She's not bad, but let's not get crazy here.
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Persona Community Thread: The Butterfly Effect
- Thread starter Dantis
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cj_iwakura
Member
Saori is the best S Link across all games.
because forced heteronormativity is so much better ?_?
cj_iwakura
Member
When most gay relationships come across as forced as opposed to the opposite feeling natural? I'd say so, yes. If you can't make it work, don't do it.
cj_iwakura
Member
If you can't do something right, it's best not to do it at all.
nobody will ever know if they can't do it right or not if they continue to ignore the existence of these groups of people
Kanji, or even Yosuke, would have been the best chance of going that route if they wanted to.
Who knows, it's possible they will in the future, especially with all the dialogue people had after 4's release about Kanji. There is a point about trying to force it just for the sake of doing so though. Taking characters we know aren't that way and making them that way just cause there's suddenly a female MC certainly qualifies as "forcing". It's why I like that they made sure Junpei couldn't be romanced in the female MC route, even if it was something they apparently decided against at the last minute.
Who knows, it's possible they will in the future, especially with all the dialogue people had after 4's release about Kanji. There is a point about trying to force it just for the sake of doing so though. Taking characters we know aren't that way and making them that way just cause there's suddenly a female MC certainly qualifies as "forcing". It's why I like that they made sure Junpei couldn't be romanced in the female MC route, even if it was something they apparently decided against at the last minute.
cj_iwakura
Member
Well, WRPGs sure don't have a good track record of it, may as well let Atlus try.
cj_iwakura
Member
Bloodlines is good at everything.
SloaneRisette
Member
Skyrim is good tho
No it's not
KOTOR 2 is good though, although it doesn't exactly go into any deep romance options, from what I remember.
cj_iwakura
Member
why would you change the nature of man if you can eat steak with chie
cj_iwakura
Member
I was referring to Nines being the most badass anarch ever, but that works too.
eating steak with Chie is better than high-concept sludge yea
Agreed.
I have no problem with gay characters in games, but doing it for the sake of doing it is dumb. If you design a character and say "This character should be gay because that's the direction I want to take creatively", then that's excellent. If you design a character and say "This character should be gay because gay characters are rarely portrayed well and I want to make statement", that's probably stupid.
I feel like the whole point is that sexuality, gender etc. etc. are points which should become irrelevant. I don't want to praise somebody because "Wow, you guys tried doing a trans character to say something about how it's okay to be trans" if the execution is nothing special. Characters should be defined by character, not check lists to appease political correctness.
Given the IMMENSE amount of media and writing from people using high school as a metaphor for coming-of-age stories, I think it's safe to say that for the majority, it's definitely a worldview-changer.
Hell, why wouldn't it be? Hormones running wild, losing your virginity, falling for your first love, first time sneaking out behind parents' backs, first time getting drunk at that party you weren't supposed to be at, first time having your heart broken...
Even if you yourself did not experience those at that exact time, you must admit that many, many, many others did, thus why it's so relatable as a theme.
Let's just be honest: the target audience for Jrpgs is not going to be working/married people in their 30s. They're not going to have the time and energy to invest in a 60 hour game when the baby needs changing and work needs more hours. It's teenagers who have the liquid cash and time to invest in games like this. So they'll always be the target audience. This has been the case for 20 years now. It's not going to change because one particular demographic is older, because there's always a younger one ready to fill the gap. And teenagers want teenage characters. Even someone 21 is too old, sometimes.
Unless it's both
There's no reason a 'statement' character can't still be a good character. It's somewhat rarer, but if someone at Rockstar woke up one day and decided "I want the next mainline GTA game to star an asian female protagonist for reasons" but proceeded to write, well, a pretty good standard asian female protagonist, that'd be rad.
Open world games that involve a set protagonist don't tend to use females, hmmm... the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Saint's Row, and that's a customisable avatar game (and each of the voices has their own little quirks. Troy Baker and Laura Bailey have a set, actually, but I always use Hispanic Female)
There's no reason a 'statement' character can't still be a good character. It's somewhat rarer, but if someone at Rockstar woke up one day and decided "I want the next mainline GTA game to star an asian female protagonist for reasons" but proceeded to write, well, a pretty good standard asian female protagonist, that'd be rad.
Open world games that involve a set protagonist don't tend to use females, hmmm... the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Saint's Row, and that's a customisable avatar game (and each of the voices has their own little quirks. Troy Baker and Laura Bailey have a set, actually, but I always use Hispanic Female)
they likely portrayed straight characters for the sake of doing it, so
this is easy to say when your identity and place in the world are never marginalized
oh dear.
It's the kind of games where you can have simulated sex with a robot, a 12 years old shota and a harem of 12 girls lust after your personality-less self-insert, i don't see how adding a gay relationship would be too much of a problem.
If anything it's offensive that it isn't already there, stop implying shit Atlus and let the male MC date Ryouji/Theodore too.
If anything it's offensive that it isn't already there, stop implying shit Atlus and let the male MC date Ryouji/Theodore too.
No, but in Dantis's second example I read "A character who's only going to be gay cause they're rare in games", not that they were designed from the ground up with that in mind. In other words, something done almost as an afterthought to make the character more interesting or something.
Whatever Kanji is, he's interesting because of his hobbies and how he tried to force others to not look at him so he could do what he wanted and not be criticized for it. That there's further reasoning behind that adds more layers to him. If all he was was "You sayin' I like DUDES", then meh.
Guess the point is to not have the "token" whatever character, who's only defining characteristic is that. Honestly, I don't think this is something we need to worry about with this franchise.
Whatever Kanji is, he's interesting because of his hobbies and how he tried to force others to not look at him so he could do what he wanted and not be criticized for it. That there's further reasoning behind that adds more layers to him. If all he was was "You sayin' I like DUDES", then meh.
Guess the point is to not have the "token" whatever character, who's only defining characteristic is that. Honestly, I don't think this is something we need to worry about with this franchise.
do you think they consciously make characters straight or do they default to it because it's the norm? only one of these choices makes sense.
They default to it because it's the norm, and because most of the developers are likely straight themselves.
Are you saying that Atlus should say "Wait, all our characters are straight, so we should throw in a gay character too"?
Like I say, it should be based on character. You want to make a character who is gay or trans or whatever? Go for it. You want to make all straight characters? That's totally cool too.
Not everything needs to be a statement.
how about "not every person in the world is straight and at least a few of our players will not be straight, so they should have a character they can identify with in this game that emphasizes personal relationships"
maybe just like the rest of the characters that are designed for certain people to identify with... whoa
Because it's the norm.
Variety is nice, and it would be nice if they didn't leave Kanji as vague overall. But it didn't need to be hashed out. You're only given a calendar year to figure these characters out, and considering Kanji didn't even start questioning til the game started, I think it was handled right.
What you DON'T want is a character like Kaiden from ME, who was vanilla and bland in the first two games then suddenly gay in the last, just cause.
that has to do with bad writing. nobody here wants bad writing.
Naoto and Kanji start out with a lot of questions about sexuality and gender and they both come up with answers that don't seem natural to their character. Atlus went far enough to imply these things, but their storylines ultimately take different directions. It doesn't feel genuine.
A narrative shouldn't be compromised to by an agenda, but Persona both alludes to, and outright fashions certain scenarios, only to abruptly abandon them.
I can see why some would feel that a certain aspect being pushed would threaten the makeup of the franchise, but its hard to feel that strongly about that, especially when it seemingly lacks conviction with how it has chosen to portray those elements in the past. Its more irritating to see them badly flirt with those ideas.
I can see why some would feel that a certain aspect being pushed would threaten the makeup of the franchise, but its hard to feel that strongly about that, especially when it seemingly lacks conviction with how it has chosen to portray those elements in the past. Its more irritating to see them badly flirt with those ideas.
Ha.
Absolutely not. They should make what they want to make, and what they think people will like.
so you are supporting unreasonable exclusion (given the paths the franchise has taken in the past, it is not like this is a drastic change) of minority groups?
cj_iwakura
Member
Have you played Innocent Sin?
sex with robots?
It's not real love if its programmed.
On the flipside, do you think they MUST include a gay character because there hasn't been one in the spotlight before(even though I think there was in the early ones, wasn't there?)?
I don't agree that Kanji didn't go far enough, just that it wasn't there to begin with.
How much of Kanji for example is just us seeing how his shadow behaved, and then deciding "Well, he MUST be gay!" We know somewhat what shadows are in that they're hidden sides ramped up to 11. The interesting thing to wonder is would Kanji's shadow had even been like that if it wasn't for the interaction with Naoto just before that? He likes hobbies that have been classified as "feminine", and even likes cute things, which societies labels as also "feminine". Does that make his sexual preference that way too, or do we try to read too much into his shadow and hammer at something that isn't really there?
why does it have to be about the "spotlight" and not about giving all players an equal choice in a "Role Playing Game" that has an emphasis on personal relationships?
cj_iwakura
Member
Bears repeating: have you played Innocent Sin?
ScraftyDevil
Banned
IS is an example of it not being in the spotlight, and it was under player action that it happens too.
If you mean why hasn't it happened in a modern persona yet, maybe the situation just hasn't really presented itself yet. /shrug
And how much of the Troy Baker thing comes from Atlus telling him to play his Shadow like that? At any rate, I personally think he's at least Bi, even if it's not explicitly stated, but I don't need it to be either.
partially, plays like shovelware, did not continue
cj_iwakura
Member
That has exactly what you're asking for.
In what sense? I feel like you're obfuscating the original point.
Given the last part of the new PSP opening, you could argue that it was intended too, even if it's left to player choice.
One of the characters you meet up with (towards the end) is gay and you can choose whom you have feelings for with him being one of the choices.
Ha. Good try, but no. It's not for or against. There's nothing to this conversation.
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