GeordieMark
Member
You wouldn't be who you are today if you'd be around back then. Your life experiences would have made you a very different person, so there's no saying what you would have done. Its naive to think otherwise.
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Oskar Groening, a book keeper at Auschwitz, age 96 declared fit for prison
- Thread starter Trojita
- Start date
You wouldn't be who you are today if you'd be around back then. Your life experiences would have made you a very different person, so there's no saying what you would have done. Its naive to think otherwise.
excelsiorlef
Member
Sending him to jail isn't a wrong though?
excelsiorlef
Member
The Spoony Hou
Member
I see no point in this. There's no need for rehabilitation, as he's obviously more useful to society by fighting holocaust deniers.
He has already learned from his mistakes, it's time he helps us learn from them too.
He has already learned from his mistakes, it's time he helps us learn from them too.
S
Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
This man deserves to die in jail. He will be cared for humanely as is proper in a civilised society, his health will be attended to and he will not be left to rot or barbarically executed, but he does not deserve to die a free man.
Justice is not always about rehabilitation, nor should it be.
Justice is not always about rehabilitation, nor should it be.
GeordieMark
Member
What does that have to do with anything in that post?
gutter_trash
Banned
but doesn't his time as Prisoner of War and hard labour count as a sentence?
how do you equate that sentence in combination with today's?
how do you equate that sentence in combination with today's?
S
Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
In your rush to lecture her, you misunderstood what Sibylus meant when she said "I would be killed for who I am".
rsnl
Neo Member
Being a POW is not a sentence
S
Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
And there was no "hard labour".
This is insanely heinous towards the victims.
It is understandable that you think being accessory to murder in 300 000 cases should not be punished.
excelsiorlef
Member
Sibylus is part of the LGBT community... what did Nazis do to them again?
excelsiorlef
Member
Besides everything already said above it's apso a no because it wasn't even for his actions in Auschwitz because he lied about it when the British captured him so the British never knew of his role in the Holocaust
Tetsujin_MK
Member
Well, according to Wikipedia...
Doesn't sound very punishing to me.
I don't get why people say "what's the point in this". The point is that being a participant in genocide has no expiration date. Even if at this point there isn't much of a practical purpose it's about the principle of the matter.
Could it be possible that they might sentence him to jail but delay putting him into one so that he would die of age before? Otherwise I can imagine that this is a mighty hassle for the prison to take care of a 96 year old.
That way they send the clear message that he deserves to be convicted due to his past actions, which is right in my eyes but allows him to go after holocaust deniers. Then again, on the other hand there are maybe ways to go against them even when in jail.
That way they send the clear message that he deserves to be convicted due to his past actions, which is right in my eyes but allows him to go after holocaust deniers. Then again, on the other hand there are maybe ways to go against them even when in jail.
guggnichso
Banned
Of course he should go to prison, why is that even a discussion?
"He's old" or "he changed his mind" doesn't bring a single one of those millions of jews, gay people, sinti and roma or political opponents back to life that he helped kill.
Yes, rehabilitation is the central point in the german law system, but look, if he was a cop that killed a black guy or some KKK fucker who helped organize a lynching, you guys would be all over this.
He will go to a german prison, not a U.S. one. He will be treated respectfully as a human being in there, not boxed away and treated like cattle like in a U.S. one. But he deserves his sentence. He helped perpetrating one of the most atrocious mass murders in the history of the human race. He has to atone for that.
"He's old" or "he changed his mind" doesn't bring a single one of those millions of jews, gay people, sinti and roma or political opponents back to life that he helped kill.
Yes, rehabilitation is the central point in the german law system, but look, if he was a cop that killed a black guy or some KKK fucker who helped organize a lynching, you guys would be all over this.
He will go to a german prison, not a U.S. one. He will be treated respectfully as a human being in there, not boxed away and treated like cattle like in a U.S. one. But he deserves his sentence. He helped perpetrating one of the most atrocious mass murders in the history of the human race. He has to atone for that.
S
Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
I would also be very hesitant before possibly painting this man as an activist of some kind, who has fought any good fight.
He doesn't consider himself as a perpetrator or as directly guilty of the crime, and has said as much.
He doesn't consider himself as a perpetrator or as directly guilty of the crime, and has said as much.
I'm torn on the issue. I absolutely think he should die in jail. On the other hand his work against holocaust denial is incredibly vital, especially now with the rise of right wing ideologies, and I dread to think what'll happen once the last of that generation dies off and holocaust denial goes unchallenged and conspiracy nuts and assholes have a field day.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
The article says he's willing to accept the court verdict, whatever it is. So yes, he seems to accept it.
And you weren't a direct participant and you're almost 100 years old and close to death? No, not forgiven, but yes, they are mitigating factors. Remove any one of these and I bet it wouldn't be such a debate.
Groening hasn't committed any crimes (that we know of) since WW2, Cosby has been an unrepentant rapist for most of his life, and he's old but still has potentially many years left. I don't think they are equivalent at all. If Cosby had drugged and raped women for a brief period of his youth, never got caught, then much later in life admitted to it and actively campaigned against sexual assault, a lot people would probably feel different about the whole thing.
What's his stance on the matter? Following orders?
Good points. I still find it courageous for someone to speak up for the greater good while knowing it directly incriminates themselves. I wonder how he feels about the prospect of facing jail time.
Tetsujin_MK
Member
So first of all, holocaust denial is literally illegal in Germany so it will certainly not go unchallenged. Holocaust deniers also don't listen to actual ex-Nazis or survivors any more than they listen to anyone else so it doesn't really matter. They literally congregated at his trial to claim he was innocent because it didn't happen.
Secondly, I get the feeling a lot of people here think he was some kind of activist who made it his life's mission to go against holocaust deniers or something.
I don't think it would be comparable even then. Cosby didn't grow up in a society that taught him women were sub-human, and that drugging and raping them was for the benefit of society. The main difference would still be that Cosby committed crimes on his own volition.
So did Gröning
S
Steve.1981
Unconfirmed Member
Not even that. He admits that, at the time, he believed in what was happening.
He agreed to be interviewed for a BBC documentary titled 'Auschwitz: The Nazis and The Final Solution'. I would highly recommend watching or at least reading up on it. His words will horrify you.
Even at his trial he could only find it within himself to "share morally in the guilt". The man has earned no kind of redemption, through words or deeds.
excelsiorlef
Member
Yep.
excelsiorlef
Member
sankt-Antonio
:^)--?-<
Mid 20s is not a kid (when he committed his crimes), the time the Nazi needed to gain power is of no interest here.
And what crime did he commit that was a crime at the time he committed it?
Do you understand the concept of nulla poena sine lege?
Thanks. I've heard of its existence but haven't watched it yet. I'll seek it out.
Perhaps commenting before watching is a little premature, but I do believe that it is possible to be indoctrinated to the extent that you believe heinous deeds to be just. I read journals by Japanese fighter pilots stationed in Manchuria. They started off feeling sick to their stomach for shooting at people. Over time, they learned to resent the enemy and took pleasure in killing.
I'm definitely not saying that Göring wasn't responsible, but I also think that under extreme circumstances, more people may be willing to do evil than they may like to think.
I'll be back after watching the documentary.
You know Auschwitz was pretty late in the game. He came of age in the 30's, a lot of indoctrination and such happened during that time. Children were indoctrinated very effectively.
excelsiorlef
Member
Or an active participant legal adult who willingly joined the SS and never objected to the genocide, only wishing it was neater
Chairmanchuck
Member
Of course he needs to go to jail.
The criminal acts he did never lapse, so why shouldnt he be in jail just because he is old?
So if I decide to murder someone in the 70s, then they finally found out it was me in 2017, I shouldnt be punished because im 80/90/100? That goes totally against the german law system...
The criminal acts he did never lapse, so why shouldnt he be in jail just because he is old?
So if I decide to murder someone in the 70s, then they finally found out it was me in 2017, I shouldnt be punished because im 80/90/100? That goes totally against the german law system...
sankt-Antonio
:^)--?-<
He was 16 when the NSDAP came to power, so a young adult - old enough back then to go to war. So no, he was never a kid that was brainwashed - we was participating in it willingly.
Murder was a crime back than, yes. As was accessory to murder. Nulla poena sine lege also doesn't apply to murder and accessory to it, yes.
He was 12.
XOMTOR
Member
What about the locomotive engineer that delivered the passengers to the camp? Was he an accessory? Or the mechanic that worked on the train? Is he responsible? How about the camp chefs that cooked meals for the guards? Are they complicit? Surely they all could have simply refused and walked away.
What about the civilians who voted for the Nazi party? They were all supporters and cogs in the Nazi hate machine. Where do we draw the line? When do we stop calling it justice and admit that perhaps this is just another witch-hunt with a different name?
gutter_trash
Banned
by today's standards, he would be labeled as a "Child Solder"
Look at the Omar Khadr case in Guantanamo and Canada .
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Don't be deliberately obtuse.
He was a nazi who volunteered himself to the SS and then took part in stealing and cataloguing the belongings of those victims being gassed and burned around him.
But he didn't commit murder. So it all hinges on whether him simply having been in Auschwitz (which was involuntary, and while he may not have objected to the genocide on principle, he didn't want to be there either but couldn't get away until 1944) made him an accessory in the legal sense. Did his sorting and cataloging the property of the victims aid the killing process? How so? As it now stands, he is the only person of over 7,000 former SS and auxiliary personnel in Auschwitz to ever be sentenced for being an accessory, without any direct involvement in the killing.
Was the baker who delivered bread to the camp an accessory, too?
I know you are acting stupid on purpose, but lets pretend these are genuine questions.
People who worked in a Konzentrationslager were murderers or accessory to murder. Get over it.
And no, this is not another case of witch hunt of the german justice system. I do find it midly amusing however that a Nazi being convicted for accessory to murder in 300 000 cases triggers you so deeply.
Gröning was 21 when he worked in Auschwitz. Khadr 15.
excelsiorlef
Member
Not when he joined the SS
My god. You are obsessed with absolving him of all responsibility
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Welp
excelsiorlef
Member
He was 19 when he enlisted
XOMTOR
Member
Can you please avoid making this personal? It's a debate that has no clear answer. Obviously you feel that justice should always be served, I believe that forgiveness is possible.
Snarky(HEART)
Banned
Or another way you could say it is that person believes people who commit genocide should be punished for it and you believe that people who commit genocide don't have to get punished with just enough good behavior
Yeah, I think we are done.
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