rnlval
Member
For Intel Core i7-7820X "Skylake X" 8 cores/16 threads with X299 chipset-based PC, a new DX12U graphics card is needed.
Skylake X has AVX-256 v2 and AVX-512 hardware.
Pc is a strong platform, because it doesnt need next gen hardware
Skylake X has AVX-256 v2 and AVX-512 hardware.
kingfey
Banned
Finally. Someone understood this post.
This might change some games, to good or to worse.
OS changes like this might have impact on the pc land. Considering most pc games need DX to play them.
rnlval
Member
In the past, DX10 to DX11 transition involves adding additional geometry stages into the legacy DX10 pipeline.
DX12U's geometry pipeline removes the legacy DX10/DX11/DX12 geometry pipeline. Programmers can use DX12 with some DX12U's pixel path improvements e.g. VRS.
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kingfey
Banned
Would that affect old games? As in those games, who specifically needs those type of drivers.
rnlval
Member
Old PC games stay at their DirectX version e.g. DX11 game uses DX11 runtime middleware and DX11 level hardware.
In general, the DX11 game should work on DX12/DX12U class hardware since its superset of DX11. Incompatibility usually comes from DRM.
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rnlval
Member
Valve's Proton (DirectX clone) continues DirectX requirement into Linux land.
ethomaz
Banned
Let's see if in more several or so years it will run new games…
PC mininum are still in 201x hardware.
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Snake29
Banned
Kenpachii
Member
There is no real normal however upgrading for gaming from a 1600 > 1700 which yields you nothing performance wise isn't much useful. Even when he could have all the reasons for why he upgraded, i would not call it normal behavior for your general pc population even on higher end.
People tend to upgrade for performance gains in gaming ( talking about gaming here )
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Dlacy13g
Member
Lolz....you only need graphics card changes. Thanks for the good laugh.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
Agreed. The mere act of such troubleshooting supports its simply not a platform for those who only want to focus on gaming, its hard to market this to something and be like "prepare for google, reddit and toms hardware", most just want to game.
I agree with you both. Its not saying it can't take a few seconds to turn off or on something and be on your way, simply that is the best case scenario and imho shouldn't be. These billion dollar publishers know what they are doing when they have such ports rushed out the door and allow the PC community to become their Q&A.
They would NEVER fucking do that shit under Sony or MS, yet on PC they are like "you figure it out, thanks for the money".
So I agree fast fixes exist, but I agree too that it simply shouldn't be that way on PC and publishers count on that simply to do less work if the issues on a game can just be blamed on a set up or something. No one is having a PS4 or a XONE game crash a dozen times and simply asking other PS or XB users what they are doing to have the game work... they are sending crash reports and asking for refunds, spamming the developer/publisher etc. Notice they are not out here chaning a shit load of settings to fix this, they are going straight to the developer because those platforms simply don't have some deep history of needing to alter a shitload of settings to get a game to turn on or something, so it puts that pressure on publishers to actually truly optimize vs leaning on the community to do it for them.
Md Ray
Member
These are current-gen games. Flight Sim as well, because it's a DX11 back-end game.
What will be your excuse when AAA devs will exclusively be developing for DX12U (DX12_2 feature level) programming model?
4A Games are already moving in that direction and many others will be following suit, 4A just happens to be the first to announce it early. Your RX 570 WON'T work in their next game and in games that'll impose DX12U hardware as minimum.
RX 6000/RTX 20, RTX 30, and the upcoming GPUs are the only hardware to support DX12U (DX12_2 feature level). This means, yup, even RX 5000 and GTX 16 series are outdated and will no longer work.
Don't worry though, old titles and indie games will still run on these GPUs as they will still be using DX11/12 APIs. You just won't be able to run these big AAA next-gen titles like the ones from Rockstar, 4A Games, The Coalition (Gears devs), etc.
I just tried to run RDR2, Gears 5 on my older ATI Radeon HD 5000 GPU the other day and it straight up won't even boot because they do not support DX12 or Vulkan.
This is what's going to happen to these RX 500s and GTXs once game devs move away from PS4/XB1's DX12 (12_0) programming model.
Bottom line is, what you've written in the title is false. PC does require next-gen hardware.
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kingfey
Banned
Stop using that publisher as an excuse.
The card will reach its limit, due to its age. Then you can upgrade when the time comes.
Until then, gaming on this card will exist. Dx12 will take 3-5 years for AAA games. How long do you think they would need to make these games?
You still have other cards, which are very cheap. The entire graphic cards is expensive now, due to scalpers and miners. These ass holes made the price of these cards even more expensive. Just what like what is happening to consoles. The ps5 cost $1k to get it now, outside of regular markets, due to these scalpers.
Like I said in previous posts. You will only need external systems to improve your games. You wont be locked down from it
There won't be a new system, which doesn't allow you to play these games.
Modern games will need modern technology. But as long as they use the 2000 old OS windows. it won't change anything. Unless DX12 stops your old games from working forever.
Md Ray
Member
That's not how it works.
Not just 4A, but any dev that uses DX12U (12_2) and imposes GPU that supports 12_2 feature level as a minimum requirement (which will happen once PS4/XB1 support is dropped), then say goodbye to GTX, RX 500-based GPUs if you want to play these games. Enjoy indie games though.
You must be new to PC gaming.
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kingfey
Banned
How long will that take?
Would you still think, publishers won't be using dx11?
When the time for every devs start using dx12, the current cards will be way cheaper. Rx3090 would be cheaper in 3 years. It will be the price of rx570, and gt1060.
The only big draw for these cards, is their video ram. That is what will stop these guys in the future. Once games requires 8gb video ram as a minimum requirements. These cards will be obsolete.
There are setting which I can't currently access, due to the video ram being too low. Doom eternal nightmare mode is impossible for my card.
Guilty_AI
Member
...are you just ignoring what i wrote before? I gave real life examples of games that don't work as they should on console, some of them even exclusive IPs from the console manufacturer.
No "figure it out" either, just "heres your broken game, thanks for the money"
Rich words considering how much refund policies consoles suck.
Also, you talk as if that doesn't happen on pc. Even middling issues within the game, like lack of proper control support or online requirements, can cause a wave of bad reviews, refunds and complaints.
Which also reminds me, most consoles don't allow for user reviews either, so no direct venue that warns me of potential problems with a game right on the store page.
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Md Ray
Member
Very soon. To be precise, as soon as games aren't made for PS4/XB1 anymore.
Why would any major AAA dev use outdated DX11 going forward? Companies like Rockstar, Remedy Ent. (Control, Quantum Break devs), Coalition already ditched DX11 years ago. Maybe indie devs will... Even they would be moving towards the DX12/VK code path when they develop for PS5/XSX/PC.
So you agree PC needs next-gen hardware?
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kingfey
Banned
Let's put graphic upgrade aside.
Do you think pc would have the same issues as console?
The main problem for consoles, is their OS upgrade, which renders the next iteration of console unable to play the current console games, unless they directly support the current console, ps4 to ps5.
Ps3 OS made it hard for ps4 to play ps3 games. With them also not getting ps1-ps2 os support, it made those games get lost on time. Same thing for xbox and Nintendo.
Pc doesn't have that issue. Yes, you need to upgrade your hardwares, but pc won't fundamentally get upgraded, unless MS screws with windows OS. As long as that windows OS supports old windows, current pc hardwares would be able to play past pc games. Same for the new cards.
That is the reason why pc won't get an upgrade. Its also the reason why we don't have pc2. You need a new OS for that. Games would need to ditch Windows, and go exclusive to macos, and Linux is. Then we will get the true next gen upgrade.
These graphic upgrades are like mid console upgrade. Like ps4 to ps4 pro. They run the same game. Ps4 can't run cyberpunk2077, but ps4 pro can run it. Both have the same OS.
kingfey
Banned
Its on my point on the top. They would need graphic changes. But not next gen hardware.
That would require, complete OS upgrade. Like ps4 to ps5. Microsoft would need to step up its windows os upgrade. As that effects pc gaming.
As long as MS doesn't do shit to windows, Pc gaming won't need next gen upgrade.
Your point is Ps4 to Ps4 pro. That is what graphic cards are doing. The ps4 pro has better graphics than ps4. And does what ps4 can't do. That is what pc gaming is. And its been stuck that way, since windows was made.
They would need to do ps3 OS leap to ps4 os leap for next gen upgrade.
Werewolfgrandma
Banned
Holy shit this is one of the saddest threads I've seen here.
Edit
And I don't mean the op.
Edit
And I don't mean the op.
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Md Ray
Member
Forza Motorsport 6, a 2016 game doesn't even boot on an HD 5770/6770 whereas Fortnite which was released a year later (2017) boots up and even runs just fine on it.
Why do you think that is?
Before you say it's "graphic changes" or "forza 6 is more demanding" or "VRAM" it's not. They're about equal in terms of graphical and VRAM load on GPUs i.e. just like Fortnite runs at 60+fps, Motorsport 6 is also capable of running at 60+fps on newer GPUs.
But Fortnite runs on it, Forza 6 doesn't even boot up... Why?
What would you do to make Forza 6 run on your PC if you have like an HD 5770/6770 GPU?
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kingfey
Banned
How to play forza 6 with an integrated graphics card
I have an intel integrated HD graphics card in my laptop and I'd quite like to play forza apex, I'm used to playing games at low settings at like 420p or whatever but forza blocks me from even starting the game, it said i have an unsupported graphics card which is understandable so i press page...
forums.tomshardware.com
Its due to how MS store handles the game. You cant lower the video settings for the game. You have to meet the actual requirements. While fortnite, does let you modify the game.
I had a laptop with that settings, and witcher 3 was hard with hud. Had to remove the hud, to play the game.
The resources are getting bigger and bigger. Games these days, have more extensive resources than old games. You need better hardwares to meet them. That is the nature of technology. Old stuff can't handle new stuff.
Does that mean, it will impact pc gaming? Not really. The devices you play have to be constantly upgraded, to meet the demand of gaming these days. But the core pc would be unchanged.
Tvs are the same. They do the same job they do, since they were released. Its just now they do it very efficient. Then you get tv boxes, which changes the tiny box cable you had in the 90s, 20ths. From vhs, to cd, to DVD, to digital. You can play games on your old TV, but you can't play movies on a vhs tape box.
As long as pc core remains, it won't need a change.
Md Ray
Member
Uh, no. It's because it's a DX12 title requiring a next-gen DX12 hardware. It literally says "only runs on DX12" "there's no way around this" in that Tom's HW post that you linked. Do you even read?How to play forza 6 with an integrated graphics card
I have an intel integrated HD graphics card in my laptop and I'd quite like to play forza apex, I'm used to playing games at low settings at like 420p or whatever but forza blocks me from even starting the game, it said i have an unsupported graphics card which is understandable so i press page...
Its due to how MS store handles the game. You cant lower the video settings for the game. You have to meet the actual requirements. While fortnite, does let you modify the game.
I had a laptop with that settings, and witcher 3 was hard with hud. Had to remove the hud, to play the game.
The resources are getting bigger and bigger. Games these days, have more extensive resources than old games. You need better hardwares to meet them. That is the nature of technology. Old stuff can't handle new stuff.
Does that mean, it will impact pc gaming? Not really. The devices you play have to be constantly upgraded, to meet the demand of gaming these days. But the core pc would be unchanged.
Tvs are the same. They do the same job they do, since they were released. Its just now they do it very efficient. Then you get tv boxes, which changes the tiny box cable you had in the 90s, 20ths. From vhs, to cd, to DVD, to digital. You can play games on your old TV, but you can't play movies on a vhs tape box.
As long as pc core remains, it won't need a change.
So in order to run Forza 6 what would you do?
You would upgrade to next-gen hardware that supports DX12. It doesn't matter if you upgrade the OS to Win 10, it still required the hardware for it.
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Md Ray
Member
You see? PC needs next-gen hardware after all.
It's not like Forza 6 is more demanding than Fortnite or something, heck there are even more demanding games than Forza 6 that run on HD 6770 like BF5, simply because they're using DX11 API. It's not just "graphic changes" that stop older GPUs from running newer games, it depends on the feature sets, functionality and the programming model these GPUs support too.
It's not like Forza 6 is more demanding than Fortnite or something, heck there are even more demanding games than Forza 6 that run on HD 6770 like BF5, simply because they're using DX11 API. It's not just "graphic changes" that stop older GPUs from running newer games, it depends on the feature sets, functionality and the programming model these GPUs support too.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Raytracing, then DirectStorage (toss your whole PC), RTX I/O, etc. It's actually changing much faster than what you think, but you can always play in ultra-low 1080p.
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rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
But you had to upgrade it from some older CPU and it was enough for 9 years because the weak PS4/XBO CPUs. OP said you never have to change CPU, or RAM, or hard drives...
Werewolfgrandma
Banned
You shits know what op means but are just being semantic douches.
roosnam1980
Gold Member
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DevilMayFlyForAWhiteGuy
Member
Dream-Knife
Banned
RT still isn't standard. Direct storage is coming to windows, and is card agnostic.
The reality is you guys overstate how upgrade cycles need to happen. If you followed that logic then the ps5 and Xbox are already obsolete since they use zen 2.
20 years ago a card would come out every 1-2 years that obliterated the previous one. Now a days most people are using cards that are 5+ years old.
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Knightime_X
Member
lol good luck getting newer games to run at 4k 60+ fps with your 4gb of ram, GTX 560, and Intel i5 2300
rnlval
Member
FYI, PS4/XB1's DX12 has Feature Level 12_0 hardware as per Hawaii (PS4's cut down Hawaii with 20 CU scale) or Bonaire (XBO) GCN.
DX12U (RDNA 2/Turing RTX/Ampere, DX12 Feature Level 12_2) enables the game programmer to ditched the legacy (DX10/DX11/DX12) geometry pipeline with the so-called Next Generation Geometry Pipeline (NGGP).
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The Pleasure
Gold Member
Speak for yourself. I'm gonna play quake 3 arena offline.
rnlval
Member
AMD didn't backport DX12 driver support for DX11 HD 6770.
NVIDIA backported DX12 support for DX11 Fermi GPUs i.e. DirectX12 Feature Level 11_0. Programmers can target minimum requirements as DirectX12 Feature Level 11_0, Feature Level 11_1, Feature Level 12_0, and Feature Level 12_1.
DirectX12 Ultimate is known as DirectX12 Feature Level 12_2 and it's a major update.
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Md Ray
Member
I actually noticed it was 12_0 right after posting it, but forgot to edit. Corrected now.
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rnlval
Member
1. BVH accelerated structure RT is a standard approach for hardware-accelerated raytracing. PS5 GPU supports BVH accelerated structure RT via RDNA 2's hardware-accelerated raytracing.
2. Zen 2 CPU supports AVX v2 via native 256-bit hardware. Zen 3's AVX v2 is slightly faster.
rnlval
Member
PS4's AMD Jaguar CPU at 1.6 Ghz doesn't have the compute power to emulate PS3's SPU at 3.2 Ghz at the required real-time performance.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
All reasons why you need certain hardware to fucking games.
You literally just debunked your own thread in terms of "doesn't need next gen hardware". That simply isn't true and has never been true. A requirement of certain hardware has always been a thing in PC gaming, you can't just rock a HD 5770 and play ALL GAMES, thats not how any of this shit works.
Why even keep telling us about shit from 2016, 3 years after the gen started? Fucking tell us about some bomb set up done in 2013 that can play all titles right now and can play all titles on next gen until PS6/ Next Box and you can make a point. I don't even think what I'm saying is too much as shit, your thread is literally "it doesn't need next gen hardware", then it shouldn't have an issue pushing 2 generations bud.
This isn't magic, you don't just build a PC for $8k and then it does magic for 2 decades or something. A publisher can easily just be like "we are only using GDDR6 now" annnnnnnnd your fucked. Building something expensive today doesn't mean any fucking publisher has an obligation to nerf their games to keep supporting your system based on what YOU PAID for your system, they will continue to support new hardware to compete, thus one can't build a future proof system as over time new features will come out and what ever Sony and MS decide they want in their next gen systems, becomes the minimum and you simply get locked out of that when the new generation comes. So as someone that owns many different builds for many different reasons, I've never seeked to future proof shit as its simply a myth that makes no sense and ignores reality.
This. It literally happens every generation so I'm not sure where anyone is getting that they don't need next gen hardware to play those titles over time.
I agree its changing faster, but not enough to toss your whole PC as Raytracing isn't really a standard thing yet lol But I get your point, its changing fast enough that what someone started with in 2013 as a PC, simply won't be able to play new releases thru all of next gen without upgrades. Even shit like GDDR6 they'd already be behind on before this gen even started.
^^^ I'm saying! Where the fuck is this "doesn't need next gen hardware" coming from if clearly upgrades are made, be like "I only had to change" or "I only had to upgrade" OHHHHH Sooooooooo you DO "need" that hardware or?
Folks out here making it sound like they fucking using 7600gtx on all games today with no issue and zero upgrades etc. lol
kingfey
Banned
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
You debunked your thread in the OP itself, bravo sir.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
Sir, its still incorrect as you can't just fucking run a dual core for life.
You can't just run the same ram....for life.
Sooooo I don't know where this fucking myth comes from, but you can't future proof a PC and be like "just need to change da GPUz".
Its simply false. You keep goal post moving and ignore all logic to force this, yet can't really answer who the fuck is out here playing ALL NEXT GEN GAMES, with a system that ONLY FUCKING HAD GPU changes.
So someone out here has a PC from 1995, where ONLY the GPU was changed? Ignores motherboard, ignores CPU bottleneck, ignores PCI express, ignores ram requirements etc. This is ignorance at its finest.
So no sir, you can't just have a PC and JUST change the GPU and think thats all that is needed to continue to play new games, that is simply something I hear from people who have not gamed on PC that long, as someone that literally used to build theses for a living and still builds for fun, you literally need to upgrade many things from gen to gen to play the newest games and many users have already stated. I'm not saying someone needs to upgrade all the time, I'm saying they need to still meet that requirement that changes every generation to play the newest games. New games simply do not have the same minimum specs for life, I have no clue who the fuck is even telling you this to even argue only a GPU is needed to change, as if nothing else changes over a generation.
You couldn't even get a 2013 high end PC, to play all next gen titles coming out without a few upgrades, you'd be lucky if JUST the GPU was needed, but because of different ram types, m.2 drives and many more, you are not simply going to see the next gen of game requirements, simply a different gpu, very unlikely sir.
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kingfey
Banned
Where is the debunk?
The graphic card, doesnt change the PC gaming. It allows you to play whatever new to PC. But it doesnt really affect your ability to past PC games, like consoles.
Graphic cards are like mid gen consoles. With games being highly demanding, You will need stronger consoles. Its while Pro and 1X exist. Not to mention, consoles benefit massively from the games being designed for them. Its how base ps4, and base xbox can run Valhalla and RE8, without needing strong graphic card like pc. Pc on other hand, doesnt have that luxary.
Until PC gets a change, which makes 2018 games and older impossible to play or have a hard time playing it, then it wont get next gen upgrade. It needs Massive overhaul for the OS part. Current windows allows you to play windows xp games, because of that compatibility.
kingfey
Banned
Simple question. What do PC games use, if you want to play a game? What do they need to run, in the first place, so you can sit down and play.
Is it a hardware, or A windows?
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
And you can play old console games on old consoles...
PCs require some upgrades here and there, and many times they aren't cheap. I love my gaming PCs but it's a bit silly to compare this aspect to consoles..
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
This.
You need a new console to play new console games.
You need new PC parts to play newer PC games WHEN THE MINIMUM REQUIREMNETS CHANGE.
Upgrades exist for both inevitably. I have no fucking clue who told this person JUST a GPU can be changed and they can use the same PC for life or something and play all new games going forward.
kingfey
Banned
The point of this post is, CAN YOU PLAY OLD GAMES, ON CURRENT SYSTEMS? Consoles had generation of upgrades. All on the OS part. PC didnt get that. Just windows upgrades, while supporting its old games. Let me Know when PS5 can play PS2 games like how pc does.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Especially since we will likely see SSD requirements surge.
We did have a bit of a lull in the need to upgrade PCs due to last gens somewhat meager specs but w/ decent CPUs / GPUs and the introduction of nVME into the console landscape upgrade season is upon us once again.
rofif
Banned
obviously You can play ps4 games on ps5 and ps2 games on ps2.
But nobody takes your old ps1,ps2,ps3 away after new gen comes out. If You REALLY want to replay these old games and don't want to get remakes/remasters... you can always hook it up and play.
And no - the argument - oh but your old ps1 can break over time does not apply... your pc can break too and new parts often introduce compatibility issues with old games.
First of all - I have no disc drive to play all my old pc games. 2nd - you think most of these old dos or win95 games just work? Getting need for speed 3 to run is a bitch for example.
It's not all sunshines.
Your theory is correct but only in principle