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[jeff_rigby]

"could" is what I can agree with because the system is proven capable to support the technology (it seems as I see in this thread). Now "will" means that you have information about it from Sony.

So, any insider info jeff_rigby?

Insider info was available in 2013 but none since except for Papers that give an outline of coming features that match what was mentioned in 2013. In 2013 a Microsoft employee stated the XB1 would support 4K blu-ray and a Sony employee stated the PS4 has a HDMI 2 port and another that it will support 4K Media. The Drive for the PS4 is then the only issue not addressed in 2013.

In early 2015 on the UHD Blu-ray forum a Mod stated he was told that PCs wouldn't need a special drive to support UHD Blu-ray. That started my researching what the requirements for the drive were but that the XB1 could support UHD Blu-ray with a drive released in 2013 meant that there was no reason the PS4 couldn't.

Again, Adam's position and yours is reasonable but I don't think anyone argued that threads stating the current consoles can't support 4K in any form were wrong. I took offence with that and stated the opposite and supported it.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I wouldn't take the bet because I have consistently acknowledged the possibility of UHD BD support. If you believe I'm flip-flopping, you're misreading. Please quote any posts I've made to the contrary.

Adam, maybe you forget the posts where you quote Ito and where you mock me for disagreeing with Ito who should know what the PS4 can support.

Yes, except for those you have been consistent and that was why I stated you were reacting to my being so definite about Ito either being ignorant or supporting a NDA. If you still believe Ito then you can't hold that it might be possible. Which is it? Do you now believe Ito is wrong?

 

[Adam Tyner]

Adam, maybe you forget the posts where you quote Ito and where you mock me for disagreeing with Ito who should know what the PS4 can support.

I haven't forgotten.

These are the possibilities:

1) Ito says the PS4 in its current form can't support UHD BD. He's correct.
2) Ito says the PS4 in its current form can't support UHD BD. He mistaken, fundamentally failing to understand Ultra HD Blu-ray as a format and/or the capabilities of the hardware he oversees.
3) Ito says the PS4 in its current form can't support UHD BD. He knows it can, and work is in-progress to achieve this, but this isn't ready to be revealed yet. Rather than sidestep around the issue, he lies about the hardware not being capable, to the point of delving into specific technical reasons why the PS4 can't play UHD BDs.

If #1 is the case, there's no further discussion.

If #2 is the case, then that's a bit of a clusterfuck. It's possible that Ito has since been corrected and work could be underway. It's possible that they've worked some sort of technical miracle and accomplished something they previously believed to be impossible or prohibitively expensive to implement. It's possible that the misunderstanding continues and any miracle or additional work is somewhere off on the horizon. It's possible that nothing will happen at all. Presumably it means that no progress is going to be made on the current model in the short term, at the very least.

If #3 is the case, why would Ito respond the way he did? If he were limited in how he could respond, why not just say something non-committal like "we're always evaluating possibilities" or "there are currently no plans"? What does he or anyone gain in saying that the drive isn't capable and that there's a need for a dedicated HVEC decoder if none of that is correct? What NDA is there likely to be about a console that's been on the market for a couple of years supporting a format that's already been announced? To my mind, this is the least likely of the three possibilities above.

There's also the possibility that Ultra HD Blu-ray is no longer quite the format it was initially envisioned as being. What someone said two and a half years ago or what a whitepaper listed once upon a time may no longer be accurate. I would think that Ito is more privy to that sort of information than we are.

If you still believe Ito then you can't hold that it might be possible.

It's not a matter of believing Ito; it's a matter of what Ito believes. If the PS4's resources can indeed be rejiggered to support UHD BD but Ito firmly does not believe it's possible, then that's an avenue that Sony might not ever seriously pursue. The outcome could be the same as if the PS4 were not being capable at all. That's why I take issue with the use of "will" in the thread title. Even if support is technically possible (which we don't know 100% for certain), Sony might shrug off UHD BD altogether for the PS4 in favor of its own 4K service. There are so many other things the PS4 is capable of doing that haven't been implemented yet.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I haven't forgotten.

It's not a matter of believing Ito; it's a matter of what Ito believes. If the PS4's resources can indeed be rejiggered to support UHD BD but Ito firmly does not believe it's possible, then that's an avenue that Sony might not ever seriously pursue. The outcome could be the same as if the PS4 were not being capable at all. That's why I take issue with the use of "will" in the thread title. There are so many other things the PS4 is capable of doing that haven't been implemented yet.

3) Ito says the PS4 in its current form can't support UHD BD. He knows it can, and work is in-progress to achieve this, but this isn't ready to be revealed yet. Rather than sidestep around the issue, he lies about the hardware not being capable, to the point of delving into specific technical reasons why the PS4 can't play UHD BDs.


If #3 is the case, why would Ito respond the way he did? If he were limited in how he could respond, why not just say something non-committal like "we're always evaluating possibilities"? What does he or anyone gain in saying that the drive isn't capable and that there's a need for a dedicated HVEC decoder if none of that is correct? What NDA is there likely to be about a console that's been on the market for a couple of years supporting a format that's already been announced? To my mind, this is the least likely of the three possibilities above.

The day of the PS4 release someone stated it wouldn't support DLNA or CD. DLNA uses the HTML5 <video> player which will also be used for ooVoo, HD and UHD blu-ray and IPTV and Miracast and must have C-ENC hooks to support multiple DRMs via MCE EME for the browser and apps as well as embedded Playready. They are all routines in the Southbridge TEE and can't be done piecemeal. Sony has plans to support Vidipath so DLNA is required and CD is in the documentation. I believe Sony wants to support DLNA 4 out of the gate and DLNA 3 requires 4K IPTV while DLNA 4 only requires Playready ND for 1080P. This also applies to the PS3 not being able to be updated piecemeal. Both the PS3 and PS4 have 256 MB of system memory for media and OS APIs.

I believe Sony knew there would be a two year plus wait for all these standards to be ready to write into Southbridge and didn't want us moaning about how long it was taking. They lied to us, Sony had plans to support Vidipath so DLNA is required . Because of the backlash Sony wrote a temporary DLNA app called Media Player without DRM.

They lied to us in 2013 so why not now for the same reason?

The XB1 got a totally new OS with the last major update I think for the same no Piecemeal update reason as it was the one that supported HEVC. (This total new OS was mentioned in the Beta support site.)

 

[Adam Tyner]

They lied to us in 2013 so why not now for the same reason?

It's not apples-to-apples. Did they ever say that support for those features is beyond the capability of the console, to the point of providing specific technical reasons why? Not to my recollection. Saying "_____ is not supported" is worlds removed from "this is not technically feasible and will never happen".

Besides, the console's been on the market two and a half years without support for audio CDs, something that by any measure should be trivial to implement. (FWIW, the Xbox One plays CDs, although it requires downloading an app to do it.) If CDs take little-to-no effort to support and still can't be played after multiple years, why are you so certain that it'll be such a different story with Ultra HD Blu-ray discs (which would require a far more significant level of effort)? If anything, that refutes your "technical possibility == absolute certainty" mindset.

I just can't buy into that sort of conspiracy theory about why Ito would respond the way he did. If he were trying to maintain a secret, there are tried and true ways to accomplish that without blaming the lack of an HEVC decoder or the optical drive. People in his position swat away those sorts of things every day. I'm not saying that Ito is correct about Ultra HD Blu-ray support being beyond the capabilities of the PS4 (maybe he is, maybe he's not), but I do believe that Ito is saying what he believes to be true.

 

[jeff_rigby]

It's not apples-to-apples. Did they ever say that support for those features is beyond the capability of the console, to the point of providing specific reasons why? Not to my recollection. Saying "_____ is not supported" is worlds removed from "this is not technically feasible and will never happen".

Besides, the console's been on the market two and a half years without support for CD, something that by any measure should be trivial to implement. (The Xbox One certainly plays CDs, although it requires downloading an app to do it.) If CDs take little-to-no effort to implement and still can't be played after multiple years, why are you so certain that it'll be such a different story with Ultra HD Blu-ray discs? If anything, that refutes your "technical possibility == absolute certainty" mindset.

I just can't buy into that sort of conspiracy theory about why Ito would respond the way he did.

CD support is not a good example other than there is a disconnect in what is planned and implemented likely related to a roadmap. Sony has had those 2 and a half years to remove CD info from the Sony PS4 manual but hasn't yet done so I suspect because it's still coming. CD play will be again a Southbridge low power OS feature that's coming with the other Southbridge routines. It's probably tied to a Metadata Menu feature for Music similar to a Media Library with Metadata..

Vidipath support was planned for since since before 2006 by Microsoft, Sony and others and it's not been released yet.

I found this article on Vidipath from the 2006 viewpoint that gives a good summary, it's worth a read. A retired from Sony speaker mentioned this after he complained about Sony's secrecy mindset:

Yamada did spend 34 years at Sony before retreating to the Ivory Tower at the Kyushu Institute, but clearly his is a scholar&#8217;s approach these days.

Yamada said the key to success is to examine the process: Standards lead to competition, which lead to improved consumer products, which lead to more sales, which lead to more content, which lead to a better situation for the consumer. He said that if TV standards differ from state to state, or country to country, nobody wins. He advised the industry to move to a state of minimum DRM because content creators want more, not less, people to see their products &#8211; that the industry should not lose out on big business opportunities by looking at DRM systems that may be beautiful, but prevent distribution. "Different country codes just make customers unhappy," he said.

Yamada went on to recommend a re-consideration of the PC as an audio-visual appliance. He characterized the TV as being an appliance for vision and sound, designed for looking at content made by others, and one that comes with a simple user interface. Alternatively, Yamada characterized the PC as a device that provides tools for creating solutions that may include vision and sound. He said the PC is also an input device, and are also gaming devices. He said a PC, if paired with a TV, can help consumers watch the content they themselves have created, while still providing PC capabilities and a gaming machine.

Yamada had a slide: It illustrated a PC that provided an IP phone, a TV and gaming console, an archiving device for entertainment content, and a machine for working with conventional applications like Word and PowerPoint. He argued that it&#8217;s the PC that should be seen as the long-term audio-visual appliance, and concluded: "The consumer owns the living room, so make them feel happy."

Yamada said the consumer will be happy if the device they use is fun, convenient, and a quality product that provides all of the features they&#8217;re looking for. He ended: "New FUNction is the killer app."

UHD Blu-ray has no country codes, TV is moving to a world wide standard, DRM with Vidipath is less intrusive, The PS4 and XB1 are essentially PCs with very simple UIs that also play games. Nearly everything is open standards.

 

[Trojita]

The thing I don't understand about you going on about this is.

EVEN IF what you are saying is true and the laser technology and processing inside of the PS4 is capable of reading a 4K Disc (which again hasn't been confirmed by anyone)

How do you reconcile the fact that PS4 is running an older version of HDCP? All 4K Discs of any note from all major publishers will require HDCP 2.2.

You can't firmware upgrade HDCP. The HDCP version is in the HDMI 1.4 Transmitter inside the PS4.

The publishers will not let you bypass HDCP 2.2 requirements to watch 4K Discs.

 

[Skelter]

The thing I don't understand about you going on about this is.

EVEN IF what you are saying is true and the laser technology and processing inside of the PS4 is capable of reading a 4K Disc (which again hasn't been confirmed by anyone)

How do you reconcile the fact that PS4 is running an older version of HDCP? All 4K Discs of any note from all major publishers will require HDCP 2.2.

You can't firmware upgrade HDCP. The HDCP version is in the HDMI 1.4 Transmitter inside the PS4.

The publishers will not let you bypass HDCP 2.2 requirements to watch 4K Discs.

I'm guessing the inevitable PS4 remodel will have HDCP 2.2 and everyone else will be screwed. I hope I'm wrong but like you said, this isn't something that can be upgraded in a patch.

 

[Ragnaros]

This thread title really needs to be changed. When you google "Will PS4s play 4k Blu Rays?" this is the first hit. With the upcoming 4k blu rays in March it's not cool to mislead curious people.

 

[Veritigo_X]

This thread title really needs to be changed. When you google "Will PS4s play 3k Blu Rays?" this is the first hit. With the upcoming 4k blu rays in March it's not cool to mislead curious people.

Yeah, I don't know how it's been left like this for so long. It's really misleading.

 

[jeff_rigby]

The thing I don't understand about you going on about this is.

EVEN IF what you are saying is true and the laser technology and processing inside of the PS4 is capable of reading a 4K Disc (which again hasn't been confirmed by anyone)

How do you reconcile the fact that PS4 is running an older version of HDCP? All 4K Discs of any note from all major publishers will require HDCP 2.2.

You can't firmware upgrade HDCP. The HDCP version is in the HDMI 1.4 Transmitter inside the PS4.

The publishers will not let you bypass HDCP 2.2 requirements to watch 4K Discs.

The movie industry for UHD Blu-ray requires the HDCP to take place in the same TEE that the AACS decryption takes place, it be firmware update-able and provide watermarking for forensic tracking. This eliminated the standard HDMI chip where HDCP took place in the HDMI chip The PS4 HDCP takes place in the PS4 Southbridge TEE and the Custom Panasonic HDMI chip supports up to 120 FPS which is needed for VR and possibly UHD Blu-ray HFR and IS NOT available with any HDMI 1.4 chipset. It's in the OP guys.

There is no such thing as a 4K or UHD drive, It's in the thread and CONFIRMED.

 

[Colonel Nasty]

WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE CHANGE THIS FACTUALLY INCORRECT TITLE

 

[mrklaw]

WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE CHANGE THIS FACTUALLY INCORRECT TITLE

The *possibly* factually incorrect title?

 

[jeff_rigby]

The *possibly* factually incorrect title?

Yeah, several of the mods are very technically competent and have in the past locked threads that reflect poorly on NeoGAF. I'd also note that one thread that stated the PS4 and XB1 can't support UHD Blu-ray was locked.

The OP by mocoworm for the locked thread: New 4K-Capable PS4 And Xbox One Consoles Coming This Year, Predicts Netflix was very well done but the HEVC profile 10 release by Microsoft for the XB1 which Microsoft stated; "for example will be used for Netflix IPTV 4K", requires a HDMI 2 with HDCP 2, that made the OP provably wrong. The XB1 had provably two of the three needed hardware features for UHD Blu-ray. With the understanding that a modern HD blu-ray drive is also a UHD drive that means the XB1 can support UHD Blu-ray.

The PS4 from a hardware breakdown provably has HDCP taking place in the Southbridge Trustzone TEE which is what is required by 4K media. Connecting the dots that implies the PS4 is also a 4K platform (mentioned by Sony is 2013 as was the HDMI 2 port). I had previously pointed out that the XB1 and PS4 have blocks of GPGPU that will be used for Vision, Audio and Codec support and at least for AMD and Microsoft proved it is composed of Xtensa processors. I make the assumption that Sony uses the same (Confirmed for True Audio) but late 2012 had speculated that it would be a small low power GPU because Sony, Microsoft and AMD had patents on managing a low power and high power GPU for different media power modes, this is also seen in the Xbox 720 Yukon slide. With research on Xtensa DPUs, they can also be used as GPUs.

Edit: I brought up the mocoworm thread because I think some are still remembering the No HDMI 2 port mentioned by him. That is factually incorrect but it comes up in this thread every few weeks. The OP in this thread is not being read.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Yeah, several of the mods are very technically competent and have in the past locked threads that reflect poorly on NeoGAF.

You've also said that there is a UHD BD test player for game consoles, indicating that either the Xbox One or PS4 (or both) have UHD BD support underway. There is no evidence of such a player, and you're misinterpreting a category available for licensing as an actual product (and also confusing the multiple components addressed in that category as being a single entity).

Do you think that gaffe reflects poorly on NeoGAF?

Also, the locked thread you reference was not closed for being technically inaccurate, despite what you're suggesting.

 

[Vashetti]

Currently, there has been no official announcement, so the title should read something like: "The PS4 will possibly support 4K Blu-ray", at least.

 

[Elandyll]

Currently, there has been no official announcement, so the title should read something like: "The PS4 will possibly support 4K Blu-ray", at least.

Agreed. The definitive certainty in the title is somewhat puzzling imo.

 

[DeepEnigma]

It has been this title since July of last year, and this is all you two got out of this thread?

lol

 

[jeff_rigby]

You've also said that there is a UHD BD test player for game consoles, indicating that either the Xbox One or PS4 (or both) have UHD BD support underway. There is no evidence of such a player, and you're misinterpreting a category available for licensing as an actual product (and also confusing the multiple components addressed in that category as being a single entity).

Do you think that gaffe reflects poorly on NeoGAF?

.

Adam, why is Game Console mentioned at all? PC Player is mentioned and a PS4 or XB1 is as far as hardware is concerned is a PC without normal PC expansion. The XB1 is a PC with a simpler Windows 10 UI, a PS4 is different in that the TEE is custom and the OS is custom. Every APU and GPU that is capable of supporting UHD blu-ray will have different UHD player drivers but there is no provision/License for the different APUs and GPUs. It's just PC. .

Why is there a licence for a Game Console Player or Test player? Because it's expected to be needed. The only platforms that can be UHD blu-ray players are PCs, Game Consoles and Blu-ray players and there is a License for each. If there is a UHD drive and the PS4 and XB1 do not have one, that would be common knowledge and no licence for Game consoles would be available. Same applies to HDCP 2 and HEVC support.

Given it's a Licence for a Game Console, for the above logic to be wrong must assume ignorance on the part of the Licencing board which has Sony corporate representation. Your logic also assumes the PC and Player licence don't mean UHD PCs and players are coming either. It's easier for an embedded PC without expansion to support DRM = PS4 and XB1. It would be easier for the game consoles to support UHD blu-ray than PCs.

Why does the company that makes the 3 layer disk manufacturing equipment state in their site that they expect the PS4 to be a UHD blu-ray player to kick start demand for UHD disks.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Why is there a licence for a Game Console Player or Test player? Because it's expected to be needed.

...which is by no stretch of the imagination the same thing as:

Again; there is a test player for Game Consoles I cited above. You don't address this other than to respond to my stating what will happen if the XB1 supports UHD blu-ray and the PS4 doesn't. One or the other has to support UHD Blu-ray for their to be a test player!

"Expected to be needed" != "their (sic) is a game console test player!"

As for this:

Your logic assumes ignorance on the part of the Licencing board which has Sony corporate representation.

What are you talking about? I'm not assuming anything of the sort. In fact, everything I'm saying is predicated on not making unfounded assumptions.

Your logic also assumes the PC and Player licence don't mean UHD PCs and players are coming either.

Um, no, it doesn't, which is why I said earlier that:

The page you link to includes "Game Console" as a component of an available business category. It looks like a traditional, standalone UHD BD player would be licensed under the same category, and nowhere does it say that anything has actually been licensed under these terms for a game console.

I don't know what's so difficult to comprehend. The existence of a licensing option doesn't mean anything more than the option exists. There's obviously the expectation that it could be used (otherwise, they wouldn't make the option available), but it doesn't signify anything greater than that. Making the massive leap that since there's a licensing option for "Movie Players, Game Consoles, and Test Players" there inherently must be a test player for the Xbox One or PS4 -- not just in the future, but existing now -- is not grounded in reality. It's absolutely possible that Sony or Microsoft have licensed UHD BD for their consoles, but that cannot be reasonably gleaned from the information available.

 

[Wiped89]

PS4 is clearly not going to support Ultra HD Bluray, not without a hardware revision.

It was created at a time when there were no plans for an Ultra HD disc format, and even when it released, it was not a certainty one would be created. It was set up to potentially stream 4K one day if needed - which is why it's got HDMI 2. That's it. That's also why you need to buy a new Bluray player to play the new discs. The 4K BD disc drive is different in spec, and vastly different (ie more strict) in its new piracy protection measures.

A hardware revision would be cool though. I'd buy a PS4K, which would be an awesome name for an Elite-style model with Ultra HD disc capabilities and a few extra bells and whistles.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Why would they need to publicly advertise a console licence if Sony is guaranteed to be the first and only customer?
Sony would already be signed up if they intend to support this.

 

[jeff_rigby]

PS4 is clearly not going to support Ultra HD Bluray, not without a hardware revision.

It was created at a time when there were no plans for an Ultra HD disc format, and even when it released, it was not a certainty one would be created. It was set up to potentially stream 4K one day if needed - which is why it's got HDMI 2. That's it. That's also why you need to buy a new Bluray player to play the new discs. The 4K BD disc drive is different in spec, and vastly different (ie more strict) in its new piracy protection measures.

A hardware revision would be cool though. I'd buy a PS4K, which would be an awesome name for an Elite-style model with Ultra HD disc capabilities and a few extra bells and whistles.

Gesh read the OP. The hardware to make a three layer blu-ray disk was shipping October 2013. It is a blu-ray disk able to be read by ANY modern blu-ray drive. The DRM requirements were developed in 2007 and are part of BD+. BD-ROM mark has been on blu-ray disks for years. What got stricter is the TEE requirement and HDCP taking place in the TEE not the HDMI chip. The BD-ROM mark has a volume ID that is used as part of the AACS encryption key. AACS 2 uses the same and optionally requires an on-line key before the decryption can be unlocked.

There is no such thing as a UHD drive. It's a modern drive complying with the 2010 BD-R specs which makes it a version 2 drive.

What are the business categories available under the ROM4 FLLA?

Ultra HD BD-ROM Media

Ultra HD BD-ROM Movie Player/Game Console/Test Player

Ultra HD BD-ROM PC Drive

Licensee shall ensure that each Ultra HD BD-ROM Movie Player and Ultra HD BD-ROM PC Drive is not allowed to playback any Ultra HD BD-ROM Media unless such Ultra HD BD-ROM Media includes Ultra HD BD-ROM Mark. [BD-ROM Mark is a small amount of cryptographic data that is stored separately from normal which again does not require a different drive just that the player look for and properly use the mark...]

AACS 2 & BD+
Ultra HD BD-ROM PC Application Software

Ultra HD BD-ROM CAV Content
Ultra HD BD-ROM Component, and
Ultra HD BD-ROM Tools and Manufacturing Equipment / Ultra HD BD-ROM Testers

Following links leads to a page where the companies getting the BD-ROM V.4 License are listed

Media Memory-Tech Holdings Inc., Sonopress GmbH, Sony Corporation, TECHNICOLOR SA

Movie Player/Game Console/Test Player Dongguan Digital AV Technology Corp Funai Electric Co., Panasonic, Samsung Electronics, Sony Corporation

PC Drive Hitachi-LG Data Storage, Inc.

PC Application Software CyberLink Corporation, sMedio, Inc., Sony Corporation

Authoring System Jargon Technologies LLC

Component Socionext, Inc. Sony Corporation, ViXS Systems Inc.

Tools & Manufacturing Equipment/Testers Sony Corporation

Commercial Audiovisual Content Deluxe Media Inc. Panasonic Corporation, Japan, Radius60 Studios LLC, Sony Corporation, TBS SERVICE, INC

That Sony is listed almost everywhere but Microsoft isn't and Sony has a UHD PC application licence means Microsoft Windows 10 platforms including the XB1 will use either Cyberlink, sMedia or Sony PC applications.

Found this on the same site:

5. Licensee shall ensure that each Ultra HD BD-ROM Game Console manufactured by Licensee does not play back any Ultra HD BD-ROM Game Media unless such media is protected either by its own proprietary content protection system or Ultra HD BD-ROM Mark. New Production Format Models of Ultra HD BD-ROM Game Consoles are subject to verification of compliance with the applicable part of Test Specification pursuant to Schedule B. The portions of New Production Format Models of Ultra HD BD-ROM Game Consoles that are responsible for detection and response to the absence of ROM Mark will be required to comply with the compliance and robustness requirements of Schedule H.

Licensee shall ensure that AACS Online and Online Certificate Verification is implemented in each Ultra HD BD-ROM Movie Player, Ultra HD BD-ROM Game Console and Ultra HD BD-ROM PC Application Software which complies with &#8220;BD-ROM Profile 6&#8221; as specified in the &#8220;System Description, Blu-ray Disc Read Only Format Part 3: Audio Visual Basic Specifications: version 3.XX.

The UHD player (Not drive) is required to support the following DRM:
Ultra HD AACS version one for legacy and Version 2
AACS on-line needed for Version 2
On line certificate verification (White list certificate)
Ultra HD BD-ROM Mark part of BD+ 2007 format/DRM that can only be made on a BD-ROM in the factory. **This is the only drive requirement I can find and PS3 drives support this**
Ultra HD BD+ stricter DRM BD+ virtual machine running in the TEE

 

[jeff_rigby]

Adam, there are plans for UHD Blu-ray on Game Consoles by the BDA association. The 2013 Microsoft employee quote supports this:The Xbox One supports both 3D and 4K Blu-ray discs at present. &#8220;There&#8217;s no hardware restriction at all,&#8221; said Microsoft&#8217;s Yusuf Mehdi at the time to Forbes. That's UHD blu-ray and UHD 3D which no released blu-ray player supports. HEVC for cable and antenna TV has to support multi-stream and multi-stream plus depth supports 3D. 4K 3D uses a depth map to reproduce the 3D image and this adds little to the size of the 4K 3D movie or stream but does require more memory and processing power. There is no 4K 3D TV also, this is coming. HEVC plus depth will be used for Sony's AR browser applications...this is one of the big drivers for Facebook buying into Occulus. A 1080P or 720P S3D HEVC stream will be one quarter to one half the size and half the bandwidth of a current 1080P mono stream.

There is no hardware restriction. How does he know this before the UHD Blu-ray format was finalized? Because Microsoft planned to have UHD support and made sure the hardware could support UHD Blu-ray. Of course the software could not be written until after the standards were released.

Sony employees (3 different people) say in 2013: 1) The PS4 can support 4K media, 2) The PS4 has a HDMI 2 port, 3) The PS4 hardware is feature proved to support many new coming features. There are two proposals in front of the FCC for a Downloadable security scheme. One has the APP written by the Cable company using the HTML5 <video> EME MSE hooks in the TEE. Same will be true for UHD Blu-ray.

When and you are correct that while unlikely one or the other could decide to not support UHD Blu-ray while supporting Streaming UHD media. While Microsoft quotes are the most definite about supporting UHD blu-ray, they have no licence from the BDA association while Sony is involved in almost everything that can be licenced. Is this because UHD Blu-ray is coming late to the XB1? I don't think so. What is different about this generation consoles that might impact this question?

Everything is Open source standards except DRM but not including C-ENC (low level hooks for DRM have Standard APIs) which supports the HTML5 <video> MSE EME which Playready follows. A UHD blu-ray PC application which Sony has licenced from the BDA must use those standards supported by the platforms OS. The same low level routines in the TEE to support UHD IPTV streaming could and probably will be used to support UHD Blu-ray. The application Sony writes for a PC can be used in the XB1 and PS4 if they follow these standards that are required for Vidipath and the coming world wide TV (ATSC 3 in the US). BD+ has to run in the Tee as does the AACS decryption. Those have to be part of the ARM TEE and provided by the Platform holder or as part of a driver update from AMD for AMD APUs and dGPUs in PCs. Third party apps can not have access to the TEE except as APIs.

I can wildly speculate that Sony might be writing the UHD Blu-ray player application for the XB1 except for the UI (all the ARM TEE code) and Microsoft is providing the ARM TEE code to support Playready 3 and ND in the PS4. This could explain the Microsoft domain registration of microsoft-sony.com.

Edit: There is enough proof the hardware in both the PS4 and Xb1 can support UHD blu-ray and both can support all the TV and 4K media coming during the life of the Consoles. I'd like to table this and move on to features that are coming that will have some mandated and some speculated depending on the platform owner.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Adam, there are plans for UHD Blu-ray on Game Consoles by the BDA association.

Can you provide quotes from, say, the past 6-9 months accordingly? Otherwise, saying "there are plans" is supposition. That game consoles can conceivably license UHD BD is not the same thing as there being plans.

There is no 4K 3D TV also, this is coming.

I'm not sure about that, at least on any sort of meaningful scale. 4K 3D is absolutely nowhere on the horizon from a content standpoint, and television manufacturers have lost all enthusiasm for 3D. Fewer and fewer models are launching with 3D. If there's near-total consumer apathy for 3D at home, why would 4K 3D move the needle? It's a feature too few people want to be of significance.

The 2013 Microsoft employee quote

Sony employees (3 different people) say in 2013

How does he know this before the UHD Blu-ray format was finalized? Because Microsoft planned to have UHD support and made sure the hardware could support UHD Blu-ray.

I'm less certain that so many plans made years ago hinge on UHD BD (look at Sony's disinterest in media features for the PS4, for instance), and I'm not as confident that the underpinnings of the format largely remained static multiple years before being finalized. Maybe it is; maybe it's not. Sony reportedly wanted the format out in 2014. If UHD BD was so close to being done in 2013, why not launch on Sony's timetable?

I can wildly speculate that Sony might be writing the UHD Blu-ray player application for the XB1

That is indeed wild speculation.

I'd like to table this and move on to features that are coming that will have some mandated and some speculated depending on the platform owner.

Since such a thread would encompass both platforms and move outside the scope of just "will it / won't it", shouldn't that be addressed in a new thread? Do you not think any of the things I've said in my last couple of posts are worth discussing or refuting?

 

[jeff_rigby]

Can you provide quotes from, say, the past 6-9 months accordingly? Otherwise, saying "there are plans" is supposition.

I'm not sure about that. 4K 3D is absolutely nowhere on the horizon from a content standpoint, and television manufacturers have lost all enthusiasm for 3D. Fewer and fewer models are launching with 3D. If there's near-total consumer apathy for 3D at home, why would 4K 3D move the needle? It's a feature too few people want to be of significance.

I'm less certain that so many plans made years ago hinge on UHD BD (look at Sony's disinterest in media features for the PS4, for instance), and I'm not as confident that the underpinnings of the format remains largely unchanged multiple years before being finalized. Maybe it is; maybe it's not. Sony reportedly wanted the format out in 2014. If UHD BD was so close to being done in 2013, why not launch on Sony's timetable?

That is indeed wild speculation.

Since such a thread would encompass both platforms and move outside the scope of just "will it / won't it", shouldn't that be addressed in a new thread?

You missed my edits. HEVC multipath with depth will also be used for browser VR. Edit: and 720P game streaming to the VR glasses and 3D TVs. Multi-view plus depth can be more easily used to support different 3D schemes than side by side frames. I mentioned that VR and UHD blu-ray are tied together, you can start to see this in the standards that UHD blu-ray is driving will also be used by VR and 4K TV and the vision hardware for the Digital bridge can be used to pre-process for VR goggles as well as process DEPTH and headtracking for VR. 3D skype will use HEVC plus depth.


All your misgiving are essentially; why three years between the 2013 announcement Nov 2013 till Oct 2016 (if it's going to be released then, which seems likely from Sony UHD blu-ray player talk.) ? 1) The UHD blu-ray standard was released only months ago and 2) the HTML5 <video> EME MSE standard and HEVC multi-view plus depth are not ready. Why is there a temporary DLNA APP? The Southbridge TEE routines can not be written piecemeal. Also getting everyone to accept a common standard is like herding cats.

Think about the wild speculation; who is creating the UHD blu-ray specs (Sony and others), Who is creating the DRM for streaming 4K and why is it accepted as the standard in the leaked Sony UHD blu-ray digital bridge proposals = Microsoft. Why is there no UHD blu-ray licence for Microsoft when it has the strongest 2013 support for being a UHD player

 

[Adam Tyner]

All your misgiving are essentially

My misgivings are based on the fact that something someone said three years ago isn't necessarily indicative of what plans are now. There aren't any rumors about the PS4 or Xbox One having UHD BD support anytime soon. Neither camp has affirmed support in several years; as you know, the only recent quote from anyone in a position of authority from Sony or Microsoft denies it.

None of this is to say that these consoles won't or can't support UHD BD. I just can't support saying that there will be support until there's a credible rumor or direct statement to that effect. Plenty of things are technically possible that never come to fruition.

 

[mhayze]

Let me ask a simpler question jeff: Just because it could be done (technically, as far as you know), why do you assume it will be done?

By your own assertion, some of the changes are a major effort, and maybe Sony doesn't care to disrupt their s/w and firmware efforts for the PS4 with such a major engineering effort, that would clearly effect everything else on the system. Maybe they just don't think it's worth disrupting the system that generates the vast majority of their profits for a rapidly shrinking niche market like 4K Blu-ray. Maybe the engineering effort would cost them more than they anticipate making in lifetime sales for 4K UHD on this platform. Maybe they would rather just sell more new 4K PS4 models. So many, many reasons for this not to happen.

Spoiler

I still hope it does, for selfish reasons.

I think the best chance of this happening on PS4 is if Microsoft announced that all XBOnes support UHD, and that led to a surprising increase in the sales of XBO consoles, Sony might rethink this. Otherwise I'd take them at their word that they are not actively working on this in earnest.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Let me ask a simpler question jeff: Just because it could be done (technically, as far as you know), why do you assume it will be done?

By your own assertion, some of the changes are a major effort, and maybe Sony doesn't care to disrupt their s/w and firmware efforts for the PS4 with such a major engineering effort, that would clearly effect everything else on the system. Maybe they just don't think it's worth disrupting the system that generates the vast majority of their profits for a rapidly shrinking niche market like 4K Blu-ray. Maybe the engineering effort would cost them more than they anticipate making in lifetime sales for 4K UHD on this platform. Maybe they would rather just sell more new 4K PS4 models. So many, many reasons for this not to happen.

Spoiler

I still hope it does, for selfish reasons.

I think the best chance of this happening on PS4 is if Microsoft announced that all XBOnes support UHD, and that led to a surprising increase in the sales of XBO consoles, Sony might rethink this. Otherwise I'd take them at their word that they are not actively working on this in earnest.

All the 4K media delivery schemes will use the same software stack. To support UHD Blu-ray requires writing the BD+ and AACS software using the already existing 4K and C-ENC hooks on the already existing hardware. As a media hub that converts 4K to 1080P and upscales 1080P to 4K, the XB1 and PS4 can support a Digital bridge to the same or vice versa using the same routines.


A certified Vidipath platform follows these standards and the digital bridge converts from AACS DRM to Playready ND to stream The common low level API is C-ENC for both which is also used for HTML5 <video> EME MSE, 4K TV, 4K IPTV and the Downloadable security scheme for the Cable Card replacement.

Major effort is perhaps giving the wrong impression. They must follow standards that everyone has a say in. It's like herding cats not like it takes advanced technology to get the cats to move.

Why will they support UHD Blu-ray? After they pay the licence to the BDA ($60,000 or so) they have a free licence to use HEVC for blu-ray and non commercial use. Netflix would pay to use HEVC on the XB1 or PS4 and pay a fee to the platform owner to use the TEE that is required for 4K and will be required for 1080P. For Sony they make money when the Blu-ray disk is sold and for both, to own the living room and compete with ARM platforms that are cheaper and can stream UHD media, they need features that make them more valuable.

Amortized over 60 million consoles and the cost per console to support UHD Blu-ray is pennies. So you have a game console that is netting you millions a year and you can triple that by supporting media...do you do so? Media is more than movies.......<hint>

 

[jeff_rigby]

Rumored Sony VR release this Fall ties in with Sony UHD Blu-ray statements this holiday season to at the latest March 2017.

Fall release likely means a lower price if they are assuming Christmas season sales which generates higher volume. VR games are fancy 3D games and the fall back will be 3D TV support to increase software sales. A game developer can't survive on VR alone.

Microsoft's Skype is going to support 3D on the XB1 using HEVC multi-view plus depth. HEVC MV+D 1080P 3D will use 3/4 the bandwidth of frame packed 1080P and it's the native low level 3D for the XB1. Along with 3D VR is a whole host of other 3D features....using the same hardware to support VR. Same for Sony but 720P 3D cameras and 720P VR with additional hardware to calculate depth from two cameras. I hope they have at least the browser 3D and VR. We've been expecting browser 3D since the PS3 3D with firmware 3.5.

HEVC (MVD) will be used by streaming VR/AR and eventually a 3D UHD Blu-ray player then 4K antenna TV.

W3C on depth map use:

Depth cameras are increasingly being integrated into devices such as phones, tablets, and laptops. Depth cameras provide a depth map, which conveys the distance information between points on an object's surface and the camera. With depth information, web content and applications can be enhanced by, for example, the use of hand gestures as an input mechanism, or by creating 3D models of real-world objects that can interact and integrate with the web platform. Concrete applications of this technology include more immersive gaming experiences, more accessible 3D video conferences, and augmented reality, to name a few.

SVG Extensions for 3D displays This references Multi-view plus depth hardware that will be found in future 3D TV.


Sony Patents 3D Head-Tracking Glasses . These are regular glasses with LEDs added for head tracking.

 

[Ilmyr]

So does the latest revision of Playstation 4 definately support HDR (High Dynamic Range) output via HDMI 2.0a?

I'm thinking about buying a PS4 now and since i already own a 4K TV (with 10bit panel), it would be nice if the PS4 will be my future bluray player, that supports all those new features.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Maybe

 

[Vashetti]

So does the latest revision of Playstation 4 definately support HDR (High Dynamic Range) output via HDMI 2.0a?

I'm thinking about buying a PS4 now and since i already own a 4K TV (with 10bit panel), it would be nice if the PS4 will be my future bluray player, that supports all those new features.

No, no version of the PS4 does. The HDMI output is HDMI 1.4

 

[jeff_rigby]

So does the latest revision of Playstation 4 definately support HDR (High Dynamic Range) output via HDMI 2.0a?

I'm thinking about buying a PS4 now and since i already own a 4K TV (with 10bit panel), it would be nice if the PS4 will be my future bluray player, that supports all those new features.

Not now but the hardware can support UHD Blu-ray and the HDMI 2.0a is just a HDMI 2 port with the manufacturer allowing metadata in the stream; I.E. the same hardware...no reason the PS4 Southbridge can't support that since Netflix will be doing the same as will 4k Antenna TV.

No, no version of the PS4 does. The HDMI output is HDMI 1.4

That is technically correct. The hardware is configured to respond as a HDMI 1.4 by default but can support HDMI 2 with a firmware update when connected to a HDMI 2 receiver. HDCP takes place in Southbridge and the Panasonic custom HDMI chip supports up to 120 FPS to support VR which NO HDMI 1.4 chip can support.

The big question is when are the PS4 and XB1 going to get the Firmware updates to support 4K media?

 

[nillah]

I wouldn't underestimate the Quad to play ANYTHING at this point, gimmie a 4K 8K blue ray all day

 

[LordofPwn]

i would have figured that if the PS4 would get support for UHD Blu-rays Sony would have said at CES this year that PS4s will support UHD Blu-Rays. you have Samsung releasing a player for $400 next month right? if they declared "hey so that PS4 you have in your living room, yeah that will work with these new discs, no need to buy that samsung device, and it doesn't even play games" instead you have the bluray association saying current drives won't support these new discs and sony saying they'll launch a player in 2017.

My guess is that the custom HDMI chip in the PS4 is purely there to support PSVR because they knew they would need to offer up HD at faster frame rates.

Now I'm not saying that the PS4 couldnt support UHD blu-rays if you gave it a huge firmware update, i'm saying all signs are pointing towards Sony not doing that. I'll be interested at what's coming in this new firmware update in march but i wouldn't hold my breath either.

Also to my knowledge Sony hasn't announced at CES that the PS4 will even get 4K media support, or at least included it in their 4K talks which feels odd.

 

[jeff_rigby]

At the risk of confusing everyone I found more information.

In the Mt. Fuji Commands for Multimedia Devices Version 9. Table 6 page 83 lists the disk FORMAT for V 1.4 and V 2 disks. V2 disk format (66 and 100 GB) is not compatible with version 1.4 (25 and 50GB), you can't have the two formats on the same disk (Page 84 BD-ROM).

Page 1106 has the changes from Mt. Fuji 8 to 9 which include the changes needed to support AACS 2 and BD-ROM Version 2 format disks. Very few and they look to be all firmware. These changes are in the 2015 Fuji 9 paper and couldn't be in 2013 BD-ROM drives so the drives need a firmware update to support Version 2 format disks and/or AACS 2. The PS3 BD-ROM drives got an update to support BD+ sometime after 2007 so it's not unprecedented.

The BDA whitepaper page 32 lists the difference between V1.4 and V2 disk formats and it's the mark length which then requires a change in how reliability is determined. This is the 2010 Panasonic-Sony tweak that Sony said was firmware update-able.

The V2 format was in the 2010 Sony patent mentioned by NAME as V2 that mentioned the Panasonic-Sony tweek that allowed the extra compression which Sony said just required a Firmware update and the same patent mentioned that drives in 2010 could read the three layers. The 2010 BD-R whitepaper updated the specs so that a drive could reliably read three layers with the tweek.

Modern Blu-ray drives can support 4K blu-ray There is a 2010 patent from Sony which confirms modern blu-ray drives can support 4k blu-ray. The patent discusses a modification to either the coming 4 layer BDXL in the 2010 blu-ray whitepaper or 3 layer 4K blu-ray disks to make them unreadable on older blu-ray drives by inverting the track information. A software change to later higher spec standard blu-ray drives makes them able to read this inverted track information.

So for the PC, a modern drive should support this if the manufacturer will update the firmware. One of the interesting features of AACS is that the drive encrypts media and the Player decrypts with a preset key paired at the factory. In the PS3 for instance this means you can't replace the Blu-ray drive, it must be done by Sony or someone who has the software tools to put it in service mode and pair the drive with the PS3. AACS2 optionally uses a cloud server to do this.

The UHD player (Not drive) is required to support the following DRM:

Ultra HD AACS version one for legacy and Version 2
AACS on-line needed for Version 2
On line certificate verification (White list certificate)
Ultra HD BD-ROM Mark part of BD+ 2007 format/DRM that can only be made on a BD-ROM in the factory. **This is the only drive requirement I can find and PS3 drives support this**
Ultra HD BD+ stricter DRM BD+ virtual machine running in the TEE

So a BD-ROM V.4 PC drive manufacturer must purchase a License, update the firmware and supply servers to support the required AACS2 and White list. I suspect Embedded players (XB1 and PS4 as well as other dedicated UHD Players) don't need this AACS 2 server but the entire Player (Software and Hardware) still needs the on-line certificate. PC Application software needs to pair with AACS 2 also.


AACS is also Bus encryption from Drive to TEE as the USB drive used as the bus can be intercepted. AACS 2 adds an optional requirement for a server to pair the drive and TEE. An on-line certificate rather than on disk and BD-ROM mark containing volume ID which is also used for encryption has also been used since 2007 with BD+. This is in the Mt Fuji ver 9 paper and in BDA licence sites.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Deleted as this is in error due to the author I cite. Edit: "He has now edited his pointing out that he had gotten the wrong disk, as in, it was a normal Blu-ray, not UHD." He didn't check to see if the disk worked before he updated the Firmware and after AnyDVD gives the above errors. Were those errors there before? It's possible that the drive is now updated and can read version 2 disks but AnyDVD player can't handle the new drive firmware reporting.

 

[weekev]

From the Blu-ray forum:

So that settles it, BLu-ray drives can be firmware updated to read Version 2 format disks which are what UHD blu-ray will be using. The XB1 and PS4 drives can be firmware updates and additionally don't need the AACS 2 server to pair the drive and Console logical unit as they are embedded drives in an embedded hardware platform. PCs need to be able tpo pair when a user installs a drive in a PC. The PS3 has this pairing and only the factory could install a new blu-ray drive.

So in Layman's terms PS4 and XB1 will be able to support 4k blurays should Sony/MS feel the need to push through a firmware update to make it possible?

 

[Jebusman]

From the Blu-ray forum:

So that settles it, BLu-ray drives can be firmware updated to read Version 2 format disks which are what UHD blu-ray will be using. The XB1 and PS4 drives can be firmware updates and additionally don't need the AACS 2 server to pair the drive and Console logical unit as they are embedded drives in an embedded hardware platform. PCs need to be able tpo pair when a user installs a drive in a PC. The PS3 has this pairing and only the factory could install a new blu-ray drive.

Read again buddy:

Edit:

This has now proven to be wrong. I was also able to read the disc on my old LG r/w - and that made me suspect. Updated my hosts for Anydvd to work, and whalla, I am burning the movie. So I was sent the wrong disc of the 4K movie set. (it was a rental). I do not have a 4K version of the movie - no way even though it's marked as such.

Source: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/150-b...c-bdxl-drive-test-request-8.html#post41909265

He wasn't using a 4K disc and didn't notice at first, apparently due to it being mislabled.

How quick you're willing to jump on any evidence, no matter how suspect, to prove yourself right is honestly tiring at this point.

Edit: You updated your post to quote the non-edited version of his statement, rather than the revised one where he admits he made a mistake and that he wasn't actually using a 4K disc.

You are better than this Jeff. Don't lie just to try and prove yourself right.

 

[Paganmoon]

From the Blu-ray forum:

So that settles it, BLu-ray drives can be firmware updated to read Version 2 format disks which are what UHD blu-ray will be using. The XB1 and PS4 drives can be firmware updates and additionally don't need the AACS 2 server to pair the drive and Console logical unit as they are embedded drives in an embedded hardware platform. PCs need to be able tpo pair when a user installs a drive in a PC. The PS3 has this pairing and only the factory could install a new blu-ray drive.

From the AVSforum:

Sorry, it's a no go as I didn't get a 4K title to actually test with.

That's the guy who posted that the crossflashing worked.

Edit: yeah, I agree with Jebusman, not the first time you've jumped to conclusions. I recall you basing parts of your assumption that Microsoft had a VR headset in the works on some aprils fools jokes about Project Neo. You need to source your info better, and not go on random forumposts (and check the dates of news you source).

 

[jeff_rigby]

Read again buddy:



Source: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/150-b...c-bdxl-drive-test-request-8.html#post41909265

He wasn't using a 4K disc and didn't notice at first, apparently due to it being mislabled.

How quick you're willing to jump on any evidence, no matter how suspect, to prove yourself right is honestly tiring at this point.

Edit: You updated your post to quote the non-edited version of his statement, rather than the revised one where he admits he made a mistake and that he wasn't actually using a 4K disc.

You are better than this Jeff. Don't lie just to try and prove yourself right.

Your right and I was copying from the UHD Blu-ray forum then went to the source found the issue, edited my post in the Blu-ray forum and came back here and edited my post.

In any case thanks for following the links I provide and posting to correct me, although that would have happened in any case as I do follow through and double check.

Yes I jumped on what I thought was evidence that is simple enough for readers here to understand as reading the BDA whitepaper and the Mt Fuji version 9 drive paper is beyond most. Again the Mt Fuji paper is for drive manufacturers and Player software developers. For Drive manufacturers it's how they develop the firmware for Drives And I cited the page where changes are listed from ver 8 to ver 9 to support V2 format disks and UHD Blu-ray.

The BDA whitepaper page 32 lists the difference between V1.4 and V2 disk formats and it's the mark length which then requires a change in how reliability is determined. This is the 2010 Panasonic-Sony tweak that Sony said was firmware update-able. Blu-ray drives in 2010 could read 4 layers but maybe not reliably; the BD-R 2010 whitepaper addressed this issue.

AACS is also Bus encryption from Drive to TEE as the USB drive used as the bus can be intercepted. AACS 2 adds an optional requirement for a server to pair the drive and TEE. An on-line certificate rather than on disk and BD-ROM mark containing volume ID which is also used for encryption has also been used since 2007 with BD+. This is in the Mt Fuji ver 9 paper and in BDA licence sites.

 

[hesido]

The title still needs to be changed. Stating again, it creates a cached version of what may be false information as fact, in google in related searches.

I won't be missed in this thread but this is my final post

 

[mrklaw]

The title still needs to be changed. Stating again, it creates a cached version of what may be false information as fact, in google in related searches.

I won't be missed in this thread but this is my final post

really? Why?

 

[Jebusman]

Your right and I was copying from the UHD Blu-ray forum then went to the source found the issue, edited my post in the Blu-ray forum and came back here and edited my post.

In any case thanks for following the links I provide and posting to correct me, although that would have happened in any case as I do follow through and double check.

Look, don't get me wrong, I'm 100% down with the work you try to put in to connect the dots and try to prove this is possible. I'm going to follow through every link and read everything to see it myself, because I would personally be down with the PS4 supporting it.

I just think you're too quick to jump on any evidence that supports your position. You've already determined that 4K BL on PS4 is a fact, and you're searching for anything that can help validate that. It's blinding you to anything that may contradict it, and even when your source turns out to be wrong, you're still trying to hedge your bets on it being true by making undisputable, yet also unverifyable statements.

This isn't how you should be doing this kind of research. It's conspiracy theory level stuff.

 

[PodcastFips]

This thread still exists in it's original form?

 

[jeff_rigby]

Look, don't get me wrong, I'm 100% down with the work you try to put in to connect the dots and try to prove this is possible. I'm going to follow through every link and read everything to see it myself, because I would personally be down with the PS4 supporting it.

I just think you're too quick to jump on any evidence that supports your position. You've already determined that 4K BL on PS4 is a fact, and you're searching for anything that can help validate that. It's blinding you to anything that may contradict it, and even when your source turns out to be wrong, you're still trying to hedge your bets on it being true by making undisputable, yet also unverifyable statements.

This isn't how you should be doing this kind of research. It's conspiracy theory level stuff.

Yes, read the posts and follow the links. I'd like an honest evaluation by someone who actually reads. The statements I am making are supported by cites, It is possible to verify but only with a deep technical knowledge and lots of reading. I'm searching for easier to understand verification so that the average reader can follow.

FYI The world wide 4K TV that the US calls ATSC 3 has the main screen as a web page using the C-ENC format for HTML5 <video>MSE EME delivery (page 6 and 18). ATSC 2 is just using a web page for XTV which requires an overlay. Both ATSC 2 and 3 have DRM beyond the copy-no copy flag which is a first for broadcast TV. Commercial launch for ATSC 3 2016 page 34.

UHD Blu-ray and digital bridge proposed by Sony-Panasonic-Fox uses the same standards as UHD TV and gets the industry ready for 4K TV or Vice Versa.

Several Korean broadcasters announced this week that they will begin transmitting ATSC 3.0 OTA broadcasts starting in February 2017. The news comes after the two broadcast networks, SBS and MBC&#8212;in conjunction with LG Electronics, ETRI and several equipment vendors&#8212;announced the first successful live end-to-end ATSC 3.0 broadcast in the country, and represents perhaps the best confirmation yet that the ATSC 3.0 next generation broadcast standard is on schedule to be completed within the next 12 months.

Korea wants to broadcast the Olympics in 4K Feb 2018.

The FCC has sold so much TV bandwidth that it's going to be difficult to have both the old standard and new standard supporting the same channels at the same time. As a result of this and Cell phones being able to reliably and robustly receive TV in a moving car, a PUSH for ATSC 3 and a quicker than normal phasing out of the older incompatible standards will happen (this in multiple papers). This may be alleviated with STBs like the PS4 and XB1 connected to Network tuners able to downscale 4K and receive multiple 1080P channels in a HEVC container. This downscaling and HEVC multi-view codec which is also required for 3D is part of the UHD Digital bridge and mentioned in Playready ND papers. The UHD TV signal is already IPTV with the C-ENC format which is used by Playready and HTML5 <video> MSE EME.

Sinclair Envisions ATSC 3.0 Royalty Windfall
If the proposed next-gen TV transmission standard is adopted, Sinclair Broadcast Group stands to profit from its contribution of intellectual property, the company's execs say. "You should assume that anybody who is going to watch television, whether it is on virtual reality devices, cars, machines, phones, pads, TV sets is going to [be using] our technology," said CEO David Smith.

3D is coming to 4k TV (Virtual Reality devices), Phones, Pads, cars...it's already in the planning stages as seen in the underlying transport mechanism and W3C extensions.

With ATSC 3.0, you connect your new ~$250 household gateway/router that probably includes some storage and DVR features to that OTA antenna. Now every IP device in your home&#8217;s LAN coverage area has access to everything OTA and Internet (including any &#8220;walled garden&#8221; of content your ISP might supply)

There is more of a chance that the FCC will move to expedite the transition to ATSC 3.0 as a way to ease the impact of the present-day spectrum reallocation process and the conversion of some UHF TV channels to wireless use.

 

[dodgykebaab]

Polygon and many, many, many other sites confirmed the PS4 can play 4k Bluray back in 2013.

Source: http://www.polygon.com/2013/2/21/4013432/playstation-4-4k-output-games

Why are we still having this conversation?

 

[TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared]

Alright so, before I splash some cash on Ultra HD discs, my PS4 will play them, and they will work on my 4K tv?

 

[Paganmoon]

Polygon and many, many, many other sites confirmed the PS4 can play 4k Bluray back in 2013.

Source: http://www.polygon.com/2013/2/21/4013432/playstation-4-4k-output-games

Why are we still having this conversation?

And SCE VP has stated that the current BD-player in the PS4's -cannot- read 3 layer BD-discs. Why are we still entertaining the idea of the PS4 ever playing UHD Blu-rays?

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/10/2...ties-of-an-enhanced-ps4-for-ultra-hd-blu-ray/

Alright so, before I splash some cash on Ultra HD discs, my PS4 will play them, and they will work on my 4K tv?

No your PS4 will not play UHD discs.