But then whose was hokage?
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One Piece Manga |OT| ZEHAHAHAHA! The Name of this Age is Blackbeard!
- Thread starter TheGreatDirector
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Kureha, she was tsunade before tsunade was tsunade
I actually stopped reading beach sometime close to the beginning of the spirit nazis arc. Did the story somehow find a way to make less sense than what was there at that point? I always wondered.
You know, I'll bet anything it's just the complete set of Dragon Ball manga.
Bleach is a total mess. But looking back, I feel like it has been ever since the Aizen arc ended.
Devil Fruit and a bunch of other stuff are probably remnants of the old world before the void century, it seems to be a thing in manga where the fantasy worlds are often taken place thousands of years after an incredibly advanced civilization getting wiped out, and most of the things were artificially created, things like super power, etc.
Cloud Strife
Member
Anyone who isn't expecting this hasn't been paying attention. It's been in the works since before you were born.
It's too bad. Like Naruto, Bleach showed a lot of early promise, though it faltered much quicker. If Tite Kubo took like a single Narrative 101 class, something really nice might have come out of it.
igordennis
Member
You dont know what you are missing out on. Bleach makes so little sense now that 17 completely white pages would develop the plot more than whatever it is we get every week. I dont know why i read it honestly.
BobTheFork
Member
Morbid curiosity, that's why I do it.
I just lost the point of reading it. The only thing that kept me going before was the occasional really cool design. That stopped a while ago, so I just stopped.
Reading Naruto, now THAT'S morbid curiousity. I think I read maybe 200-300 chapters weekly, which is several years, before I finally rage quit.
You guys think I'm harsh on OP, but Naruto is fucking vile in it's bare ass incompetence. It helds a special place in my heart for being my gateway anime and manga, so it hurts more than a little to have to admit that has the single greatest drop in quality I've ever seen in a story, having gone to "Great with a lot of potential!" to begging for the sweet release of death. Character's I've been with assassinated left and right as Kishimoto ran out of ideas, decided to go back and ruin the good ones he had, and...ugh.
One day, I'll go back and tear it apart on such a level that you guys will know how gentle and soothing I am OP in comparison. But I don't know when I'll be emotionally prepared to do that.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I like Naruto...
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Nothing wrong with that bro
BobTheFork
Member
It had it's moment, then lost them, then somehow got them back before just turning into shit. Somewhere between having the same villain the entire time (inuyasha) and changing the main villain 3-4 times during the final arc (Naruto) there will be the promised land.
MHA is awesome, Deku is one of the most likable protagonist in a while.
Cloud Strife
Member
It all went to shit after chapter 599.
I was a full on Naruto fanboy until that point. Now I feel like shit whenever I think about all the awesome Naruto memories and where the story ended up. Ugh.
Cloud Strife
Member
Kishimoto just couldn't justify the power creep in such a short span of time effectively. Within 100 chapters you go from Naruto blowing up a group of enemies to him blowing up mountains. In an even less amount of time he turns into Jesus. It was like a pointless acceleration that felt awkward given the more relaxed fam-jam ending. The only thing I liked was the scene where Sasuke monologues and Naruto gives him back his headband.
Yeah that's probably the exact moment shit became unsalvageable.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
Why does this often end up with people talking about Naruto or Dragon Ball when there's no new chapter to discuss? Surely those mangas have their own threads.
They do.
Dragon Ball thread is barely active, more people are in the DB Super thread as that's the hot thing right now.
No idea what's happening in the Naruto thread. I haven't bothered with it when it erupted into shipping talk 24/7. Supposedly they put a ban on that, but it was bad
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
Kishimoto lost his long time editor a little before that arc so I think it had a lot of influence on how it played out.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
It's crazy just how much influence editors have on how a manga progresses, I almost feel like they should be getting credit on the volume covers or something.
Re: the spoilered Naruto bit,
I genuinely thought Sasuke was saying that to try and trick Tobi, and thought it was a long con to work behind the scenes like his brother, but NOPE. Agreed it's one of the stupidest things the manga did.
I felt the real change the time skip happened. The first arc wasn't super offensively bad, but it was slow and boring and accomplished little, whereas any of the pretimeskip ones had more going on. Then it wavered in quality up until the Sasuke point, where it ceased to make any sense on a character level.
But there was also another point later on, which I can't quite remember where it is, but then Kishimoto started straight up character assassinating. Characters that had no business being comic relief started making weird jokes and being friendly. Orochimaru
came back to life,
saying his parents loved him
revealed to have loved him
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
Kishimoto is my favourite pokemon, because he has the ice cream-ice cream fruit.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Naruto went south when ninjas stopped using bad ass ninja techniques and started using kamekamehas.
Kakashi was the 1000 justsu copy ninja who only used a few all the time. Sharingan was ovedone, side characters were tossed aside for new ones way too often. Naruto trains for a few years and comes back basically the same.
Naruto started off so great story wise but it went downhill pretty much after pain. There were still issues before that but they could have been fixed. Also the way orichimaru was handled was a travesty. He was so damn scary when he was first introduced :/
The art much like bleach was great beginning to end however. The guy can fucking draw his ass off!
Kakashi was the 1000 justsu copy ninja who only used a few all the time. Sharingan was ovedone, side characters were tossed aside for new ones way too often. Naruto trains for a few years and comes back basically the same.
Naruto started off so great story wise but it went downhill pretty much after pain. There were still issues before that but they could have been fixed. Also the way orichimaru was handled was a travesty. He was so damn scary when he was first introduced :/
The art much like bleach was great beginning to end however. The guy can fucking draw his ass off!
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Naruto peaked at Pain, but I feel like the only true dips in quality were the Sasuke retrieval arc (which wasn't... bad, per say, just boring) and the Great Ninja War (which honestly felt like fan fiction). Tobi and Madara were fantastic villains in a bad arc and the entire series was leading up to their appearance. The Ninja War is the strangest manga story arc I've ever read because of
A) How long and drawn out it is
B) The stupid ass plot that is stupid as hell
C) The legitimately cool battles that happen within said stupid plot
D) Weird one-off moments that have some of the best plot in the entire series wrapped around said stupid ass plot (
fighting together, Itachi and Sasuke
, Madara backstory)
So, yeah. Naruto did dip in quality at times but I honestly enjoyed it from chapter 1 to chapter 700+10 in some way or another.
Now, since this is the OP thread, I'll say that I feel pretty much the same way about One Piece. One Piece doesn't have any moments where the writing really heads south (in fact it's gotten better and better) but it has the special distinction of having two or three characters in every arc I hate with a burning passion (Lola, Satori, Foxy's stupid assistant girl, Kokoro and Chimney, etc.) and sometimes overusing the same jokes again and again (Chopper's gullibility, Usopp's lies, etc.) which are sometimes done well but can also get very grating. So, One Piece and Naruto are about equal in my eyes, and they always have been, although I have a special respect for Oda for keeping his manga running so long without a Great Ninja War style cop-out and an actual increase in storytelling quality.
Bleach kills me inside because it started out so good. Soul Society is a fucking masterpiece of a manga and the rest of the series turned into a joke.
A) How long and drawn out it is
B) The stupid ass plot that is stupid as hell
C) The legitimately cool battles that happen within said stupid plot
D) Weird one-off moments that have some of the best plot in the entire series wrapped around said stupid ass plot (
Itachi and Nagato
reconciliation
So, yeah. Naruto did dip in quality at times but I honestly enjoyed it from chapter 1 to chapter 700+10 in some way or another.
Now, since this is the OP thread, I'll say that I feel pretty much the same way about One Piece. One Piece doesn't have any moments where the writing really heads south (in fact it's gotten better and better) but it has the special distinction of having two or three characters in every arc I hate with a burning passion (Lola, Satori, Foxy's stupid assistant girl, Kokoro and Chimney, etc.) and sometimes overusing the same jokes again and again (Chopper's gullibility, Usopp's lies, etc.) which are sometimes done well but can also get very grating. So, One Piece and Naruto are about equal in my eyes, and they always have been, although I have a special respect for Oda for keeping his manga running so long without a Great Ninja War style cop-out and an actual increase in storytelling quality.
Bleach kills me inside because it started out so good. Soul Society is a fucking masterpiece of a manga and the rest of the series turned into a joke.
I'm not expecting to deal with the Space Pirates until whenever we get around to running into Capone Bege (which might be soon since he seems to be running with Big Mom and is after Caesar). His ship was sucked up into a giant moon-like thing in the sky way back before the time skip, and that's never been mentioned again.
Good pull, I forgot all about that.
Aaronrules380
Member
Obito was a mediocre villain, who had good ideas going for him, but awful execution.
Madara was a terrible villain, who really only existed as powerful ancient bad guy with no real thematic weight or ties to the hero. He existed pretty much just to be final boss. Until Kishi realized he wasn't sure how Naruto could beat him, so he created a more powerful villain to usurp him, but this one had a really simple glaring weakness that could be exploited so they'd actually be beatable (I'm also basing this on his quote from Jump festa where he said he wasn't sure how Naruto could beat Madara, as well as from the direction of the plot). Madara was built up sure, but only in the sense that he was some powerful ancient old guy. He lacked any substance, and Obito should have been the final villain to be honest, because at least Kishi had an angle there. Still better than fucking Kaguya though
Also, I thought most of the battles in the later part of Naruto were pretty awful, because they relied too much on OMG super powerful attacks without good choreography, and they were really fucking hard to follow with the way they were drawn, which is one of the worst sins you can commit in making an action scene
To me the moment I stopped reading Naruto was when
It was not a chakra infused piece of wood even, it was just a piece of wood flying really fast, and they had time for two different characters to get in the way of the wood.
The best way I could compare why is so dumb, just think about how Ace protecting Luffy played out. We have a clear setup and quite a few excuses of why that played out the way it did.
In Naruto they clearly had enough time to do anything else. You could push Naruto out of the way, you could use the palms thingy to get some force out of the piece of wood. Anyyyything.
The only great Manga with no flaws at all is Gintama.
Neji died.
You see, I am no Neji fan, but he was clearly setup as a reliable character, so the way he died was completely, 100% Stupid. First Naruto is tired, then Hinata decided to get in the way of a BIG PIECE OF WOOD. Seriously, that is all it was, a piece of wood, and then Neji is like "Welp I guess I could get in the way of the wood instead" and he sacrifices himself for Hinata that was sacrificing himself for Naruto.
You see, I am no Neji fan, but he was clearly setup as a reliable character, so the way he died was completely, 100% Stupid. First Naruto is tired, then Hinata decided to get in the way of a BIG PIECE OF WOOD. Seriously, that is all it was, a piece of wood, and then Neji is like "Welp I guess I could get in the way of the wood instead" and he sacrifices himself for Hinata that was sacrificing himself for Naruto.
It was not a chakra infused piece of wood even, it was just a piece of wood flying really fast, and they had time for two different characters to get in the way of the wood.
The best way I could compare why is so dumb, just think about how Ace protecting Luffy played out. We have a clear setup and quite a few excuses of why that played out the way it did.
In Naruto they clearly had enough time to do anything else. You could push Naruto out of the way, you could use the palms thingy to get some force out of the piece of wood. Anyyyything.
The only great Manga with no flaws at all is Gintama.
I think we can all agree that it would have been for the best if Naruto ended after the Pain arc. Sure, there was still Akatsuki, but with a little more time to plan it it could have been a awesome sequel with a plot that actually matters to the main series.
Naruto Gaiden was nothing more than a 3-month advertisement for the Boruto movie
Naruto Gaiden was nothing more than a 3-month advertisement for the Boruto movie
And another chance to dig at poor Sakura.
For me, Naruto never got any better beyond the Sarutobi/Orochimaru fight. There were other cool moments few and far between, but that was tops in my book.
Cloud Strife
Member
Yup, Naruto is acknowleged by the village demonstrating that his obssession with being Hokage didn't really matter.
The whole Hokage thing gets weird when Obito comes back and the edo tensei gawds, Naruto got his recognition after the Pain arc so I'm not quite sure what the obsession was there.
Anywho, the "Perhaps that's what makes us ninjas." in 699 made the bullshit Kaguya stuff and half-assed final battle almost worth it.
BobTheFork
Member
Not trying to be off-topic but are here already.
The most aggravating thing to me (in terms of writing) is how nothing at all can ever be implied, especially with emotion. It's laughable bullshit that every dead character get's to magically come back and have an actual conversation with the character they left. Fuck you! Naruto and Gaara's parents and Ino and Choji master (name not found) and others. He was just wiping his ass with Pathos the last 100 chapters and many other times.
The most aggravating thing to me (in terms of writing) is how nothing at all can ever be implied, especially with emotion. It's laughable bullshit that every dead character get's to magically come back and have an actual conversation with the character they left. Fuck you! Naruto and Gaara's parents and Ino and Choji master (name not found) and others. He was just wiping his ass with Pathos the last 100 chapters and many other times.
More Fun To Compute
Member
The end of Naruto wasn't nearly rushed enough. What he should of done was kill Sasuke instead of Jiraiya and not make a huge rod for his own back by resurrecting every strong fighter in the history of the Naruto universe.
Well you see the opposite problem in One Piece. At times Oda leaves the readers room to draw their own conclusions and then gets ripped into by people who can't, or refuse to, read between the lines and meet him halfway. Either way, you'll be pissing off a part of your readership.
BobTheFork
Member
But Saske was the re-incarnation of one of the two most important Ninjutsu brothers we had never heard of before 50 chapters from the end, he was somehow crucial to the story.
Ok, I'm done I swear!
Thatch's corpse for next Nakama!
To each their own but I VASTLY prefer leaving us to decide and discuss. I don't like being beaten over the head with it (feels insulting).
Let them struggle to figure it out.
I totally agree with you on this, it's just better writing as well, but I totally get why Kishi did it the way he did. Even in this thread you see some people who refuse to meet authors half-way.
More Fun To Compute
Member
Eh. Turns out that Madara just wanted a shot at the end boss himself and fights along side Naruto. Instead of meeting both his parents Naruto grows by forgiving Madara and skipping a long fight that dragged out the end. Win win.
Really? I'm not saying your wrong, but Oda is very explicit in his emotion showing. Not the way Naruto is, where characters literally say "I am happy", but I can't recall much in the way of ambiguity either. Can you give an example?
I wasn't specifically referring to emotion there. I was talking about his more general point, not his sub point.
Oh, I see. Still, can you give an example? Most of what he leaves ambiguous seems to be left for future reveals.
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