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Phoenix infant dies in hot car - second such death in city in 2 days (Read the OP)

Flo_Evans

Member
I think it's pretty telling that in basically every real-life situation where we're trying to make sure that people never, ever screw up, the approach we take is not "don't be irresponsible" but is instead "here is a checklist and you must rigorously adhere to it even if you're sure it'll be okay, or else you're going to get court-martialed".

Otherwise this is just the responsible gun owner problem. If the message you send people is that only irresponsible gun owners end up having a family member get shot, then people who think of themselves as responsible gun owners don't worry about it.

Well anyone could leave a loaded gun sitting out where a toddler could reach it. Its just science.

No we expect people to be responsible when it comes to deadly and dangerous things and fragile human life.

Cars in the summer (well really all the time) are deadly. They should be treated with the respect of a loaded weapon.

Its easy to blame the gun owner for a mistake when you don't own a weapon, but almost everyone has a car so you make excuses and say it could happen to anyone.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
This thread is depressing. My initial instinct was that the parents were negligent or just left the child in the car for convenience. It never occurred to me it could be something you could forget. Reading those articles as a father was heartbreaking
 

akileese

Member
Things I've forgotten to do or done wrong, the past year:

Left my work laptop at home, only realizing it when I arrived at work after a 45-minute commute. I can do zero work when I get there without it. I'd left it in a different part of the house than usual and didn't grab it on the way out the door.

Left my wallet at home when taking my daughter to a movie. I'd put it upstairs rather than next to my keys by the door (bought something online, left it by the computer). We missed that showing but went to the next.

Taken my older daughter to the middle school in the morning. She was a freshman. This was deep into the school year, but two years of muscle memory kicked in. She was on her phone and looked up and was like, "Dad. Wrong school?"

The list goes on. The first two were caused by small changes to my routine, but they resulted in me forgetting critical things that felt really dumb to do and obvious not to forget. The last one was just my normal routine kicking in: my wife takes Nat to school most days, until she started working this year and I did so on those days. But driving routines from the prior two years kicked in and off I went.

I'm not stupid and it certainly wasn't on purpose. Routine, fatigue and a stressful work schedule were contributing factors.

It's a pretty thin line between things like that and having a sleeping baby in the car while doing an activity during which I don't normally have a sleeping baby in the car, and forgetting about it. I read these stories and think, thank god I got through without ever doing that. Because I could have. Easily.

I'd never had or spent any large amount of time raising children before I'd met my wife four years ago. Her daughter from a previous relationship was 8 when I met her.

I used to think the same thing as most people, that it was negligent and criminal. My wife showed me stuff on forgotten baby syndrome and that wapo article and it kind of opened my eyes a bit. I would be out grocery shopping, notice my daughter wasn't around and wonder where she was before realizing I didn't even have her and she was at the house.

You're dead on about stress/fatigue. A large amount of fatigue and work (or personal life) related stress is enough to drastically change your brain chemistry. I can thankfully say I've never had a situation like leaving my kid at the store or anything like that, but I definitely took her to the wrong school (or waited for pickup at the wrong school) on a few occasions.
 

Gotchaye

Member
Well anyone could leave a loaded gun sitting out where a toddler could reach it. Its just science.

No we expect people to be responsible when it comes to deadly and dangerous things and fragile human life.

Cars in the summer (well really all the time) are deadly. They should be treated with the respect of a loaded weapon.

Its easy to blame the gun owner for a mistake when you don't own a weapon, but almost everyone has a car so you make excuses and say it could happen to anyone.
I think you missed the point, and pretty badly.

This stuff can happen to anyone. The solution is not to talk like anyone it happens to was irresponsible or else surely they'd have noticed. The solution is to set a new standard for responsibility which is going to strike most people as being ridiculously over-cautious. If we're going to say that this is a serious problem we need to solve, what we need to say is this: starting probably months before you actually have a kid, absolutely every time you get out of your car you should open up the back door and look around. It's failure to do this which is irresponsible. Never doing this and then happening to accidentally leave your kid in the car is no more irresponsible, just less lucky.
 

RPGCrazied

Member
I never understand these stories, how can you not know your child is in the car with you? And if you think you are forgetful, put something back there with him/her that you will get, be it a purse or something.
 
I never understand these stories, how can you not know your child is in the car with you? And if you think you are forgetful, put something back there with him/her that you will get, be it a purse or something.

If you'd read the thread there is plenty of discussion and links that would have answered your question.
 

Ushay

Member
As a father of 2, this absolutely infuriates me. 2 motherfucking hours. The parents are morons of the highest calibre.

Jesus.. How does one forget their own child, it's like the most intrinsic thing in your life.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
I never understand these stories, how can you not know your child is in the car with you? And if you think you are forgetful, put something back there with him/her that you will get, be it a purse or something.

There is ample information in both the OP, and the body of the thread, to answer this question.

As a father of 2, this absolutely infuriates me. 2 motherfucking hours. The parents are morons of the highest calibre.

Jesus.. How does one forget their own child, it's like the most intrinsic thing in your life.

I'm also a father of 2. I'm very grateful I did not do this because I absolutely could have.

Please take a few minutes to read some of the material in the OP (the WaPo article in particular), or some of the discussion that followed.

The people in question are not morons. A cursory review of the facts in this case and others will demonstrate this.
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I used to think it was bad parenting too. But if you think you're too smart or too good a parent for this to happen to you, you're setting yourself up for it to happen. Nobody is saying that a child's life is equal to car keys or wallets, but it's the exact same mechanism at play in your memory. Your brain coasts and cut corners for routine tasks, doesn't matter the importance of the cargo. Nobody wants to lose their wallet, so why would you forget where it's at? Because you weren't actively engaged with what you were doing when you set it down. Literally all it takes for this to happen is a phone call or distraction at the right moment to set someone off on the wrong path mentally.

You need to be scared or concerned this can happen because that might be the trigger that makes you check the backseat "just in case." If you brush these stories off, that trigger isn't there.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Sorry. Sometimes I just read the title and post. Still, leaving a baby in the car and forgetting about it is crazy.

That's it.

It's tragic, for sure. And mind-boggling and it feels irresponsible, until you read more about the hows and whys of it happening.

Here's the background of one such death, from the WaPo article:

There's a dismayingly cartoonish expression for what happened to Lyn Balfour on March 30, 2007. British psychologist James Reason coined the term the ”Swiss Cheese Model" in 1990 to explain through analogy why catastrophic failures can occur in organizations despite multiple layers of defense. Reason likens the layers to slices of Swiss cheese, piled upon each other, five or six deep. The holes represent small, potentially insignificant weaknesses. Things will totally collapse only rarely, he says, but when they do, it is by coincidence -- when all the holes happen to align so that there is a breach through the entire system.

On the day Balfour forgot Bryce in the car, she had been up much of the night, first babysitting for a friend who had to take her dog to an emergency vet clinic, then caring for Bryce, who was cranky with a cold. Because the baby was also tired, he uncharacteristically dozed in the car, so he made no noise. Because Balfour was planning to bring Bryce's usual car seat to the fire station to be professionally installed, Bryce was positioned in a different car seat that day, not behind the passenger but behind the driver, and was thus not visible in the rear-view mirror. Because the family's second car was on loan to a relative, Balfour drove her husband to work that day, meaning the diaper bag was in the back, not on the passenger seat, as usual, where she could see it. Because of a phone conversation with a young relative in trouble, and another with her boss about a crisis at work, Balfour spent most of the trip on her cell, stressed, solving other people's problems. Because the babysitter had a new phone, it didn't yet contain Balfour's office phone number, only her cell number, meaning that when the sitter phoned to wonder why Balfour hadn't dropped Bryce off that morning, it rang unheard in Balfour's pocketbook.

The holes, all of them, aligned.

The fallout, as quoted up thread:

In the end, Zwerling had one key decision to make. In criminal cases, jurors want to hear from the defendant. Zwerling liked and respected Balfour, but should he put her on the stand?

”Have you met her?" he asks.

Yes.

”Then you've seen that mental girdle she puts on, the protective armor against the world, how she closes up and becomes a soldier. It helps her survive, but it can seem off-putting if you're someone who wants to see how crushed she is." Zwerling decided not to risk it.

”I wound up putting her on the stand in a different way," he says, ”so people could see the real Lyn -- vulnerable, with no guile, no posturing."

What Zwerling did was play two audiotapes for the jury. One was Balfour's interrogation by police in the hospital about an hour after Bryce's death; her answers are immeasurably sad, almost unintelligible, half sob, half whisper: ”I killed my baby," she says tremulously. ”Oh, God, I'm so sorry."

The second tape was a call to 911 made by a passerby, in those first few seconds after Balfour discovered the body and beseeched a stranger to summon help.

Zwerling swivels to his computer, punches up an audio file.

”Want to hear it?"

***

It is 60 feet to the end of the patio, then a stairwell with 11 steps down, then two steps across, then a second stairwell, 12 steps down, one more off the curb and then a 30-foot sprint to the car. Balfour estimates the whole thing took half a minute or less. She knew it was too late when, through the window, she saw Bryce's limp hand, and then his face, unmarked but lifeless and shiny, Balfour says, ”like a porcelain doll."

It was seconds later that the passerby called 911.

***

The tape is unendurable. Mostly, you hear a woman's voice, tense but precise, explaining to a police dispatcher what she is seeing. Initially, there's nothing in the background. Then Balfour howls at the top of her lungs, ”OH, MY GOD, NOOOO!"

Then, for a few seconds, nothing.

Then a deafening shriek: ”NO, NO, PLEASE, NO!!!"

Three more seconds, then:

”PLEASE, GOD, NO, PLEASE!!!"

What is happening is that Balfour is administering CPR. At that moment, she recalls, she felt like two people occupying one body: Lyn, the crisply efficient certified combat lifesaver, and Lyn, the incompetent mother who would never again know happiness. Breathe, compress, breathe, compress. Each time that she came up for air, she lost it. Then, back to the patient.

Should this person be in prison? Is she a moron? (I think the answers are no, and no.) It's a horrifying tragedy that further punishment will not help to prevent.
 

ibyea

Banned
What I see here is too many people thinking they are in control of their faculty when that is not the case. The thing is, sentience is an illusion in a lot of cases. The sooner we realize that we are not in control, the better we can create routines that will minimize harm.
 

Cyframe

Member
I've seen stories like this since I was a kid. Oprah had the so called "Worst Mother In The World" on one of her shows who left her kid in the car after forgetting to drop her off at the babysitter. Reading about the syndrome explains it a little better and I would recommend everyone else read it as well.

It's tragic and I wish it didn't happen but I think the shaming narrative doesn't really get people to think about this issue in a productive way because most parents will say I would never do that, ignoring that getting in routine causes you to overlook things even children at times.
 

edbrat

Member
I think it's pretty telling that in basically every real-life situation where we're trying to make sure that people never, ever screw up, the approach we take is not "don't be irresponsible" but is instead "here is a checklist and you must rigorously adhere to it even if you're sure it'll be okay, or else you're going to get court-martialed".

Otherwise this is just the responsible gun owner problem. If the message you send people is that only irresponsible gun owners end up having a family member get shot, then people who think of themselves as responsible gun owners don't worry about it.

yes checklists are great and a very valuable way of thinking, I can recommend the Checklist Manifesto if you're interested in learning more:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0037Z8SLI/
 

U2NUMB

Member
Just a horrific story.. I feel so bad for the parents.. As someone who in the last 3 years went through moments of OH SHIT.. because my day was different I can relate. Luckily nothing even close to 2 hours or in the heat but I could see it happening.

What I would love is technology to help.. why not have internal cameras to detect movement. Cars know the outside and inside temp or could easily.. if movement is detected have the car start up and run the AC.
 
I can’t believe people in here calling this an accident. Two hours for an infant is not an accident. I wouldn’t leave my dog alone for two hours, let alone a child.

This is someone who clearly isn’t fit to be a parent.
 
Just a horrific story.. I feel so bad for the parents.. As someone who in the last 3 years went through moments of OH SHIT.. because my day was different I can relate. Luckily nothing even close to 2 hours or in the heat but I could see it happening.

What I would love is technology to help.. why not have internal cameras to detect movement. Cars know the outside and inside temp or could easily.. if movement is detected have the car start up and run the AC.

The problem with that is that not all cars are new. It would take decades to make something like that standard in automobiles.
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I can’t believe people in here calling this an accident. Two hours for an infant is not an accident. I wouldn’t leave my dog alone for two hours, let alone a child.

This is someone who clearly isn’t fit to be a parent.

I'm literally saying it can happen accidentally. Prove to me that it can't beyond your feelings and personal anecdotes. The "I'd never do that" is exactly why it keeps happening.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I've read the WaPo article and am not going to try to dispute it, but as a father of two, I can't fathom a situation like this occurring. Maybe it's because I've read so many articles and posts about pets and children dying in hot cars, but it's pretty much the top thing on my mind whenever I'm traveling with my kids. I always even turn the car on first and let the air conditioning work for a while before loading everyone into the car.

Of course, I don't have a daily routine where I drop them off at day care or somewhere else, so there's really no room for me to get into the checklist mindset of thinking I already unloaded them.
 
What exactly would be gained from punishing them? Do they need rehabilitation so they don't do this thing they never meant to do in the first place again? Would punishment act as a deterrent to other parents and stop them from doing this thing that none of them mean to do in the first place?
That's what frustrates me the most in these discussions. In medicine for instance, in order for the right medication to be prescribed, you must first make a correct diagnosis. If the diagnosis is incorrect, then the medication will be incorrect as well. Like, that's the entire problem with the war on drugs. A completely incorrect medication (incarceration for the crime of ingesting illicit substances) resulting from an incorrect understanding of the situation, that in no way actually tackles the problem it claims to be attempting to solve.

It's exactly the same situation here. Reacting purely based on emotion, while understandable as a first instinct given the terrible nature of these natures, when it goes beyond being just a first reaction and becomes the first and only reaction prevents the correct identification of the problem so that we can actually take action to prevent and minimize it in the future. Locking these people up for life ain't going to change anything, because it's not something that they intentionally did to begin with. That's not the correct problem or cause, and therefore anything that comes from that can't possibly help prevent this from actually happening again, as the incorrect cause is being punished and targeted, just as in the case of the war of drugs.

On the other hand, as uncomfortable as the reality may be, as much as we might not want to admit it and look away, looking the science of the matter in the eye and realizing that we have brains that are the products of millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of years of evolution that are meant for the lives of hunter-gatherers at best and that it's simply been impossible for evolution to keep pace with the rapid changes of civilization in the past 10,000 years and so we have brains that are essentially jury-rigged and forced to somehow make due with an environment they're ill-adapted for actually leads to practical solutions that can help minimize and reduce these incidents in the future.

It's not comfortable to admit that. It can be terrifying, which is why people lash out so viciously to the suggestion that it could happen to think that. No one wants to think that it could, because of how terrible it would be, and indeed that much is true. But no matter how terrifying it is, turning away and denying the truth accomplishes nothing.

On the other hand, despite how terrifying it seems at first, I take quite the optimistic approach to knowing my brains' limitations. Accepting that that's what's going on, and that it could just as easily happen to me as it could anyone else, means I can take actions to prevent it from happening. Denying it just gets me nothing, and makes me just as susceptible as anyone else. But by accepting the actual science and studies on the matter, and identifying the actual cause, I can lobby for stuff such as weight sensors on the back seats of cars that actually will help to prevent this, as it's actually targeted at the right problem.

That's what frustrates me at all the "what terrible parents" when stories like this comes up. I get the reactions. I truly, truly do. But while I understand them, they frustrate me because it doesn't do anything to actually prevent any of this from happening in the future, since they're attacking the wrong problem. And since the correct problem has been identified by science and study, and is indeed easily preventable with some simple changes to modern automobiles, it's frustrating, tremendously, tremendously frustrating, to see people misidentify the problem over and over again, just because they don't want to accept that it could happen to them just as easily as anyone else. And I get that. That's terrifying! It should be! But knowing about that and accepting it, let's us do something about it. That's a good thing! But it can't happen if we just keep sticking our fingers in our ears and considering these parents devils each and every time a story like this comes up. That might make us feel better in the here and now, but it does nothing to prevent this from happening again in the future, since the problem is misidentified and left at that.

But at least personally, I don't want to just "leave it at that." I want to do something to prevent and minimize it from happening again. But that requires correctly identifying the problem and then lobbying our automobile manufacturers and legislators to do something about that problem. And that can be done, and it's a tremendously good thing that there are indeed solutions out there that will help deal with this problem. But it can't be done until the problem is correctly identified to begin with.

And that's what's so frustrating: that the problem has been correctly identified, and there are solutions for it, but we nonetheless prefer to stick our fingers in our ears and misidentify the problem, because it makes us personally more comfortable and it just terrifies us that the same thing could in fact happen to each of us. And it should. That is terrifying! It's alright to be afraid!

But the good thing is, that we have solutions to deal with the limitations of our ill-adapted brains, that can help deal with their shortcomings to modern society (such as having weight sensors installed in rear car seats that will activate if there's still a weight in the rear seats when the car's turned off caused by, say, an infant still being back there). But that can only be done if we don't just accept it, but accept that in mass and apply some heavy pressure to legislators and automobile manufacturers. 'Til then, this will keep happening, because we keep point fingers and misidentifying the problem, and it's so frustrating because we could prevent this and do something about it, but we'd rather just blame each other just to avoid the uncomfortable truth that our brains ain't perfect, even if that's an uncomfortable truth we can easily do something about and accommodate if we just accept it. But unfortunately, that's quite a big "if" and thus here we are.
 
"There's no way I'd do that..."
"I can't fathom this happening..."
"I'd never forget..."

Pretty sure this woman thought the same thing when she woke up on Saturday.
 
I've read the WaPo article and am not going to try to dispute it, but as a father of two, I can't fathom a situation like this occurring. Maybe it's because I've read so many articles and posts about pets and children dying in hot cars, but it's pretty much the top thing on my mind whenever I'm traveling with my kids. I always even turn the car on first and let the air conditioning work for a while before loading everyone into the car.

Of course, I don't have a daily routine where I drop them off at day care or somewhere else, so there's really no room for me to get into the checklist mindset of thinking I already unloaded them.

Literally every parent this has happened to has probably never fathomed that it could happen to them until it does. That's what makes it so dangerous, and that's what makes people dismissing actual studies and research because "im a parent and it would never happen to me!" even more dangerous.
 

U2NUMB

Member
It's tragic, for sure. And mind-boggling and it feels irresponsible, until you read more about the hows and whys of it happening.

Here's the background of one such death, from the WaPo article:



The fallout, as quoted up thread:



Should this person be in prison? Is she a moron? (I think the answers are no, and no.) It's a horrifying tragedy that further punishment will not help to prevent.


Good lord.. if that does not make everyone understand how its possible nothing can... just crushes the soul.. that poor woman.. that poor child :(

The problem with that is that not all cars are new. It would take decades to make something like that standard in automobiles.

No doubt but that should not stop that feature or something like it from becoming a thing.. it has a chance to save a child or pet. But your point is correct.. it would still take a while.
 
I can’t believe people in here calling this an accident. Two hours for an infant is not an accident. I wouldn’t leave my dog alone for two hours, let alone a child.

This is someone who clearly isn’t fit to be a parent.

It can happen to literally anyone. I posted this earlier.

.

I've never forgotten my child anywhere, but I've had similar moments. Like a few weeks ago my parents took her for the evening, I still went up to her room to check on her and freaked out a bit when she wasn't in her bed before I remembered where she was.

.

Not the exact same situation but it's the exact same mental process. You thinking 'This can never happen to me because I'm responsible' is exactly what why it happens.
 

Chococat

Member
The best outcome of sad stories like this that people learn that you definitely can forget a child in a car.

Learning about this fatal human flaw can lead to parents setting up routines or reminders to help combat the blind spots in the brain.

In this case, it was a sad human accident. I hope the parent get mandatory council instead of punishment. Losing a child due to something you, as a parent, could have prevent, is heart wrenching.

That being said, every case of a child who dies in a car does need to be investigated to separate forgetting accidents from negligence/murder.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Literally every parent this has happened to has probably never fathomed that it could happen to them until it does. That's what makes it so dangerous, and that's what makes people dismissing actual studies and research because "im a parent and it would never happen to me!" even more dangerous.

Perhaps. I think being exposed to these articles and studies might go a long way to preventing someone from ever finding his or herself in the same situation.
 

Staccat0

Fail out bailed
Some threads seem to only exist to make me sad. Not sure what there is to discuss. People want to debate that you can forget things? I love my daughter more than life itself and I don't think I could ever make a mistake this stupid, but I mean... people do.
 
Some threads seem to only exist to make me sad. Not sure what there is to discuss. People want to debate that you can forget things? I love my daughter more than life itself and I don't think I could ever make a mistake this stupid, but I mean... people do.

Awareness. As many have said, this is a human failing that could happen to anyone. Seeing a story like this could be the reason it doesn't happen to someone.
 
Some threads seem to only exist to make me sad. Not sure what there is to discuss. People want to debate that you can forget things? I love my daughter more than life itself and I don't think I could ever make a mistake this stupid, but I mean... people do.
You can make the mistake so safeguard yourself as much possible.
 

ohlawd

Member
Some threads seem to only exist to make me sad. Not sure what there is to discuss. People want to debate that you can forget things? I love my daughter more than life itself and I don't think I could ever make a mistake this stupid, but I mean... people do.

you serious? you can tell from this thread that despite the numerous articles and stories posted, some people are having a hard time understanding. people have to be educated on why this shit happens at all. otherwise you're gonna end up like one half of the posters here who don't understand and make awful potshots at the parents who have experienced this tragedy. people like to think they're above their bodily functions but are really not. you really think this can't happen to you? hahah
 

Omadahl

Banned
I never have, nor will I ever leave my child unattended. How do you forget what should be the most important thing in your life? This question is purely rhetorical, because no one has that answer. I feel terrible for everyone from the kid to the EMT that had to remove him.
 

Mailbox

Member
I never have, nor will I ever leave my child unattended. How do you forget what should be the most important thing in your life? This question is purely rhetorical, because no one has that answer. I feel terrible for everyone from the kid to the EMT that had to remove him.

Well, it shouldn't be rhetorical because we actually do have an answer to that very question:
Read the OP, and maybe you'll find out
 

slit

Member
I never have, nor will I ever leave my child unattended. How do you forget what should be the most important thing in your life?

What is it so hard to understand this. Your mind doesn't always work the way you think it does. If your have checked off in your mind the baby has been taken care of because in a routine he/she always is, yes that CAN happen even to you.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
I think you missed the point, and pretty badly.

This stuff can happen to anyone. The solution is not to talk like anyone it happens to was irresponsible or else surely they'd have noticed. The solution is to set a new standard for responsibility which is going to strike most people as being ridiculously over-cautious. If we're going to say that this is a serious problem we need to solve, what we need to say is this: starting probably months before you actually have a kid, absolutely every time you get out of your car you should open up the back door and look around. It's failure to do this which is irresponsible. Never doing this and then happening to accidentally leave your kid in the car is no more irresponsible, just less lucky.

I don't.

What do we say when someone forgets a gun is loaded and shoots themselves or someone else? They are not responsible enough to own guns.

I agree there should be strict rules checking of cars, just like you are supposed to double check your gun if taking it apart to clean it.

If we just wave our hands and say welp complete accident could happen to anyone we can never prevent more needless death.

I think you can recognize humans are fallible and still have laws in place that punish mistakes, because if you check the backseat everytime then it is impossible to do this. I agree that additional punishment after the fact would not really help, to curtail behavior you need to punish it before tragedy strikes (seatbelt/cellphone laws come to mind).

It seems rather difficult to implement some sort of "back seat check" law, there would need to be some sort of fine if you are caught not checking your backseat. I don't have any idea how to implement this without being overly draconian or invasive.
 

slit

Member
I don't.

What do we say when someone forgets a gun is loaded and shoots themselves or someone else? They are not responsible enough to own guns.

I agree there should be strict rules checking of cars, just like you are supposed to double check your gun if taking it apart to clean it.

If we just wave our hands and say welp complete accident could happen to anyone we can never prevent more needless death.

I think you can recognize humans are fallible and still have laws in place that punish mistakes, because if you check the backseat everytime then it is impossible to do this. I agree that additional punishment after the fact would not really help, to curtail behavior you need to punish it before tragedy strikes (seatbelt/cellphone laws come to mind).

It seems rather difficult to implement some sort of "back seat check" law, there would need to be some sort of fine if you are caught not checking your backseat. I don't have any idea how to implement this without being overly draconian or invasive.

That they were consciously pointing a gun at someone. Even in jest that serves no purpose. Not the same thing here.
 

Leynos

Member
You can make the mistake so safeguard yourself as much possible.

Forgetting my baby in the car was one of my greatest fears. As has been stated many times over, this can happen to anyone. To minimize the risk, I made sure to put something of hers in the front seat, and something that I needed in the rear seat.

I can't imagine the grief, and guilt these parents have to live with. Further punishment isn't going to keep these people from doing it again, nor will it prevent it from happening to others.
 

Nydius

Member
That being said, every case of a child who dies in a car does need to be investigated to separate forgetting accidents from negligence/murder.

Legally, if the act of forgetting leads to the death of a child it is still considered child neglect.

These longwinded posts in this topic are nice and all but they still just boil down to lengthy ways of saying "due to circumstances and quirks in the human brain, I forgot". That isn't a valid or justifiable defense under the law for the neglect of a child which leads to its death.

I agree that criminal "punishment" in the traditional sense isn't ideal but neither is simply excusing forgetfulness and comforting the neglectful parent(s).
 

Mailbox

Member
What do we say when someone forgets a gun is loaded and shoots themselves or someone else? They are not responsible enough to own guns.

I agree there should be strict rules checking of cars, just like you are supposed to double check your gun if taking it ap
If we just wave our hands and say welp complete accident could happen to anyone we can never prevent more needless death.

Actually it's the opposite. Bringing this into light that this is indeed an accident, indeed a tragedy, that these parents didn't want their child dead, and that this CAN happen to anyone could very well stop parents from thinking they're perfect and they could start doing things that make situations like those in the OP less likely to happen in the future.

This isn't about hand waving, it's about noting the situation for what it actually is instead of the irrational emotional outbursts we see all over this thread.


Oh, and that's gun comparison isn't as similar as you think it is.
 
I'm legitimately scared shitless that this could happen to one of my children. It's for that reason that I check even when I know I don't have to. My sympathy is for the children that lose their lives and for the parents that have lost their children. This is not something that is so cut and dry as negligence.

That said, I don't know what I'd do if my wife or a relative left my children in a hot car like that. I don't think I could be reasoned with
 

Mailbox

Member
Legally, if the act of forgetting leads to the death of a child it is still considered child neglect.

These longwinded posts in this topic are nice and all but they still just boil down to lengthy ways of saying "due to circumstances and quirks in the human brain, I forgot". That isn't a valid or justifiable defense under the law for the neglect of a child which leads to its death.

I agree that criminal "punishment" in the traditional sense isn't ideal but neither is simply excusing forgetfulness and comforting the neglectful parent(s).

Laws aren't inharently just, nor, often, are their punishments.

Way too often we see laws and public persecution based on nothing Moreno than sensationalism and emotion. When it comes to the law and what laws get made, facts matter surprisingly little.

It's best not to act as though laws are inharently just.
 

RMI

Banned
Does this ever happen in mild non-lethal weather?

You never hear about it.

I feel bad for the parents who go through this, but I also can't help but wonder how absent minded you have to be. From when I get up in the morning to when he gets dropped off at daycare, my kid occupies most of my mental faculties.
 

Saganator

Member
Kind of ironic seeing all these posts from people forgetting to read the thread before posting in a thread about people forgetting something.

Before posting in a thread, you should ask yourself these simple questions..

1. Did I read the thread?

2. Does my post contribute to the current discussion (ie are you replying to the 2nd post in a 10 page thread)?

3. Can I backup my arguements with facts from reputable sources?

If you answer no to any of the questions, don't post.
 
Legally, if the act of forgetting leads to the death of a child it is still considered child neglect.

These longwinded posts in this topic are nice and all but they still just boil down to lengthy ways of saying "due to circumstances and quirks in the human brain, I forgot". That isn't a valid or justifiable defense under the law for the neglect of a child which leads to its death.

I agree that criminal "punishment" in the traditional sense isn't ideal but neither is simply excusing forgetfulness and comforting the neglectful parent(s).

They're not being excused, they're dealing with the greatest punishment that can be dealt. They have to live knowing they are responsible for their infant child's death. Not other punishment comes close to that.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Actually it's the opposite. Bringing this into light that this is indeed an accident, indeed a tragedy, that these parents didn't want their child dead, and that this CAN happen to anyone could very well stop parents from thinking they're perfect and they could start doing things that make situations like those in the OP less likely to happen in the future.

This isn't about hand waving, it's about noting the situation for what it actually is instead of the irrational emotional outbursts we see all over this thread.


Oh, and that's gun comparison isn't as similar as you think it is.

Do you have any empirical evidence that excusing crime leads to less of it? Should all tragic accidents be excused cause shit happens?
 
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