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[Heretic]

Can't believe I missed this yesterday! Thank, man!

Will watch tonight!

 

[Joel Was Right]

Honestly, I don't know. I still have a tendency to think they were fooled somehow, but again, who knows?

To tell you the truth, and I am not trolling here I swear, I was part of a 7 person group that saw a UFO one night.

We live in the country, so it was normal to see lights in the far away field at night. It was maybe around 11 pm, and some friends signaled us to come see them. They said one of the lights was slowly rising into the air. So we sat on the school steps, looking at the seemingly ascending light. We waited, and after maybe 10 minutes, it started coming towards us. Slowly. Silently.

There was sort a crescendo of tension. The closer it was geting, the more obvious it was becoming. The sinking feeling that something abnormal was going on, because a plane cannot fly so low and be so silent. At this point, no one was talking. I remember sitting on a step that was half illuminated by a nearby light, and the other half cast in a shadow. Once the object was almost overhead, I slowly shifted my weight, as if I could conceal my presence from the aliens.

That is when one of the guys snapped, started screaming and running away. Immediately, we all got up and started running towards my house.

The UFO was moving in the same direction as us. We were 7 teenagers, running silently in the dead of night, with a triangular craft moving no more than 15 km per hour gliding above us at at least 100 m in the air. We could see it's undercarriage, faintly illuminated by a couple of colored lights. From that, we could clearly see it was a matte and metallic. While we took refgse in my mothers house, the craft kept on flying, towards the US border.

Going from the moment of pure terror, to this release of energy and being witness to this unbelievable sight was utter exhilaration. I went on to believe in aliens and UFOs for at least another 3 years, based on that experience.

What happened? What made me into a skeptic? I think it was a distancing from the whole thing. I decided to apply critical thinking to this experience, and decided that I could not possible conclude this was anything extraordinary, and classified it as unexplained. The point is, I can, and will probably never know what we saw that night. It was most probably some sort of glider that makes no sound at all doing an unusual nighttime run. I just don't feel comfortable saying "it was an alien UFO", even if people from that group still say that.

The moral of this story is, even when a group is face with a strange phenomena, can we really expect an objective assessment of the event? No. The feeling I felt that night were so intense, I have no doubt the others lived the same gamut as I did. I went an extra step and evaluated the experience, coming to the conclusion that it probably wasn't an alien spacecraft.

As a skeptic that has had a UFO encounter, I find myself well placed to know how these eyewitnesses feel. Knowing what know, and seeing what I been though, I cannot trust their accounts.

But that was a light in which you couldn't identify. What if you guys actually saw e.g. a saucer land in front of you or did something that could not be rationally explained away. The reason I ask this question is because, despite the insistence for scientific evidence, I believe even the most ardent sceptic has a tolerance level where they will themselves succumb to the realisation that this may be real. That 'tolerance' could be in the form of people they know well.

I've come across a few people who have had amazing encounters similar to what I've just suggested, but interestingly they refused to assign it alien or anything unusual. They refuse to even acknowledge it any more. It's the opposite on the scale of those who assign strange lights to be alien aircraft. The psychology in how people react to the inexplicable isn't necessarily one of embracing or exaggerating it; some reject it completely. I find it curious as to why so many sceptics automatically assume witness testimony could be fabricated or exaggerated without acknowledging that testimony may also be underplayed as well. I have the impression that there are more people who don't want to share their experiences than those who do. Considering the ridicule that follows the subject matter, its far more likely thats the case.

 

[RagnarokX]

Not really comparable. "Da" and "Ba" linguistically are very similar to begin with, so the confusion is understandable. But as I've said before, in many instances there is nothing to contrast these experiences with.

What does that have to do with anything? Your perception of the EXACT SAME auditory stimulus changes when paired with a contradictory visual stimulus. With your eyes closed, you perceive the actual sound: "ba." When paired with the visual stimulus of someone saying "ga" you perceive a phoneme between "ba" and "ga," usually "da." Even knowing how this works, you cannot keep your brain from making this error. It is a clear and simple illustration of how our perception of reality is not always reality.

 

[Joel Was Right]

What does that have to do with anything? Your perception of the EXACT SAME auditory stimulus changes when paired with a contradictory visual stimulus....

Don't you mean to say can change depending on the specific sound? Because this demonstration wouldn't work with every type of sound. For example, the word 'boom'. I can perceive it either through sound or sight. Or the sound of laughter. I'm not challenging that our perception of reality can be distorted, but I don't believe misinterpretation can applied to every circumstance.

 

[RagnarokX]

Don't you mean to say can change depending on the specific sound? Because this demonstration wouldn't work with every type of sound. For example, the word 'boom'. I can perceive it either through sound or sight. Or the sound of laughter.

I was describing the McGurk effect. There aren't multiple stimuli in it and I didn't bring up other stimuli. The only sound is "ba" but your perception changes when paired with the video of "ga."

I'm not sure where on Earth you are going with your boom example, though. There are no videos pairing "boom" with a different visual stimulus. I'm not sure if it would work, but pairing "boom" with a video of someone saying "goom" might produce the perception of "doom"

The point was just to show a novel and salient example of how perception can defy reality. Visual illusions also illustrate the point, but I felt the McGurk effect was a stronger example.

 

[Orayn]

But that was a light in which you couldn't identify. What if you guys actually saw e.g. a saucer land in front of you or did something that could not be rationally explained away. The reason I ask this question is because, despite the insistence for scientific evidence, I believe even the most ardent sceptic has a tolerance level where they will themselves succumb to the realisation that this may be real. That 'tolerance' could be in the form of people they know well.

I've come across a few people who have had amazing encounters similar to what I've just suggested, but interestingly they refused to assign it alien or anything unusual. They refuse to even acknowledge it any more. It's the opposite on the scale of those who assign strange lights to be alien aircraft. The psychology in how people react to the inexplicable isn't necessarily one of embracing or exaggerating it; some reject it completely. I find it curious as to why so many sceptics automatically assume witness testimony could be fabricated or exaggerated without acknowledging that testimony may also be underplayed as well. I have the impression that there are more people who don't want to share their experiences than those who do. Considering the ridicule that follows the subject matter, its far more likely thats the case.

We're aware of this. The extreme malleability of first-hand accounts is what makes them a poor source of evidence. Human eyes and ears are objectively worse than cameras and recorders when it comes to gathering data that can be accurately and faithfully reproduced at a later date. Our senses and memories are just too fuzzy.

 

[Zissou]

Eyewitness testimony is quite weak evidence.


Memory can change the shape of a room; it can change the color of a car. And memories can be distorted. They're just an interpretation, they're not a record, and they're irrelevant if you have the facts. -Leonard Shelby

In these cases we don't have much in the way of facts, but lack of hard evidence doesn't make peoples' statements any more reliable, especially when many of these incidents are only popularized and reported on years after they first occur.

 

[qcf x2]

What happened? What made me into a skeptic? I think it was a distancing from the whole thing. I decided to apply critical thinking to this experience, and decided that I could not possible conclude this was anything extraordinary, and classified it as unexplained. The point is, I can, and will probably never know what we saw that night. It was most probably some sort of glider that makes no sound at all doing an unusual nighttime run. I just don't feel comfortable saying "it was an alien UFO", even if people from that group still say that.

The moral of this story is, even when a group is face with a strange phenomena, can we really expect an objective assessment of the event? No. The feeling I felt that night were so intense, I have no doubt the others lived the same gamut as I did. I went an extra step and evaluated the experience, coming to the conclusion that it probably wasn't an alien spacecraft.

As a skeptic that has had a UFO encounter, I find myself well placed to know how these eyewitnesses feel. Knowing what know, and seeing what I been though, I cannot trust their accounts.

I'm curious about this part. Being as honest as you can, how much of your "critical thinking" could be attributed to you wanting to explain it away as something, anything ordinary, because of the undeniable stigma attached to seeing UFOs? It reads as though you and your friends saw a UFO (by definition) and over the years as your memory dulled and you saw thousands of hoax videos exposed on Youtube you were satisfied with convincing yourself that it was a "weather balloon" so as to distance yourself from feeling like a loon (as opposed to really believing you were wrong).

 

[Raist]

That's my problem with a lot of people on the skeptic side of things. They're always asking for credible witnesses, yet once you offer them once, they brush them off as a liar or nut.

I consider myself somewhat of a skeptic as well but I'm always willing to hear both sides of the story. I don't trust people blindly willing to believe but I equally don't trust those who are will quickly dismiss any shred of credible evidence put before them.

Blind refusal to consider evidence is just as bad as a blind willingness to believe.

Credible proof, not witness. Eyewitness testimony is worth peanuts (well, except in courts of law). doesn't matter if it's a bunch of farmers or a USAF general.

 

[noah111]

Credible proof, not witness. Eyewitness testimony is worth peanuts (well, except in courts of law). doesn't matter if it's a bunch of farmers or a USAF general.

You're missing that the US military and government acted on many of these eyewitness (and actual occurrences) more than once. Seems like most who are posting haven't bothered to watch the video.

 

[Joel Was Right]

You're missing that the US military and government acted on many of these eyewitness (and actual occurrences) more than once. Seems like most who are posting haven't bothered to watch the video.

Yeah, it isn't just a witness testimony but a testimony of knowledge the military is aware of.

It is time for the truth to be brought out... Behind the scenes high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about the UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense.... I urge immediate Congressional action to reduce the dangers from secrecy about unidentified flying objects.​

Former CIA Director Vice Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter, signed statement to Congress, August 22, 1960. Published by the NY Times, p. 30. February 28, 1960

"We have an unidentified flying object" - NASA mission STS-73

All Apollo and Gemini flights were followed, both at a distance and sometimes also quite closely, by space vehicles of extraterrestrial origin - flying saucers, or UFOs, if you want to call them by that name.Every time it occurred, the astronauts informed Mission Control, who then ordered absolute silence."
​

Maurice Chatelain, Former Chief of NASA Communications Systems

It followed us during half of our orbit. We observed it on the light side, and when we entered the shadow side, it disappeared completely. It was an engineered structure, made from some type of metal, approximately 40 meters long with inner hulls. The object was narrow here and wider here, and inside there were openings. Some places had projections like small wings. The object stayed very close to us. We photographed it, and our photos showed it to be 23 to 28 meters away.
​

Cosmonaut Victor Afanasyev commenting on a UFO sighting that occurred while en route to the Solyut 6 space station in April of 1979.

Of course there is no evidence to support their claims, but nonetheless it is a start to have people who would, if such events did occur, be best equipped to know speak out.

 

[RagnarokX]

Of course the government is aware of and concerned about these things. Things people claim to see COULD be security threats. The courts allow eye witness testimony, but that doesn't justify it as reliable evidence. Most wrongful convictions are due to faulty witness testimony.

Witnesses aren't necessarily lying either; they tend to believe they saw what they said they saw. To illustrate this point, there was a man who went to jail for rape after being picked out of a lineup by the victim. Many years later he encountered a man in jail who admitted to being the real rapist. The court held another lineup with the admitted rapist, but the woman still identified the other guy as her rapist. He was in jail for like 20 years before DNA evidence proved conclusively that it wasn't him.

Our senses and memories are faulty and malleable. Here's another example; Loftus' false memory study. Participants were read 3 paragraphs about events that happened in their lives when they were younger. 2 of the events really happened, and 1 of the events was a completely made up story about being lost in a shopping mall that used information from family members. The researchers verified that nothing similar really happened. When asked later what they remembered about these events, 25% of the people claimed they remembered the false event happening. They had a memory of something that never happened.

http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/sciam.htm