It never ends. Women having been seeking ways to end their pregnancies for millennia, and will continue to do so regardless of whatever laws are implemented. You can make it safe and more rare by encouraging sex education and contraception. History has shown that it is even more barbaric to attempt to ban it.
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Ohio 'heartbeat' bill banning most abortions passes legislature, on Governor's desk
- Thread starter ultron87
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It never ends. Women having been seeking ways to end their pregnancies for millennia, and will continue to do so regardless of whatever laws are implemented. You can make it safe and more rare by encouraging sex education and contraception. History has shown that it is even more barbaric to attempt to ban it.
Just want to say I appreciate the debate going on in this thread. I've always challenged my own opinions internally over time and gradually moved from a raised Republican to someone considerably further left than the modern Democratic party, but this is the one issue I've never been able to feel comfortable taking a stand on either way. There is a fairly strong GAF consensus from one standpoint, so it's nice to see the back and forth on it for once rather than the standard rounds of unanimous agreement.
Muppet of a Man
Member
I admire your willingness to hear out others' points of view even if you ultimately don't change your stance. A willingness to debate the nuanced, technical points is what allows for the most progress to be made on issues of all kinds.
And yet you're first concern raised in a topic about a bill the does in fact punish women for having sex is "what's so bad about being a pro-lifer?"
All I'll say wrt that is that it's interesting how often "pro-lifers" seem to prefer the stick to the carrot.
Precisely. Don't like abortion? How about trying to ensure that there's always a better alternative rather than just taking the expedient route and forcing unwanted, dangerous or otherwise unadvisable pregnancies to go forward?Ryuuroden said:
I'm reminded of my grandmother who is anti-abortion but gets all up-in-arms when she hears a story (from you know where) about someone on food stamps having a lobster dinner.
SaganIsGOAT
Junior Member
Are you and others like you lining up to adopt these kids if abortion is made illegal?
That is the problem with moral idealism. Even if you begin with the best intentions, you live in an imperfect world. Better to be a pragmatist and make a real improvement than to stick your head in the clouds and hold out for Shangri-la.
So you will be paying the costs for raising all of these kids then, correct?
Please stay away from women.
Airola
Member
I don't understand these arguments at all.
You both realize "pro-lifers" argue it's about letting humans live instead of killing/murdering them?
Just as you can't tell them that they should be willing to pay the costs for raising people or adopting people when they go against killing/murdering post-birth people, you can't use that argument against pre-birth situations either.
"Please stay away from children."
See, that type of comment does nothing good to the discussion. Both sides can use it. Both sound like the other side is all about noble things and the other is all about horrible evil things. And boths sides just keep on thinking how terrible the other side is.
And all of a sudden coat hanger sales go up, people forget how truly horrifying the other methods of abortion are. They put the women's life at risk. Zero reason to ban it. Abortion should be legal right up until the actual birth. Unless you're willing to adopt the baby yourself, pay for its education, food and clothing, shut the hell up.
Darryl M R
Member
The quality of life for that human being doesn't matter though?
A child could have a serious birth defect, the woman could be in harm of giving birth, the woman does not want the child and plan to adopt/abandon the child, or the woman cannot afford the child and the child will grow up in poverty where his state does not fund necessary resources for him to live to his God given potential are all real life examples that diminishes the quality of life for that child as well as the woman.
Not when it's pitting the life of the child against the life of the mother, such as this bill does. "Pro-life" seems to just push more and more for this kind of no exceptions policy.
Vicetrailia
Banned
It's true, pro-lifers need to evolve from the laser sighted "I only care if it's born, fuck everything else" mindset. It just looks really fucking bad.
They don't care about the baby after it's born. They want to force it to be born despite all. And the solutions they propose are simply "Well don't have sex" or "Well don't have sex and be poor".
They're saying this in a world with all of this effective technolgoy, policies and options. It doesn't make sense.
They don't care about the baby after it's born. They want to force it to be born despite all. And the solutions they propose are simply "Well don't have sex" or "Well don't have sex and be poor".
They're saying this in a world with all of this effective technolgoy, policies and options. It doesn't make sense.
Why can't I tell them that they should be willing to pay the costs of raising babies that were not allowed to be aborted? If they want women to pay the consequences and be forced to carry a fetus they don't want, pro-lifers should pay the consequences for having an abortion ban. And that is by paying the costs of these babies.
Gross. Right up until the birth? That's just as extreme as as no abortion or birth control.
Just because it's legal doesn't mean any doctor/pregnant woman going to actually do it. Do people just think women spend 9 months carrying a baby only to say "fuck it" at the last possible second? Late term abortions happen because of crazy complications and/or really big problems with the fetus. That would especially be the case if we gave women all the tools and didn't have them jump through as many hoops. There's simply no real reason to legislate a decision that's between a woman and her doctor.
Airola
Member
Personally, those two are arguments I can understand. The latter more than the former, but both nevertheless.
Those arguments more or less comes to be about "death is better fate than that" vs. "that is better fate than death", I guess.
SchrodingerC
Member
Though unlikely, I'm hoping Ginsburg will stay on as SC justice until she's on her deathbed. We cannot afford to lose her within the next 4 years.
metalslimer
Member
I'm willing to hear some arguments on why people believe abortion past a certain point is immoral but when you start talking about banning the ability to dump essentially a developing cluster of cells you lose me.
Airola
Member
Yeah, that's bad. I agree on that.
Well, sure you can tell whatever you want, of course
But the logic of that to pro-lifers is just the same as if you would tell them to pay the costs of raising a 5-year-old if they don't allow him to be killed.
All I try to say is that you need to have much better arguments than that if you ever want to turn any pro-lifer's mind. For "pro-lifers" post-birth struggles almost never come first when the other choice is death. I mean, sure they can think struggles are bad, but they surely think not being able to let live at all is worse.
What you're up against bro
What's so ridiculous about the biblical argument is that if abortion was such an important, immoral thing you'd think Jesus would have said something about it. One goddamned thing. As I understand it, the Jewish belief was that a fetus was an extension of the woman's body, and abortion was absolutely around at that time. So if Jesus really had a problem with things, or with the Jewish understanding of things at that time even, he probably would have mentioned it.
Certain biblical readings of the Old Testament laws also deduce that a fetus isn't equal to a human life, too. (You can still find evangelical pro-abortion pieces around if you look enough, and they use that framing)
What you're up against bro
...but how LONG before you were born??!!?!
And round and round and round and round and
Morbidly want shit like this to pass to wake up all the sleeping liberals out there.
With Supreme Court turning republican cases like this now have footing. If it is challenged it will go up to the republican Supreme Court and then people will realize why their vote matters. Just now they will have to wait 30 years for it to change again. Whoopsie! Then they will get older and then yell at younger liberals to vote, who won't because of whatever bullshit they are worrying about and the cycle will continue
With Supreme Court turning republican cases like this now have footing. If it is challenged it will go up to the republican Supreme Court and then people will realize why their vote matters. Just now they will have to wait 30 years for it to change again. Whoopsie! Then they will get older and then yell at younger liberals to vote, who won't because of whatever bullshit they are worrying about and the cycle will continue
Polioliolio
Member
Right out of the fucking Stone Age.
Thanks republicans.
Thanks republicans.
Is there evidence of anti abortion legislation from the Stone Age?
LucidMomentum
Member
I mean judging from the Male Birth Control Pill study and how the same side effects that are viewed as acceptable for women were viewed as unacceptable for men makes that pretty obvious.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Aaron Strife
Banned
Man, it's a good thing we all stayed home instead of voting for Shrillary Killnton. That'll learn 'em.
Okay I just read the first couple pages, then page 7.
Abortion seems to be one of those issues where some people just have fundamentally different beliefs that can't be surmounted. In this case, it's the belief that life starts at conception -- that a zygote has the same rights as a born human being. I don't know what the currently widely-accepted science says about at what point brain activity can be detected or whatever, but that basic belief seems to be the foundation behind everything pro-lifers believe on the issue. They can't get past the belief that a zygote is a person no matter what else you tell them about women's control of their bodies. Another part of that belief is that a pregnant woman's body is not in fact her own, but also belongs to the baby during the pregnancy.
Extrapolating beyond that brings you into "personal responsibility" politics. That brings you into "it's the person's fault for getting pregnant," or "it's the parent's fault for bringing up a child in a poor environment," and "it's their fault for being poor." There you get into clashes between what's "moral" and what human beings actually end up doing. It's like prohibition, it's one of those things that criminalizing is just going to end up criminalizing a whole bunch of people. After that it's a matter of whether or not you believe all those people deserve to be criminalized. It's a matter of whether or not you believe all those women going through with illegal abortions deserve to be thrown in prison.
I think that ultimately brings you to two things: empathy, and whether or not a person believes the world we currently live in is "fair" enough. On empathy, I think the real test of how someone feels on abortion is what they do when someone close to them becomes accidentally pregnant, possibly through rape. What do they do when that faceless person getting an abortion out there somewhere becomes someone they see everyday? On the fairness thing, a lot of people seem to believe people in this country already have equality of opportunity, or at least enough opportunity. That's another fundamental belief that influences a bunch of opinions built on top of it.
Abortion seems to be one of those issues where some people just have fundamentally different beliefs that can't be surmounted. In this case, it's the belief that life starts at conception -- that a zygote has the same rights as a born human being. I don't know what the currently widely-accepted science says about at what point brain activity can be detected or whatever, but that basic belief seems to be the foundation behind everything pro-lifers believe on the issue. They can't get past the belief that a zygote is a person no matter what else you tell them about women's control of their bodies. Another part of that belief is that a pregnant woman's body is not in fact her own, but also belongs to the baby during the pregnancy.
Extrapolating beyond that brings you into "personal responsibility" politics. That brings you into "it's the person's fault for getting pregnant," or "it's the parent's fault for bringing up a child in a poor environment," and "it's their fault for being poor." There you get into clashes between what's "moral" and what human beings actually end up doing. It's like prohibition, it's one of those things that criminalizing is just going to end up criminalizing a whole bunch of people. After that it's a matter of whether or not you believe all those people deserve to be criminalized. It's a matter of whether or not you believe all those women going through with illegal abortions deserve to be thrown in prison.
I think that ultimately brings you to two things: empathy, and whether or not a person believes the world we currently live in is "fair" enough. On empathy, I think the real test of how someone feels on abortion is what they do when someone close to them becomes accidentally pregnant, possibly through rape. What do they do when that faceless person getting an abortion out there somewhere becomes someone they see everyday? On the fairness thing, a lot of people seem to believe people in this country already have equality of opportunity, or at least enough opportunity. That's another fundamental belief that influences a bunch of opinions built on top of it.
Dice//
Banned
People don't have that, sadly. If we did have a better grip of that life would surely be better. But ultimately peeps at the top only have more to lose by 'empathizing'.
Airola
Member
I think here it's where that line of reasoning takes a wrong turn, so to speak.
It is not about who owns what. When pro-lifers are against abortion, they don't say a woman's body is not her own. Instead they say the baby is its own entity even though it's connected to the mother, and even though the mother's body is her own body, she shouldn't have the right to violate the baby's body.
It's not because the baby now somehow owns the mother or that the mother owns the baby. It's all about the baby being its own entity. The mother has the rights to her body, but the baby's body is not her body, so things concerning the baby's body is not anymore about the woman's body and should be treated with different approach.
And their connection to each other - the baby being at its most helpless state without the mother as no-one else can help the baby to survive at that point - makes pro-lifers even more puzzled on how anyone can want to end that life.
You are very much right in saying that this is an issue where people have so fundamentally different beliefs that they just can't be surmounted. Discussions about this get so easily hung on words and what the other side thinks the other side means with those words.
Sometimes the discussion ends when the words zygote and fetus and baby begin to get thrown in. Pro-lifers think pro-choicers obviously should understand why a baby is so important, and pro-choicers think pro-lifers should obviously know why a zygote or fetus doesn't matter so much that they should be given the same rights as post-birth humans have.
But the reality is that the arguments from both sides still hold if you switch the words they use. Pro-lifer doesn't think any less of the new human if they have to say it's a zygote, and pro-choicer doesn't think any less of abortion rights if he has to use the word baby instead of zygote.
And then the arguments just go round and round endlessly. That's because most of the arguments from both sides don't actually address the actual issues at all. The arguments just get lost in between two very different mindsets with very little will to understand each other.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
What you're up against bro
So, when the child dies in the womb because of a miscarriage(or a stillbirth)... God = murderer?
I just want to point out that these arguments aren't really 'insurmountable.' I mean sure you're never going to convince 100% of the people on the other side, but there are people still alive today that were around when evangelicals weren't just pro-choice but were Biblically pro-choice.
Lack of empathy is sadly one reason people are against abortion so fervently but it's also an amazing amount of propaganda meant to appeal to people's emotions.
Lack of empathy is sadly one reason people are against abortion so fervently but it's also an amazing amount of propaganda meant to appeal to people's emotions.
God can't be a murderer 'cause we're all eternal souls bound for hell
God's SAVING us from the damnation that he perfectly designed that needed to exist
crackhead_bob
Member
Can you tell me what steps need to be taken from progressives to make this issue a wholesale winner over the long term? Will emboldened, defiant ownership from a wider swath of women change the tide? Will it take men standing up?
I look at how the gay community was treated back in the 1990's and then compare it to today. I'm straight and support gay rights openly, but I wasn't that way until the early 2000's and a big reason for that was because I didn't want to be branded as gay. Today, I don't have 2 shits to give if I'd be perceived that way for doing so, but I had to undergo a personal growth and personal experience and pop culture played a hand in this.
There's been a longstanding campaign over the decades to stigmatize abortion as much as possible, and unfortunately, too many on the left unwittingly have played into this to the point where we're now having to apologize for something that doesn't need to be apologized for.
I personally feel that once women take ownership of it that they'll be able to curry more support among family members, friends, co-workers, etc.. I also hope to see a more hardy advocacy among business leaders and artists on this issue as well to lessen the stigma. Todd Akin's "legitimate rape" comment caused enough of an uproar to cost him the senate seat in Missouri. So why didn't the prospect of Trump appointing right wing justices to the supreme court not alarm enough people? I know that women who support choice won't take this sitting down. But is that even enough, or will things have to get so bad that even the complacent have to take notice?
When we have Republican legislators still pushing to
"renew our call for replacing 'family planning' programs for teens with sexual risk avoidance education that sets abstinence until marriage as the responsible and respected standard of behavior," when time and time again this approach has been shown not to work, it is increasingly obvious they do not have the best interests of their constituencies at heart. If reducing abortion rates was their concern, they would take necessary steps to reduce the need for abortion. But they refuse that course out of hand. They would literally rather waste millions upon millions of dollars in programs that don't work, instead of investing exclusively in those that do.
Coriolanus
Banned
Hmm. we can test the limits of that idea with a pretty reasonable experiment: what do pro-lifers (you, in this case) think society should do with a person that smokes, drinks, binge eats and/or uses drugs during pregnancy? Should society intervene? How?
Going further, if one is of the opinion that society should intervene, what should society do with the individuals that refuse intervention and repeat those behaviours?
I know that. The republicans have been using the abortion 'debate' as a wedge issue and putting out all sorts of propaganda. I know it's going to take a long time to break through that. I'm just responding to the people who seem to just want to throw their hands up in the air and give up. There are arguments that can get through to some, and eventually I think the propaganda has to start losing its appeal. If nothing else the next generation sees through the bullshit a lot more, anyway.
I don't disagree with you. Politicians of all stripes have at some point or another abandoned science in favor of emotional appeal. But in our current culture there is such a damn clear line between which side is aligned with truth and which with fiction that it's embarrassing things have gone so awry.
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
You need to read some history books, because that is in no way true. Women who don't want to have babies have abortions. In couples who don't want to have babies, the woman has an abortion. When people can't go to safe medical facilities to have abortions they seek other options, which are usually dangerous and potentially lethal.
Have you heard one of the ways people tried to have abortions in China in the 30's before it was legal? They'd go to someone who specialized in abortions, who would say "I know just the thing." They'd tell the woman or the couple to get a rope, go to the top of a bridge, tie the rope around the woman's belly, and then have her jump off. It ended in abortions, but also the deaths of women.
So, if you think life is so important, what is worse, one death or two deaths?
Prohibition doesn't work.
Androidsleeps
Member
BOTH SIDESZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
I'm not trying to do the "both sides" thing, I was just trying to point out that a lot of the arguing in this thread seems to misunderstand where pro-lifers are coming from. I think the first step to getting through to someone is understanding where their coming from and getting into their thought process.
My biggest problem is that religion is always the reason behind these things.
The argument usually boils down to "well I think it's wrong, because I believe in magic."
Like wtf.
Edit: also, as an ohioan I am disgusted.
I know plenty of women who have had abortions, and if it weren't for those abortions both the mother and child would be living miserable lives, the child being neglected, and the mother drinking herself to death due to the extreme poverty of 8.25 an hour with a child to raise by herself.
Edit edit: I'm exaggerating above, but honestly even with my gf and I combined min wage income, I don't even know how we would be able to support a child.
The argument usually boils down to "well I think it's wrong, because I believe in magic."
Like wtf.
Edit: also, as an ohioan I am disgusted.
I know plenty of women who have had abortions, and if it weren't for those abortions both the mother and child would be living miserable lives, the child being neglected, and the mother drinking herself to death due to the extreme poverty of 8.25 an hour with a child to raise by herself.
Edit edit: I'm exaggerating above, but honestly even with my gf and I combined min wage income, I don't even know how we would be able to support a child.
Part of the reason the country has shifted to the right on abortion, or is trying to, is that the people who support abortion rights are also more likely to have abortions. They are diminishing their own populations while anti-abortion people are having more children.
I think most people take a woman's right to bodily autonomy too lightly. I can't imagine a situation where another has any right to the use of my body.
If I grant you consent to use my body to extend your life, say due to kidney dialysis or whatever, I should be free to withdraw my consent at any time.
Pragmatically, anti abortion laws are a detriment to society. Politicians are not qualified to make decisions about someone's clinical treatment and that should be left to the patient and her physician.
If I grant you consent to use my body to extend your life, say due to kidney dialysis or whatever, I should be free to withdraw my consent at any time.
Pragmatically, anti abortion laws are a detriment to society. Politicians are not qualified to make decisions about someone's clinical treatment and that should be left to the patient and her physician.
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