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[Oersted]

Can you please avoid making this personal? It's a debate that has no clear answer. Obviously you feel that justice should always be served, I believe that forgiveness is possible.

There is no clear answer(there is), that is why you want people to admit that this is another witch hunt.

wow Misunderstood-Nazi-Defense GAF is reppin HARD in this thread.

In these threads, Nazis are always the real victims

 

[gutter_trash]

He was 19 when he enlisted

Then he was a full adult then

 

[excelsiorlef]

Then he was a full adult then

Duh

That's what we've been saying.

 

[XOMTOR]

Yeah, I think we are done.

Yea, same here. Being labelled a Nazi sympathizer is enough internet for one day.

 

[Kientin]

This seems like a pretty clear litmus test for determining an individual's view of the primary purpose of jail: punishment or rehabilitation. Obviously, it's meant to serve both to some capacity, but I tend to fall on the side of rehabilitation, so I'd say he should go free at this point. Additionally, no one benefits from this- society loses his activism, he's clearly a different person than he was when the crimes were committed and has even incriminated himself with his activism so there's little repair to be done to his character, those who suffered are either dead or won't receive reparations/benefits in any way from his incarceration, and taxpayers will have to foot the bill for the remainder of his days. Vengeance and anger are the only beneficiaries of this man going to jail now.



Justice is far more forgiving and concerned with redemption than you're making it out to be.

As bad of a taste Oskar's actions leave in my mouth, this is pretty much my stance on the matter.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

Can you please avoid making this personal? It's a debate that has no clear answer. Obviously you feel that justice should always be served, I believe that forgiveness is possible.

What exactly would you like this man forgiven for? Feel free to type it out in full.

And justice and forgiveness are not mutually exclusive, by the way. Roman Polanski's victim forgives him for his crime of raping her as a young girl. He has escaped justice for a very long time. Should justice for his crime stop being pursued because she forgave him?

Also, if it were to come down to forgiveness like in the above example, exactly who do you think has the right to forgive this man? Who is left?

 

[Oersted]

Yea, same here. Being labelled a Nazi sympathizer is enough internet for one day.

You accused the german justice system of doing a witch hunt.

Again, you compared a fair trial to a witch hunt.

 

[Sad Affleck]

Both of my grandparents lost their entire families to the Holocaust until they met one another.

It's not just an emotional response, but one I've thought logically about, but I really can't understand the people who think justice has a statute of limitations. It's not about vengeance or retribution, but about justice that says these kinds of crimes may never go unpunished.

It didn't go unpunished. This man was put on trial and he was convicted for the crime that he was being accused of. This is the justice part. The way that his sentence should be carried out is a different matter and it is about what our modern society and governments consider fair and humane treatment of convicted criminals. That is the part which I personally object to.

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

It seems like it would be more useful to codify his public speaking engagements into a formal punishment for which he can seek no remuneration. Having the state pay for travel/lodging to facilitate that punishment would still be cheaper than incarcerating him.

 

[Oersted]

It didn't go unpunished. This man was put on trial and he was convicted for the crime that he was being accused of. This is the justice part. The way that his sentence should be carried out is a different matter and it is about what our modern society and governments consider fair and humane treatment of convicted criminals. That is the part which I personally object to.

He receives fair and humane treatment

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

You accused the german justice system of doing a witch hunt.

Again, you compared a fair trial to a witch hunt.

If that's not sympathizing with a Nazi I don't know what is.

Like seriously it's literally sympathizing with a Nazi

 

[Onivulk]

Every single day he is free is a direct insult to the hundreds of thousands of people he helped kill. When he was taking those possessions he was old enough to know that it was wrong.

On the other hand, his punishment reinforces the idea that he should have just kept his mouth shut and never have tried to right his wrongs.

Nobody wins.

 

[guggnichso]

wow Misunderstood-Nazi-Defense GAF is reppin HARD in this thread.

Only when the victims are white people. Because who cares about Jews? They're basically the new NAZIs anyway. /s

 

[Agent Unknown]

Good, this kind of justice should know no bounds.

 

[Apocryphon]

His sentence is 4 years.

 

[Tetsujin_MK]

It seems like it would be more useful to codify his public speaking engagements into a formal punishment for which he can seek no remuneration. Having the state pay for travel/lodging to facilitate that punishment would still be cheaper than incarcerating him.

He doesn't have public speaking engagements as far as I can tell. Him speaking out against holocaust denial and about his role in Auschwitz in a BBC documentary from over a decade ago seems to have been misinterpreted as "activism" here like he's been going around the country actively going after holocaust deniers or attending speaking events.

 

[Cocaloch]

?

Admittedly the word "or" is doing a lot of work in this sentence.

You seem to be confusing why I think state power came about and the justifications of state power. Things generally don't come into being because they are justified. They are created and then justified.

And honestly I'm just not seeing how those two statements are contradictory anyway. You're going to have to make some sort of argument about why those two statements can't work together for me to understand what you're getting at.

I suppose I should clarify something that might be somewhat ambiguous, that or means or people feel that power is legitimate. I wasn't making any claim about legitimacy outside of people considering things legitimate, because I think that'd be absurd.

 

[gabbo]

You should change your approach to life and justice.

Im not sure if im being damned for saying he should be punished in some form (but not necessarily jail) or because I said the ideal of those complicit in genocide should 'always be held accountable' is not applied universally, eg not every genocidal group is hunted/saught out with the same zeal as Nazis are.

 

[Whitephantomzx]

Honestly i believe the dead would get more justice with him shutting down deniers instead of just throwing him in prison

 

[Chmpocalypse]

The article says he's willing to accept the court verdict, whatever it is. So yes, he seems to accept it.


And you weren't a direct participant and you're almost 100 years old and close to death? No, not forgiven, but yes, they are mitigating factors. Remove any one of these and I bet it wouldn't be such a debate.


Groening hasn't committed any crimes (that we know of) since WW2, Cosby has been an unrepentant rapist for most of his life, and he's old but still has potentially many years left. I don't think they are equivalent at all. If Cosby had drugged and raped women for a brief period of his youth, never got caught, then much later in life admitted to it and actively campaigned against sexual assault, a lot people would probably feel different about the whole thing.

Wait, he accepts it?

Then why are there people in here arguing against it?

The former Nazi himself accepts his punishment as fitting. I think this case is fucking CLOSED.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

wow Misunderstood-Nazi-Defense GAF is reppin HARD in this thread.

It's on other forums too. Romanticizing the Nazi era seems to have begun with "critical" minds analyzing the seemingly unescapable fate of this one Nazi who according to German media was a voluntary SS member. The Holocaust is getting the both sides treatment essentially.

 

[Drain You]

This one is hard for me to even formulate a solid opinion about. He did what he did, deserves what he gets, and now he's got to live with it.

I've got no good feelings about this.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Wait, he accepts it?

Then why are there people in here arguing against it?

The former Nazi himself accepts his punishment as fitting. I think this case is fucking CLOSED.

Well, people are allowed to have opinions on how to handle justice, regardless of what the perp himself says.

Anyway here's what the article said:

On his first day in court in April, Groening said he felt morally guilty for his work at Auschwitz but that it was up to the court to determine if he was legally guilty.

His lawyer later said Groening felt he could "only ask" God for forgiveness because the crimes committed at Auschwitz were "on such a scale that he can't expect either the victims or their relatives to even think about the question of forgiveness."

So, it seems he agreed to let the courts decide his fate.

 

[UCBooties]

Speaking up against holocaust deniers doesn't outweigh the thousands of people he killed in a fucking genocide.

What's up with the nazi defense force?

I don't think that people who see his decision to risk his freedom and anonymity to denounce his past work and allegiance as laudable or sympathetic deserve to be labeled a "nazi defense force."

Plenty of people want to believe in redemptive change in even the worst of humanity and it doesn't hurt that he put himself at risk to make himself a foil of neo-nazis.

That being said, I'm in the camp that you really can't ever fully atone for that kind of atrocity so his punishment, however delayed, is still deserved.

 

[SurrenderDorothy]

I think it's wrong just to let him roam free after what he has done to all those people during WW2. Rehabilitated or not, I can't agree that a Nazi, let alone someone in the SS should just be let go because he's done decent things, good things even.

He got to have a full life, he should have been locked up years ago.

 

[Raylan Targaryen]

I like they are still chasing these dudes down, they should never rest for what they were a part of.

If the USA had did something similar after the Civil War, the USA would probably be a lot better off.

Germany is disgusted with their history. America isn't. In fact the only thing this country is ashamed of is that the South lost

 

[Corronchilejano]

You can't undo the damage you do by atoning, but I fail to see what justice is served by locking him up.

 

[Occam]

Was too tired to reply yesterday, but I'd like to add something: Arguing the merit of this legal case (in a calm and rational non black and white manner) in no way makes you a Nazi sympathizer or a Nazi apologist, doesn't diminish the Holocaust and its victims and doesn't mean you don't believe that the perpetrators should be punished. Up until to now, German criminal code always required direct personal guilt for a conviction, which in my opinion was not reasonably established in this specific case.
Unless no mod saw it, I'm actually surprised that insults like "Misunderstood-Nazi-Defense GAF" were allowed to stand; that is simply not OK.

 

[TomWaitsForNoMan]

This seems like a pretty clear litmus test for determining an individual's view of the primary purpose of jail: punishment or rehabilitation.

No it isn't. It's perfectly reasonable to believe that while ordinary criminals can and should be rehabilitated rather then punished, Nazis who participated in genocide should be either imprisoned for life or executed due to the nature of their crime. There's a difference between everyday crimes and political crimes/crimes against humanity

You can't undo the damage you do by atoning, but I fail to see what justice is served by locking him up.

Nazis should never be allowed to walk free. That's the justice it serves

 

[Not Drake]

I don't really want to debate if a 96 y/o should be put in prison. That's for a judge and justice system to figure out and decide. All I know that it's a fucking disgrace it takes this long to convict and punish the biggest criminals mankind could ever know. Germany often failed to punish nazis and the whole Eastern Europe couldn't deal with communists that killed hundreds of thousands of people after 1945. Here in Poland I'm ashamed we ultimately failed to punish these scums and instead were paying them insane retirement benefits and burying them with military funeral honours. Disgusting.

 

[salty_Josh]

This poor, brave ex-Nazi who had to live for a whole 40 years before speaking out about what he did in Auschwitz. After helping by telling people what horrible things he got away with, he's being sent to prison?! Oh the injustice. Surely once he confesses 40 years after the fact that should absolve him of all of his crimes and he should go free.

 

[Oersted]

Im not sure if im being damned for saying he should be punished in some form (but not necessarily jail) or because I said the ideal of those complicit in genocide should 'always be held accountable' is not applied universally, eg not every genocidal group is hunted/saught out with the same zeal as Nazis are.

A Nazi getting punished by the german justice system because Nazi's are just easier to hate than others who have committed genocide since and easier to point to, is one of the most absurd and stupid conclusions I ever read. Its mindboggling idiotic.

Was too tired to reply yesterday, but I'd like to add something: Arguing the merit of this legal case (in a calm and rational non black and white manner) in no way makes you a Nazi sympathizer or a Nazi apologist, doesn't diminish the Holocaust and its victims and doesn't mean you don't believe that the perpetrators should be punished. Up until to now, German criminal code always required direct personal guilt for a conviction, which in my opinion was not reasonably established in this specific case.
Unless no mod saw it, I'm actually surprised that insults like "Misunderstood-Nazi-Defense GAF" were allowed to stand; that is simply not OK.

I explained multiple times troughout the thread that it isn't needed for accessory to murder in a Konzentrationslager. Get over it.

 

[lawnchair]

what is this Justice people keep talking about? is it like God?

 

[poppabk]

I don't really want to debate if a 96 y/o should be put in prison. That's for a judge and justice system to figure out and decide. All I know that it's a fucking disgrace it takes this long to convict and punish the biggest criminals mankind could ever know. Germany often failed to punish nazis and the whole Eastern Europe couldn't deal with communists that killed hundreds of thousands of people after 1945. Here in Poland I'm ashamed we ultimately failed to punish these scums and instead were paying them insane retirement benefits and burying them with military funeral honours. Disgusting.

Lets not forget the US and Russia fighting each other to give Nazi's lucrative jobs.

 

[gabbo]

A Nazi getting punished by the german justice system because Nazi's are just easier to hate than others who have committed genocide since and easier to point to, is one of the most absurd and stupid conclusions I ever read. Its mindboggling idiotic.

That's not what I was saying at all.

This guy deserves punishment for what he did.
What I was saying is that unlike former Nazis in hiding, others who have committed genocide are not hunted nearly as thoroughly for their crimes.

 

[Old Gimlet Eyes]

It seems like it would be more useful to codify his public speaking engagements into a formal punishment for which he can seek no remuneration. Having the state pay for travel/lodging to facilitate that punishment would still be cheaper than incarcerating him.

Then put a bullet in his nazi head. 20 cents good to go.

 

[Xando]

I don’t know why this is such a big discussion.

If he’s deemed healthy enough i don’t see why he should be above the law because he’s old.

There are clear laws and punishments for ex nazis.

 

[jtb]

You seem to be confusing why I think state power came about and the justifications of state power. Things generally don't come into being because they are justified. They are created and then justified.

And honestly I'm just not seeing how those two statements are contradictory anyway. You're going to have to make some sort of argument about why those two statements can't work together for me to understand what you're getting at.

I suppose I should clarify something that might be somewhat ambiguous, that or means or people feel that power is legitimate. I wasn't making any claim about legitimacy outside of people considering things legitimate, because I think that'd be absurd.

My original post was about the justification of state power.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Who fucking cares if hes in his 90s?

Lol. Some people.

Good riddance to the old turd.
Fuck, hes probably better off in prison.

 

[Oersted]

That's not what I was saying at all.

This guy deserves punishment for what he did.
What I was saying is that unlike former Nazis in hiding, others who have committed genocide are not hunted nearly as thoroughly for their crimes.

By the german justice system?

Who are those others?

Why are you bringing this up?

And how is "Nazi's are just easier to hate than others who have committed genocide since and easier to point to" not something you said?

 

[pswii60]

I can't believe the ageism in this thread, it's disgusting. How dare anyone deny this man's human right to go prison just because of his age.

 

[samar11]

Sending him to jail isn't a wrong though?

I wasnt talking about jail mate

 

[gabbo]

By the german justice system?

Who are those others?

Why are you bringing this up?

And how is "Nazi's are just easier to hate than others who have committed genocide since and easier to point to" not something you said?

-Not the German justice system
-I don't see the kind of hunts under way for lower rank perpetrators of genocide in East Timor, Rwanda, Cambodia, Darfur for instance.
-It was brought up earlier in the thread as a reason why some people found this person's sentence unjust/unfair/whatever, because Nazis (again, not necessarily this guy) are hunted with more zeal than others who have committed such acts and are historically and more universally seen as 'Evil'.
-Said it, yes. It was badly worded, not my exact intention.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Lowlife: "Holocaust is lie"
This guy: "Bitch, I was there."
Govt: "K, prison."


I appreciate what he did to fight Holocaust denial, but I am also ok with locking him up even now.
Its a gesture of justice. The cell he gets will probably not be much different from a room in a random elderly care home anyway.