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Paris Terrorist Attacks, 120+ dead. Do not post hearsay/unsourced/old news.
- Thread starter chadskin
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Yep, we're discovering what the Middle-East has been enduring for decades after ignoring it.
Yesterday 239 people were harmed and 43 dead in Beyrouth. That's not even Afghanistan, Irak or Pakistan, where you have near zero media/political coverage. But as sad it is they are "used" to it and we (Western hyperconnected societies) are slowly discovering how it feels each time there are dozens of dead (including the killer). And more importantly, how it feels to know that other attacks could happen in a lot a places.
About concert, it has been a strategic target for ISIS in the recent months.
"Jihad, it's not only in Syria."
"Grenade, easy to hide, perfect against an army of kufar (those who don't believe)"
You'd figure large groups of those nations/groups would attempt to move on Israel, and then you kind of know what happens next.
Outtrigger888
Member
So just turn away from the problem? Innocent people are getting tortured and being murdered. Haven't we learned anything from history?
Mr_Antimatter
Member
The issue is well, there is no strong government able to control the territory like you had in Italy, Germany, or Japan. Ever since the Ottoman empire was broken up, the only thing holding that section of the world together was the iron fists of various dictators and madmen. Absent them, old rivalries and disputes boil up, and play out often very violently.
Bush style nation building just didn't work, absent tons of US forces, the governments just collapse or cannot maintain control. I honestly don't know if there is anything we could have done to make the outcomes any better with all certainty.
No one is going to invade a nuclear armed state, that's suicide.
I imagine the french police etc. do but it will be a while before that is made public.
Fuck me, it is 6am.
This is me as well. I hate that the discussion so rarely touches on the victims or their experience. I find myself constantly wondering: How many left children behind? How badly did they suffer before the end? What must it have been like being held hostage, waiting to be executed like cattle, knowing it was coming? How many ended up dead due to last minute plans taking them somewhere they hadn't intended, or because they stood at the wrong spot at the concert, etc. etc. What were they working on? Which of them managed to call loved ones before the end? How much did their families depend on them? Were they looking after a sick parent, perhaps? And so on and so on.
I mean, you have to force yourself to confront the horror of it, I think, to do the scale of the tragedy justice, but when you do you find yourself unable to process it.
The tragedy of one murder stretches out to devastate a core of about 10-20 people. It echoes through to about 200 friends and coworkers. Take that and multiply it by roughly 158. The insane damage and loss society suffers is just... it's just incomprehensible.
Literally the only solace I can take at all is that I can't imagine there were any or many child casualties considering the target venues and time of day. Small mercies.
Fuck, that's so depressing and infuriating at the same time. I have always wondered if we'd ever get to a point where huge terrorist kind of attack at an intimate venue like a concert in the west would be a legitimate concern. I can stop wondering now. This is so fucking awful.About concert, it has been a strategic target for ISIS in the recent months.
"Jihad, it's not only in Syria."
"Grenade, easy to hide, perfect against an army of kufar (those who don't believe)"
Hoya Destroyer
Member
Eventually, yes. I honestly think its impossible to change the culture of violence that exists in the Middle East anytime soon. Its at the point now where I just wonder how much of a hit peaceful societies have to take, whilst we chase unrealistic ideals.
Roland_Gunner
Member
So you want us to destroy the infrastructure of a large part of the Middle East? That isn't going to happen for many reasons. My point is that by 2011 $286 billion dollars had been spent in Afghanistan and that didn't end jihadism there. The culture there is too different to compare to what happened in Japan.
http://www.globalhumanitarianassist...gha-Afghanistan-2011-major-resource-flows.pdf
Abinash117
Member
You are not getting to what I am saying. If ISIL is there in Iraq then how are you going to make the country more safer? You really going to think those people care about your western values ? No they don't. They want an state. It is naive to assume they want to listen to anything by anyone besides themselves and they are actively killing people and taking territory to control the country, it would be stupid not to kill them and regain control of the country and make the country safer, (it's called war you have to do that there is no way around it, especially with these guys) because how else are you going to when they are out to kill people and want to, and take over Iraq, Syria, and then other nations?
No stop putting words in my mouth. I clearly said not the matter of want to or not westerners are already there including the US,Britain, and the French . I was also saying you would have to militarily confront them I didn't say a damn thing about me wanting to. If you don't want them there then people have to get their governments out.
Really, when in the hell did I say all of them are educated? Why do you keep doing it is getting really stupid. I said the foreigners in Iraq/Syria are that way; they clearly don't care about western values because they went to join ISIL. It has been documented that western civilians went there.
I said it won't get terrorism and talking about terrorism in general. I was clearly talking about Iraq and Syria and since this killings have to do with ISIS I am referring Iraq and Syria as they are mainly there with the main force.
Do I need to ? No, but I did because I think it is.
Ok, you aren't playing attention I said nothing about Islam fundamentalism to him that comment about that was to you not to him. Maybe you are equalizing Islam fundamentalism, I'm not doing that when I am talking ISIS I'm talking about them nothing else.
Why are you putting words in his mouth?
Such as?
Yep, we're discovering what the Middle-East has been enduring for decades after ignoring it.
Yesterday 239 people were harmed and 43 dead in Beyrouth. That's not even Afghanistan, Irak or Pakistan, where you have near zero media/political coverage. But as sad it is they are "used" to it and we (Western hyperconnected societies) are slowly discovering how it feels each time there are dozens of dead (including the killer). And more importantly, how it feels to know that other attacks could happen in a lot a places.
About concert, it has been a strategic target for ISIS in the recent months.
"Jihad, it's not only in Syria."
"Grenade, easy to hide, perfect against an army of kufar (those who don't believe)"
Oh God, people has to watch for grenades when going in concerts... worrying and depressing.
Easy Breezy
Neo Member
Terrible news to wake up to.
RIP to all of the victims.
RIP to all of the victims.
I'm curious how we are measuring "most peaceful era", are we talking current conflicts, homicides, etc?
Lord Thrappleper The 49th
Member
The only thing that'll fix the middle east is another empire to hold it all together. History has just shown that, if left to their own devices, they'll just destroy themselves and harm the innocent.
So, unless we want to formally create the UN Empire, the best thing we can do is completely and utterly leave that entire region alone, and just try to help any refugees as best we can.
Probably in terms of western civilisation. We all live happily knowing a rival nation will not invade us anytime soon, nor are we going to be forced to go fight a war we want no part of.
hurricanes
Member
Hopefully, I can't not find the post anymore as it was a screen cap, but I think this report by US homeland security https://homeland.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/HHSC-October-Terror-Threat-Snapshot1.pdf is similar to the list.
Human death and suffering, poverty, health, etc are all better today than at any time in recorded history.
It would probably be a lot easier if western governments hadnt been fucking up the region for oil and arms deals for the military industrial complex for decades. Hawks wonder why they get struck by lightning when they fly into a storm.
Hoya Destroyer
Member
That we can make the Middle East a peaceful and democratic region.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I know this... I can see your point.
But you seem to imply being Westernized means you'll automatically respond positively to Western occupation. I'm not sure, is that true?
I do think there are differences in the Japanese cultural character compared with Muslim societies. The Japanese attitude is to find order in the group and accept authority, while the Islamic character is to righteously struggle.
Hell, even American values would probably ensure that an occupier of America would never attain perfect control... "Don't tread on me" and self-defense mythology, etc. Underground militia groups would struggle without end against occupation.
Ideas dictate behaviour, and different societies cherish different ideas.
Ah. It's a noble cause but I would have to agree, basically seems to be impossible.
But that doesnt fit the narrative on my TV!
Military targets are still number 1 (an attack was stopped before it happened 2 weeks ago in France), but places where it is possible for them to attack at the lot of people without any police response for a relatively long time in that case is why they promote this.
Actually there is also the COP21 Summit in Paris in a few weeks. Lots of people in the streets and lots of important people coming in France. I read an article yesterday about how serious was the security measures. Now that the state of emergency is here...
Outtrigger888
Member
So not even try? Just let it get even worse, while we sit here pretending that this shit isn't going on to innocent families in that region? I get it I want to feel safe in life, I'm a father of 2 children who I want to keep safe beyond anything in the world. But it doesn't stop me from thinking about the other fathers in those countries who feel the same way.
The middle east seemed better off with the Ottomon Empire. Even now, Turkey is the most "civilized" Islamic country, though it is technically a European country. Why can't we just steamroll ISIS, though? If Nazism and Facism died, why can't Islamic extremism?
I'm not saying we turn and leave. In fact I'm saying I suspect things would get a lot worse if we did.
What I am saying though is there is no easy solution. Half the problem is the Western World has more or less picked a side in a Religious Civil War. So looking at it that way its only logical the other side of the Civil War views the west as an enemy.
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
The problem with Europe in general is that theg allow extremist Islamic political parties to find santuary away from their countries. These parties are the source of destruction you see in the Middle East that's why they ran away to take advantage of the freedom in Europe and spread their poisonous in Europe and the Middle East.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Hmm, I'm not sure about that. I don't think the US would turn into Afghanistan if it were colonized for a few years. The population is educated and the country is industrialized, it can create wealth. Much like Japan in 1945 was industrialized and educated, it's not surprising that in 1960 it was still industrialized and educated. Afghanistan was never anything like that though, and it's silly to think that if we stay there long enough they'll become just like us (responding to Goldeneye). It also isn't true that Japan pulled some miracle.
Nazism isn't dead, there's just not a central government operating under it.
Which is why ISIS can't be killed, it's a backwards ideology, when you try to kill them they meld back in with the populace and lie low and teach it onward until we leave.
CadetMahoney
Member
pretty much, ppl say "its impossible to change the culture of violence that exists in the Middle East" like it's in a vaccuum where countries weren't destabilized, and the west is still looking to take over Syria and Iran, in the name of democracy and freedom of course. It's worked well so far.
Anti Jewish sentiment and authoritarianism are still doing brisk business.
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
Like minds, better verbalization of my own thoughts. Heh, your post about your grandfather and his penmenship, I think you said he was an engineer really stuck with me. It would be cool to see the drawings you mentioned in I forget which thread. Reminded me of James Joyce.
On topic, I don't think I will be able to shake off the pics of people covered in linen.
True. I can recommend this book here which provides evidence that supports this claim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature
RedNalgene
Member
Does anyone know if there will be any solidarity events in NYC? It's important to show the world we stand with Paris, id love to participate.
I'm sorry, didn't the west fuck Germany? Bombed it into dust, them gave most of Prussian possessions to Poland? not only that, broke Germany into two, and persecuted the Nazis?
Dropped TWO nuclear bombs into Japan, fucked with the Japanese religion of 'The emperor is the descendant of the Sun God' and dictated the constitution of 'Japan is not allowed to declare war'?
Haha, there is your answer. Thank you, your posts sum up everything that "we" did wrong but lots of people still believe that was the right thing to do. Building a western vision of "democracy" with war, territory occupation and making grub local politics/societies does not work. In fact it kills the idea of democracy and peace.
I apologise. This wasn't the thread to be lashing out at it all like that. But it's just hard not to have that reaction, especially with Hollande now possibly marching us (humans) into another possibly endless war with all its probable innocent civilian casualties... on top of so many other things... I'm just saddened for all of us.
Tomorrow in Union Square apparently, not sure at what time.
Edit ok, 2pm. Apparently there's people there now.
Care to explain? Last I check Isis is not a political.
If you are referring to Hezbollah, Muslim Brotherhood, and Hamas, those groups are from earlier time and have limited objectives.
I don't know what to say, really. I don't know what I feel worse, the fact that this happened in Paris or the fact this kind of things happen everyday in other parts of the world and I don't even know that it happen.
I hope that every family affect of this attacks can find peace. And fuck terrorist and extremist.
I hope that every family affect of this attacks can find peace. And fuck terrorist and extremist.
GoldenEye 007
Member
I mean the only thing I can think of is more forces on the ground. And not propping up corrupt leaders. And not facilitating corrupt contracting for infrastructure, etc. And addressing issues brought on at the end of WWI and beyond. But you're right. Not having a traditional centralized government certainly presents more of a challenge.
As for your final point, you're right. Not smart invading a nuclear armed state like Isreal. But remember that if there is no centralized government or specific territory, what is there to lose? Isreal can't nuke itself. And with there being no centralization, there is really nothing to nuke.
I don't want anything like a total war. I don't want that at all. However, I'm simply at a loss of how to solve this issue. So yeah, one of the things I'm discussin involves total war with an entire region to systematically attempt to take these people down by force. Then after a war has ended, focus on a long-term, sustained and deliberate government, infrastructure, economic, and education building process. Would cost many lives and a lot of money. Something I can't comprehend nor want to.
But of course, I do not think the political will exists for something like that. Nor will it absent more attacks like these or in general even larger ones against western targets.
William Gibson ‏@GreatDismal 27m27 minutes ago
The asymmetry, in asymmetrical warfare, is that the little guy can only really damage the big guy by getting him angry enough to self-injure
https://twitter.com/GreatDismal/status/665398411944976384
The asymmetry, in asymmetrical warfare, is that the little guy can only really damage the big guy by getting him angry enough to self-injure
https://twitter.com/GreatDismal/status/665398411944976384
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