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Persona Community Thread |OT4| The Golden Number

You don't find it at all conspicuous that, of all
the characters to enter the Shadow World, only Yu and Adachi never have Shadows?
I don't think Nametame technically did. The "shadow" you see in Heaven is actually Kunino-sagiri or however it was spelled possessing him much like Amano-sagiri was possessing Adachi, and the Nametame you see on the TV was a creation of the Investigation Team's strong feelings.

That all said, what was up with Kunino-sagiri? I presume it was another alter-ego thing of Izanami, but what purpose did it serve? In the end it was basically Shadow Nametame in everything but name because the story didn't allow for it.
 

PK Gaming

Member
tumblr_mzvfppDvoJ1s602ggo1_500.png

Dantis, this is amazing. Why were you holding out on us :d

That reminds me--the characters in Persona 4 are always so disappointed when they can't kill an enemy with their physical attacks.

"Ugh, I can't defeat it!"

Man Yukiko, your fan hasn't killed anything ever, get over yourself.

Concerning
Adachi, the more I look back on it the better I think he was as a character. His motives seem so thin at first view, but on further inspection he's actually really interesting. I like how he's not entirely spelled out for you either, but you can infer a lot about him from the flashbacks you see--he has the sick belief that he deserves everything he wants, Izanami's gift only making him worse. Of course I haven't seen his Social Links in Golden though, so there's probably something to him that I'm missing. But I'm still not sure how he managed to fit Mitsuo inside that tiny TV. Saki maybe, but I can't see him sticking Mitsuo in there, let alone with any haste.

Also, when you see him for the first time and he vomits, was that him putting on his rookie idiot disguise, or was that something else--probably shock as to realizing he had actually murdered someone? I'm sure this has been discussed before.

Don't worry, you got the gist of his character. That said, if you thought he was great in vanilla, you should watch check out his S.link on youtube. It adds an interesting new layer to the Yu / Adachi dynamic. Be sure to check out the special confrontation event that plays out between Yu and Adachi when his S.link is raised to 6.

I'm pretty sure the shock of actually killing a human being got to him. Fake vomitting does little to divert suspicion (in fact it makes you even more suspicious since detectives are trained to not react that way.
 

CorvoSol

Member
I don't think that that's relevant to
how they share facets of themselves, though. Sure, like Yu tells Sho in P4A2, he could have had the potential to use his powers for evil had his circumstances been the same as the antagonists, but saying they're straight up each other's Shadows is a bit much.

If anything, I think how the anime and P4A2 depicts Yu's Shadow is how I would envision his the most.

Well I don't mean it in the sense that
they literally are Shadows, but that they serve that role to one another. The game goes out of its way to draw parallels and connections between Yu, Adachi, and Namatame.

I don't think Nametame technically did. The "shadow" you see in Heaven is actually Kunino-sagiri or however it was spelled possessing him much like Amano-sagiri was possessing Adachi, and the Nametame you see on the TV was a creation of the Investigation Team's strong feelings.

That all said, what was up with Kunino-sagiri?

Yeah, I really didn't get what all was up with
Kunino Sagiri
, so I just sort of skimmed over that.
 

EMT0

Banned
You don't find it at all conspicuous that, of all
the characters to enter the Shadow World, only Yu and Adachi never have Shadows?

You might want to check out the Persona 4 anime. That actually addresses that issue, sort of, and I'm not sure if you want me to spoil it for you or not. That, and there's at least one more character,
namely Namatame and Nanako, who never manifest Shadows. In the case of Yu, his Shadow doesn't seem to appear because he manifests a Persona immediately. Namatame and Adachi seemed to be letting it all hang out when they were in the Shadow World, and Shadows left them alone or even aided them because of it. Your Shadow IS still you after all; there's a good argument to be made for both Adachi and Namatame having their Shadows(Jungian Shadows) being the ones at the helm within the Shadow World.
 

Sophia

Member
I sense someone's being bias....

Ya think? :p

But seriously, the two storylines are largely identical. The only real difference is who fights Shadow Labrys. It's hard to say that the author favors one character over the other. Given the amount of focus Aigis got in the earlier volumes, it's logical to assume that's the route being followed.
 

CorvoSol

Member
You might want to check out the Persona 4 anime. That actually addresses that issue, sort of, and I'm not sure if you want me to spoil it for you or not. That, and there's at least one more character,
namely Namatame and Nanako, who never manifest Shadows. In the case of Yu, his Shadow doesn't seem to appear because he manifests a Persona immediately. Namatame and Adachi seemed to be letting it all hang out when they were in the Shadow World, and Shadows left them alone or even aided them because of it. Your Shadow IS still you after all; there's a good argument to be made for both Adachi and Namatame having their Shadows(Jungian Shadows) being the ones at the helm within the Shadow World.

If I had a disappointment with the Heaven dungeon, it was that
Nanako didn't have a shadow. All that crap from Dojima and little girl wasn't holding anything back at all?

Still, not that major a disappointment, though.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Well I don't mean it in the sense that
they literally are Shadows, but that they serve that role to one another. The game goes out of its way to draw parallels and connections between Yu, Adachi, and Namatame.

That's what I mean. That's not what a Shadow's role is, whether it's in the strict Jungian sense or the P4 TV Shadow sense.
Yu's hidden self does not want to rape people and/or murder them. Yu's not repressing an identity close to what Adachi is. Perhaps I could understand it a bit when it comes to Adachi having an inner self who might want to be surrounded by friends and be "the best of the best" like Yu is, but that's about it.
 

CorvoSol

Member
That's what I mean. That's not what a Shadow's role is, whether it's in the strict Jungian sense or the P4 TV Shadow sense.
Yu's hidden self does not want to rape people and/or murder them. Yu's not repressing an identity close to what Adachi is. Perhaps I could understand it a bit when it comes to Adachi having an inner self who might want to be surrounded by friends and be "the best of the best" like Yu is, but that's about it.

Oh, I don't know. I think you're not giving
Adachi enough credit, either. Adachi didn't expressly want to rape the reporter. He wanted her to love him and only him. That doesn't seem all that different from how Yu can monopolize the intimacy of so many women, really. It's not about wanting to rape, it's about wanting to have someone to yourself, and you can definitely play Yu that way. It isn't about wanting to do what the other guy did, but the possibility that he could be who he was.
 

Sophia

Member
Oh, I don't know. I think you're not giving
Adachi enough credit, either. Adachi didn't expressly want to rape the reporter. He wanted her to love him and only him. That doesn't seem all that different from how Yu can monopolize the intimacy of so many women, really. It's not about wanting to rape, it's about wanting to have someone to yourself, and you can definitely play Yu that way.

I think you need to watch that scene again...

In the case of Adachi, he tends to more represent the investigation team as a whole, then one specific member of it. He has a lot in common with Yosuke too. Both of them were bored stuck in a small rural town, but Yosuke made friendships and came to like the place. Adachi resented it to the very end.
 

PK Gaming

Member
Worth pointing out that the Aigis's route and Yosuke's route are virtually identical up until near the final act. It's probably following Aigis's story.
It can't be

1)There's a panel of Yosuke in front of the entire investigation. Presumably this is the scene where the investigation team encourages Yosuke through Rise's Persona(which only happens in his route).

2) Ignoring that... Yosuke's fights with Chie, Yukiko and Yu were previously shown in the manga. Aigis fights Chie early on in her own route in the game, which makes it impossible for their routes to occur at the same time.

There's nothing that suggests its following Aigis's route. The 2 routes are very similar, but the author decided to stick with Yosuke's perspective.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Oh, I don't know. I think you're not giving
Adachi enough credit, either. Adachi didn't expressly want to rape the reporter. He wanted her to love him and only him. That doesn't seem all that different from how Yu can monopolize the intimacy of so many women, really. It's not about wanting to rape, it's about wanting to have someone to yourself, and you can definitely play Yu that way.

...Nah, not sure I can agree with that, and I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

You can twist the motivations like that, but that's exactly the type of falsified thinking that Adachi was trying to push on the Investigation Team by saying that they're exactly like him and their response was basically: "bullshit." The bottom line is that Adachi is a straight up bad guy and Yu is the total opposite. There is no shadow relation there.
 

CorvoSol

Member
I think you need to watch that scene again...

Maybe I used the wrong word, but what I remember was
Adachi being pissed that she was having an affair. He doesn't just walk into the room and try and rape her. Adachi had more motive than JUST rape is what I'm saying.

...Nah, not sure I can agree with that, and I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

You can twist the motivations like that, but that's exactly the type of falsified thinking that Adachi was trying to push on the Investigation Team by saying that they're exactly like him and their response was basically: "bullshit." The bottom line is that Adachi is a straight up bad guy and Yu is the total opposite. There is no shadow relation there.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying
Yu and Adachi are the same. I'm saying they're the opposite, and that that itself is the relationship between them, connects them, and makes them "similar". Isn't denying that something that stands in contrast to who you say you are a central problem in the entire game's plot? So many of the characters you meet have some problem that, when confronted with, they deny.

I mean for crying out loud, Izanami chooses both of them, and they both have the same, exact Persona. The game goes to great lengths to establish that they're meant to reflect each other.
 

EMT0

Banned
Oh, I don't know. I think you're not giving
Adachi enough credit, either. Adachi didn't expressly want to rape the reporter. He wanted her to love him and only him. That doesn't seem all that different from how Yu can monopolize the intimacy of so many women, really. It's not about wanting to rape, it's about wanting to have someone to yourself, and you can definitely play Yu that way. It isn't about wanting to do what the other guy did, but the possibility that he could be who he was.

I'm not sure you can argue this one. Adachi tried to force himself on the reporter before he tried to slam her into the TV when she fought him; that's when she fell through. Yu...is more or less the Perfect Golden Boy. The anime sort of implies that he gets women's attention without really trying all that much. There's not much to contrast them here. The fundamental contrast between Adachi, Yu, and Namatame is that Yu had companionship, Namatame had it then lost it, and Adachi never had it to begin with; watch as these three people get Izanami's blessing and how they choose to take action.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying
Yu and Adachi are the same. I'm saying they're the opposite, and that that itself is the relationship between them, connects them, and makes them "similar". Isn't denying that something that stands in contrast to who you say you are a central problem in the entire game's plot? So many of the characters you meet have some problem that, when confronted with, they deny.

I mean for crying out loud, Izanami chooses both of them, and they both have the same, exact Persona. The game goes to great lengths to establish that they're meant to reflect each other.

But one's shadow isn't the "opposite" of who they depict themselves as. That's where I'm stuck in what you're saying, because "shadow" has a very specific meaning.
 

CorvoSol

Member
I'm not sure you can argue this one. Adachi tried to force himself on the reporter before he tried to slam her into the TV when she fought him; that's when she fell through. Yu...is more or less the Perfect Golden Boy. The anime sort of implies that he gets women's attention without really trying all that much. There's not much to contrast them here. The fundamental contrast between Adachi, Yu, and Namatame is that Yu had companionship, Namatame had it then lost it, and Adachi never had it to begin with; watch as these three people get Izanami's blessing and how they choose to take action.

I'm not arguing against any of that, though. I don't see why people think I'm arguing against what happened on screen. All I'm saying is that Yu and Adachi are opposites, and that that plays into everything that the game discusses. I think people have taken my shadow comment far more literally than I intended it. I meant it in terms of role, and not in terms of literally Adachi is a shadow who popped the fuck out of Yu's brain. Just that, just like how everyone else had to confront things they felt were opposite of themselves and move past that, Yu has to confront Adachi and move past that before he can fight Izanami. Note that Yukiko confronts her shadow, accepts it, and then realizes toward the end of her SLink that she does want to stay in town. So even if Yu, after confronting Adachi, concludes that he and Adachi aren't the same, he still must go through the confrontation with Adachi and the whole "I am you you are me" bit.

But one's shadow isn't the "opposite" of who they depict themselves as. That's where I'm stuck in what you're saying, because "shadow" has a very specific meaning.

Then, again, I think you're taking my use of shadow too literally. Or maybe the word "opposite."
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Then, again, I think you're taking my use of shadow too literally.

No, I'm telling you that the problem I have with what you described is the role, not the literal boss Shadows. A Shadow does not represent the opposite of one's personality. That's not the role they fulfill. So neither does
Adachi's role to Yu.
 

EMT0

Banned
I'm not arguing against any of that, though. I don't see why people think I'm arguing against what happened on screen. All I'm saying is that Yu and Adachi are opposites, and that that plays into everything that the game discusses. I think people have taken my shadow comment far more literally than I intended it. I meant it in terms of role, and not in terms of literally Adachi is a shadow who popped the fuck out of Yu's brain. Just that, just like how everyone else had to confront things they felt were opposite of themselves and move past that, Yu has to confront Adachi and move past that before he can fight Izanami. Note that Yukiko confronts her shadow, accepts it, and then realizes toward the end of her SLink that she does want to stay in town. So even if Yu, after confronting Adachi, concludes that he and Adachi aren't the same, he still must go through the confrontation with Adachi and the whole "I am you you are me" bit.

Then, again, I think you're taking my use of shadow too literally.

Fair enough, that does make more sense.
Adachi functioning as Yu's contrast in the end game is a good argument, IMO, although if this was Atlus' intentions the delivery was pretty weak. That's what makes me hesitate on this idea; Persona 4 is a game with very meticulous presentation, so something that...I dunno, significant? It feels like something that significant would have gotten a larger spotlight or better contrast. Saying that Adachi and Yu are contrasts is pretty much undebatable though. Izanagi as a Persona? Easy answer.
 

Sophia

Member
Then, again, I think you're taking my use of shadow too literally. Or maybe the word "opposite."

The context of the word "Shadow" here has two distinctive meanings: The enemies in series, and the concept as it applies in Jungian psychology. Both are very well defined too, especially the later and how it's used in regards to the series (See: Edogawa lessons on Jung being included as extras.)

And like I said, what you describe better accurately describes Yosuke.
 

CorvoSol

Member
No, I'm telling you that the problem I have with what you described is the role, not the literal boss Shadows. A Shadow does not represent the opposite of one's personality. That's not the role they fulfill. So neither does
Adachi's role to Yu.

Okay then apparently we played different games. Because a Shadow very obviously served that role to the characters. Yousuke is a friendly dude, his shadow is a jerkass. This is because
Yousuke is discontent with his boring ass life in this town.
Yu is a super cool guy, so his foil in the plot isn't. Ta-da

I'm sorry I'm not a fucking psyche major.

YEESH.

I'll come back to the thread when you don't have to have a fucking college education to talk about a video game. God damn.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Okay then apparently we played different games. Because a Shadow very obviously served that role to the characters. Yousuke is a friendly dude, his shadow is a jerkass. This is because
Yousuke is discontent with his boring ass life in this town.
Yu is a super cool guy, so his foil in the plot isn't. Ta-da

I'm not sure that that's what their intention was with Shadows, and I'm pretty sure I could find a whole lot refuting that just in the P4 art book interviews.
Already, that point about the distinction between Yosuke's behavior and his Shadow's is incredibly superficial. All Shadows, when they are on the verge of going berserk, are trying to incite those who they came from.
 

EMT0

Banned
Okay then apparently we played different games. Because a Shadow very obviously served that role to the characters. Yousuke is a friendly dude, his shadow is a jerkass. This is because
Yousuke is discontent with his boring ass life in this town.
Yu is a super cool guy, so his foil in the plot isn't. Ta-da

I'm sorry I'm not a fucking psyche major.

YEESH.

It's not about being a psychology major, dude.
Shadows aren't literal opposites; they're a person's inner thoughts taken form that are corrupted in order to cause a person to lose their shit. Rise ain't a stripper, Kanji doesn't yearn to be over the top gay; rather, that's their greatest fear. But, in that fear, there's an inkling of truth. Rise's job as an idol has her body in the spotlight at all. Kanji's hobbies aren't the most traditionally masculine. Like I said, it's a corruption of the true inner self. Not quite opposites.
 

Sophia

Member
I'm sorry I'm not a fucking psyche major.

YEESH.

I'll come back to the thread when you don't have to have a fucking college education to talk about a video game. God damn.

This is precisely why Persona 4 Golden includes Edogawa's lessons on Jungian concepts. It is a great and easy way to better understand some of the underlying psychology without needing a college education. =P

It's not about being a psychology major, dude.
Shadows aren't literal opposites; they're a person's inner thoughts taken form that are corrupted in order to cause a person to lose their shit. Rise ain't a stripper, Kanji doesn't yearn to be over the top gay; rather, that's their greatest fear. But, in that fear, there's an inkling of truth. Rise's job as an idol has her body in the spotlight at all. Kanji's hobbies aren't the most traditionally masculine. Like I said, it's a corruption of the true inner self. Not quite opposites.
The core of a shadow is fear

It's what a person is scared exists as a part of them

To be more exact in this. Shadows, as in the Jungian psychology meaning, are aspects of an individual's personality that are not recognized by the conscious ego. It is not quite "fear" or "rejection", and the aspects need not always be negative ones, just merely ones that for whatever reason have not surfaced in daily life.
 
I never payed attention to the psychology lessons in Persona 3/4 just like my real life psych classes. I was a Biology major.

I just find it refreshing that a video game series uses psychology in an interesting way.
 

Acid08

Banned
I don't like Mitsuru's design in P4A. Her fur coat and onesie are dumb as fuck. Random, but I was just thinking about that game.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
This new Sho guy is cray cray. He can combo from a super into his super from his super into another super? What a weirdo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EzCqhbd4m4

EDIT: Oh, it starts from a fatal, lol.

It's interesting how barely anyone plays Persona-less Sho from the vids I've seen. I guess teleport shenanigans are preferred over whatever advantages normal Sho has.

I don't like Mitsuru's design in P4A. Her fur coat and onesie are dumb as fuck. Random, but I was just thinking about that game.

Seeing Mitsuru's win quote against Yukari makes me like it more:
Mitsuru vs. Yukari:
"Is that...a new type of battle jacket? We should make it standard issue. Please take it into consideration."

She just doesn't know what the hell she's doing when it comes to how she dresses. It actually might be an optimal suit for battle (aside from the fur coat), too.
 
Since my internet is totally crapping out right now and not letting me search, do Yukari and Junpei have shadows in P4A2? After P3 (major spoilers obviously)
shouldn't their arcs be finished? Unless Yukari still can't get over Makoto (even though she was supposed to after the answer)/her inability to save everyone so he can return. Junpei's should be completely over though.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
Since my internet is totally crapping out right now and not letting me search, do Yukari and Junpei have shadows in P4A2? After P3 (major spoilers obviously)
shouldn't their arcs be finished? Unless Yukari still can't get over Makoto (even though she was supposed to after the answer)/her inability to save everyone so he can return. Junpei's should be completely over though.

One of the main points of P4A is that one never "defeats" their Shadow; it always looms throughout one's life, ready to take advantage of a person during moments of weakness (which is all too true).

So yes, they do.

ibrwBhbKQfNZC1.gif


The spoiler marked isn't what their Shadows represent, though.
 
But man, my bro Junpei went through enough shit already. He's just enjoying his new job as a baseball coach he doesn't need to deal with anymore psychological issues!

Edit: I guess I just don't want their shadows to be representative of the exact same stuff they got over in P3. I understand the bit about the shadow's permanence and how you never really "conquer" it but it just seems a bit... repetitive, I guess?
 
This new Sho guy is cray cray. He can combo from a super into his super from his super into another super? What a weirdo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EzCqhbd4m4

EDIT: Oh, it starts from a fatal, lol.

LoL, don't think that 69 combo will happen if ever in the game aganist a computer or real player. But still funny that he can do that.

Also.....A message from Mastema
Oh man I can't stop laughing at this.
 
Guess what, folks? It's officially my birthday today. I'm gonna spend the day downtown with my friends and then go back home and watch Hot Fuzz on Blu-Ray for the 27th time.

Oh, and there will be candy.

Lots.

And lots.

Of candy.

I have a sweet tooth the size of East Texas :3
 
Guess what, folks? It's officially my birthday today. I'm gonna spend the day downtown with my friends and then go back home and watch Hot Fuzz on Blu-Ray for the 27th time.

Oh, and there will be candy.

Lots.

And lots.

Of candy.

I have a sweet tooth the size of East Texas :3

Happy birthday, man!
 

Acid08

Banned
Guess what, folks? It's officially my birthday today. I'm gonna spend the day downtown with my friends and then go back home and watch Hot Fuzz on Blu-Ray for the 27th time.

Oh, and there will be candy.

Lots.

And lots.

Of candy.

I have a sweet tooth the size of East Texas :3
YOU DA MAN!
 

Gazoinks

Member
Guess what, folks? It's officially my birthday today. I'm gonna spend the day downtown with my friends and then go back home and watch Hot Fuzz on Blu-Ray for the 27th time.

Oh, and there will be candy.

Lots.

And lots.

Of candy.

I have a sweet tooth the size of East Texas :3

Happy birthday!

My own birthday is in six days. :p Anyone else got birthdays in this vicinity?
 
Guess what, folks? It's officially my birthday today. I'm gonna spend the day downtown with my friends and then go back home and watch Hot Fuzz on Blu-Ray for the 27th time.

Oh, and there will be candy.

Lots.

And lots.

Of candy.

I have a sweet tooth the size of East Texas :3
HAPPY BIRTHDAY SCRAFTY!!!!!!
 

Squire

Banned
Guess what, folks? It's officially my birthday today. I'm gonna spend the day downtown with my friends and then go back home and watch Hot Fuzz on Blu-Ray for the 27th time.

Oh, and there will be candy.

Lots.

And lots.

Of candy.

I have a sweet tooth the size of East Texas :3

A man of simple tastes, really.

Happy birthday, you devil, you. :)
 
Thanks, guys. I may make myself out to be da man sometimes, but da real man is all of you :)

Shutupitsoundedbetterinmyheadyoujerkfacesomgworstbirthdayever
 

TWILT

Banned
Guess what, folks? It's officially my birthday today. I'm gonna spend the day downtown with my friends and then go back home and watch Hot Fuzz on Blu-Ray for the 27th time.

Oh, and there will be candy.

Lots.

And lots.

Of candy.

I have a sweet tooth the size of East Texas :3

Happy birthday bro!

Check your Steam sometime~.
 
Guess what, folks? It's officially my birthday today. I'm gonna spend the day downtown with my friends and then go back home and watch Hot Fuzz on Blu-Ray for the 27th time.

Oh, and there will be candy.

Lots.

And lots.

Of candy.

I have a sweet tooth the size of East Texas :3

Happy Birthday buddy! Hot Fuzz + candy = best bday ever.
 
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