I'm aware of the plot points, but I was just clarifying what was actually referenced.
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Persona Community Thread: The Butterfly Effect
- Thread starter Dantis
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I'm aware of the plot points, but I was just clarifying what was actually referenced.
good non-response
cj_iwakura
Member
It has a male protagonist with a male love interest entirely left up to the player's choice, and the interest in question is a normal person, not a forced archetype.
Way to shove words into his mouth. You're obviously close to this argument in some way but please try to stop twisting what people say.
Gay relationships in these games would be great. Would I choose to engage? No, I'm not gay and that wouldn't be true to my character(if the MC is male) or personality. The choice for it to be present would be nice for the people who want it though.
Ideally there should ultimately be two solutions to applicable social links instead of just the one path you take through.
1. Relationship(gay or straight)
2. Friendship
And the dialogue options should be good enough to differentiate the two.
buddha0991
Member
Hey guys wha-oh.
Anyway, I feel like they didn't include that stuff for the female in P3P because the male didn't have any. I do think they should include some homosexual relationships in P5 but try to make them as natural as they can. Like CJ said, Innocent Sin had a good one even if relationships weren't the focus in that game.
Also I still don't get the whole "doesn't ring true" thing of Kanji and Naoto's sexuality.
Anyway, I feel like they didn't include that stuff for the female in P3P because the male didn't have any. I do think they should include some homosexual relationships in P5 but try to make them as natural as they can. Like CJ said, Innocent Sin had a good one even if relationships weren't the focus in that game.
I also think they should downplay relationships a bit in 5!
Jesus, it's not that hard. Take a S.link, add romantic undertones toward the 8/9/10 rank in some cases they are already there, see Yosuke and a "And then they fucked... the end!" like any other romance. It doesn't even have to be a party member, just any one of the other 3434534 characters in the game. It makes people feel included and allow them to play a character more true to themselves.
cj_iwakura
Member
It's there in P2, shame you consider it shovelware, but you do seem to have extremely high standards with RPGs.
Not really interested in debating here, but why are people lumping Naoto with Kanji when talking about sexuality? Naoto's issues had nothing to do with sexuality; she dressed and acted like a man because she didn't think that a women could be the "ideal detective" and ultimately didn't want to be underestimated in her field of work.
PS: I'm definitely going to engage in a relationship with Jun when I get the chance to in P2.
PS: I'm definitely going to engage in a relationship with Jun when I get the chance to in P2.
buddha0991
Member
"You spent a long time with INSERTNAMEHERE."
I have high standards with everything
people don't bind their chest and present as male in public just because they think the next sherlock holmes can't be a girl
No, they do it so they won't be ridiculed and immediately dismissed, something that's a problem when your whole job is interacting with people to get clues. That was Naoto's whole point, really. Not much different than in old times when women who wanted to fight in wars or whatever dressed as guys too.
On that note, more character interaction that wasn't involving the MC would have been neat. Chie wants to be a cop, so would've been interesting to hear her thoughts on what Naoto was doing. That's what you get for introducing a party member with like 2 months left.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
Gender roles are way different in Japan than in North America/most of Europe. I'm just going off of a few essays I've read so correct me if I'm wrong, but due to the current state of gender inequality in Japan, Naoto's chances of becoming a successful detective rose exponentially if she presented herself as a man. Her interactions with her Shadow and lovers scenes with the Brotagonist show that she has no desire to become a male as well, so all in all I think it's rather evident that Naoto only acted like a male in order to further her career while avoiding misogynistic roadblocks.
cj_iwakura
Member
Except punctuation!
She doesn't do any of these things at home though, she says as much in Persona 4. Naoto genuinely believed that as long as she was a girl, she could never achieve her dreams of being a great detective. (which correct me if i'm wrong, it's much harder to get anywhere in law enforcement as a female). I distinctively remember her saying that she didn't want to become a male after defeating a shadow, but instead wanted to be accepted.
EDIT: Meia and Scrafty said it better hehe.
cj_iwakura
Member
We'll chalk that up to laziness then.
buddha0991
Member
The shadows are all twisted over the top.
Chie didn't want to become a dominatrix, Yukiko didn't want to become totally dependant on someone wanting go wisk her away from Inaba, Kanji didn't want to become hyper flamboyant and run around a bath house, Rise didn't want to become a stripper, Teddie isn't some ultra nihilist.
What could have been...
I swear to god, they should have done with Yosuke. Like I mentioned a few pages back, there's evidence that they thought about making a lovers route for him, but ended up backing out for whatever. I'm not even a yaoi shipper, but a lovers route for Yosuke would have been legitimately amazing if they pulled it off correctly. Like, could you imagine the night events or the special events that change between him if you're dating?
EDIT: I guess that applies to Kanji too, heh.
( ≖‿≖
cj_iwakura
Member
It would be really interesting if you could pursue Kanji and then he turns you down, deciding he's really not into guys. Would crush a lot of hopes and dreams, but imagine the depth it could give to relationship social links; not everyone magically loves you. (Ai was a nice step in this direction.)
buddha0991
Member
What I want for P5 if they are gonna stick with the slink stuff, and you all know they will, is for them to feel more alive. You should be able to hang out with a group, make calls to friends, have them reject your skink asking, they should have other friends, before it was like none of them hung out with anyone but the MC, it was weird.
buddha0991
Member
They don't have slinks, they have normal friendships that don't boost your powers, Yu for secretly power hungry manipulator.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
Yu is secretly an Incubus.
They ultimately, for the better of the game as a whole, need to get past the idea of being able to max every Slink in the game in one playthrough. And this is coming from someone who's NEVER played a modern persona game without maxing everyone every single time.
Have them be busier with RL more often. If characters are friends(Chie/Yukiko), have them seen around town or something hanging out, not waiting by a phone or at specific points waiting for you to come a callin'. Heck, have characters actually form relationships themselves if there's possibility there(if you play matchmaker or if it happens naturally), and then have the MC deal with the fallout of getting in-between something like that.
It's a good system that could be made great with some depth, but I think that "But then you can't max EVERYONE" kind of holds them back. Heck, if nothing else it gives another reason for multiple playthroughs. It's how I kind of played Mass Effect, really.
This would be Yu's Shadow if we ever got one in game.
Have them be busier with RL more often. If characters are friends(Chie/Yukiko), have them seen around town or something hanging out, not waiting by a phone or at specific points waiting for you to come a callin'. Heck, have characters actually form relationships themselves if there's possibility there(if you play matchmaker or if it happens naturally), and then have the MC deal with the fallout of getting in-between something like that.
It's a good system that could be made great with some depth, but I think that "But then you can't max EVERYONE" kind of holds them back. Heck, if nothing else it gives another reason for multiple playthroughs. It's how I kind of played Mass Effect, really.
Yu is secretly an Incubus.
This would be Yu's Shadow if we ever got one in game.
"Atluss should be more inclusive" = "They should adopt a social agenda"
OR
"Well, it's in Innocent Sin"
Both are awful responses I'm glad I missed.
Jesus Christ, you guys. We can love them and still ask them to better. It's not that hard. Even Keiichi can see that. Like, come on.
OR
"Well, it's in Innocent Sin"
Both are awful responses I'm glad I missed.
Jesus Christ, you guys. We can love them and still ask them to better. It's not that hard. Even Keiichi can see that. Like, come on.
buddha0991
Member
Hell, if they are gonna commit to having the game revolve around relationships, they should not make every single female go crazy for you after hanging out with them 8 times. There should be characters that hit on you but are just fooling around or messing with you, characters that are shy and never admit their feelings even at rank max, characters that casually like you and want to date and see how it goes, characters that fall head over heels, and characters that simply show now interest at all. On both genders. You should be able to ask to try a relationship at any rank, and have it pass or fail. I don't think the series should revolve around relationships, but that's the way it is gonna be, so they should go all out with it. Either go all out or don't have them at all is my mantra.
Agreed 100%. For what games are, they have a great base. Probably the best. The improvement from P3 to P4 is tangible and the goal should be to get better. You only do that by going further.
Kanji and Naoto keep being referenced because they symbolize Atlus touching on that inclusiveness, but not embracing it fully.
Which isn't surprising when you look at some reactions. "Kanji isn't gay! He's just CONFUSED!!!"
Yes, that's exactly it! Never mind that the subtext argues the opposite entirely!
I think Naoto's story bothers me more than Kanji's. Ultimately the way they handled her story is what trivializes Kanji's.
SloaneRisette
Member
I read this as NAMATAME at first and was kind of "what"
No fighting!
Atlus's problem is the fact that they include LGBT diversity but hardly ever commit to it. Which is why people interpret Kanji and Naoto's situations in so many different ways.
Either someone is gay or their not. Either someone is trans or they're not. Things like this shouldn't be danced around and left up to the players imagination the way Atlus did in P4.
Atlus's problem is the fact that they include LGBT diversity but hardly ever commit to it. Which is why people interpret Kanji and Naoto's situations in so many different ways.
Either someone is gay or their not. Either someone is trans or they're not. Things like this shouldn't be danced around and left up to the players imagination the way Atlus did in P4.
"We will begin the procedure transform the patients gender!" (Remember, Shadow is the reflection of the true self)
"Do you like me better as a boy or a girl?"
"Do you like my voice deeper or higher?"
And a whle plethora of other things, IE: all the characters suddenly referring to Naoto as 'she' without asking/confirming.
Nothing at all like Mulan.
The thing is, the whole 'shadow being the reflection of the true self' goes against that entirely.
A lot of people interpreted it the way you did, which was my original point, Atlus didn't commit to anything with Naoto's character. Which is the problematic part.
They let the player decide if it was "ok" for Naoto to be a man or a woman in the sLink, and that's pretty messed up.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
Exactly. I think the issue is a lot less complex as people make it out to be; many just see her wearing men's clothing and going "OMG she's trans" as a kneejerm reaction. I know a few transgender people, and they don't really act the way Naoto does at all (i.e. they're extremely confident in their chosen gender and don't ask people which one they "prefer").
I'm almost certain it's a gender roles thing. There's so much evidence supporting it.
buddha0991
Member
Did you miss how they are not entirely truthful and twist the meaning of what they are saying into something else many times?
Probably mean P4 proper, though.
I've always lamented over the fact that Yu didn't get a shadow in the original P4 game. I know WHY it was done (Persona = Shadow, Izanagi was already obtained when he
shook hands with izanami
snow in jamaica
Member
it's not concrete and could easily support her devotion to her chosen occupation.
Fact: P4 would be improved if it had a talking dragon voiced by Eddie Murphy.
I agree, but I think the issue is in what it reflects. Naoto hates being treated poorly because she's a young woman; I don't think she sees being a man as important to her sexual identity. I used the Mulan example because both want to pursue professions that aren't traditionally associated with their genders in their respective cultures.
I interpreted that scene as Naoto questioning whether being a tomboy was more attractive to Yu or not. Post-P4 she's still a girl and in the epilogue more openly flaunts it in her attire regardless of how you respond.
I agree, but I think the issue is in what it reflects. Naoto hates being treated poorly because she's a young woman; I don't think she sees being a man as important to her sexual identity. I used the Mulan example because both want to pursue professions that aren't traditionally associated with their genders in their respective cultures.
I interpreted that scene as Naoto questioning whether being a tomboy was more attractive to Yu or not. Post-P4 she's still a girl and in the epilogue more openly flaunts it in her attire regardless of how you respond.
buddha0991
Member
I think that P5 should have a Dragon demon on your team voiced by Eddy Murphy.
snow in jamaica
Member
eddie murphy long as an independent persona?
It wouldn't make much sense, because Yu barely had any personality in the game and it was the anime and P4A that cemented who he was, as well as additions in P4G. Tatsuya had a fleshed out personality, so that's why it worked in his case.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
Wait, your Samael wasn't voiced by Eddie Murphy?!
SloaneRisette
Member
That was only for the Limited Edition.
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