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PC Racing Sims

Arucardo

Member
I don't understand. Did he say that FM4, GT5 and iRacing were all crap?

And what are you guessing with regards to rF2?

There was nothing about rF2 and he said FM4 and GT5 "feel" wrong (also, that the cars sound wrong in GT5). iRacing was boring in his opinion.

It wasn't anything to take seriously really, I was bothered with them showing him using a G27 at times when playing Forza though, lol. Also, I think I didn't see him change gears even once so he probably had gears on automatic in the games.
 

Shaneus

Member
Does he mention a game he *does* prefer, though?

But to be honest, I wouldn't trust a motoring journalist/presenter with opinions on driving games. The only opinions I trust (that aren't dedicated sim/gamers) are drivers where they've dropped them in a rig as an exhibition at a track day or something. TV presenters tend to come off as being more biased one way or the other, either "argh computers will never be as good as the real thing" or "lolz PS3 is the best because it's the most popular and I have one".

And after seeing ISR get it wrong on a few occasions (F1 2012 anyone?) I think the only outlet I genuinely trust as far as opinion goes is VVV (and not to blow smoke up anyone's arse, either). Just the right combination of sim racer and gamer.
 

TJP

Member
Edit: Beaten by Big Takeover!

Tiff Needell (I forgot to add his name to my post) tested quite a number of sims starting with Forza 4 and ending with the 'fun title' Crash Time 4. iRacing, Simraceway, GT5, Dirt 3 and F1 2011 were all tested using a Fanatec or G27 wheel and in a racing cockpit with one costing £11,000 - the GT Series Seat used when testing iRacing and Simraceway. The top 3 games in his opinion were:
Dirt 3 (rally rally cross & gymkhana, rich graphics and sounds are spot on. Good for serious racing or mucking about) , Crash Time 4 (made him laugh more than any other game) and F1 2011 (brilliant at capturing all the elements of a GP)
.

Other bits and pieces: Tiff found Simraceway more realistic than iRacing, the 458 in FM4 was nothing like the real car he drove and GT5's handling as numb as Forza but felt a better as the car dived under braking (weight transfer) providing a little more realism. Naturally Tiff also made a comment about the engine noise being less than accurate.

Make of that what you will - I'm happy to play them all!
 

TJP

Member
But to be honest, I wouldn't trust a motoring journalist/presenter with opinions on driving games. The only opinions I trust (that aren't dedicated sim/gamers) are drivers where they've dropped them in a rig as an exhibition at a track day or something. TV presenters tend to come off as being more biased one way or the other, either "argh computers will never be as good as the real thing" or "lolz PS3 is the best because it's the most popular and I have one".
Tiff isn't a guy with a Uni degree in journalism who just happens to drive cars and write about them for a living - he made a living from racing then co-hosting Top Gear before moving onto 5th Gear. His autobiography is a decent read too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiff_Needell
 

Shaneus

Member
Yeah, I knew who Tiff was, but I guess I was more thinking of the fact that their opinion is going to be biased toward the audience than anything else. The audience being a casual Forza/GT-type crowd rather than an rFactor/SimBin-type crowd.

But I thought those answers were troll ones... can't believe he's serious on all three counts (save for F1 2011... I can see where he's coming from with that). I wonder if this was filmed prior to 2012 coming out? ;)
 
Dirt 3 in 1st?

Oh brother... It's not even as good as Dirt 2.
Once I accepted that Dirt is not about proper rallying anymore, I found Dirt 3 to be by far the most fun compared to 1 and 2. It has better physics (I particularly enjoyed the exaggerated setup for gymkhana) and far better presentation.

It's the most pure fun driving game I've played since... NFS Underground.
 

leca

Member
Once I accepted that Dirt is not about proper rallying anymore, I found Dirt 3 to be by far the most fun compared to 1 and 2. It has better physics (I particularly enjoyed the exaggerated setup for gymkhana) and far better presentation.

It's the most pure fun driving game I've played since... NFS Underground.

Playing Dirt 3 with a wheel by chance? I'm keen to give it a whirl :)
 
Yeah, a Driving Force Pro. Like WRC3, it's not optimised for large rotation wheels (cockpit view is useless), but there's enough settings to play with (linearity, saturation) to get it feeling alright from hood cam. And unlike WRC3, it actually has some feedback that gives you some clue as to what kind of surface you're driving on. Don't expect 'sim' quality FFB though.
 

TJP

Member
But I thought those answers were troll ones... can't believe he's serious on all three counts (save for F1 2011... I can see where he's coming from with that). I wonder if this was filmed prior to 2012 coming out? ;)
Troll? Perhaps Tiff went with the games he found more interesting and fun to play as he found no game as good as the real thing.

And before I forget...have you bought GSC yet?
 

paskowitz

Member
Yeah... I am not exactly going to take Tiffs opinion seriously. DiRT 3? Ok...

Also I really do not like SRW or iRacing. I find both to be overly twitchy. But hell what do I know.
 

amar212

Member
Apparently Tiff was using automatic gears and assists, so no real story there.

If you want a bit different perspective, here it is:

My friend who is professional race driver (Croatian Rally vice-champion, avid car tester, circuit racer, he even officially competed on Corsica WRC in 2006) has been to my place last week and I presented him with CSRE/CSPV2 setup and few selected games.

In order to prevent flamewar and dissolving the point I will skip his opinion of GT5 and Forza, it is not important right now. His game of choice, where he spend 2 hours playing the same car on the same track over-and-over again while other friend and I was sitting behind the rig, smoking and enjoying both whiskey and his drive was... you will never guess. Ferrari Racing Legends.

Imagine that.

He was completely oversaturated with feel of vehicle, track, bumps, suspensions and tyres. First he drove 512BB, than F430 and finally he settled with F40 which he ripped over Donnington for almost 2 hours, catching AI on Hard and fighting with the torque, braking and tyres.

I am really happy about his opinion because it another claim for my book where I can't stop talking about FRL and how deeply great that game is from driving/FFB perspective.
 

TJP

Member
I read your most recent post on the pCARS forums about FRL, seems like you're really enjoying the game. A friend thought FRL was good but felt the DLC for Shift was as good so he sold his copy.

I'd be interested to read what a professional thought of quite a few sims, pCARS included!
 

_machine

Member
3. 1987 Toyota MR2
Ooh, I'm kinda jealous as I've always liked the MR2. Fiero's pretty cool, never seen em live though.

The reason I asked is because most people that I know who drive a car with an auto box never got into using the H-shifter even after using the paddles or sequential for a long time.
 

Arucardo

Member
Apparently Tiff was using automatic gears and assists, so no real story there.

If you want a bit different perspective, here it is:

My friend who is professional race driver (Croatian Rally vice-champion, avid car tester, circuit racer, he even officially competed on Corsica WRC in 2006) has been to my place last week and I presented him with CSRE/CSPV2 setup and few selected games.

In order to prevent flamewar and dissolving the point I will skip his opinion of GT5 and Forza, it is not important right now. His game of choice, where he spend 2 hours playing the same car on the same track over-and-over again while other friend and I was sitting behind the rig, smoking and enjoying both whiskey and his drive was... you will never guess. Ferrari Racing Legends.

Imagine that.

He was completely oversaturated with feel of vehicle, track, bumps, suspensions and tyres. First he drove 512BB, than F430 and finally he settled with F40 which he ripped over Donnington for almost 2 hours, catching AI on Hard and fighting with the torque, braking and tyres.

I am really happy about his opinion because it another claim for my book where I can't stop talking about FRL and how deeply great that game is from driving/FFB perspective.

You're such a shill for that game ;)
just kidding

I'd love to try it out, did they ever release the pc version?
 

amar212

Member

That pre-order link is not valid, game is not out for PC anywhere yet and there is no single info when or will it ever be available. That particular "official" order has driven many people nuts at WMD forums, because many of them *purchased* FRL through that link, but since game is not being released they've pretty pissed ATM.

I'm curious, though. What other games did he try? rF2? GSC2012? Burnout Paradise? Outrun 2? WRC3?

GT5, Forza 4, F12012 and FRL in this session at my place. I am still waiting for my PC, so no PC games were booted, I will call him again once I establish a rig and install pCARS, iRacing, rFactor 2, NKP and GSC.

He was also pleasantly surprised with F12012, I set him to play Kimi Raikkonen Challenge (Spa race) and he was having a blast. Very positive reactions, he acknowledges it is nowehere close to be called a open-wheel simulation due to absence of feel of suspensions and shocks of track on the wheel (he says how even the most perfect tracks are crazy bumped IRL - which was one of the main reasons he liked FRL that much), but he says it delivers almost unbelievable level of immersion into race.

However, he plays vast number of bit older PC simulations at his place (on G25 and DFGT before that), with RBR being his personal all-time-favourite.
 
Interesting. Were you able to show him Shift 1/2 as well? Because what I've seen of FRL, it seems to have very similar handling characteristics. And I think most people would agree that the Shift games have pretty unrealistic physics. I think an experienced sim racer and an experienced real racer approach a game from very different angles. The sim racer knows what to expect, and compares it to other games they love, and can quickly assess what feels different. The real racer is used to the 'seat of the pants' feel, g-forces, and peripheral vision. When that is all stripped away, and you're left with a fairly realistic but extremely clinical and bland sim (e.g. iRacing), the real racer would understandably feel like there is a lot 'missing' from the experience. Shift and FRL artificially put that back in, at the expense of accuracy. But if it ultimately means that it makes for a more visceral, fun experience, then it's no surprise that a real racer would be drawn to those games.
 

amar212

Member
Interesting. Were you able to show him Shift 1/2 as well? Because what I've seen of FRL, it seems to have very similar handling characteristics.

No, not even close. If Shifts had physics and FFB feel from FRL, they would be a games we would all praise today.

I couldn't play Shift/Shift 2 without forcing myself into play just for the sake of progress and trying to find something that will excite me enough to play more. I never even reconsider for a moment to call them simulations or anything close. On the other hand, I feel in love with FRL in the very first moment I start to play it.

Two absolutely different games.
 

Veal

Member
I've been having a very specific problem with the PC version of Dirt 2 lately and it's driving me up the wall. Whenever very specific things start happening, (i.e.: looking at the menu from the trailer, watching the replays) the game crashes. It's pretty much stopped all of my progress with the game. I recently updated to the newest drivers from nvida. Could that be the problem?
 

Shaneus

Member
Thanks for the info, amar! Definitely interesting to hear a completely different perspective on everything. Apologies for not understanding that FRL link wasn't working... but shortly after I found quite a number of people who were quite pissed at not receiving anything AT ALL. Very poor form of Atari.
 

1-D_FTW

Member
Apologies for not understanding that FRL link wasn't working... but shortly after I found quite a number of people who were quite pissed at not receiving anything AT ALL. Very poor form of Atari.

Easy mistake to make. It's had a 3D Vision rating in the Nvidia drivers ("good" - not surprising since there are always issues with SMS racers) for a while now. I'd just assumed it'd been out a while. I even remember checking out that Atari site quite a while ago.
 

TJP

Member
Hmm. I found a website that has what looks to be quite a few GTR 2 & Race '07 tracks converted to GSC 2012 including Macau, Porto & Okayama. Good thing I own all the SimBin games otherwise I'd have a moral dilemma 8)
 

paskowitz

Member
Assetto Corsa – Stefano Casillo Q&A

Avid sim racer Dzidza1978 recently had the chance to ask Kunos Simulazioni’s Stefano Casillo about their upcoming Assetto Corsa simulation.

Dzidza1978 made great use of the opportunity as instead of asking the common questions often asked in magazine articles, his questions go into detail on particular features such as damage, car customization, number of cars in multiplayer, AI development and much more.

How extensive will the damage systems be?

Mechanical damage is easy to implement and it will be there. The hard part is to find the right balance between damage model and playability. It’s quite easy to say “if you treat the gearbox poorly it will break” but finding the mathematical definition for “treat poorly” is difficult and there’s always the risk of wasting time on a feature that nobody will see (eg, damage that isn’t obvious) or end up with races full of DNFs if you if make it too extreme. As with most other features in Assetto Corsa, they will be in the public version only if we are 100% confident they work and they improve the experience.

Will there be any form of car customization?

Our physics developer, Aris Vasilakos, loves this stuff. We have spoken about it and came up with a plan but, again, we’re back into “when it’s done” territory.

Will there be any form of event editor? Perhaps even a tool for creating online tournaments?

Oh surely not. That’s what we consider the community’s responsibility. There is no way we could develop the game and these kinds of management systems simultaneously. Our plan is to output/export as much data as possible from the server to allow third-parties to manage their own leagues.

Will Assetto Corsa be available for the next-gen consoles?

I would love it to be, but to get on the consoles you need to be backed by a publisher and we don’t currently have one, nor are we actively looking for one.

What do you think is your advantage compared to other racing games?

I have no idea. We do things our way. If we have any advantage, I’d like to hear that from the users. We go 200% to do our best work at any stage of development. That’s all we can do.

Is there a limit to the number of cars in multiplayer?

There is no hard-coded number like we had in netKar Pro. The practical number will be something to discover once the game is out.

Will there be dedicated servers or the possibility of renting dedicated servers?

Our company is not structured to provide that kind of service so the system will be identical to what we had in netKar Pro.

Do you have any plans to port netKar Pro tracks to Assetto Corsa?

We don’t have plans for that. I’d rather have the team work on new content than convert stuff from a 2006 simulator. I think running at Aviano with netKar Pro graphics when you can run at Monza with Assetto Corsa graphics is quite a silly idea. However, Trento Bondone is so well loved that we could plan to add it as bonus track, even if we are totally focused on the new laser-scanned tracks.

How have you approached AI development given that this is the first time you have included it.

As we approach everything else; by experimenting and finding what works and what doesn’t. I am working with a young programmer and we sort of split the early development. I went for a more traditional and dedicated approach to race AI and he went for a more university research approach with neural networks and all that cool stuff. In the end, my code path was the winner so we went with a more traditional approach, but our AI isn’t going to start WW3 or hijack a spaceship.

Will data telemetry apps be available for the Windows Phone platform?

I don’t know, though if we don’t release it, we’ll provide the necessary information to let the community code it for themselves.

Is the cost-per-track higher for laser-scanned tracks compared to traditional modeling?

The cost of laser-scanning does add up, but the development is much more linear and predictable because there is no need to argue about how steep a hill might be, how bumpy certain corners are, or how wide a particular track is. The scan is the unquestionable final word to all these doubts.

Can we expect official DLC besides what that the modding community might offer?

We have more content licenses than we can produce right now so I think additional content from us is a very strong possibility in the future.

Will Assetto Corsa have features such as manually starting the car?

At the moment we don’t have those features and nobody in the team seems to miss them.

What are the main obstacles when modeling tires?

The main obstacle is that nobody understands what’s going on and nobody seems to be able to figure out a consistent and reliable way to test them, so they remain pretty much a black art.
 

mclaren777

Member
More importantly, one of our members here (Dzidza1978) conducted the interview and I'm the one who edited the content and sent it to both sites.

Regardless, we thank you sharing the interview in this thread.
 

mclaren777

Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYR9kjghG5w

ibkiQA4oe6sxI4.gif
 

Megasoum

Banned
Now if only Kudos could release their trial/demo/benchmark whatever they call it.

Then again, because of Fanatec's TERRIBLE shipping department I probably won't have a steering wheel for a couple of weeks so no rush.
 
My favorite part of the whole Tiff thing is that someone on iRacing pulled out his profile.

His review was based after 8 laps of Lime Rock during a race in the MX5. During those laps he accrued over 25 incident points (off track = 1 point, lose control of vehicle = 2 points, cause a wreck with another car = 4 points). His fastest lap time around Lime Rock was 1:06 (average driver will easily get their time into the 0:59-1:01 range).

He didn't even give it a chance.
 

1-D_FTW

Member
My favorite part of the whole Tiff thing is that someone on iRacing pulled out his profile.

His review was based after 8 laps of Lime Rock during a race in the MX5. During those laps he accrued over 25 incident points (off track = 1 point, lose control of vehicle = 2 points, cause a wreck with another car = 4 points). His fastest lap time around Lime Rock was 1:06 (average driver will easily get their time into the 0:59-1:01 range).

He didn't even give it a chance.

1:06? No wonder he liked Dirt 3 the best. That's horrendous.
 

paskowitz

Member
Twitter conversation with Tiff. @AMP_US: @tiff_tv I just thought you should know that you have pissed off the entire internet with that racing video game piece on Fifth Gear...

@tiff_tv: @AMP_US Thought I was opening a large can of worms ... not my idea and it was researchers who picked the games!!!
 
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