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[bunkitz]

i'm going back to the real world now, took me a while to figure out how, then after that, which one is the death confidant? can i get what i need from them before facing the boss?

so getting the treasure and fighting the boss has to be done separately, and the first thing you do is get the treasure. how prepared to i need to be for this stuff?

i just wanna be done with this kamoshida mothafucker and move the fuck on with the story already. he's the first minor villain, i get that, i don't like him and i wanna just get the story going ya know.

i think i found the place to get back to the real world, the gate of the castle, also for the fusions, i'm in the dream thing, with an agathion and a bicorn what's the difference between normal fusion and fuse by result?
yeah i might have to take it down to easy difficulty. it took me a while just to figure out how to get out of the castle and back in the real world

The Death Confidant is Tae Takemi, the back-alley doctor in Yongen. And I'm not 100% certain about this, but I don't think you'll be able to reach the required rank where she'll sell you SP-restoring accessories. They're also pretty damn expensive, so you might not have enough money yet since you're only in the first Palace.

As long as you're doing well enough against the mobs before reaching the Treasure, you should be fine against Shadow Kamoshida. Just make sure to watch over your HP and SP, use stat boosters and debuffs, etc. If you can bring some SP restoratives like coffee, then do so. Although, I can't quite recall if my fight with Kamoshida ever reached the point where I needed to use SP restoratives. General tip, though: Check out the vending machines for SP-restoring sodas. It'll just be 5 or 10 SP per can, but they'll come in handy if you want to use your time as efficiently as possible. (min-maxing your time by covering as much of a Palace as you can so that you can spend the rest of the time on social stats, Confidants, etc.)

Normal Fusion and Fuse by Result are exactly the same. The difference is just the way they show the results. The latter displays a list of Persona you can get by fusing what you've got at the moment. The former has you picking two Personas in order to see the result. Took a while before I checked the latter, and it's incredibly useful to know what you can get with your current roster, especially since they're ordered by Arcana. (since having a Persona of a certain Arcana helps in ranking up said Arcana's Confidant)

 

[chrominance]

So im trying to fuse the Flauros Persona for the Twins. I know I need 3 different Personas for the fusion but I only have Berith in my compendium. Im already past the 3rd Palace in game so im not running into the other 2 anymore.

Spoiler

Andras and Eligor

Anyone know what I should do to find them again or maybe fuse some other low level Personas I might have in the compendium? I cant seem to find much help by searching online so far.

This is the fusion chart for Persona 5. Any persona that doesn't require a special combination of specific personas (so everything in the Advanced fusion section, plus a few one-off high-level personas that require two specific personas) can be made by referring to this chart.

Let's say you want an Eligor, which is Emperor arcana. If you look at the grid, every place Emperor shows up will be the intersection of two other arcanas that you can use to fuse an Emperor arcana persona. Once you have that figured out, it's just a matter of making sure you get the level right--generally it's easiest to fuse two persona of roughly the same level to get a new persona of that level or slightly above, but this is an imperfect science. Often you can figure out how to get to a persona by taking one you already have that's in the right ballpark re: level, and then figuring out what arcana you need to fuse it with to get the target arcana.

If all of this sounds like way too much work, and you just want to know exactly how to get what you want without experimentation, here's Eligor and Andras. If you can figure out how to read the chart now, though, it'll pay dividends down the road for later fusions, especially when you have to figure out how to get specific skills onto the persona for later Strength requests.

Oh, also: if you really want to capture the personas rather than fuse them, try Mementos. I'd guess the second area you unlock would have the personas you seek, but don't quote me on that.

 

[Juliano2016]

Finished the third Palace.

Spoiler

It was the most boring Palace so far IMO, those puzzles were very unimaginative and made for some unfun meandering around the map.
Not a favourite. The boss was surprisingly easy as well, Madarame was way more of a nuisance

 

[Astral]

Is Palace

Spoiler

6

considered the really bad one? Or is it

Spoiler

7

? I'm loving

Spoiler

6

so far.

 

[Bladenic]

I got my first boss game over on the Palace 5 boss, and that wasn't even from the boss.

Spoiler

Goddamn robots blew themselves up two in a row and I couldn't do shit. Trash.

 

[Opa-Pa]

Is Palace

Spoiler

6

considered the really bad one? Or is it

Spoiler

7

? I'm loving

Spoiler

6

so far.

Only 5 and 7, I think. That one is my favorite!

I got my first boss game over on the Palace 5 boss, and that wasn't even from the boss.

Spoiler

Goddamn robots blew themselves up two in a row and I couldn't do shit. Trash.

Spoiler

They're actually the boss. And you can survive the explosions if you're hungry.

 

[Zesh]

Is Palace

Spoiler

6

considered the really bad one? Or is it

Spoiler

7

? I'm loving

Spoiler

6

so far.

A lot of people dislike

Spoiler

7

(I liked it, for what it's worth).

Spoiler

6

is generally pretty well-liked.

 

[RPGCrazied]

You all can beat me up if you want to, I asked, that's that. I didn't know. Is there more than 2? Cause I saw both now. 90 hours. Loved the game, I'll replay but not right away, the game is huge. I got other stuff to play.

 

[BinaryBear07]

Man, the SP restoring accessories make all the difference while grinding in dungeons.

I need some of these. I could have finished Palace 2 a lot quicker had I not run out of SP.

 

[Mailbox]

Is Palace

Spoiler

6

considered the really bad one? Or is it

Spoiler

7

? I'm loving

Spoiler

6

so far.

Idk, I really enjoyed both 6 and 7. the only actual dungeons i didn't super enjoy were 3 (music was great but the dungeon itself was eh) and 5 (it was kinda tedious)

 

[LotusHD]

Is Palace

Spoiler

6

considered the really bad one? Or is it

Spoiler

7

? I'm loving

Spoiler

6

so far.

Spoiler

I liked 6's music. That's it. 7 was fine, but way too long as usual. Pretty much everything after 4 was pretty meh imo

 

[Zesh]

You all can beat me up if you want to, I asked, that's that. I didn't know. Is there more than 2? Cause I saw both now. 90 hours. Loved the game, I'll replay but not right away, the game is huge. I got other stuff to play.

Major spoilers below:

Spoiler

I think there are technically a lot of endings, but many are similar:

Don't accept Igor's contract at the start of the game (probably doesn't really count).
Miss the deadline for every palace (results in some slightly different dialogue each time; the 7th palace is a bit different).
Let time expire when chasing Okumura.
Give up details about the Phantom Thieves to Sae.
Accept fake Igor's deal.
Reject fake Igor's deal.

 

[broz0rs]

Anybody know how Persona leveling works? I've noticed Personas being leveled up even when the MC is not currently equipping it.

 

[Astral]

Oh so I'm not at the bad one yet. I hope I like it. In general a lot of dungeons are too long but the only Palace I really didn't like was 3. The last area was a pain in the ass and there were way too many Onis.

 

[Opa-Pa]

You all can beat me up if you want to, I asked, that's that. I didn't know. Is there more than 2? Cause I saw both now. 90 hours. Loved the game, I'll replay but not right away, the game is huge. I got other stuff to play.

There are many "bad" shorter endings, but the true ending is achieved by

Spoiler

not accepting fake Igor's deal onece he reveals himself as the true puppet master behind everything. This unlocks the rest of the story.

 

[Zesh]

Anybody know how Persona leveling works? I've noticed Personas being leveled up even when the MC is not currently equipping it.

The Growth ability allows personas that are not currently equipped to gain experience.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Anybody know how Persona leveling works? I've noticed Personas being leveled up even when the MC is not currently equipping it.

They probably have growth abilities attached that level them up passively. I once leveled up three in one battle. Felt pretty good.

 

[Bladenic]

No idea why people hate dungeon 5 so much. Didn't seem any different from the rest. All the dungeons are 3+ hour slogs, this was no different.

 

[StrikeFirst117]

Just made Makoto's ultimate ranged weapon and holy shit at the buff she gets, +10 to all stats for having it equipped.
I'm right near the end on new game+ with 3.2 million yen and have 40 percent of the compendium left to fill, guess its time to spend 5-10 hours fusing to complete the compendium.

 

[Orcastar]

Goddammit, it's 15/12 And I've got all confidants maxed except Makoto (rank 9) and Iwai (rank 8). Apparently my last chance of getting Makoto to rank 10 was on 12/10? So fucking annoyed right now. Almost want to load an earlier save, but then I'd have to complete the entire palace again...

How come there are days on which the Thieves Guild thing shows people spending time with characters who are not actually available on that day? Like for 15/12 it's showing that people spent time with Makoto, but she's not at the school.

 

[duckroll]

So Palace 5 was supposed to be.... bad? It was easily the best one yet. Amazing design. Big and meaty. Lots of fun sections. What gives? Is "there is too much dungeon" really an issue people have? Lame.

The story's so good now, I can't wait to find out what happens next. But since the story is delivered on rails, I'm going to have to keep dating friendzoning older female sexual predators while I wait for the next exciting episode of Mental Shutdown Mysteries.

At least I finally got to bond with the legendary GET SMOKED himself. Seems like a cool kid.

 

[Novum_Veritas]

Never had any issues with

Spoiler

Palace 5

to be honest, the music was nice too.

 

[Zesh]

Goddammit, it's 15/12 And I've got all confidants maxed except Makoto (rank 9) and Iwai (rank 8). Apparently my last chance of getting Makoto to rank 10 was on 12/10? So fucking annoyed right now. Almost want to load an earlier save, but then I'd have to complete the entire palace again...

How come there are days on which the Thieves Guild thing shows people spending time with characters who are not actually available on that day? Like for 15/12 it's showing that people spent time with Makoto, but she's not at the school.

I'm pretty sure that everyone is available on

Spoiler

12/22

, so you'll be fine. You should have enough time to finish those two.

As for the latter, I believe availability is different depending on what rank they are. People who are spending time with Makoto on that day must have her at a lower rank than you do.

 

[Rodin]

So Palace 5 was supposed to be.... bad? It was easily the best one yet. Amazing design. Big and meaty. Lots of fun sections. What gives? Is "there is too much dungeon" really an issue people have? Lame.

The story's so good now, I can't wait to find out what happens next. But since the story is delivered on rails, I'm going to have to keep dating friendzoning older female sexual predators while I wait for the next exciting episode of Mental Shutdown Mysteries.

At least I finally got to bond with the legendary GET SMOKED himself. Seems like a cool kid.

I wouldn't say it was the best but it was great, never got the hate honestly. Only palace 7 has some weak parts, but all around this game has some of the best dungeons in any jrpg.

 

[Pie and Beans]

October has really soured me on this game. The pacing was pretty shitty before, but essentially an entire locked off to visual novel month is to the point of parody.

For first timers its going to be easy to recommend Persona 3 FES and Persona 4 as far better stories, but going backwards in gameplay improvements will no doubt be a toughie.

This games still gonna be in the running for GOTY, but by fuck did they flub the story and pacing. Oh and bizarrely enough, music. It's been the same music all the way through with no shift in atmosphere. "I'M A SHAPESHIFTER" for 100 hours, Zim. A HUNDRED HOURS.

 

[Novel Mike]

So Palace 5 was supposed to be.... bad? It was easily the best one yet. Amazing design. Big and meaty. Lots of fun sections. What gives? Is "there is too much dungeon" really an issue people have? Lame.

The story's so good now, I can't wait to find out what happens next. But since the story is delivered on rails, I'm going to have to keep dating friendzoning older female sexual predators while I wait for the next exciting episode of Mental Shutdown Mysteries.

At least I finally got to bond with the legendary GET SMOKED himself. Seems like a cool kid.

The problem with Palace 5 and pretty much every place post 3 is that its constantly repeating puzzles and mechanics that just go out of their way to waste your time. Making you back track or run around in circles, ect. That combined with the length of each one makes them just very unfun. It's likely not nearly as bad if you don't do them in one sitting but considering thats damn well near a requirement if you want to get the max confidant trophy in one play through.

 

[Astral]

No idea why people hate dungeon 5 so much. Didn't seem any different from the rest. All the dungeons are 3+ hour slogs, this was no different.

The real problem with that dungeon is that Makoto kept saying the treasure is after the next door. No Makoto. It's after the next like 4 doors.

 

[LotusHD]

So Palace 5 was supposed to be.... bad? It was easily the best one yet. Amazing design. Big and meaty. Lots of fun sections. What gives? Is "there is too much dungeon" really an issue people have? Lame.

The story's so good now, I can't wait to find out what happens next. But since the story is delivered on rails, I'm going to have to keep dating friendzoning older female sexual predators while I wait for the next exciting episode of Mental Shutdown Mysteries.

At least I finally got to bond with the legendary GET SMOKED himself. Seems like a cool kid.

It wasn't really noticeably worse than the rest of them, so I didn't really get it either. Maybe the mix of both the enemies being generally resistant to physical attacks and the

Spoiler

airlock sections

were what really put people off. If it's the part where

Spoiler

you guess who is who regarding the staff, well, I just fought and killed them instead of bothering to guess correctly, so meh.

 

[RalchAC]

I wouldn't say it was the best but it was great, never got the hate honestly. Only palace 7 has some weak parts, but all around this game has some of the best dungeons in any jrpg.

I think most of the people who hated Palace 5 had problems with some of the puzzle section. People complain about the card thing but I found it really easy. You can easily avoid battles too.

The last part was quite good too, and had almost no battles.

The only one that I feel it may have overstayed his welcome was the second one due to the timers and all.

Palace 3 is the best one for me tbh.

 

[silva1991]

So Palace 5 was supposed to be.... bad? It was easily the best one yet. Amazing design. Big and meaty. Lots of fun sections. What gives? Is "there is too much dungeon" really an issue people have? Lame.

The story's so good now, I can't wait to find out what happens next. But since the story is delivered on rails, I'm going to have to keep dating friendzoning older female sexual predators while I wait for the next exciting episode of Mental Shutdown Mysteries.

At least I finally got to bond with the legendary GET SMOKED himself. Seems like a cool kid.

The Chief Clerk's IDs part can be pretty bad and annoying if you kept fighting the wrong targets over and over, but other than that I'm not sure what's bad about it.

The other puzzle sections were awesome.

 

[Zolo]

The real problem with that dungeon is that Makoto kept saying the treasure is after the next door. No Makoto. It's after the next like 4 doors.

 

[Novum_Veritas]

Basically Mona telling crap

 

[NeonBlack]

Teacher:"This is King Kamehameha, what is he holding in his hand?"

Me: "A Dragon Ball"

*one of the options is dragon ball*

Me:"Must...not....pick....dragon....ball"

 

[duckroll]

The problem with Palace 5 and pretty much every place post 3 is that its constantly repeating puzzles and mechanics that just go out of their way to waste your time. Making you back track or run around in circles, ect. That combined with the length of each one makes them just very unfun. It's likely not nearly as bad if you don't do them in one sitting but considering thats damn well near a requirement if you want to get the max confidant trophy in one play through.

I don't find it a waste of my time or unfun. I like puzzles and dungeon exploration. It's something that Persona has lacked for a very long time because the change into random dungeons turned it into more of a risk/reward progression treadmill rather than something that rewarded the player for exploring and figuring stuff out in each dungeon. Backtracking is a part of designed dungeon crawlers. It's always been a large part of SMT dungeons to have unique gimmicks in each dungeon and little puzzles in the pathing, sometimes leading to you having to redo stuff because you got something wrong.

I don't understand why you would feel forced to do everything in one sitting either. There are tons of save rooms in the dungeons and each section is divided such that you always have a save room at the start and at the end, forming natural stopping points. You don't have to leave the dungeon. You can save, take a break, come back and continue. The dungeons are long, but no one said you have to do all 3-5 hours of it at one go. Weird mentality.

The Chief Clerk's IDs part can be pretty bad and annoying if you kept fighting the wrong targets over and over, but other than that I'm not sure what's bad about it.

The other puzzle sections were awesome.

That just sounds like user fault to me.

 

[Astral]

Lol oh yeah him too. Why the fuck did they keep saying that?

 

[PK Gaming]

The problem with Palace 5 and pretty much every place post 3 is that its constantly repeating puzzles and mechanics that just go out of their way to waste your time. Making you back track or run around in circles, ect. That combined with the length of each one makes them just very unfun. It's likely not nearly as bad if you don't do them in one sitting but considering thats damn well near a requirement if you want to get the max confidant trophy in one play through.

I don't think it's fair to fault the dungeon for something the player shouldn't be doing on their first playthrough anyway.

It's undeniably repetitive and it runs for a little longer than it should, but the hate towards it was always overblown. It isn't even the worst dungeon in the game.

 

[Bladenic]

The Chief Clerk's IDs part can be pretty bad and annoying if you kept fighting the wrong targets over and over, but other than that I'm not sure what's bad about it.

The other puzzle sections were awesome.

I was expecting some annoying and/hard puzzles based on the reactions. It was literally nothing more than "find a tiny robot room, listen to them, interview the big ones" and you never had more than two options to fight (maybe three for the last ones). It was super easy. If someone just fought all the robots, that's their fault. Not the game's fault if someone is too impatient or stupid to do what it asks.

 

[LotusHD]

I don't understand why you would feel forced to do everything in one sitting either. There are tons of save rooms in the dungeons and each section is divided such that you always have a save room at the start and at the end, forming natural stopping points. You don't have to leave the dungeon. You can save, take a break, come back and continue. The dungeons are long, but no one said you have to do all 3-5 hours of it at one go. Weird mentality.

This is true, trying to do it all in one go will undoubtedly increase the chances of you getting tired of progressing through the looong palaces. That being said, I took my time with several of them, taking breaks that would range from hours to just playing the game the next day, still ended up feeling that they were too lengthy, because I mean, it still took me the same amount of time to complete it regardless.

 

[Orcastar]

I'm pretty sure that everyone is available on

Spoiler

12/22

, so you'll be fine. You should have enough time to finish those two.

As for the latter, I believe availability is different depending on what rank they are. People who are spending time with Makoto on that day must have her at a lower rank than you do.

Oh man, that's a relief. I remember calculating how many rank ups I still needed in late November and thinking I had it in the bag. Didn't expect to be cutting it this close in the end.

 

[Hyoukokun]

I don't understand why you would feel forced to do everything in one sitting either.

Every venture into the palaces/mementos means a full day + evening that you can't use for other purposes (

Spoiler

well, until you level a certain confidant enough

). Certainly you're not forced to go through all in one sitting, but you lose opportunity if you don't. IIRC P3/P4 penalized you if you kept at the dungeons for too long, so that you had a (negative) incentive to take a break.

Having said that, I'm reasonably certain it's either extremely hard or impossible to max everything out on your first play-through anyhow. If I go for a second play I'll probably take it much easier in the palaces than I did the first time.

 

[duckroll]

Every venture into the palaces/mementos means a full day + evening that you can't use for other purposes (

Spoiler

well, until you level a certain confidant enough

). Certainly you're not forced to go through all in one sitting, but you lose opportunity if you don't. IIRC P3/P4 penalized you if you kept at the dungeons for too long, so that you had a (negative) incentive to take a break.

Having said that, I'm reasonably certain it's either extremely hard or impossible to max everything out on your first play-through anyhow. If I go for a second play I'll probably take it much easier in the palaces than I did the first time.

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. You do understand that doing a dungeon in one run is not the same as doing it in one sitting right? You can save in a dungeon, turn the console off, turn it back on later when you feel like playing more, and it's still... the same day in the game. It sounds like people are trying to force themselves to power through without stopping for some reason, and getting tired that the dungeon is so long. Instead of fake fatigue from Persona 3, it has turned into real life fatigue!

 

[RalchAC]

Basically Mona telling crap

News at 11

Spoiler

... I think

.

I don't find it a waste of my time or unfun. I like puzzles and dungeon exploration. It's something that Persona has lacked for a very long time because the change into random dungeons turned it into more of a risk/reward progression treadmill rather than something that rewarded the player for exploring and figuring stuff out in each dungeon. Backtracking is a part of designed dungeon crawlers. It's always been a large part of SMT dungeons to have unique gimmicks in each dungeon and little puzzles in the pathing, sometimes leading to you having to redo stuff because you got something wrong.

I don't understand why you would feel forced to do everything in one sitting either. There are tons of save rooms in the dungeons and each section is divided such that you always have a save room at the start and at the end, forming natural stopping points. You don't have to leave the dungeon. You can save, take a break, come back and continue. The dungeons are long, but no one said you have to do all 3-5 hours of it at one go. Weird mentality.

That just sounds like user fault to me.

I don't really get why people complain about the dungeons. They're well done for the most part. Puzzles are interesting, not too hard but help change the pace of the game. There is a nice variety of them. They allow for some exploration. They make you feel like a badass thief quite often. Each one has its own feeling. The battle system allows for sub-15 second fights once you are used to the dungeon enemies.

Makoto allows you to see trash mobs skills beforehand, so you won't be taken by surprise. And the way dungeons are designed, 95% of the time you manage to ambush your enemies, which basically gives you a free turn.

 

[Zafir]

I don't think it's fair to fault the dungeon for something the player shouldn't be doing on their first playthrough anyway.

It's undeniably repetitive and it runs for a little longer than it should, but the hate towards it was always overblown. It isn't even the worst dungeon in the game.

I mean it's just because debates always push people further towards extremes, even if they didn't really think that in the first place.

Like I think dungeon 5 isn't good as I've argued a few times in this thread, but it's not the worst dungeon ever, and still miles better than anything Persona 3 or 4 offered.

It reminds me of Final Fantasy XV and the infamous chapter 13. Where there was the endless debate between people who hated it and didn't mind it.

News at 11

Spoiler

... I think

.



I don't really get why people complain about the dungeons. They're well done for the most part. Puzzles are interesting, not too hard but help change the pace of the game. There is a nice variety of them. They allow for some exploration. They make you feel like a badass thief quite often. Each one has its own feeling. The battle system allows for sub-15 second fights once you are used to the dungeon enemies.

Makoto allows you to see trash mobs skills beforehand, so you won't be taken by surprise. And the way dungeons are designed, 95% of the time you manage to ambush your enemies, which basically gives you a free turn.

I think the fact is, different people tolerate things in different ways.

I personally get irritated at repetition as do others it seems, but not everyone does I guess.

 

[PK Gaming]

This is a real line apparently

source

 

[Astral]

Palace 5 is amazing in comparison to 3. Seriously fuck 3.

 

[Peff]

I don't understand why you would feel forced to do everything in one sitting either. There are tons of save rooms in the dungeons and each section is divided such that you always have a save room at the start and at the end, forming natural stopping points. You don't have to leave the dungeon. You can save, take a break, come back and continue. The dungeons are long, but no one said you have to do all 3-5 hours of it at one go. Weird mentality.

I guess it's probably a mix of that, which is somewhat understandable due to completionist tendencies, and some urge to finish the game ASAP, and that's something that will very likely burn you out, probably. I have been trying to reach the treasure in one in-game day, but also have no problem with splitting the dungeon in three or four one hour-ish daily sessions. As long as you can beat a boss or reach the end of one of the obvious sections of each dungeon, it feels like good progress. So far I've enjoyed all of them quite a bit, so I suppose it's working.

 

[RalchAC]

I mean it's just because debates always push people further towards extremes, even if they didn't really think that in the first place.

Like I think dungeon 5 isn't good as I've argued a few times in this thread, but it's not the worst dungeon ever, and still miles better than anything Persona 3 or 4 offered.

It reminds me of Final Fantasy XV and the infamous chapter 13. Where there was the endless debate between people who hated it and didn't mind it.

I think the fact is, different people tolerate things in different ways.

I personally get irritated at repetition as do others it seems, but not everyone does I guess.

They're definitely repetitive and even I have thought they overstay their welcome a bit. But I feel some people really go the extreme when they talk about them. After playing Persona 3 and 4, I can't type the words Persona 5 and terrible in the same sentence tbh. I've done much worse than that.

 

[Hyoukokun]

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. You do understand that doing a dungeon in one run is not the same as doing it in one sitting right? You can save in a dungeon, turn the console off, turn it back on later when you feel like playing more, and it's still... the same day in the game. It sounds like people are trying to force themselves to power through without stopping for some reason, and getting tired that the dungeon is so long. Instead of fake fatigue from Persona 3, it has turned into real life fatigue!

Ha. Yes, sorry, misread. I probably marathoned my way through the game a bit much myself, but the PS4's rest mode functionality was and is a godsend - didn't even have to wait for a safe room to stop for the night.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

Palace 5 is amazing in comparison to 3. Seriously fuck 3.

? What's so bad about 3? It has really nice music in both parts and felt relatively short.

 

[Opa-Pa]

In the end, a lot of the complaints regarding the dungeons comes down to the fact that a lot of people bought Persona 5 without realizing they were buying a game that's 60% dungeon crawler and 40% school life simulator. And turns out that they do not like dungeon crawlers.

Not that there aren't any faults to them, but yeah.