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[YukiOnna]

Sure it was not their peak yet a "struggling Japan" looks like this...

Yeah, it kind of shocked me that they were made fun of or JRPG were thought of as lowly while I was having a blast through that generation. Unless these wumbos are talking about 1 or 2 years of an entire generation or only care about AAA like always, lol.

 

[JimboJones]

Not only FF13 got a trilogy, also Asian games are the most popular these days, they are the ones that have been setting trend all industry wide... Does anybody but GAF know what a Fez is? Lmao

Some would argue that FF13 was peak "this is what was wrong with Japanese development" lol

 

[Kataploom]

Some would argue that FF13 was peak "this is what was wrong with Japanese development" lol

A matter of tastes. I, for example, would have preferred it to stay 100% lineal and avoid the unnecessary open section, while many think the opposite.

Commercial success and industry wide influence isn't a matter of tastes, those are measurable or directly evident.

 

[GHound]

Phil would go on to be served like sashimi. A fate better than a man of his predilections deserved, but his fate nonetheless.

 

[March Climber]

"Western Devs" and it's just Phil Fish and Jonathan Blow being idiots like usual. Thread title made me expect some weird clip of hundreds of devs doing it.

OP wanted to add gasoline to current cultural issues.

It was a bad attempt.

Edit: I was wrong, way more people here are taking OP’s bait than I realized. It was so easy he might as well be playing Sega Bass Fishing.

 

[Judge Magister]

Castlevania LoS was made by Mercury Stream though.

Yeah sorry. Was thinking about Kojima Productions partnership.

 

[Vick]

What a self-absorbed, arrogant cunt Fish was. Surrounded by what appear to be equally awful people, feel genuinely bad for the japanese guy.

Castlevania LoS was made by Mercury Stream though.

True, but inevitably benefited from substantial japanese influence.

MercurySteam, Kojima Productions relationship on Castlevania: LoS was "quite tense"

Castlevania: Lords of Shadow dev boss Dave Cox has told Eurogamer the relationship between Spanish developer MercurySte…

www.vg247.com

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Now Japanese games don't suck. They're just sexist and racist and very, very wrong.

 

[Represent.]

LOL at all these crybaby comments.

He is 100 % right about everything he said.

Their tech DOES suck ass.
There games ARE ugly
Their menus are archaic
Their open worlds ARE empty

Look no further than GameScience VS FROMSOFT

game science made a game that looks vastly superior to anything coming out of Japan on their first go at it.

Look at Nintendo and how they simply do not embrace tech

Look at Team Ninja, and their ugly ass games like Rise of Ronin.

 

[YCoCg]

What's the point of this thread? A circlejerk? He was called out back then for these comments and Phil Fish hasn't been relevant for two console generations.

 

[R3TRODYCE]

The majority do.

 

[Rentahamster]

I feel bad for the Japanese guy in the video. There's no reason to be a dick to him.

I think it's this guy?

x.com

twitter.com

 

[March Climber]

LOL at all these crybaby comments.

He is 100 % right about everything he said.

Their tech DOES suck ass.
There games ARE ugly
Their menus are archaic
Their open worlds ARE empty

Look no further than GameScience VS FROMSOFT

game science made a game that looks vastly superior to anything coming out of Japan on their first go at it.

Look at Nintendo and how they simply do not embrace tech

 

[sachos]

I think I've already posted this in a similar thread since this topic keeps being brought up every so often, but I recommend checking this Archipel doc on the renaissance of Japanese games:

Thanks for sharing, that was cool. I was missing FromSoft/Miyazaki though =P

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

My, how the tables have turned!

 

[Kataploom]

Didn't that dude leave the gaming industry in tears because, amongst other things, people were mean to him on Twitter?.

You'd think he would be less of a dick to people asking him an honest question

Wait, didn't Phil quit gaming and refuse to make Fez 2 or anything else because people were laughing at him or mocking the game

didn't that guy get butthurt and quit gamedev altogether?

0 class answer though, could've approached a question from a clearly passionate fan in a much more tactful way

Exactly, he left because he wasn't enough for the industry, he was too little of a man, not capable, nobody wanted him, had barely any skill and resilience for this.

The worst part is that a bunch of indie, barely anybody with actual portfolio, thought they had any right to laugh at someone with (at the time) experience in important roles at AAA studios, including From Software and Square Enix, it's like if a teenager with a pirated DAC and barely any copycat song in Spotify (made of samples, barely anything of his own) tried to laugh at Steve Aoki or Daft Punk calling them "outdated". Embarrassing af.

 

[Ogbert]

Imagine being that much of a prick.

Listening to a gentleman ask a polite and respectful question and then answering with such glib arrogance.

Cunt.

 

[LazyParrot]

Wha?

Last time i checked 99.97% of western action games control like Re4 and Kill Switch.
Nah, make it 99.99%.

I've never played Kill Switch, but didn't RE4 have those weird tank controls where the camera is always stuck to Leon's back and you couldn't move and aim at the same time? What Western games control like that?

 

[analog_future]

Yeah, they look exactly the type of people who are on the DEI train but bully anyone if they have the chance while producing shitty “games”
Who is laughing now?

Jonathan Blow is literally the exact opposite of what you’re assuming. Anti-woke edgelord that thinks he’s smarter than everyone else.

 

[Icymanipulator]

Braid was never that great imo

 

[Haint]

Why make a thread about a man speaking completely accurate statements? Japan's orbital fall from producing stuff like FF7 in 1997, MGS 1998, Soul Calibur/DOA2 in 1999, Phantasy Star Online in 2000, MGS2 2001, FF11 in 2002, and Ninja Gaiden in 2004....to the absolute dogshit they put out in the "HD Era" is the stuff of legends and a should be studied by scholars for millennia. I don't think any industry in the history of the world has seen such a precipitous overnight cratering as the Japanese game's industry did from 2005 onward.

 

[Kataploom]

Why make a thread about a man speaking completely accurate statements? Japan's orbital fall from producing stuff like FF7 in 1997, MGS 1998, Soul Calibur/DOA2 in 1999, Phantasy Star Online in 2000, MGS2 2001, FF11 in 2002, and Ninja Gaiden in 2004....to the absolute dogshit they put out in the "HD Era" is the stuff of legends and a should be studied by scholars for millennia. I don't think any industry in the history of the world has seen such a precipitous overnight cratering as the Japanese game's industry did from 2005 onward.

That's just a matter of tastes. Never, even in 7th gen, I have thought western games were better than the best Japanese games out there, they only sold more due to them catering more to western audience tastes, which made some Japanese devs try to appeal to west and making their games way worse lol.

There's not a single thing from the west remotely coming close to Xenoblade 3, TOTK, Mario Odyssey, Sekiro, etc. these days. Not a single thing, maybe Remedy Games in atmosphere and story, but even graphically I'll prefer those out of just art direction.

As I said, it's a matter of tastes, so western devs being better than Japanese games wasn't something set in stone, except for technical complexity, in that case we can agree.

 

[lughnasadh123]

Oh god, people already have their dick half in on the 'hate train for western dev's' glory hole, this is just going to make them slam in so hard they knock themselves out.

 

[BbMajor7th]

Blow's point was and still is salient. Text box tutorials that attempt to explain every minutia of a game's mechanical systems while you're trying to hack through first half-a-dozen enemies need to get in the bin. (Falcom are the worst offenders I can think of).

That said, I think Western development has moved steadily in that direction since this was recorded, so now most games have this cloying need to tell you how and where and when to do everything rather than just getting the fuck out of your way.

My feeling is: if your game is good and captures my interest, I'll learn all the mechanics as I go and have fun doing it. If you come between me and that experience with walls of text, I won't learn them, I feel like I have do homework before I can play and I'll lose interest. Focus on making simple actions fun and leave players to explore the complexity themselves.

 

[NeverYouMind]

There's not a single thing from the west remotely coming close to Xenoblade 3, TOTK, Mario Odyssey, Sekiro, etc. these days. Not a single thing, maybe Remedy Games in atmosphere and story, but even graphically I'll prefer those out of just art direction.

Good. Those are mediocre to the point of being sleep inducing and only well regarded due to brand recognition.

Sure it was not their peak yet a "struggling Japan" looks like this...

These were all a major downgrade compared to the PS2 era genre defining titles.

 

[SHA]

I remember that attitude towards Japanese games back in the PS3 Era. Yes there were issues where Japanese Developers were having issues with HD Development but by the time PS4 came out they came back with a Vengeance.

Western Developers attitude towards Japanese games is one of the main reasons why I didn't like the PS3 Era. I found the games in that Era to be good but it was nothing like the PS1/PS2 Era where everyone was doing great and I felt there was more variety from both Japanese and Western Developers

Exactly, seeing there's a difference is fun part, it was never about which was worse.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I remember that attitude towards Japanese games back in the PS3 Era. Yes there were issues where Japanese Developers were having issues with HD Development but by the time PS4 came out they came back with a Vengeance.

Western Developers attitude towards Japanese games is one of the main reasons why I didn't like the PS3 Era. I found the games in that Era to be good but it was nothing like the PS1/PS2 Era where everyone was doing great and I felt there was more variety from both Japanese and Western Developers

Apart from it being a good era for online gaming it’s the only generation I’ve got no nostalgia for.

Can’t remember the last time I revisited any games from that time apart from The Last of Us.

 

[damidu]

Blow's point was and still is salient. Text box tutorials that attempt to explain every minutia of a game's mechanical systems while you're trying to hack through first half-a-dozen enemies need to get in the bin. (Falcom are the worst offenders I can think of).

That said, I think Western development has moved steadily in that direction since this was recorded, so now most games have this cloying need to tell you how and where and when to do everything rather than just getting the fuck out of your way.

My feeling is: if your game is good and captures my interest, I'll learn all the mechanics as I go and have fun doing it. If you come between me and that experience with walls of text, I won't learn them, I feel like I have do homework before I can play and I'll lose interest. Focus on making simple actions fun and leave players to explore the complexity themselves.

there was a stream of blow-hard trying to play breath of the wild, search it, its great entertainment.
moron cant figure out anything, while crying about handholding here

 

[SJRB]

LOL at all these crybaby comments.

He is 100 % right about everything he said.

Their tech DOES suck ass.
There games ARE ugly
Their menus are archaic
Their open worlds ARE empty

Look no further than GameScience VS FROMSOFT

game science made a game that looks vastly superior to anything coming out of Japan on their first go at it.

Look at Nintendo and how they simply do not embrace tech

Look at Team Ninja, and their ugly ass games like Rise of Ronin.

 

[Judge Magister]

These were all a major downgrade compared to the PS2 era genre defining titles.

Well Demon's Souls ended up doing what we know..
But sure, I'm not saying Japan was better. Western devs did Gears of War, GTAIV, God of War 3, Uncharted, Halo 3, Killzone 2, Borderlands 2, Condemned, F.E.A.R., Mirror's Edge etcetera.....

They took time to adapt to the HD/maybe more expensive era but some people here were bashing them like there were no good japanese games during that time.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

Apart from it being a good era for online gaming it’s the only generation I’ve got no nostalgia for.

Can’t remember the last time I revisited any games from that time apart from The Last of Us.

Yeah funny enough I have no need to go back to replay games I already played on PS3 and Xbox 360. Maybe Mass Effect Trilogy which I got for cheap on a Steam Sale. I never played the DLCs. But I heard the version I got is censored so will be looking for mods to fix that

 

[hemo memo]

If you don't know who Phil Fish is, he's the guy who threw a tantrum on Twitter and canceled the sequel to his game. It's funny how this dude is the one to answer like he's a veteran dev.

 

[NeverYouMind]

Well Demon's Souls ended up doing what we know..

Yeah... it inspired a lot of garbage. It had some high points but most of it was really crap.

P.S. There were great Japanese titles during this era, but these were not it. I would say Dark Souls and Dead Rising would be examples of Japanese developers surpassing Western ones despite archaic design elements.

 

[Topher]

LOL at all these crybaby comments.

He is 100 % right about everything he said.

Their tech DOES suck ass.
There games ARE ugly
Their menus are archaic
Their open worlds ARE empty

Look no further than GameScience VS FROMSOFT

game science made a game that looks vastly superior to anything coming out of Japan on their first go at it.

Look at Nintendo and how they simply do not embrace tech

Look at Team Ninja, and their ugly ass games like Rise of Ronin.

No accounting for cultural differences, huh?

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Oh god, people already have their dick half in on the 'hate train for western dev's' glory hole, this is just going to make them slam in so hard they knock themselves out.

My dick’s been fully in the glory hole for 5 years now.

Everytime I try to pull out Microsoft, EA or Ubisoft come along and start sucking it again.

 

[Clear]

What pissed me off as a Western developer about Phil Fish and his type, was their endless back-slapping themselves spending 4 years making titles that generally resembled stuff that small teams were doing in the PS1/PS2 era in half or a quarter of the time.

They milked the "indie" branding so fucking hard, as if small, non-corporate teams hadn't been making stuff since the dawn of gaming.

The epitome of spoiled rich-kids acting like they were so superior... Well, look at them now. Silly cunts.

 

[Aion002]

LOL at all these crybaby comments.

He is 100 % right about everything he said.

Their tech DOES suck ass.
There games ARE ugly
Their menus are archaic
Their open worlds ARE empty

Look no further than GameScience VS FROMSOFT

game science made a game that looks vastly superior to anything coming out of Japan on their first go at it.

Look at Nintendo and how they simply do not embrace tech

Look at Team Ninja, and their ugly ass games like Rise of Ronin.

 

[Judge Magister]

Yeah... it inspired a lot of garbage. It had some high points but most of it was really crap.

I disagree, it was home run. Demon's Souls was outstanding with a very ambiguous yet interesting lore. FromSoftware effort to refine the formula till that point with King's Field or Otogi was worth it.
Dark Souls trilogy is solid and both Bloodborne and Elden Ring are awesome.

Opinions.

 

[Killer8]

Context matters a lot. For as much of a prick that Phil Fish was, he was right about the state of Japanese games in the seventh gen when he made those comments.

 

[ssringo]

Knew it was Phil Fish before opening the thread. Dude sucks. Fez sucks. Japanese games have always been better (as a whole).

 

[SenkiDala]

I mean.... it's phil fish. That guy is such low hanging fruit.

I perfectly agree... But sadly I've to admit that FEZ is a work of art, a masterpiece in the video game industry... That game is so smart it's like out of this world. But yeah the man is a pretentious prick.

 

[hussar16]

The fun starts at 45 seconds

Some highlights: "Your games sucked," "You need to get with the times," Make better interfaces and update your technology," "We're totally kicking your ass, back then you were the kings of the world, but your time has pass."




My oh my how things have changed.

Changed? How both are making money

 

[{insert code here}]

Isn't this like 15 years old? At the time they were right. Western games, for a period of time were the better games. Then DEI happened and , just like how MS fumbled with the XB1, Western developers have fumbled hard. Japanese/Korean/Chinese all make better games now and it's not even close.

 

[64bitmodels]

I perfectly agree... But sadly I've to admit that FEZ is a work of art, a masterpiece in the video game industry... That game is so smart it's like out of this world. But yeah the man is a pretentious prick.

maybe, maybe not. I've not played the game. But the guy who made it sounds like a massive prick in general.

I'll still try and play it one of these days. Seperate art from the artist and all that.

 

[digdug2]

Does anybody but GAF know what a Fez is? Lmao

Yeah, it's a stupid game named after a stupid looking hat by a morally bankrupt turd.

 

[Alexios]

It was just marketing western media were parroting for a while talking up their sponsors. I guess they were comparing the tech of some then low budget/niche series like Tales of to the best AAA from the west or something (talking up jokes like Oblivion and its horrid characters/bugs while at it, lol).

When the budget was there they easily matched up, like Capcom with their MT Framework engine putting out games like DMC4 and RE5. And of course Nintendo even with their underpowered Wii put pretty much anyone to shame with the Pixar-esque visuals of Super Mario Galaxy.

Sadly it affected scores so devs actually took the criticism from Microsoft/Bethesda/whatever sycophants to heart. Probably why RE6 and Lost Planet 2 turned out the way they did (though LP2 looked spectacular still, game design wise, it's not exactly great).

Also it was the gen console only peasants got a taste of PC gaming with devs going multiplatform/having online so they kinda thought every random brown smear shooter was the best thing since sliced bread with unprecedented gameplay.

 

[digdug2]

Good. Those are mediocre to the point of being sleep inducing and only well regarded due to brand recognition.

These were all a major downgrade compared to the PS2 era genre defining titles.

Demon's Souls was a major downgrade to PS2 games?

 

[Boss Mog]

The hilarious part is that Fish's game (Fez) was a rip-off of Japanese games like Paper Mario and Echochrome.

 

[SSfox]

Clown guy maybe don't know that even the few great games and some of the most iconic franchises from the west were inspired and wouldn't even exists without Japanese games.

 

[SSfox]

I remember that attitude towards Japanese games back in the PS3 Era. Yes there were issues where Japanese Developers were having issues with HD Development but by the time PS4 came out they came back with a Vengeance.

Western Developers attitude towards Japanese games is one of the main reasons why I didn't like the PS3 Era. I found the games in that Era to be good but it was nothing like the PS1/PS2 Era where everyone was doing great and I felt there was more variety from both Japanese and Western Developers

PS360 was a downfall for Japan but they still release some great games, while Western Peaked in this gen, imo this was the peak of western Industrie, i bought like 5 or 6 EA games this gen, it was the only gen i bought more than 1 EA game.