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[theignoramus]

Imagine being arrogant enough to believe you're special enough not to get swept up into a wave of social change regardless of how abhorrent it is, because of your modern sensibilities/perspectives and divorcement from the same influences and social pressure these people faced.

There's a very good chance that anyone on an high horse in this thread could have been one of those faceless "monsters" or apart of the plethora of silent voices.

I wouldnt have voluntarily participated in any death camp activity. And I'm sure plenty will take issue with your insinuation that moral standards in the 1930s were so wildly different that genocide was some sort of grey area.....There's a reason why the Nazis tried to destroy evidence of their death camps as the American army closed in on them, they knew what they did was a grotesque crime against humanity.

 

[Occam]

You keep ignoring the quotes, he saw the horrors and thought the only issue was the excessive way they committed genocide, he saw genocide and said it just needs to be cleaner.

Yet you offer no evidence of him joining the Waffen SS in anticipation of participating in genocide a couple of years later.

 

[MUnited83]

It sends the message that no matter how long you avoid it, being a party to genocide is never something that outruns justice

Yes, the thing that is totally be a deterrence to someone participating in genocide is spending a whole 4 years in a prison at the end of your life at a age most people don't even reach to begin with.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Yet you offer no evidence of him joining the Waffen SS in anticipation of participating in genocide a couple of years later.

He saw it, he agreed with it, he just felt it should have been neater. He also hid his involvement from the British, showing that he ya know knew it was wrong.

That's all that matters

 

[Opto]

Yes, the thing that is totally be a deterrence to someone participating in genocide is spending a whole 4 years in a prison at the end of your life at a age most people don't even reach to begin with.

Well then, might as well not prosecute any war criminals!

 

[Gattsu25]

The old "just following orders"

He got to live a full life, unlike the people he robbed and sent to slaughter

This is exactly how I feel.

 

[Muffin1611]

Yes, the thing that is totally be a deterrence to someone participating in genocide is spending a whole 4 years in a prison at the end of your life at a age most people don't even reach to begin with.

So old people are immune from being sentenced?

 

[Dmax3901]

Yet you offer no evidence of him joining the Waffen SS in anticipation of participating in genocide a couple of years later.

Did you miss my post on the previous page? He believed the genocide was necessary, he believed Judaism needed to be eradicated. This mindset requires punishment I don't care how long ago it was or what he's done in the meantime.

Also, he's spent years now speaking out against holocaust deniers. Given interviews about his experiences etc. Those records won't evaporate if he's sent to jail. He's served his purpose as a historical source, now let him serve his time.

 

[poppabk]

Cant believe people object to this.
Do the same people object to this guy getting (limited as it turns out) jail time?
http://www.readthehook.com/98246/cover-i-harmed-you-21-years-12-steps-later-rape-apology-backfires

 

[excelsiorlef]

Didn't say it was, but it has more value than punishment.

Not always...

You think it's justice? I don't think so. But that's besides the point. Even if this was "justice," it's not worth it.

Where is the good in locking up an old man, indoctrinated at an age where anyone could have been? I can't think of anything good about it.

On top of that, it's 70 years after, when there is no more lesson to teach, and he can help out far more being around and talking. We could use this time to try to get others in the spotlight, who were like him, so they can talk about history. Now they will stay hidden.

What's the bad in doing it? Common. That's easy. A guy who should just be left alone to die, is instead being locked up, for the pleasure of other people. Now, he has to die alone in a cell. Not to mention the history we lose, that mentioned above.
That's bad.

Let's be real. We only lose in doing this. We don't gain anything.

He offered no freedom to millions, he deserves none of his own.

His "activism" was mostly answering letters and phone calls, he can do that in prison.

He shouldn't be left alone, he evaded justice, he evaded responsibility even when he was a POW. Age does not entitle you to freedom from consequences

 

[GeordieMark]

It will actually. It says no one gets away with being p[art of the Holocaust even if you hide away until you're 96 years old.

It's not like stealing a car or being caught with drugs. Holocausts aren't a crime that you deter people from using jail sentences. There's no point to this. I'm not bothered what happens to the guy personally, but don't try and pretend locking him up will make any difference to anything.

 

[MUnited83]

Well then, might as well not prosecute any war criminals!

War criminals already aren't prosecuted as long as they are on the winning side.

So old people are immune from being sentenced?

The whole point of the prison system is removing people that are a threat to society's safety and rehabilitating. At this point in time, he's no longer a threat, and obviously he will not have any kind of rehabillitation after the 4 years. He will be the same person he was when he got there.

 

[EdibleKnife]

It's not like stealing a car or being caught with drugs. Holocausts aren't a crime that you deter people from using jail sentences. There's no point to this. I'm not bothered what happens to the guy personally, but don't try and pretend locking him up will make any difference to anything.

There are literally people on the street today in the US and abroad who praise Hitler and want a culling of people they consider abominable. By going light on this man you send the message that pushing the envelope in regards of your rhetoric and hate is fine. Hell, even if you don't commit genocide at least you know that if you're shy of that, there are zero consequences since there aren't that many for the people who actually have blood on their hands after all.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Its justice. Lock him up.

 

[Unbounded]

What good is served not having him face justice?

That whole "speaking out against Holocaust deniers" thing was pretty a-ok if you ask me. Make him do more of that.

This guy isn't exactly a danger, no real message can be sent with this that hasn't before, and any efforts towards rehabilitation are wasted at his age. I don't really see what exactly were to be lost if it was decided that he wasn't going to prison.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

So old people are immune from being sentenced?

Yeah, that argument doesn't hold up. Like, if Cosby started talking about drugging women as a regret of his, does he get to walk?

 

[Future PhaZe]

Imagine being arrogant enough to believe you're special enough not to get swept up into a wave of social change regardless of how abhorrent it is, because of your modern sensibilities/perspectives and divorcement from the same influences and social pressure these people faced.

There's a very good chance that anyone on an high horse in this thread could have been one of those faceless "monsters" or apart of the plethora of silent voices.

get peer pressured into genocide brehs

 

[Dmax3901]

That whole "speaking out against Holocaust deniers" thing was pretty a-ok if you ask me. Make him do more of that.

This guy isn't exactly a danger, no real message can be sent with this that hasn't before, and any efforts towards rehabilitation are wasted at his age. I don't really see what exactly were to be lost if it was decided that he wasn't going to prison.

He's done that for decades now and he can do it from prison. Also how are we suddenly treating holocaust deniers like sane, rational people who would be happy to sit down and have a civil discussion about the topic?

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

I mean if he goes free it's kind a like the holocaust didn't happen at all amirite guys

/s

 

[Tetsujin_MK]

Justice is like an orgasm, it can never come too late.

 

[AmayaPapaya]

Also, enough of "he was too young/indoctrinated to resist the Nazis".

People were awake back then and saw Hitler was nothing but trouble.

Gandhi's letter to Hitler

Nazis are the lowest point of humanity. I can't feel sorry for a group of people who codified genocide into law.

I don't think we should compare a child to Gandhi. He was a 70 year old revolutionary by this time, living in India. This guy was 12, living in the midst of a Propaganda machine.

And no, the German people were not "Awake." They knew a lot of what was going on, and supported it. A lot of them were victims of a party that scapegoated all their problems onto an "other." As a people, they were punished by the war, and by the lasting effects after. No reason to go back, all of a sudden, on the few who remain to do even more. We could argue that maybe it wasn't enough, but, in the end, it's all pointless. Germany is a good place now, and learned a lot of lessons. The US could learn a lot from them about tolerance and acceptance.

Like I said, at this point, it's just "Justice Porn" at the expense of an old man. Not worth it.

Not always...

But in this case, yes.

 

[tonysidaway]

I don't really understand war crime standards, I thought you had to be an active and willing participant in atrocities against human beings. Like being part of the chain that kills innocent civilians.

While taking their money and belongings and counting it is distasteful and should be soul crushing, is it really a war crime? Wouldn't that also then basically classify anyone who made products used at the concentration camps, or transported prisoners to there, or washed guards clothing, etc part of the crime of complicity?

Yes. Next question.

 

[Dmax3901]

I don't think we should compare a child to Gandhi. He was a 70 year old revolutionary by this time, living in India. This guy was 12, living in the midst of a Propaganda machine.

Why do people keep talking about him when he was 12, what has that got to do with anything?

 

[The Hamburglar]

Live free or die hard.

I'm surprised people keep saying people HE killed.

Did he kill anyone or did he just do the books and sort the stolen goods.

 

[Bad7667]

In the world we live in now, it's very easy to say he should have known what was happening was horrific and evil. Unfortunately, the world during this time period was full of insane racist shit, and living in Nazi Germany was even worse. For God sakes, even the USA was under the impression eugenics was perfectly normal, thought to be real science and was regularly used to sterilize people considered "lesser than".

If that was happening in America, I can't even begin to imagine what it's like to live under an evil authoritarian dictatorship constantly using every means at their disposable to brainwash the population, turning your own children against you, and making people disappear.

Having said that I'm not sure where I stand on this man going to jail. He contributed to the deaths of millions or was at least part of the process. But what could he have done differently I don't know. I doubt he could personally have stopped the deaths of all those innocents, and I'm not sure if he would have been able to even think of them as such. I just don't know. And now I'm almost crying thinking about all those people.

 

[Dmax3901]

Live free or die hard.

I'm surprised people keep saying people HE killed.

Did he kill anyone or did he just do the books and sort the stolen goods.

In the world we live in now, it's very easy to say he should have known what was happening was horrific and evil. Unfortunately, the world during this time period was full of insane racist shit, and living in Nazi Germany was even worse. For God sakes, even the USA was under the impression eugenics was perfectly normal, thought to be real science and was regularly used to sterilize people considered "lesser than".

If that was happening in America, I can't even begin to imagine what it's like to live under an evil authoritarian dictatorship constantly using every means at their disposable to brainwash the population, turning your own children against you, and making people disappear.

Having said that I'm not sure where I stand on this man going to jail. He contributed to the deaths of millions or was at least part of the process. But what could he have done differently I don't know. I doubt he could personally have stopped the deaths of all those innocents, and I'm not sure if he would have been able to even think of them as such. I just don't know. And now I'm almost crying thinking about all those people.

Try reading the thread. He supported the holocaust and thought it was necessary for Germany to win the war, he just didn't like seeing it firsthand.

 

[NJSlay]

The man had already served time as a POW and then spent his later days denouncing Holocaust deniers. The man he is today is nothing like the man he was 70 years ago.

Chances are a lot of these posts are from Americans. Americans dont know what rehabilitation is, just punishment.

 

[Dmax3901]

Chances are a lot of these posts are from Americans. Americans dont know what rehabilitation is, just punishment.

I'm Australian.

 

[qcf x2]

I don't think he should go to jail. He fought in a war, he lost, it was a very long time ago, he has been outspoken about the true nature of said war for over 3 decades now in the face of stupendous ignorance. He has apparently been consistent in his contrition. There is no "justice" to be had by sending him to prison now.

 

[NJSlay]

I'm Australian.

Exactly! you only know punishment because you live on a prison island with abunch of horrible poisonous beasts.

 

[JordanN]

In the world we live in now, it's very easy to say he should have known what was happening was horrific and evil. Unfortunately, the world during this time period was full of insane racist shit, and living in Nazi Germany was even worse. For God sakes, even the USA was under the impression eugenics was perfectly normal, thought to be real science and was regularly used to sterilize people considered "lesser than".

And yet before 2017, the idea of fighting oppressive tyranny always existed.

I mean, when did the USA become a country? 1776? Or how about the Haitian revolution?

The Nazis formed a government that was always intent on taking people's freedoms away and mass murdering those who disagreed. If you couldn't speak against Hitler, you should know "ok, maybe my life is at risk, regardless if I support these guys".

 

[Dmax3901]

Exactly! you only know punishment because you live on a prison island with abunch of horrible poisonous beasts.

I was born a dropbear wrangler and I'll die a dropbear wrangler.

 

[Demoskinos]

Nothing absolves the man of what he did but I kind of also don't understand what the larger point to this would be. The man's already lived the best years of his life so as a punishment that seems like not that big of a punishment. Symbolically sure I guess but also wouldn't his last years on earth just be best spent telling his story and speaking out against deniers?

Yes, he was an accessory to one of the greatest human tragedies in history but that was like well over 50 years ago at this point I think its just better he be out doing whatever rehabilitative work he can. To me at least that would be a much better use of his last years on earth. I don't think anyone here is saying forget or forgive what he was a part of but vengence for the sake of vengence I don't think accomplishes anything.

 

[Occam]

As I see it, Groening's only wrongdoing was joining a criminal organization at the age of 19. At the time, did he understand that the Waffen SS was a criminal organization? Certainly not, back then he obviously believed in nazi ideology and agreed with it, and thought he was joining an elite military unit.
Now in Auschwitz he could have volunteered for all sorts of criminal actions, yet he didn't. He did not personally commit any crimes. Genocide wasn't defined as a crime until 1946. So simply being there (in Auschwitz) while committing no other offenses obviously couldn't have been a crime at the time. Nulla poena sine lege.
For 70 years, no one was sentenced just for having been there.
So now that none of the real perpetrators are left, the definition of accessory to murder has been strained quite a lot to allow for the conviction of a man who had little responsibility. Had this same definition been used 30 or 40 years ago, hundreds of thousands would have gone to prison.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Imagine being arrogant enough to believe you're special enough not to get swept up into a wave of social change regardless of how abhorrent it is, because of your modern sensibilities/perspectives and divorcement from the same influences and social pressure these people faced.

There's a very good chance that anyone on an high horse in this thread could have been one of those faceless "monsters" or apart of the plethora of silent voices.

You know there were people back then who didn't get swept up, right

 

[Dmax3901]

As I see it, Groening's only wrongdoing was joining a criminal organization at the age of 19. At the time, did he understand that the Waffen SS was a criminal organization? Certainly not, back then he obviously believed in nazi ideology and agreed with it, and thought he was joining an elite military unit.
Now in Auschwitz he could have volunteered for all sorts of criminal actions, yet he didn't. He did not personally commit any crimes. Genocide wasn't defined as a crime until 1946. So simply being there (in Auschwitz) while committing no other offenses obviously couldn't have been a crime at the time. Nulla poena sine lege.
For 70 years, no one was sentenced just for having been there.
So now that none of the real perpetrators are left, the definition of accessory to murder has been strained quite a lot to allow for the conviction of a man who had little responsibility. Had this same definition been used 30 or 40 years ago, hundreds of thousands would have gone to prison.

I mean if you don't think there's any point in putting him in prison fine, but why go to this much work to defend his actions? The guy BELIEVED in the genocide, he thought it was RIGHT.

 

[Lifeline]

A crueler fate then what happened to the prisoners at Auschwitz?

Fuck that, lock this old bastard up.

Like I said, the prison system shouldn't be a tool for revenge, but rehabilitation. The only reason he was arrested is that he decided to speak out against holocaust deniers.

 

[Occam]

I mean if you don't think there's any point in putting him in prison fine, but why go to this much work to defend his actions? The guy BELIEVED in the genocide, he thought it was RIGHT.

But believing terrible things isn't really enough to put people in prison, is it?

 

[PingPongvonLaserstein]

But believing terrible things isn't really enough to put people in prison, is it?

Believing in terrible things and then dedicating yourself to and actively working to facilitate said terrible things certainly is.

 

[Bounceounce]

You know there were people back then who didn't get swept up, right

And?

 

[Dmax3901]

But believing terrible things isn't really enough to put people in prison, is it?

When the person in question also worked at Auschwitz? Yes.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

And?

Then what the fuck was that whiny ass post for lol

"You all think you're so special, knowing right from wrong! You probably all would have joined the Nazis!"

The fuck you talmbout

 

[legend166]

Hitler would have been super outspoken against Holocaust denial too.

Anyway, the idea that an approach to criminal justice should be a binary choice between punitive or rehabilitative is reductive. You can believe in the rehabilitative aspects of prison (and even put more emphasis on them over the punitive aspects) and still believe it's reasonable that a man that participated in the most efficient mass murder the world has ever seen deserves prison time, even if he has expressed remorse.

What makes the holocaust unique throughout history was how killing was essentially turned into an industry, including things like mundane book keeping. Without these things there's no way they could have killed that many people. And as others have stated, there's practically no evidence that people were forced into this industry against their will. Even soliders were allowed to opt out of killing squads.

 

[AmayaPapaya]

Why do people keep talking about him when he was 12, what has that got to do with anything?

He was 12 when the Nazis came to power. Changes the conversation considerably. No one can stand here and say, with complete confidence, they'd be different from him. How much can you blame someone for being raised to believe terrible things, and then continuing on as a young adult?

It doesn't absolve him from his crimes, but we aren't talking about normal circumstances. This is clearly someone who, as an adult, changed his mind, and admitted wrong. It's 70 years later now. It's not yesterday. Maybe if he was older than 12, and had complete agency over his actions, we could talk about this differently. Until then, I think, it's not worth punishing him, again, after all these years.

This does nothing good, and no one can give a concrete reason as to why it would be good, without some vague use of the word "justice" or "lesson." How about something tangible? In every way, this sounds like, "We want to punish someone to make us feel better" rather than to actually accomplish anything. I don't think that is a good reason to lock someone up. That's a very serious thing to do. Prison shouldn't be the go to answer for anything ideological. Stripping others of their natural rights shouldn't come as easy as, "it will make everyone feel better."

 

[Ryuukan]

He was 12 when the Nazis came to power. Changes the conversation considerably. No one can stand here and say, with complete confidence, they'd be different from him. How much can you blame someone for being raised to believe terrible things, and then continuing on as a young adult?

Jewish gaffers would be different from him

they'd be in a ditch on top of their parents

 

[TarNaru33]

You say this with the understanding that he would probably have been shot if he didn't follow orders, yes?

Isn't the SS sort of different? If I am not mistaken you have to believe and be dedicated to the ideology of Nazism to be part of the SS.

I am very conflicted with this ruling. Not because of his age, but because he seemed to be very active in combating Holocaust denial and detailing what he and the SS did. I am not sure we can call it repenting and rehabilitation, but its hard to want to lock up a guy that seemed to acknowledge the wrong he did.

I disagree with those talking about his time as a POW as being somewhat like "served time". Most POWs are not prisoners for war crime and genocide, so it shouldn't count as any "punishment" for lack of a better word.

 

[Oersted]

Nazis are the real victims here apparently. Poor brainwashed guys.

 

[JasonUresti]

GAF all about that rehabilitation-

Until they aren't.

 

[PingPongvonLaserstein]

Maybe if he was older than 12, and had complete agency over his actions, we could talk about this differently. Until then, I think, it's not worth punishing him, again, after all these years.

He. Was. Never. Punished. For. His. Crimes.

In fact, to hear this old cunt tell it, he never "technically" did anything wrong since he wasn't giving orders or pulling triggers/opening valves. Fuck him. He deserves worse.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Jewish gaffers would be different from him

they'd be in a ditch on top of their parents

Got

Damn