Phil Spencer on Halo 2 Anniversary

The Pit had the same problem most Halo 3 maps did, which is that there were entire sections of the map that were totally cut off from the rest. Look at the great maps in Halo 2 - Midship, Lockout, Sanctuary, Coagulation, Warlock, Containment, etc. - there were few places to hide, and you there were plenty of angles to shoot across the map (this isn't to say that there weren't bad maps in H2, because there absolutely were). Halo 3 was not like this, they just generally had a lack of map flow. The Pit had a gigantic wall stuck in the middle which eliminated almost all cross map combat, Construct was almost two separate maps stapled together (the bottom and top floors had a floor between them, cutting off all angles), Isolation had a similar problem, Guardian had none of the angles and map flow that made Lockout great, Narrows had so few angles to attack from and had terrible issues with spawn camping, etc.

And one of the most annoying problems in H3 that was universal to all maps, was the tiny little cracks in the geometry that would completely fuck up your grenade bounces.

Great post. Halo 3's maps were too straight-forward IMO and came down to either passive standoff gameplay or linear aggression. The game was definitely entertaining in its time, but it's easy to see when the decline of the series began to accelerate - at least in regards to its map design.
 

DJ Gunner

Member
Nope. Played 10,000 games of Halo 2, close to 5,000 games of Halo 3 and several thousand of Reach. I love(d) the series as much as anyone. But to try to honestly say Halo 3 had good maps is laughable hyperbole in itself. The remakes were all sub-par compared to what came before. Somehow shit like Guardian (a piss poor "successor" to Lockout that misses the entire point of what made Lockout great), Epitaph (what the fuck where they thinking?) Construct (lol) and Valhalla (is this supposed to be a good successor to Coagulation?) made it through and are heralded by players that either never played Halo 2 and experienced its great maps, or have battered wife syndrome.



This represents exactly how I and many of my friends feel. For a large population of folks that started with Halo 2, nothing- not even 3- has come close. 3's maps, netcode and BR were all substandard compared to 2 (and for netcode, that's really saying something).

Halo 2's worst maps were better than many of 3's "classics" and far outshined any map from Reach or 4.
 

scently

Member
True, but the key is to read between the lines!

Anyway, enjoy.

(I've only ever played halo 3,4,odst,reach, and wars). Crazy right?

Curious post. Is it possible that this year's Halo is a sequel to Halo 4 but not called 5? If so, where does that leave H2A?
 
Haven is a lousy doubles map though, and experiencing such games has made me despise the map entirely.

To be fair, doubles has been pretty awful in general after H2. Maps got way too big. Haven isn't the one man army of a map that Middy and Warlock were, but it's definitely a huge improvement over H3 and Reach's piss poor competitive 4v4 offerings.
 
But to try to honestly say Halo 3 had good maps is laughable hyperbole in itself. The remakes were all sub-par compared to what came before. Somehow shit like Guardian (a piss poor "successor" to Lockout that misses the entire point of what made Lockout great), Epitaph (what the fuck where they thinking?) Construct (lol) and Valhalla (is this supposed to be a good successor to Coagulation?) made it through and are heralded by players that either never played Halo 2 and experienced its great maps, or have battered wife syndrome.
I don't understand why you're still so angry when you talk about this game seven years after it's been released. There were plenty of great maps in Halo 3: Guardian, The Pit, Valhalla, Longshore, Ghost Town, Avalanche, Rat's Nest, Assembly, Citadel, Cold Storage, and Heretic (Halo 2 level, granted).
Dynamic is adding a gate to be unlocked to get a warthog into a base to steal a flag or plant a bomb. Dynamic is having a button to lower a gate to get firepower into a massive base. Dynamic is having an unlockable teleporter to better sneak into a base. Dynamic is having a train to come through the middle of the map. Dynamic is having a moving elevator that can hinder or hurt weapon strategy. Guess what, only one of those were in Halo 3 -- in a sub-par remake.
High Ground, Longshore...
The Pit had the same problem most Halo 3 maps did, which is that there were entire sections of the map that were totally cut off from the rest. Look at the great maps in Halo 2 - Midship, Lockout, Sanctuary, Coagulation, Warlock, Containment, etc. - there were few places to hide, and you there were plenty of angles to shoot across the map (this isn't to say that there weren't bad maps in H2, because there absolutely were).
If you're talking about few places to hide and spaces on maps that aren't totally cut off from the rest of the map, I wouldn't put Warlock, Containment, Coagulation, or Sanctuary on that list. Plenty of places to hide in those maps.
 
Titanfall and Sunset Overdrive are bigger games too. I think ntkrnl said SO was getting the big bundle/special edition console this fall.

Obviously Titanfall but I think the poster I was replying to was specifically referring to E3 announcements / games that release toward the end of the year. I think Microsoft will put marketing dollars behind Sunset Overdrive or Quantum Break over H2A.
 
Nope. Played 10,000 games of Halo 2, close to 5,000 games of Halo 3 and several thousand of Reach. I love(d) the series as much as anyone. But to try to honestly say Halo 3 had good maps is laughable hyperbole in itself. The remakes were all sub-par compared to what came before. Somehow shit like Guardian (a piss poor "successor" to Lockout that misses the entire point of what made Lockout great), Epitaph (what the fuck where they thinking?) Construct (lol) and Valhalla (is this supposed to be a good successor to Coagulation?) made it through and are heralded by players that either never played Halo 2 and experienced its great maps, or have battered wife syndrome.



You mean "stinking," right? Let's camp in the sword tower and see any approach to that side of the map. Let's camp in the sword room and control that whole building. Let's spawn some mother fuckers in the ridiculous attics with BRs so they can rain hell down upon anyone with absolute security. Let's make it damn near impossible without MLG alterations to get a flag out of the base because of that ridiculous drop off. The map is overrated as shit and is only looked upon fondly because of how bad everything else was in that game. Heretic is still the best 4v4 map and it's a sub-part remake.
Thank heavens we have you to come along, pass judgement and tell us we suffer from " battered wife syndrome".
 
To be fair, doubles has been pretty awful in general after H2. Maps got way too big. Haven isn't the one man army of a map that Middy and Warlock were, but it's definitely a huge improvement over H3 and Reach's piss poor competitive 4v4 offerings.

very true. maps keep increasing, which isnt exactly what halo specializes in imo. as interesting as large infantry and vehicular battles could be should the series go that route, i hope future games dont abandon the smaller maps and gametypes entirely.
 
very true. maps keep increasing, which isnt exactly what halo specializes in imo. as interesting as large infantry and vehicular battles could be should the series go that route, i hope future games dont abandon the smaller maps and gametypes entirely.

I think they should do what battlefield does and put the arena maps within larger maps, assuming you're expecting a much larger player count for BTB.
 
The same spanish retailer which leaked TLOU for PS4 already had an H2A available for pre-order.

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Chettlar

Banned
Please tell me that key art is their own mock-up. Please tell me I'm not seeing Halo 4 Master Chief on that cover.

Of course it's a mockup. The Last of Us cover likely is too. That doesn't mean the listing is fake, though of course it could be anyway.
 

Striker

Member
I cannot stand the look of that black and grey design they did for Halo: CEA. I hope they don't repeat the same for Halo 2 Anny.
 

IHaveIce

Banned
People in here saying Swordbase is a good map or even peoiple who say Halo 4 has better maps than 3...smh

Even Countdown in Reach only worked without Radar and with a different weapon setup, Zealot was only good as Arena zealot, Sanctuary had framerate issues and was only playable in MLG, every other Reach map was terrible, especially cause of AAs.

Halo 4 has really only Haven( and through DLC Skyline and The Pit, forge doesn't count), while Halo 3 had The Pit, Guardian, Halo 3 had actually good maps for BTB(not as good as Halo 2 but whatever), good objective maps and through dlc it got Citadel and Midship.
 

KevinRo

Member
Halo2 multiplayer was such an awesome experience online...

Until the fucking modding and standbying came to fruition.

Still, when Halo3 and Reach came out, my friends and I would still bust out Halo:CE at LAN's.

No one wanted to touch Halo2.

Tells you something.
 

Jawmuncher

Member
Oh man that tease has me hyped.
Halo 2 MP on Xbox One would be my home for the longest. Still the only MP game that I ever had fun playing by myself. Those maps and the gameplay were a big part of it. They just felt perfect to me.
 

Striker

Member
Halo comes down to pure objective games to me (basic settings, nothing MLG required), namely 2-flag, all forms of Assault, 1-flag, and 3 plots. The classic Oddball and KotH aren't bad, really, but don't stand out at all over the others. Plus you rarely find great Oddball or King maps. Off the top of my head, the only maps I've found enjoyable to play Oddball in throughout every Halo is Warlock and Midship. I thought King worked well on those same few maps plus Lockout and Turf. So to me very few maps were really great for those, so when I see Oddball forced onto a map like The Pit, which works fine for 2-flag, it sours the experience. There's too many hiding places and it's far too large. So something similar to King was 3 Plots, which was new. By using proper map size for this type of gametype and not using every single map for sake of variety (like we see now with Halo 4, i.e. Oddball on every single map) it worked really well. Turf/3 Plots is one of the best combos you'd find in Halo MP.

So that's why I reminisce so many Halo 2 maps. I can go through every single one sans Backwash and Gemini and find an exciting skirmish/objective gametype to go along with it. Many are extremely versatile for a variety of things like 2-flag, Neutral Assault, and 2-bomb. Like Sanctuary. And I have loved 1-flag and 1-bomb since I first really got into Headlong. In the game there's a wide array of maps that suit those things, too, really well. I don't know why, but Bungie really weakened that aspect for me in Halo 3 and further. Not just for smaller/midsize maps like Zanzibar and Ivory Tower, but for bigger maps like Headlong and Terminal too. Halo 3 didn't have any asymmetric 1-flag maps built for 16 players. Reach obviously shipped with nothing but forged maps. So I was really bummed when they continually kept dropping that sort of experience from the game. I don't care at all for slayer enough to play it all the time - every so often? Sure, but it doesn't grasp the excitement I get for flag and bomb. On top of that, the map and gametype combos for things like 2-flag and Assault (rip sticky arming) really dropped for Halo 3 and the later games as well. Sure I might like something like 2-flag The Pit or Zealot Neutral Bomb, but they've been so rare compared to what we had in Halo 2.

Not sure what the bolded is supposed to mean. I thought the laser on that map was a bit odd (though it makes sense when there's a mongoose), but not sure how that makes it a shit map. And what's wrong with there being a sniper on that map?
The bold meant they had a Spartan Laser spawn in one base at the start of the match, and the opposing base had a Beam Rifle. Shotgun spawned by the large shield door, which had a Brute Shot spawn on top of it.

Is it fair in any way that one team spawns with a sniper and the other does not? On a symmetrical map?
 

MysteryM

Member
The Pit had the same problem most Halo 3 maps did, which is that there were entire sections of the map that were totally cut off from the rest. Look at the great maps in Halo 2 - Midship, Lockout, Sanctuary, Coagulation, Warlock, Containment, etc. - there were few places to hide, and you there were plenty of angles to shoot across the map (this isn't to say that there weren't bad maps in H2, because there absolutely were). Halo 3 was not like this, they just generally had a lack of map flow. The Pit had a gigantic wall stuck in the middle which eliminated almost all cross map combat, Construct was almost two separate maps stapled together (the bottom and top floors had a floor between them, cutting off all angles), Isolation had a similar problem, Guardian had none of the angles and map flow that made Lockout great, Narrows had so few angles to attack from and had terrible issues with spawn camping, etc.

I'll summarise why l loved the pit, for the other guy that's banned as well as yourself.

The pit was built so that it allowed each team to defend there side, each side had a sniper spawn so a competent sniper could help the team out, as well as attack the sniper on the other side of the map. The room with the sort was a pinch point, with both teams attacking it early on to get the sword, slits were also present across the top of the sword room that allowed grenades to be thrown in just in case a player was camping with the sword. I've lost track of the amount of times I've taken out the sword guy by stripping down there shields with sensible grenade throws first.

The opposite side had a rocket spawn, another crunch point, and both sides had shotguns again to aid holding the sides.

I've had absolutely fantastic close fought games on the pit, with lots of strategic games where the kills on both teams are very close fought, when the score is neck and neck I can remember players running into the opposite side just to try and get the score back.

My favourite tactic was to take the sniper and then use the slits in the sword room to fire down the long straights on each side.

Its definitely a team map, and I'd say just as good as any maps I've played.

The banned guy with 10000 H2 games, my stats are similar:

Halo 2:
Total Games: 11519
Total Kills: 118094
K/D Ratio: 1.02

Halo 3:
6557 Games Played
K/D Ratio: 1.02

Total Halo Multiplayer Games: 20463
Total Kills: 222495
K/D Ratio: 1.03
 
Please just have the old halo 2 multiplayer (same mechanics, same feel, same everything) with modern visuals. Don't do something awful like halo 4 styled multiplayer but with halo 2 maps.
The way he mentioned the halo anniversary MP, I'm thinking that will be the case (Halo 4 with new maps)
 
Halo2 multiplayer was such an awesome experience online...

Until the fucking modding and standbying came to fruition.

Still, when Halo3 and Reach came out, my friends and I would still bust out Halo:CE at LAN's.

No one wanted to touch Halo2.

Tells you something.

Now just imagine if CE was the game on XBL that millions of players were exposed to.
 
As a person who didn't have my own Xbox Live account during the H2 days (played LAN and local only), I'm really looking forward for H2A. I'm sure Microsoft will let them use the Azure Servers. I'm really impressed on how well they're doing for Tianfall. Could be a game changer for arguably the best multiplayer game ever.
 
I hope it actually looks significantly nicer in SP as the Halo 1 Anniversary wasn't exactly a high achiever. Also hope we don't have to wait until E3 to see any screens...
 

Chettlar

Banned
The bold meant they had a Spartan Laser spawn in one base at the start of the match, and the opposing base had a Beam Rifle. Shotgun spawned by the large shield door, which had a Brute Shot spawn on top of it.

Is it fair in any way that one team spawns with a sniper and the other does not? On a symmetrical map?

Actually, if anything, I think it isn't fair the other way. If you get a spartan laser against a beam rifle (the most powerful sniper in the series), and the guy with the beam rifle is half decent at head shots, then he wins since he doesn't have to wait for the charge. It really can go either way.
 

Surface of Me

I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
I hope it actually looks significantly nicer in SP as the Halo 1 Anniversary wasn't exactly a high achiever. Also hope we don't have to wait until E3 to see any screens...

Well it will be on the X1 and not 360, and the rumors say it's on the Halo 4 engine? So probably use Halo 4 as a baseline to expect.
 

Chettlar

Banned
Well it will be on the X1 and not 360, and the rumors say it's on the Halo 4 engine? So probably use Halo 4 as a baseline to expect.

I don't recall anything about that. Either Frankie or that job listing quite a while back mentioned something about working on a next gen engine I thought.

Though it could possibly be based on the 4 engine which was in turn based on the Reach engine, but we'll see.

Either way, I expect H2A to look gorgeous.
 

Recall

Member
Am I the only one who thought Reach had some pretty good maps?

Halo Reach had plenty of great maps and excellent things about it. People just get in a tizzy because they didn't know how to adapt to the different loadouts.

For every person who tells me Reach is bad, yet 4 is good is one less person who I know I'll get along with.
 

Rockyrock

Member
And one of the most annoying problems in H3 that was universal to all maps, was the tiny little cracks in the geometry that would completely fuck up your grenade bounces.

This forever pissed me off to no end. Damn over textured maps.

Top mid on Guardian.... The horror, the horror.
 
This forever pissed me off to no end. Damn over textured maps.

Top mid on Guardian.... The horror, the horror.

Couple that with the weak ass Halo 3 grenades and you have a frustrating experience with everything involving grenades, a crucial part to Halo.

Yeah, I'm not sure how anyone can praise Halo 3 as a top Halo game if they've spent 3-6 years with the two games before it lol
 
Couple that with the weak ass Halo 3 grenades and you have a frustrating experience with everything involving grenades, a crucial part to Halo.

Yeah, I'm not sure how anyone can praise Halo 3 as a top Halo game if they've spent 3-6 years with the two games before it lol

Halo 2 nades were kind of overpowered. Also Halo 3 was great,not as good as Halo 2 but still great.
 
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