OXM: Why splitting Xbox One's OS RAM allocation is good for developers

What you describe is the suspended state, what I am talking about is the constrained state (I forgot the names) that from the leak :
"The game is loaded in memory and is still running, but it has limited access to the system resources. The game is not rendering full screen in this state; it either is rendering to a reduced area of the screen or is not visible at all. The user cannot interact with the game in this state.."

The game does not goes to that state during a skype call (not automatically at least). During a skype call, even when snapped the game still renders a 1080p image.

A skype call by default is handled like the twitch tv demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y46XsAH1WJ8

(around the 2:20 mark)
 
Sometime during the demo he shows the same constrained state with Forza on the dashboard.
The Forza game continues to run even though it constrains to one of the tiles when he brings up the dashboard.

Just because it continues to run does not mean that it has the full power that a game normally has and it does not mean that it can be played in that state.

The game does not goes to that state during a skype call (not automatically at least). During a skype call, even when snapped the game still renders a 1080p image.

A skype call by default is handled like the twitch tv demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y46XsAH1WJ8

(around the 2:20 mark)

That does not really show anything,
Twitch has to be running when a game is running to be of any use in the first place.
So they would have to make sure it does not go into the constrained state, that does not say other programs can do the same.
 
The game does not goes to that state during a skype call (not automatically at least). During a skype call, even when snapped the game still renders a 1080p image.

A skype call by default is handled like the twitch tv demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y46XsAH1WJ8

(around the 2:20 mark)

The specifics about this aren't even known yet. What happens when your friend on skype asks you "How do you turn off you Xbox with voice?" while you're Skyping him on your Xbone?
 
Just because it continues to run does not mean that it has the full power that a game normally has and it does not mean that it can be played in that state.
Correct. In constrained mode it doesn't have full power and you cannot control it in that state.
I'm saying there is a difference between snapping and constrained state.
Constrained state is used when you bring up the dashboard.

And Lukas just posted a video of snapping while playing a game, there.
 
Just because it continues to run does not mean that it has the full power that a game normally has and it does not mean that it can be played in that state.


The killer instinct demo shows it running in snap mode with twitch. I'd expect any games would have to be written to take into account the possibility they'll be run in snap mode
 
The specifics about this aren't even known yet. What happens when your friend on skype asks you "How do you turn off you Xbox with voice?" while you're Skyping him on your Xbone?

Maybe a simple prompt will pop up asking you to confirm?
 
I'm pretty sure I read/saw something regarding snap mode. Basically, any apps can be snapped to a game, but no game can be snapped to a app.
 
The specifics about this aren't even known yet. What happens when your friend on skype asks you "How do you turn off you Xbox with voice?" while you're Skyping him on your Xbone?

Ms said that commands from kinect will now require the user to be engaged (looking at the screen), even if you are in the room but not facing the screen when you said that the console would not respond.

Also, I would assume they will still require the sound calibration that they use with kinect 1.0. Once calibrated kinect knows what audio the console is sending (they receive all the same 5.1 channels the console sends to the speakers), and how that audio reverberates through the room, so it can cancel them.

With calibration kinect can also determine the point of origin to the sound, which is another useful metric to ensure they only pick the actual player's voice.
 
The specifics about this aren't even known yet. What happens when your friend on skype asks you "How do you turn off you Xbox with voice?" while you're Skyping him on your Xbone?
You just tell him? lol

Tales from his ass basically. Vita runs Skype in the BG just fine while in game or browsing.

Who started this tangent of PS4 not being able to multitask? It's erroneously false.
Not at the same time like the xbox one though.
 
Makes sense. I'm actually really look forward to the Xbox One being able to support all sorts of cool apps. People can be so shortsighted sometimes. Just because some people may not want or be interested in their game console doing more, doesn't mean that a lot other people don't want that from their game console. This doesn't somehow mean we care less about gaming, or don't want an incredible game machine, but we are way past the point where we shouldn't be able to have our cake and eat it, too. So with this in mind it makes a lot of sense to try and create proper separation between the app and game side of the console. One of the things I most liked reading about the Xbox One in the vgleaks information is that system rendering, unlike the case in the Xbox 360, would be separated from game rendering because of the move engines. On the Xbox 360 it always annoyed me how because a game was running, or was demanding to a certain extent, it would also impact the performance of the game's OS whenever I decided I wanted to bring it up. I want a silky smooth OS experience.
 
Tales from his ass basically. Vita runs Skype in the BG just fine while in game or browsing.

Who started this tangent of PS4 not being able to multitask? It's erroneously false.
The statement of the PS4 not being able to multitask is just as credible as your statement if you provide no source.
 
Ms said that commands from kinect will now require the user to be engaged (looking at the screen), even if you are in the room but not facing the screen when you said that the console would not respond.

I am pretty sure, when you're skyping on your Xbone, that you'll probably be looking at the screen.

Example:

1. Snap Skype
2. You are talking to your friend (friend is on the skype screen)
3. Friend asks you how to turn off Xbox with voice
4. (You're looking at the screen) Xbox Off
5. Fuuuu

You just tell him? lol
Read up
Not at the same time like the xbox one though.
We haven't seen it actually work.
 
I am pretty sure, when you're skyping on your Xbone, that you'll probably be looking at the screen.

Example:

1. Snap Skype
2. You are talking to your friend (friend is on the skype screen)
3. Friend asks you how to turn off Xbox with voice
4. (You're looking at the screen) Xbox Off
5. Fuuuu


Read up

We haven't seen it actually work.
And when your friend tells you to turn off your PS4 while streaming you gonna do it?

Im talking about vita, as he said runs in the BG.
 
I am pretty sure, when you're skyping on your Xbone, that you'll probably be looking at the screen.

Example:

1. Snap Skype
2. You are talking to your friend (friend is on the skype screen)
3. Friend asks you how to turn off Xbox with voice
4. (You're looking at the screen) Xbox Off
5. Fuuuu


Read up

We haven't seen it actually work.
It reads lip movements too. Nice try, though.
 
I am pretty sure, when you're skyping on your Xbone, that you'll probably be looking at the screen.

Example:

1. Snap Skype
2. You are talking to your friend (friend is on the skype screen)
3. Friend asks you how to turn off Xbox with voice
4. (You're looking at the screen) Xbox Off
5. Fuuuu
.

You know, maybe that'll happen to you once.
Luckily your game state would be saved and you could start it back up and be right where you left off.
You'd laugh about it with your friend and you'd never fall for it again.
 
I never said that. What I said is that there are a limited number of gaming applications that run during a game on PS4, such as video recording and audio chat, and that there is dedicated hw for them so that these specific applications do not use additional CPU power. Regarding memory, if the video is recored to the HDD, no RAM would be used as well.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Any amount of multitasking is going to necessitate CPU resources, if not GPU resources also, and fast task switching will require RAM as well.
 
I am pretty sure, when you're skyping on your Xbone, that you'll probably be looking at the screen.

Example:

1. Snap Skype
2. You are talking to your friend (friend is on the skype screen)
3. Friend asks you how to turn off Xbox with voice
4. (You're looking at the screen) Xbox Off
5. Fuuuu


Read up

We haven't seen it actually work.

Well like I said, I'm sure the Xbox wouldn't just instantly turn off, there'll be a prompt of some sort. Besides, your scenario is a pretty poor one. The ability to turn the Xbox on and off with your voice is something that anybody who owns one will know about.

It's the sort of thing that'll be advertised on TV and written on the back of the box.
 
It reads lip movements too. Nice try, though.

What does reading lips have to do with anything? And that library is highly interpretative and nowhere near accurate.

Well like I said, I'm sure the Xbox wouldn't just instantly turn off, there'll be a prompt of some sort. Besides, your scenario is a pretty poor one. The ability to turn the Xbox on and off with your voice is something that anybody who owns one will know about.

It's the sort of thing that'll be advertised on TV and written on the back of the box.

It applies to every voice command, don't try and make it seem like it's an isolated thing.

Anyway, getting a little off-topic anyway.


Will be neat to see the entire OS actually work for real.
 
The statement of the PS4 not being able to multitask is just as credible as your statement if you provide no source.
There's nothing remotely hinting at PS4 having a lack of BG processing on multiple apps. So if tbat means native party chat or Skype, it will work.

I have no obligation fo source anyone who hands out info in confidence. As I noted once already, if Skype comes to PS4 it will function as able as Vita Skype. That means I can be in game and work it seamlessly and in parallel. There's nothing more I can say since we're venturing off the path too much.
 
I want an all-singing-all-dancing entertainment super-hub. I'm happy that Sony are doing the same thing. I don't really care if you want 7GB for games, I'm not going to spend £350+ on a games-only box.

I am pretty sure, when you're skyping on your Xbone, that you'll probably be looking at the screen.

Example:

1. Snap Skype
2. You are talking to your friend (friend is on the skype screen)
3. Friend asks you how to turn off Xbox with voice
4. (You're looking at the screen) Xbox Off
5. Fuuuu
You've peddled this in every thread you can but I don't see why they wouldn't just filter out sound that goes through the Xbone.

[edit]Oh sorry, I see you've slightly permuted your FUD. I guess my point doesn't apply.
 
What does reading lips have to do with anything? And that library is highly interpretative and nowhere near accurate.



It applies to every voice command, don't try and make it seem like it's an isolated thing.

Well if it bothers you that much just disable the voice recognition.
 
Makes sense. I'm actually really look forward to the Xbox One being able to support all sorts of cool apps. People can be so shortsighted sometimes. Just because some people may not want or be interested in their game console doing more, doesn't mean that a lot other people don't want that from their game console. This doesn't somehow mean we care less about gaming, or don't want an incredible game machine, but we are way past the point where we shouldn't be able to have our cake and eat it, too. So with this in mind it makes a lot of sense to try and create proper separation between the app and game side of the console. One of the things I most liked reading about the Xbox One in the vgleaks information is that system rendering, unlike the case in the Xbox 360, would be separated from game rendering because of the move engines. On the Xbox 360 it always annoyed me how because a game was running, or was demanding to a certain extent, it would also impact the performance of the game's OS whenever I decided I wanted to bring it up. I want a silky smooth OS experience.

But now theres a chance of having a silky smooth OS experience at the expense of game preformance.
 
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Any amount of multitasking is going to necessitate CPU resources, if not GPU resources also, and fast task switching will require RAM as well.

you said that the dedicated hardware he was talking about was the cpu/gpu.

but you're wrong.
 
I am pretty sure, when you're skyping on your Xbone, that you'll probably be looking at the screen.

Example:

1. Snap Skype
2. You are talking to your friend (friend is on the skype screen)
3. Friend asks you how to turn off Xbox with voice
4. (You're looking at the screen) Xbox Off
5. Nothing Happens

Fixed for you.

Like I said. Ms has multiple variables about the user and the sounds.

For what Ms have said, in xbone, for voice commands to work (at least some of them like turning the console off):

- The user has to be facing the camera.
- He has to be speaking.
- He is the one who has to say the command.

Other people in the room can't troll to turn the console off because kinect knows from where the sound is coming from and that it's not from the player.

Sounds coming from the console itself won't bother the console either (assuming it has been calibrated) because kinect receives all the sounds the console is making and cancels them.

Again, Kinect 1.0, on the 360 already does sound cancellation. Once you calibrate it, it listens for each speaker to know how their sound echoes in the room. And the console sends all the sounds to kinect do they can know how to cancel the sound from each speaker.

On a properly calibrated setup and a mildly lousy room, kinect can make the voice more clear than a head set mono microphone.
 
Where the fuck do gems like these come from?

So on the PS4 they might have to include it into the game, using the game's resources while on the Xbox One they could build a companion app that could be snapped and would use the OS resources.

Not at the same time like the xbox one though.

So both consoles reserve similar amounts of memory for OS functions, yet somehow for the PS4 said functions will use the game's resources but for the XB1 it won't, and the PS4 can maybe multitask but it's not really multitasking? Seriously?
 
you said that the dedicated hardware he was talking about was the cpu/gpu.

but you're wrong.

Let me put this extremely simply for you. If you're doing 2 things at once on a computer, they both cant have 100% of any one resource. So, unless the PS4 has unannounced quantum mechanics then they're reserving GPU/CPU for OS functions, and this is a good thing. Nobody wants to switch tasks and have it hang for 5 seconds each time.

Edit: In before party chat has dedicated hardware on PS4
 
One thing the article forgot to mention is that the Hypervisor based approach used in the Xbone is a drag on performance. The Hypervisor in Xbone is a cut-down version of Microsoft's Hyper-V.

From Microsoft's own testing, Hyper-V slows down a system compared to a native OS environment:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc768536%28v=bts.10%29.aspx

The following list summarizes the overhead associated with specific resources when running guest operating systems on Hyper-V virtual machines:

CPU Overhead
The CPU overhead associated with running a guest operating system in a Hyper-V virtual machine was found to range between 9 and 12%. For example, a guest operating system running on a Hyper-V virtual machine typically had available 88-91% of the CPU resources available to an equivalent operating system running on physical hardware.

Memory Overhead
The memory cost associated with running a guest operating system on a Hyper-V virtual machine was observed to be approximately 300 MB for the hypervisor, plus 32 MB for the first GB of RAM allocated to each virtual machine, plus another 8 MB for every additional GB of RAM allocated to each virtual machine. For more information about allocating memory to guest operating systems running on a Hyper-V virtual machine, see the “Optimizing Memory Performance” section in Optimizing Performance on Hyper-V.

Network Overhead
Network latency directly attributable to running a guest operating system in a Hyper-V virtual machine was observed to be less than 1 ms and the guest operating system typically maintained a network output queue length of less than one. For more information about measuring the network output queue length, see the “Measuring Network Performance” section in Measuring Performance on Hyper-V.

Disk Overhead
When using the pass-through disk feature in Hyper-V, disk I/O overhead associated with running a guest operating system in a Hyper-V virtual machine was found to range between 6 and 8 %. For example, a guest operating system running on Hyper-V typically had available 92-94% of the disk I/O available to an equivalent operating system running on physical hardware as measured by the open source disk performance benchmarking tool IOMeter.

---------

Now, the version of Hyper-V used in the Xbone will be cut-down & optimized for the Xbone H/W and it will have better performance than the full version of Hyper-V. However, there is no possible way for Microsoft to make the performance overhead zero. Even if Microsoft gets it down to a few percentage points, that's an overhead that the PC or PS4 don't have.
 
Where the fuck do gems like these come from?





So both consoles reserve similar amounts of memory for OS functions, yet somehow for the PS4 said functions will use the game's resources but for the XB1 it won't, and the PS4 can maybe multitask but it's not really multitasking? Seriously?
There's a difference between suspended background applications and snap multi tasking.
Both consoles offer suspended background states, only the Xbox offers parallel multitasking of two applications.

That is where the battlelog example comes from.
 
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Any amount of multitasking is going to necessitate CPU resources, if not GPU resources also, and fast task switching will require RAM as well.

Yeah but the point is on PS4 you won't be able to run external apps while you are gaming. The only apps running while you play a game will be the video recording and the audio chat, which do not use CPU power. Thus, on PS4 all 8 cores may be available for games.
 
Spin doctor at work. More RAM for games is always better for the developer. Allocating more RAM for the OS is simpler better for the OS developers, not the game developers.
 
Yeah but the point is on PS4 you won't be able to run external apps while you are gaming. The only apps running while you play a game will be the video recording and the audio chat, which do not use CPU power. Thus, on PS4 all 8 cores may be available for games.

i thought it was confirmed that the ps4 uses 6 cores for games with 2 reserved for the os??
 
Yeah but the point is on PS4 you won't be able to run external apps while you are gaming. The only apps running while you play a game will be the video recording and the audio chat, which do not use CPU power. Thus, on PS4 all 8 cores may be available for games.
Ustream. What you people are arguing about are design choices of how many application will be able to be displayed simultaneously, doesnt mean multiple applications wont be running in the background.

For example;

When Windows 8 launched, you could only run 2 WinRT apps side by side but Windows 8.1 increases that number.
 
Spin doctor at work. More RAM for games is always better for the developer. Allocating more RAM for the OS is simpler better for the OS developers, not the game developers.
Yep. I think the main takeaway is that 5GB RAM is stil a lot for games, so the setup isn't terrible for games. And it has the flexibility to be used to expand games in some instances as well as able to be used for other applications.
 
There's a difference between suspended background applications and snap multi tasking.
Both consoles offer suspended background states, only the Xbox offers parallel multitasking of two applications.

That is where the battlelog example comes from.

I'm not sure why (or how) you'd want to do that. And these types of specific applications will require resources. It won't magically pop out of nowhere, unless there's by default a significant chunk of RAM and computing reserved "just in case" which essentially makes no difference between platforms.
 
People can be so shortsighted sometimes.
It's similarly shortsighted to think the only way to do this is through some single, expensive mega-box when much of it can be increasingly offloaded to smaller, cheaper, less obtrusive devices. See Roku Stick and Google Chromecast. Even the TVs themselves are taking on apps more and more. The future of the living room doesn't favor expensive jack-of-all-trades STBs.
 
Where the fuck do gems like these come from?





So both consoles reserve similar amounts of memory for OS functions, yet somehow for the PS4 said functions will use the game's resources but for the XB1 it won't, and the PS4 can maybe multitask but it's not really multitasking? Seriously?
Vita can multitask better than PS4 bro. PS4 has no ga... multitasking.
 
It's similarly shortsighted to think the only way to do this is through some single, expensive mega-box when much of it can be increasingly offloaded to smaller, cheaper, less obtrusive devices. See Roku Stick and Google Chromecast. Even the TVs themselves are taking on apps more and more. The future of the living room doesn't favor expensive jack-of-all-trades STBs.

Call me when the Chromecast can play Halo or TLOU.
 
It's similarly shortsighted to think the only way to do this is through some single, expensive mega-box when much of it can be increasingly offloaded to smaller, cheaper, less obtrusive devices. See Roku Stick and Google Chromecast. Even the TVs themselves are taking on apps more and more. The future of the living room doesn't favor expensive jack-of-all-trades STBs.

I agree. The idea of the X1 being a versatile piece of hardware sounds good. However, with the way other technologies are also becoming more versatile, the X1 is only going to be expensive and redundant.
 
100% of system resources is not realistically possible on either console.

Edit: Even the link in your post says that system resources are used for OS tasks. I'm starting to think you are being intentionally dishonest for some reason or another.

It is obvious that you could never have 100% of system resources available for games; thus, I don't even know why you bring such an argument in the first place.
 
It is obvious that you could never have 100% of system resources available for games; thus, I don't even know why you bring such an argument in the first place.

Oh, I don't know where I would get that from. Oh wait, you've only been trying to spread that narrative for 4 pages now.

You can have as much apps as you want and still devote the 100% of the power to games.

On PS4 there are only a limited number of applications like video recording running during a game and there is dedicated hw for them to not affect game performance.

I never said that. What I said is that there are a limited number of gaming applications that run during a game on PS4, such as video recording and audio chat, and that there is dedicated hw for them so that these specific applications do not use additional CPU power. Regarding memory, if the video is recored to the HDD, no RAM would be used as well.
 
It's PR fluff.
Why is everything a Magazine or an employee of a company says called PR fluff?
Unified memory is better for developers, it remains true with Xbox360, Xbox One and PS4. The memory is a unified pool of 8GB RAM but ~3GB is fenced off for the OS. Every modern entertainment device has an OS, a UI and an application platform. Every RAM in the system cannot be dedicated to just gaming, hence walling off the OS RAM from Game RAM is necessary to prevent memory contention. Developers know they have to work within the constraint of 5GB still unified pool of RAM and the OS remains in its own 3GB unified pool of RAM which ensure smooth operation when switching between games and OS functions.
 
Top Bottom