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Oskar Groening, a book keeper at Auschwitz, age 96 declared fit for prison

Dmax3901

Member
He was 12 when the Nazis came to power. Changes the conversation considerably. No one can stand here and say, with complete confidence, they'd be different from him. How much can you blame someone for being raised to believe terrible things, and then continuing on as a young adult?

It doesn't absolve him from his crimes, but we aren't talking about normal circumstances. This is clearly someone who, as an adult, changed his mind, and admitted wrong. It's 70 years later now. It's not yesterday. Maybe if he was older than 12, and had complete agency over his actions, we could talk about this differently. Until then, I think, it's not worth punishing him, again, after all these years.

This does nothing good, and no one can give a concrete reason as to why it would be good, without some vague use of the word "justice" or "lesson." How about something tangible? In every way, this sounds like, "We want to punish someone to make us feel better" rather than to actually accomplish anything. I don't think that is a good reason to lock someone up. That's a very serious thing to do. Prison shouldn't be the go to answer for anything ideological. Stripping others of their natural rights shouldn't come as easy as, "it will make everyone feel better."

I mean you said it yourself, it doesn't absolve him of his crimes. Holocaust deniers will exist and continue to spout their bullshit with or without a few letters or phone calls from Herr Groning.

Also I vehemently reject the "he was young, any one of us could've ended up in the same situation". No. He willingly joined the SS and approved of the Final Solution. If he was on record all these years since the war saying he had no idea what was happening in the camps or that when he found out he wanted nothing to do with the Nazis ever again (and there was proof of this), then it would be a different story.

He's been honest after the war, which is one good thing you can say about him.
 

Oersted

Member
Isn't the SS sort of different? If I am not mistaken you have to believe and be dedicated to the ideology of Nazism to be part of the SS.

He joined freely and out of conviction, yes.

I am very conflicted with this ruling. Not because of his age, but because he seemed to be very active in combating Holocaust denial and detailing what he and the SS did. I am not sure we can call it repenting and rehabilitation, but its hard to want to lock up a guy that seemed to acknowledge the wrong he did.

It lowered his sentence, yes.
 
Isn't the SS sort of different? If I am not mistaken you have to believe and be dedicated to the ideology of Nazism to be part of the SS.

In 1943-44, the SS began conscripting in the same manner as the rest of the armed forces. Prior to this it was generally, but not exclusively voluntary. Some SS formations were basically press-ganged from occupied countries, especially later in the war. People who initially joined the WM voluntarily or otherwise could also find themselves folded into an SS formation as critical manpower shortages meant it made more sense to dissolve some divisions in order to have others exist at closer to full-strength.

Ideological fanaticism was common throughout the entire armed forces, and it is definitely not the case that the SS were "the real Nazis" while the WM were "just Germans". All soldiers regardless of branch were required to pledge an oath of loyalty to Adolf Hitler, and there was never any requirement that the SS volunteers be "the true believers" so to speak. Hitler and the regime was highly popular when the war was going well.
 

gabbo

Member
The message that needs to be sent is this: No Matter what you do in life after, participating in an actual genocide cannot be forgiven even if you're 96 and feel bad about it
While agree with this idea, and feel this guy should certainly receive punishment of some kind, it's a message that is rarely rarely applied universally in a post-WW2 world. Nazi's are just easier to hate than others who have committed genocide since and easier to point to.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
In 1943-44, the SS began conscripting in the same manner as the rest of the armed forces. Prior to this it was generally, but not exclusively voluntary. Some SS formations were basically press-ganged from occupied countries, especially later in the war. People who initially joined the WM voluntarily or otherwise could also find themselves folded into an SS formation as critical manpower shortages meant it made more sense to dissolve some divisions in order to have others exist at closer to full-strength.

Ideological fanaticism was common throughout the entire armed forces, and it is definitely not the case that the SS were "the real Nazis" while the WM were "just Germans". All soldiers regardless of branch were required to pledge an oath of loyalty to Adolf Hitler, and there was never any requirement that the SS volunteers be "the true believers" so to speak. Hitler and the regime was highly popular when the war was going well.

Ah, thanks for the information there. I was of the ignorant thought that SS were "the real Nazis", but there were some bad WM, but not as a whole as bad. If that makes sense. I learned something today.


He joined freely and out of conviction, yes.



It lowered his sentence, yes.

Would explain the low sentence, though he was only convicted of accessory to murder. I guess he should be happy with that, as more than 1 person was murdered in that genocide.
 

Sibylus

Banned
I'm satisfied that he denounced holocaust denial, and I'm satisfied he's going to prison. No statute of limitations for genocide.
 

Oersted

Member
While agree with this idea, and feel this guy should certainly receive punishment of some kind, it's a message that is rarely rarely applied universally in a post-WW2 world. Nazi's are just easier to hate than others who have committed genocide since and easier to point to.

You should change your approach to life and justice.

Ah, thanks for the information there. I was of the ignorant thought that SS were "the real Nazis", but there were some bad WM, but not as a whole as bad. If that makes sense. I learned something today.




Would explain the low sentence, though he was only convicted of accessory to murder. I guess he should be happy with that, as more than 1 person was murdered in that genocide.

Yes, he was never accused of murder.

You can be jailed for up to 15 years for accessory to murder. Happened in a 911 case.
 
He. Was. Never. Punished. For. His. Crimes.

In fact, to hear this old cunt tell it, he never "technically" did anything wrong since he wasn't giving orders or pulling triggers/opening valves. Fuck him. He deserves worse.

He was a POW for some time, and the German people went through hell after WWII. Germany wouldn't be what it is today if they were just let off easy. They weren't. Like I said, society had its chance to punish, specifically, him, right after the war. They didn't. It's pointless to bring something to him now, when he's gonna fall over any moment. They are trying to right that wrong after so many years, when everything has changed, and the impact doesn't exist. Like I said, nothing will come of this, that's good. Only misplaced "justice."

Jewish gaffers would be different from him

they'd be in a ditch on top of their parents

This is very loaded. Yes the Holocaust was one of the worst things in history. Never gave the impression or even a hint that I thought otherwise. I get that this is insinuating I'm not thinking about the impact it had on those involved. That I'm not thinking about the people who were hurt or killed. That's simply not the case. Yes, their lives and hardships are relevant to this case, but I still have some serious misgivings.

Why pass this law, now of all times? Why not when there was millions of ex-Nazis alive, and not just a few? At that point, maybe it would have been justice. Now it's easy to arrest people because there is so few. Instead of admitting that there was a much larger problem with Nazi Germany than individual people, we can now pick at them, and pretend it was. Now that there is few left, it's feasible, and we can feel better about ourselves. That part just feels very distasteful to me.

I think people are also taking all this anger and hatred about the Holocaust and Nazis, and placing it on this guy, as if it will do something. Sorry, but punishing an old guy who was swept into a propaganda machine as a child, isn't going to fix anything. What you have is an old man, 70 years removed from what he was. He's trying to do what he can by outing himself and speaking against Holocaust deniers. What's more damaging to their arguments, than someone who was alive at a camp, who admits to some responsibility?


I do admit, though, the situation isn't perfect. However, there is more to it than just Nazis and the Holocaust and this is my main point: You are getting nothing out of this. Absolutely nothing. There is no justice in locking up someone who is going to keel over at any moment, who is a different person. There should be a strong case for locking someone up. There should be a very strong, and practical reason for doing so. This seems to me, like people are punishing this guy, as if they think they can be some last hero of WWII, 70 years after. Like they can correct some wrong by doing it. You can't. Your just gonna add another wrong. Justice is righting something that is morally wrong, but it's impossible to do something right, when correcting it is, in itself, wrong.

Anyway, I feel like I'm repeating my other posts. Almost didn't reply and just sat on this for a long time, but decided to, in the end. This is my last reply, as I don't think there is much conversation to be had. I'm not the only one repeating myself. I just feel like there is something disrespectful about all of this. It's not about accomplishing something, it's about trying to partake in the past and give your own input, when the past, is in the past. Things have changed, and you can't make everything like it was. Things are more complicated, and partaking in this is destructive. I would like to note, if they instead made it mandatory for him to speak about what he did, and the terrors of the holocaust, I'd be perfectly fine with it. Prison is too much.
 

Starfield

Member
People who think this guy deserves death sentence or whatever really should watch the dpcumentary "The Evil" (german: Das Böse).

You'd likely wouldn't be better than him...probably worse.
 
Prisons should be used for those that are a present threat to society like rapists and murderers.

This guy isn't a threat to anyone. So make a creative punishment or jogg on.
 

Hex

Banned
Definitely a fucked up situation.
I am torn about some of the facts.
I will say that in America the judicial system makes deals with many more hands on monsters, but this is about an example being made.
Many in here will be quite happy to get their blood and flesh.
I would rather see him dealt for a house arrest and filmed videos and narratives about the realities that he has seen instead and the dangers of that life.
 

Sibylus

Banned
People who think this guy deserves death sentence or whatever really should watch the dpcumentary "The Evil" (german: Das Böse).

You'd likely wouldn't be better than him...probably worse.

Nope, I'd be killed for who I am. But hey, keep up the devil's advocacy for the nearest modern equivalent we have to the devil.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
How does he feel about going to jail? If his change was true repentance, do you think he accepts it as the cost of what he did?

It's fascinating. I tend to think he does belong in prison, and am very curious if he agrees.
 
Could have made him do something more productive for society with his remaining time, make him do community service or document the horrors he witnessed, speak out against neo-nazis, but whatever.
 

rsnl

Neo Member
So basically as long as you have a change of heart later and crusdade for your own victims, everything is forgiven?
 
Both of my grandparents lost their entire families to the Holocaust until they met one another.

It's not just an emotional response, but one I've thought logically about, but I really can't understand the people who think justice has a statute of limitations. It's not about vengeance or retribution, but about justice that says these kinds of crimes may never go unpunished. You don't willingly join the SS, partake in the mass industrial genocide of a people at the most notorious hell on earth, and then be excused.

Justice isn't about retribution or simply enacting processes that lead to rehabilitation. It's about determining what is and isn't okay through rulings imo. And trying to say that this man is too old and has expressed regret at his involvement does not make it okay in any way. And the justice system shouldn't send that message either.
 

Greddleok

Member
Both of my grandparents lost their entire families to the Holocaust until they met one another.

It's not just an emotional response, but one I've thought logically about, but I really can't understand the people who think justice has a statute of limitations. It's not about vengeance or retribution, but about justice that says these kinds of crimes may never go unpunished. You don't willingly join the SS, partake in the mass industrial genocide of a people at the most notorious hell on earth, and then be excused.

Justice isn't about retribution or simply enacting processes that lead to rehabilitation. It's about determining what is and isn't okay through rulings imo. And trying to say that this man is too old and has expressed regret at his involvement does not make it okay in any way. And the justice system shouldn't send that message either.

This is a pretty good post. I was on the leave him alone side, but I think you're right.
 
People who think this guy deserves death sentence or whatever really should watch the dpcumentary "The Evil" (german: Das Böse).

You'd likely wouldn't be better than him...probably worse.

Are you serious?

Are people serious?

I can't believe that even genocide gets the both sides treatment and even comes out as the better side, because you are worse if you start killing genocidal "humans".

What the fuck is wrong with all you people saying this man doesn't deserve jail time, death, excusing genocide. Fucking shameful posts around here.
 

zoukka

Member
Nope, I'd be killed for who I am.

I don't buy that. People with strong enough morals to die for them, especially when everyone around you (including your friends/family go along) are one in a billion. This is not some gang recruiting you, it's your whole birth nation and in the time when you just couldn't go online to educate yourself or get in contact with people around the world.

The crimes are horrible and the guilty should be punished, but get out of here with that holy man bullshit.

Both of my grandparents lost their entire families to the Holocaust until they met one another.

It's not just an emotional response, but one I've thought logically about, but I really can't understand the people who think justice has a statute of limitations. It's not about vengeance or retribution, but about justice that says these kinds of crimes may never go unpunished. You don't willingly join the SS, partake in the mass industrial genocide of a people at the most notorious hell on earth, and then be excused.

Justice isn't about retribution or simply enacting processes that lead to rehabilitation. It's about determining what is and isn't okay through rulings imo. And trying to say that this man is too old and has expressed regret at his involvement does not make it okay in any way. And the justice system shouldn't send that message either.

I am not even disagreeing with you, but voluntary ISIS recruits are indeed pardoned all around the world as we speak unless they have personally killed someone.

And you are partial, you cannot be objective about this and it's fine. I'm the same with a certain type of crime that happened to a loved one, I can never be objective when I think about the justice system and that particular crime.
 
Prisons should be used for those that are a present threat to society like rapists and murderers.

This guy isn't a threat to anyone. So make a creative punishment or jogg on.
No, it is also about giving victims some justice, to see that the person that inflicted so much hurt on them is not getting away with it.

People who think this guy deserves death sentence or whatever really should watch the dpcumentary "The Evil" (german: Das Böse).

You'd likely wouldn't be better than him...probably worse.
And if we commit those crimes, we should be punished also for them. You don't excuse crimes with the argument "well, you might have done it too!"
 
I am not even disagreeing with you, but voluntary ISIS recruits are indeed pardoned all around the world as we speak unless they have personally killed someone.

What? ISIS recruits in Germany get pardoned if and only if there is no or only insufficient evidence to convict them. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

sankt-Antonio

:^)--?-<
Being part of the holocaust has no expiration date. If he never served a sentence for this he should now.

This is a special case imo, since in Germany a lot of people where willingly let of charges to aid the German rebuilding. It just was not feasible to sentence every judge, police officer or hell every German Man that was part of the Nazi regime. So many got to live a free live, some still believing in their fucked ideology.

So these "known" Nazi have to be punished retroactively not only for their crimes but also to show any left over Nazi scum and their children that their way of thinking is not acceptable nor wanted in this country.

And this comes from someone who usually is not for punishment but for rehabilitation. But a Nazi who in cold blood helped eradicate whole ethnic groups needs to simply be gone.
 

Sibylus

Banned
I don't buy that. People with strong enough morals to die for them, especially when everyone around you (including your friends/family go along) are one in a billion. This is not some gang recruiting you, it's your whole birth nation and in the time when you just couldn't go online to educate yourself or get in contact with people around the world.

The crimes are horrible and the guilty should be punished, but get out of here with that holy man bullshit.



I am not even disagreeing with you, but voluntary ISIS recruits are indeed pardoned all around the world as we speak unless they have personally killed someone.

And you are partial, you cannot be objective about this and it's fine. I'm the same with a certain type of crime that happened to a loved one, I can never be objective when I think about the justice system and that particular crime.

You don't buy that my life expectancy in the Reich would be short, by dint of being a trans woman, lesbian, and possessing psychotic depression to boot? They'd dig me up and kill me a few more times for measure.
 

Dmax3901

Member
I did read the thread. It is filled with posts saying he personally killed people at Auschwitz.

If there was evidence of him killing people his sentence wouldn't only be four years. I (and others in this thread) clearly still think he should go to jail despite this.
 
What good does locking him up do? Serious question. What is the net societal positive here?
To show that genocide doesn't have an expiration date and we still sentence people for it.

Let's say we don't sentence him. Where is that line drawn? Should we have done it when he was 90, 80, maybe 70, or is that also too old? A decade after the events, 2, 4, 6? When has enough time passed? So instead of drawing random lines, we hand out justice.
 

Wiped89

Member
Why?

Who is the justice for at this point. He has likely outlived the Majority of prisoners and I'm sure if any surviving Auschwitz Survivor's were asked if a 96 year old Book keeper should serve prison time for this they would object.

That said maybe 96 is a mercy, He won't be incarcerated for a long time I bet, The change in living conditions will likely cause a rapid decline in health. That said just let the man go about his remaining months at this point.

The justice is for the fact he helped kill 300,000 people?!?

Honestly the internet is scary sometimes with the opinions expressed. I am also sure the Auschwitz survivors who went through absolute hell and saw their families slaughtered very much want every last person involved to rot in jail, to say the least.

Justice is done because when someone breaks the law, they are punished. It doesn't have to be 'for' any person in particular.

Also, four years? Guy should be given life so he'll die in prison.
 

Quonny

Member
To show that genocide doesn't have an expiration date and we still sentence people for it.

Let's say we don't sentence him. Where is that line drawn? Should we have done it when he was 90, 80, maybe 70, or is that also too old? A decade after the events, 2, 4, 6? When has enough time passed? So instead of drawing random lines, we hand out justice.
The line shouldn't be his age but rather what benefit does this justice provide.

Does he provide more support to the Jewish community in jail, serving time for a crime, or does he support the Jewish community more by speaking out against Holocaust deniers, but being free to live a normal life?

For me it's not his age but rather which decision is overall better for society. It's not an easy thing to answer.
 
The line shouldn't be his age but rather what benefit does this justice provide.

Does he provide more support to the Jewish community in jail, serving time for a crime, or does he support the Jewish community more by speaking out against Holocaust deniers, but being free to live a normal life?

For me it's not his age but rather which decision is overall better for society. It's not an easy thing to answer.
I don't think you'll ever get agreement over whether serving time or speaking out about the Holocaust is better for the Jewish community. And even then, it is not up to a vote, since the law is the law.

If he wants, he can still speak out against Holocaust denial by doing writing in prison for example.
 

Quonny

Member
I don't think you'll ever get agreement over whether serving time or speaking out about the Holocaust is better for the Jewish community. And even then, it is not up to a vote, since the law is the law.

If he wants, he can still speak out against Holocaust denial by doing writing in prison for example.
Right, and I think that's where this debate comes from. At least for me.

I don't think either side is wrong. Such is morality and justice.
 
Prison isn't for punishment but for rehabilitation. What's to rehabilitate here?
I don't think prison is just for rehab. Where would you put someone like Osama bin Laden or Hitler if they were captured alive? I'm not comparing them to this guy but just saying there is a line between rehab and punishment use, at least in my opinion.
 

Sloane

Banned
I don't think prison is just for rehab. Where would you put someone like Osama bin Laden or Hitler if they were captured alive?
Well, for rehabilitation and resocialization, that's the stated goal at least. And those guys obviously were beyond that at their respective time.
 
Yes there is definitely cases of soldiers being able to sit out if they didn't want to be in the war. But the vast majority of civilians that were conscripted couldn't sit out if they were healthy and were simply labeled a traitor. That's how conscription worked in most countries around this time.



That's hard to believe, do you have a source?

It's not really about just participation in the war. There's getting conscripted into the army and then there's being an active participant in the Holocaust. Contrary to popular belief, the "actions" were voluntary aside from the peer pressure but we as a society have deemed that resistance is expected and just following orders is not enough. The Nazis never really had to force anything. They never forced people to buy Jewish homes and houses at rock bottom prices or sell bread at the ghettos for exorbitant amounts. I don't think they had to force people to sell out their neighbors to the Gestapo. Resistance was demonstrably possible in the regime when the Jewish boycott failed because people were pushing past Nazis to get into the stores they wanted and old ladies were smacking them with their handbags. They couldn't do what they did without public support and active participation and they got it. The regime only lost favor when the Allied bombs started dropping on their own heads and the Red Army was closing in. Not when they could smell the concentration camp from the living in the nice house they got from selling out their neighbors. A little off-topic but I don't think there was a huge push to punish the civilian aspect of the regime who participated, collaborated or benefited from because you would have gutted most of the country.
 

w3bba

Member
I really don't get many people in this thread. just wow...

my personal take on this:
the prison sentence at this age is more symbolic than punishment. this man lived his life. but it shows to the public that the law is upheld and enforced. he was willingly a Nazi, he participated in the genocide of the Jews. therefore he committed a crime that cannot be pardoned. so sending him to jail shows that no matter how much time passes, the crimes of the Nazi regime are unforgivable.

Was he scum back then? highly likely. is he now? very unlikely. does he deserve this sentence? yes.
 
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