ryutaro's mama
Member
Do you know who he passed to have that record? Some nobody named Havlichek.
A guy that never did anything of merit.
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On Friday Timmy D and Kobe play for the 78th time, who has had the better career?
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Do you know who he passed to have that record? Some nobody named Havlichek.
A guy that never did anything of merit.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Spurs always did a solid job vs Shaq, they love the pick and roll like the Jazz did.
No one's saying the west isn't the best, what I did say is that Kobe had better and more dominant teams than Duncan's early 00's squads. During the Shaq era the Spurs were moving from an old Robinson and didn't have a Big 3, feel free to youtube. During the Gasol era the Spurs had McDyess, Kurt Thomas, and Matt Bonner. Duncan did not have a better team throughout his career, it goes in cycles.
I'm a bias ass spurs fan from SA so I'm going with Timmy all day everyday and twice on Sunday. Timmy is humble, coachable, team first attitude and no off the court issues and won't throw teammates under the bus. SA loves Timmy and loves our spurs. I won't trade Timmy for the world. GO SPURS GO!
That is a great comeback and it is God's honest truth.
It is frightening to think what Ced could have done in the NBA if he had applied more than 10% of his powers to just the game of basketball. Yes if that happened many of us would not have been born and the entertainment and music industries might have collapsed, but when you think of how well he could play basketball even with his eyes closed it boggles the mind to think what he could have done if he actually tried.
This is just one of those great debates that you are never going to get a consensus answer on. Like Kobe v. Duncan or who the 2nd best player on the Bulls in the 90s was (after Scottie).
ryutaro's mama
Member
You handed the chips to Shaq like he was just carrying everyone, including Kobe through the playoffs.
That is patently wrong.
LOL. Like Kobe had the better team throughout his.
David Robinson is the forgotten one thanks to Hakeem, but that's from the golden era of centers. The Admiral was better than KG
ryutaro's mama
Member
Kobe scored 81 to impress CC23 (who invented scoring 50).
Kobe is still waiting for that phone call.
Okay I'll give you the quick breakdown of PFs in their prime
-Dirk was the best player on Dallas.
-TD was the best player on the Spurs.
-Barkley was the best player on the 76ers or Suns.
-Malone was 1a) to Stockon's 1b).
-Garnett was the best player on the Timberwolves.
-Webber was the best player on the Kings (might have won an NBA champion).
-Hayes for a long time was the best player on the Bullets.
I will concede that outside of Duncan not a single one of them is a top 10 player. But most of them fall in the top 30 players.
Where did I do that? I mentioned superior supporting cast and coaching as well, are you seriously going to take the early or late '00 Spurs over the Shaq and Gasol era Lakers? Just thinking about Richard Jefferson makes me angry, and that was such a hyped pickup too.
And this part was also mentioned above:
I said it went in cycles, we are in agreement.
Those guys were all amazing players. Not denying that. My original point was just that because TD is the best PF ever doesn't necessarily make him better than Kobe who is "merely" top 3 at his. Aside from TD himself, there really hasn't been truly elite championship winning talent at the PF position where I think the other 4 positions have multiple examples.
When you compare Duncan to other PF's they usually don't have the interior presence (especially compared to Dirk, Barkley, Webber) ; Duncan can play both PF and C. By position you can't deny the big man's impact especially defensively.
To Far Away Times
Member
Duncan is great, but I think he has benefited considerably from being on one of the best run organizations in sports. As individual players I think Kobe was better, but that's no slight on Duncan.
LOL
Apparently, you don't watch basketball
TP was the best in 2007
Kawhi was the clear best player last year.
Good try though.
Kawhi had a MONSTER finals. Tim D was the best player throughout the season (2nd in PPG to Parker, 1st in RPG, 1st in BPG). I think you'd have a hard time disputing that...
Also, throw out last year and he's easily the best player on the spurs on each of the other 4 finals teams. Kobe was not.
edit: "LOL Apparently you don't watch basketball"? Come on, don't be an asshole...we're trying to have a discussion.
IMO it's a wash as to the "better career"... they're both first ballot Hall of Famers, put up great numbers, very consistent, and led teams to championships.
If I were building a team, I'd take Duncan. The inside scoring, his passing, ability to switch between forward and center on offense and defense, protecting the rim, the occasional long midrange two for taking a big out of the paint... hell he's even improved his free throws from when he was younger. I think people tend to underrate big guys because of how prominent perimeter players have become.
If I were building a team, I'd take Duncan. The inside scoring, his passing, ability to switch between forward and center on offense and defense, protecting the rim, the occasional long midrange two for taking a big out of the paint... hell he's even improved his free throws from when he was younger. I think people tend to underrate big guys because of how prominent perimeter players have become.
Shamrock7r
Member
If the question is better career, then to me that has to include the entirety of the playing career, and not just the tangible stats. An argument can be made that many of the lakers down years during the Kobe era were in part because of Kobe, and you can argue that one of the main reasons for the sustained excellence of the Spurs is because of Duncan's personality, home discount salaries, etc.
ryutaro's mama
Member
If I was Shaq in my prime and had Rik Smits and old ass Dikembe and Jason Collins guarding me, I better win Finals MVP those three years.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
Remember how Duncan would always get insecure and demand that his center get traded? Oh wait, that was the other guy.
This is not even remotely true...
I say this as a fan of Timmy's.
EDIT:
Kawhi had a MONSTER finals. Tim D was the best player throughout the season (2nd in PPG to Parker, 1st in RPG, 1st in BPG). I think you'd have a hard time disputing that...
Also, throw out last year and he's easily the best player on the spurs on each of the other 4 finals teams. Kobe was not.
edit: "LOL Apparently you don't watch basketball"? Come on, don't be an asshole...we're trying to have a discussion.
Oh ok, the wording was odd. I thought you meant the postseason.
ryutaro's mama
Member
entremet
Member
Malone and Jordan were also on top 10 of that list.
SamuelSupreme
Banned
This is easily Duncan. Personally I'm a Shaq fan but the top player from the Mid-Aughts is without a doubt Tim Duncan. This man's consistency is legendary.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Naw, let's point and laugh at ball hogging Kobe. What a loser.
Naw, just on each of those 5 teams - hell, every team he's been on - he's consistently been the best player on that team. Kobe hasn't. AND, the Spurs have won fewer than 50 games ONCE in his career (the shortened lockout season). Kobe's amazing. Tim's better (opnion).
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Kobe.
Respect to Timmy tho. He's the man.
Respect to Timmy tho. He's the man.
WesternHeretic
Member
Timmy
Respect Kobe though. 2nd best SG of all time, but Timmy is the best PF of all time.
Yeah! I too am a biased Spurs fan.
Oh and off-topic but since I never saw it discussed on GAF anywhere and thought it was cool:
He had and his custom car shop got to be in a Punisher comic - he is a big fan.
Dion Blaster
Member
I think this is one of the most interesting sports debates. Anyone who thinks there is an obvious answer is kidding themselves. Not to cop out, but the fact they play different positions and had such different career trajectories makes it really hard to compare. Being a Lakers fan, I would say Duncan by a hair. Kobe in his prime was better though.
I don't think that's a logical way to compare players, Kobe gets penalized simply because MJ existed. There are a couple centers (the position Duncan essentially played) I would take over TD anyways.
I don't think that's a logical way to compare players, Kobe gets penalized simply because MJ existed. There are a couple centers (the position Duncan essentially played) I would take over TD anyways.
shadowstar
Member
If we limit the discussion to talent, Kobe no contest. If you factor in everything else such as being a teammate, a leader or follower, contracts, etc I pick Duncan.
If I had the knowledge of the now in the past and I could draft either and build my franchise around them, I'm taking Duncan.
If I had the knowledge of the now in the past and I could draft either and build my franchise around them, I'm taking Duncan.
I only found out when I heard about this comic. It's a custom detail shop. Their site is down, so I don't know if something happened recently.
Their Facebook page is still active: https://www.facebook.com/BlackJackSpeedShop
Black Mamba
Member
It's very close. Obviously, I'm biased so I'll take Kobe but I mean, you can't go wrong either way. And FWIW, I'm a huge Timmy fan.
If we're including money in this, then anyone with half a brain takes Kobe because he's earned a shit ton more money in his career. But just in terms of basketball you're mostly splitting hairs.
They've both got about the same individual and team accolades.
I think a couple things put Kobe ahead for me, besides me being obviously a bit biased.
1. Kobe's been the 7 Finals opposed to Duncan's 6.
2. Duncan lost as a 1 seed, a 2 seed, and multiple times blew a 2-0 lead.
Essentially, Duncan has lost numerous series with HCA whereas I believe Kobe has only lost twice, and in both cases it was to a team 1 seed below. Those Duncan upsets really stick out. Also, Duncan never won back to back titles, which is just so hard to accomplish.
On the flip side, Duncan's always won 50 games. He's been luckier in terms of talent around him but that goes into one potentially having a better career. A better player on a shitty team makes for a worse career.
In the end it comes down to Duncan's regular season consistency versus his playoff inconsistency (as a team, not individual) in terms of success and which outweighs the other. For me the latter does and bumps Kobe slightly above.
But again, I'm biased.
If we're including money in this, then anyone with half a brain takes Kobe because he's earned a shit ton more money in his career. But just in terms of basketball you're mostly splitting hairs.
They've both got about the same individual and team accolades.
I think a couple things put Kobe ahead for me, besides me being obviously a bit biased.
1. Kobe's been the 7 Finals opposed to Duncan's 6.
2. Duncan lost as a 1 seed, a 2 seed, and multiple times blew a 2-0 lead.
Essentially, Duncan has lost numerous series with HCA whereas I believe Kobe has only lost twice, and in both cases it was to a team 1 seed below. Those Duncan upsets really stick out. Also, Duncan never won back to back titles, which is just so hard to accomplish.
On the flip side, Duncan's always won 50 games. He's been luckier in terms of talent around him but that goes into one potentially having a better career. A better player on a shitty team makes for a worse career.
In the end it comes down to Duncan's regular season consistency versus his playoff inconsistency (as a team, not individual) in terms of success and which outweighs the other. For me the latter does and bumps Kobe slightly above.
But again, I'm biased.
If we're including money, I'd actually look at it the other way (Timmy intentionally taking less money to make his team better), but I understand what you mean.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
the 2003 and 2005 Spurs are by far the worst supporting cast out of the 10 championship teams both players played on.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Tim Duncan was clutch in 2004 with the game on the line against the Lakers...until Derek Fisher out clutched him.
#oneluckyshotdeservesanother
Black Mamba
Member
I'm including endorsements in money. No one would take Timmy over Kobe. The amount is so vast they'd be crazy.
teruterubozu
Member
Dude's Hawaiian too.
Haha no I'm saying I agree with you. If money is included in the discussion, I think the lower salary makes Timmy even better (since he allowed the org to spend more on the rest of the team)
Why does money matter? I thought this was about basketball, not a vague discussion on "clutchness" or the like.
Black Mamba
Member
Duncan's only made less money for a couple years now.
Early in Kobe's career, he was paid way less than Duncan.
It's the endorsement money that makes a difference. Kobe making only $11 mil per early on allowed them to pay other dudes. It's just Duncan took the pay cut late and Kobe did early.
But your point really doesn't have much to do with whose career one would take, you're more trying to argue who the better player is (which is a different argument altogether).
I answered that.
curlyfriski
Banned
So the guys that have scored more than Kobe have also missed less shots than him?
ryutaro's mama
Member
Actually they played on 13 championship teams between them. They won 10.
2007 gave Robert Horry entrance into the "7Rings and Higher" club.
(Michael Jordan need not apply)
KidA Seven
Member
That stat shouldn't be used in a negative manner to Kobe. Kobe's efficiency was still above average, it just wasn't as good as Jordan's or LeBron's. Kobe was always going to top that list with his high volume of shots and the length of his career.
You guys are acting like he's Iverson.
This argument is crazy. You don't win 5 championships playing at Kobe's level by being a bad teammate. Period. Only recently...when players care more about friendships than winning...has this ever been a problem.
Crazy though...for Gasol not being considered a "tough" guy he's had NO problem playing with the man.
It's no shocker, who many consider to be GOAT, picks Kobe everytime when it comes to who he'd have as a teammate. It's also not Kobe's job to save the Lakers money when he makes them so much of it. Build a team...it's always been this way and nothing should change now because Duncan saved the smaller market Spurs some cash.
Khalifa Jayy
Banned
Are you serious right now?
The Spurs had the best record in the entire NBA in 2001 (58-21)! Yet they got steamrolled by Kobe and Shaq to the tune of a 4-0 broom slap across the face. To say they weren't a good team isn't just disingenuous, it's a damned lie. They were the best team in the regular season. But Kobe and Shaq went ham on 'em, specifically Kobe aka the road warrior (seriously, go check the splits between home/away. Kobe killed the Kings & Spurs on the road.)
ryutaro's mama
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