service/scenario for some women that will be present in society regardless of legal status?

The intentional killing of another innocent human is never necessary. Never.

It might still happen (as I'm sure it will), but the state shouldn't publicly teach their citizens that it's something that should be permitted (passing laws has the effect of teaching citizens moral rules, regardless of whether or not we think that's the case).

Because the article shows that that is the case, it will happen regardless of "moral education" just as there will always be people that need insulin.

So, following your claim of utilitarianism earlier, this means we shouldn't ban it as using resources to ban it does not provide any utilitarian benefit, to say nothing of the negative effects. In the same way that banning insulin wouldn't change its consumption, just drive the purchase of it underground where it is more dangerous and less regulated, banning abortion indisputably leads to dangerous, underground uses of a service that is consistently needed.

Following the above two paragraphs, It follows, then, that banning certain services that are consistently needed, such as insulin drugs or abortions, only leads to more issues that are not beneficial to anyone. Given that these services will always be needed in one form or another, it makes sense that rather than banning those services we instead provide said services in a safe, controlled environment. Even better would be to work on services and policies that would make the need for those other services not as necessary, for example work on sex education, healthcare, condom distribution, etc... have all shown to lower pregnancies and abortions.

I'm just making the point that the federal government intervening (as it did in Roe v. Wade) set a large percentage of the country on a trajectory toward believing that it was morally permissible to have abortions under certain circumstances.

Here's an example: If the government passed a law allowing the practice of bride kidnapping, and if the country was led to believe it was a harsh practice (but necessary to keep legal), doesn't the government have a responsibility to officially ban such a practice (or at least encourage its citizens to stop the practice) regardless of the utilitarian consequences?

And before you say "you're saying the government should hand out drugs and make everyone addicted and that's morally wrong", yes it is, which is why regulating things that are inevitably going to happen tend to work out. As counterintuitive as it feels, needle exchanges work towards lowering drug usage and healthier people.

I should mention that I'm actually not utilitarian, but I did mention utilitarian value just for the sake of argument (just to make the further point about there being no huge negative consequences).
 
Dear clowns in my statehouse,

Here are some quick ideas for more important things to work on if you actually want to help children:

  • Raise the minimum wage
  • Help make child care more affordable
  • Invest in public education instead of giving handouts to online charter schools that nobody actually attends
  • Support decent sex ed programs instead of pushing abstinence
  • Fuck off why don't you

I hope this bill gets fast-tracked through the court system so it can be struck down as soon as possible.
 

Vena

Member
6 weeks, seriously ? Can't wait 'til women have to resort to back alleys "abortioners" again and start massively dying from various infections because of "pro lifers"'s disgusting values. As if there weren't already enough roadblocks for an american woman to get an abortion, I'm appalled.

Not about values, its about controlling women.
 

Aristion

Banned
I'm so glad you brought up this example :)

Now please, pass a law banning you from disconnecting yourself from that human being that needs your blood. Let's be consistent after all. You must now force people to donate blood/organs/marrow for the greater good of persevering ALL human life.

Abortions aren't like disconnecting yourself, but nice try. :)

Abortions usually involve intentionally decapitating the fetus, while disconnecting yourself is just an act of letting someone die (in most cases I assume the person disconnecting doesn't even intend to kill the other person).

If we're going to treat women like donated bodies for the preservation of a potential human life, then surely ALL people should have that same right and demand forced donations. Aristion, I hope you're ready to be forced by law to turn over your own body autonomy, because after all, it would be saving human lives, and that's all that matters.

Not donating an organ is just letting someone die, it isn't actively dismembering them.

:)
 

Pyrokai

Member
Ruth Bader Ginsburg......

Anthony Kennedy......

Stephen Breyer...........


Just stay with us for four more years. Please........
 
Thanks for being the first to give a definition, this is something we can discuss.

The problem with this definition is that viability doesn't seem essential to one's status as a human being.

We can think of an example where I volunteer to continuously cycle my blood through another persons body for about a month in order to keep his kidney's function for that period. If I were to detach my iv cord then he would die (in this example). Does the other guy lose his status as a human being just because he relies upon my body?




My argument doesn't rely upon the notion of a soul nor upon any religious doctrines. We can rely upon science and reasoning to discuss this.

We're all (let's suppose) a cluster of cells, but not all of us are conscious clusters of cells. The question here is to find out when does a cluster of cells attain moral value.

Is it when we are directly capable of being conscious? That's why I brought up the pig example earlier. Many creatures have this ability, but we seem to have this intuition that human infants are still valuable (just as valuable as adult humans) even when infants lack
rationality or other features distinctive of humans.



We (or most humans) seem to be unaffected by the prior consciousness of the animals we eat (unless you're vegan/vegetarian). This seems to suggest that consciousness is not a sufficient condition for moral value, but perhaps it's a necessary precondition. However, that doesn't work either since the reason why we value infants is primarily because of their capacity to be rational (not just that they're conscious, otherwise they'd just be like regular animals).

The reason we value the lives of human infants over that of the lives of other animals is relativism: the inherent drive for the survival of our own species at the expense of others we consume to maintain our survival. The same can be said of other animals with regard to their own infants. It's the most basic of animal drives/behaviors, reliance on the interdependent nature of the food chain. This is not contradictory to my qualifiers of both being viable outside of the mother's uterus (whether via an incubator, blood donations from others, or completely on its own medically speaking) and having the presence of a human consciousness/self awareness/mind.
 
I'm so glad you brought up this example :)

Now please, pass a law banning you from disconnecting yourself from that human being that needs your blood. Let's be consistent after all. You must now force people to donate blood/organs/marrow for the greater good of persevering ALL human life.

If we're going to treat women like donated bodies for the preservation of a potential human life, then surely ALL people should have that same right and demand forced donations. Aristion, I hope you're ready to be forced by law to turn over your own body autonomy, because after all, it would be saving human lives, and that's all that matters.

you do know the counter will be an argument based around personal responsibility, so might wanna speed things along and provide the answer to that too.


(or not, since he went for quite the nonsensical counter. i bow to your methods, good sir).
 

Amir0x

Banned
Morons don't learn. I guarantee patriarchs will just force their daughters to fulfill their God-ordained role of being submissive and controllable mothers.
Many wont learn, but a frequent truth about human nature is that when someone has never experienced the pain of a particular life event, they often fail to empathize.

When their daughters are sobbing and begging not to be saddled with this burden and the fathers gotta tell them there is nothing to be done, many will change and fight against the laws. Enough to eventually overturn Republican governance.

Much human suffering between here and there though. And four years of the abominable monster in the white house emboldening them.

Trump voters deserve nothing but disdain. As do the vast majority of Republicans.
 

Jenov

Member
Abortions aren't like disconnecting yourself, but nice try. :)

Abortions usually involve intentionally decapitating the fetus, while disconnecting yourself is just an act of letting someone die (in most cases I assume the person disconnecting doesn't even intend to kill the other person).



Not donating an organ is just letting someone die, it isn't actively dismembering them.

:)

LOL, so now it's not so much about saving lives... its only HOW people die that matters?? Move those goal posts man...

Banning abortions is being okay with both fetus AND women dying with them due to unsafe practices taking their place. It doesn't actually reduce abortions, you know. This has been proven over history, and in countries that have banned abortions before. You wouldn't save fetuses, you would just have women die with them instead.

you do know the counter will be an argument based around personal responsibility, so might wanna speed things along and provide the answer to that too.


(or not, since he went for quite the nonsensical counter. i bow to your methods, good sir).

;)
 
Is being pro-life a terrible thing? I believe that a fetus has an absolute right to life in virtue of its being a human being.

I honestly don't see how that's an abhorrent position to hold.

Imagine if all of the aborted fetuses were alive today. Good luck finding a job or a parking space. It wouldn't be a bad position if there were a robust support system for these unplanned children once they're born, but the typical pro-life "compassion" seems to end when the kid starts breathing air.
 

Aristion

Banned
A fetus isn't a person. Not in science or medical terms. A chicken fetus looks identical to a human one. It's called evolution.

A fetus is a human being (this is undisputed in embryology), but the question is whether all human beings are persons (this is a philosophical claim).

A better question is whether you should be compelled to remain attached.

This is a good question, and it might depend on the circumstances. I tend to argue that you should, but I don't think the analogy fully captures the situation of abortion (since abortion involves actively dismembering the fetus and so you're not just letting it die; you're actively killing it).

do those narcotics reside in the person's body

Gimme more details.
 
Once again, the main argument for pro-life in this thread seems to be "don't kill another human" but you can easily argue at what "point" the fetus is considered "human".

There's a religious aspect to this argument as well as a anatomical and scientific one.

However the woman's freedom and well being is never really brought up in these arguments.

I used to be pro-life until I realized how it's more patriarchal nonsense and is a heavily religious focused effort which I believe shouldn't be allowed in government as there should be a real separation of church and state.

Stop teaching abstinence, start teaching actual sex education and provide the tools for contraception. Start improving social services and provide for single mothers.

But no, save the fetuses. Moral responsibility.

Aristion, what's your opinion on contraception? Is it also morally wrong?
 
We should start posting statistics and stories about what abolishment of abortion actually means, the consequences of cutting resources, closing down clinics, and stifling education. A vote in any capacity trying to legislate uterus, intrinsically fucking with a women's personal choice and her needs, is some evil shit.
 
This is a good question, and it might depend on the circumstances. I tend to argue that you should, but I don't think the analogy fully captures the situation of abortion (since abortion involves actively dismembering the fetus and so you're not just letting it die; you're actively killing it).

Following that line of thought, do you feel that abortions would be ok if one severed the umbilical cord and waited for the inevitable?

Because i don't quite see a difference between dismemberment or that.
 

Blader

Member
Not donating an organ is just letting someone die, it isn't actively dismembering them.

:)

I believe the outcome is the same in both scenarios, though.

You truly have a Rumsfeld-esque way of handling this debate, though. You've got so many people digressing into these obtuse arguments about Siamese twins and pigs and blood transfusions that it's easy to forget that the fundamental crux of your argument is both historically false (banning abortion does not stop abortion) and reflective of a desire to punish women for having sex (unless you also believe that sex education and birth control access should be widespread and free?).
 

Vena

Member
I believe the outcome is the same in both scenarios, though.

You truly have a Rumsfeld-esque way of handling this debate, though. You've got so many people digressing into these obtuse arguments about Siamese twins and pigs and blood transfusions that it's easy to forget that the fundamental crux of your argument is both historically false (banning abortion does not stop abortion) and reflective of a desire to punish women for having sex (unless you also believe that sex education and birth control access should be widespread and free?).

When you have no defensible point, all you can do is subterfuge and deflect.
 

Ac30

Member
A fetus is a human being (this is undisputed in embryology), but the question is whether all human beings are persons (this is a philosophical claim).



This is a good question, and it might depend on the circumstances. I tend to argue that you should, but I don't think the analogy fully captures the situation of abortion (since abortion involves actively dismembering the fetus and so you're not just letting it die; you're actively killing it).



Gimme more details.

Serious question, what do you propose is done with all the unwanted children that would be born? Is the state supposed to care for them when the parents can't? Because it's all good and well to outlaw abortion but people don't give a damn about the unfortunates.
 

Not

Banned
We should start posting statistics and stories about what abolishment of abortion actually means, the consequences of cutting resources, closing down clinics, and stifling education. A vote in any capacity trying to legislate uterus, intrinsically fucking with a women's personal choice and her needs, is some evil shit.

Statistics? Eh. Doesn't faze 'em. Stories? Now we're talking.

Hey pro-lifers, scroll through this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Major_incidents_and_cases
 
Following that line of thought, do you feel that abortions would be ok if one severed the umbilical cord and waited for the inevitable?

Because i don't quite see a difference between dismemberment or that.

Yeah, the argument seems to be that "passively" letting someone die by choosing not to take action is less morally wrong than "actively" killing someone by choosing to act.

In my opinion both are equally morally wrong, because by choosing not to act and "letting" someone die you actively contributed to them not living.

There seems to be a hang up on the dismemberment action of abortion, so I'm curious to hear his views on preemptive actions like birth control, Plan B, etc.
 

Red

Member
As vile as banning abortion is, it's doubly so when there are no exceptions proposed for rape or incest. Imposing pregnancy and delivery as a moral duty on women who have already been violated, forcing women against their will to provide for and birth the children of their attackers, exploits biology in a uniquely cruel and evil way.
 

Aristion

Banned
Following that line of thought, do you feel that abortions would be ok if one severed the umbilical cord and waited for the inevitable?

Because i don't quite see a difference between dismemberment or that.

Yeah, very good point. So I'd argue that it depends on the circumstances.

So let's say you had a cancerous uterus and if you didn't sever the umbilical cord then you would die. In that case you're not intending to kill your child (you're just intending to save your life), so that would be permissible.

If you're life isn't in imminent danger, it's really hard to make a case for allowing the infant to die. That's why I mentioned that in the disconnection example that I would argue for staying connected to the guy (unless there are extenuating circumstances like family needing you or something similar).
 

Not

Banned
As vile as banning abortion is, it's doubly so when there are no exceptions proposed for rape or incest. Imposing pregnancy and delivery as a moral duty on women who have already been violated, forcing women against their will to provide for and birth the children of their attackers, exploits biology in a uniquely cruel and evil way.

"But God can make it into something beautiful"

Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck them
 

Jenov

Member
By the way, dying because you couldn't find a liver donation is a pretty fucking painful way to go. So I don't see how it's much worse than fetal dismemberment. Silly argument to pin your pro life beliefs on the 'method' of death.
 

DarthWoo

I'm glad Grandpa porked a Chinese Muslim
Well, we already have a pretty dismal maternal mortality rate. Why not drive it down to third world levels?
 
A fetus is a human being (this is undisputed in embryology), but the question is whether all human beings are persons (this is a philosophical claim).

We will have to agree to disagree: a functioning human being is not a human fetus. A human fetus is a stage of embryonic development with the possible outcome of a viable, functioning human animal. And both artificial intervention (abortion) and natural invention (miscarriage/still birth) are possible alternative outcomes.
 

turtle553

Member
Thanks for being the first to give a definition, this is something we can discuss.

We can think of an example where I volunteer to continuously cycle my blood through another persons body for about a month in order to keep his kidney's function for that period. If I were to detach my iv cord then he would die (in this example). Does the other guy lose his status as a human being just because he relies upon my body?

No, once you are born, you are a human forever. You reach a point in development where that status can't be taken away. We can extend this back a couple of months to the point that fetuses are viable outside of the womb.

However, we recognize that life does not have to continue no matter what under certain circumstances. A person on life support can be removed and allowed to die. Often times other people are allowed to make that determination. That doesn't mean they weren't human.

In your extreme scenario, you also aren't required to provide support. Nobody can be forced to use their body to help keep another being alive and this included women who are pregnant.

Do you want to live in a world where you could be harnessed to another person against your will like Mad Max? If you don't want that, then don't force women to do the same.
 
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