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[Spyware]

Does this ever happen in mild non-lethal weather?

You never hear about it.

Because it's not a news story if the kid doesn't die. It happens all the time but any other season the kid will have had a horrible day, but will mostl likely be alive.

 

[Mathieran]

That WaPo article is a tough read, but I highly recommend it, especially before some of y'all coming in here saying you would never do it.

Reading about the grief of those parents made me cry, which is a really rare reaction for me to reading about tragic events.

Because it's not a news story if the kid doesn't die. It happens all the time but any other season the kid will have had a horrible day, but will mostl likely be alive.

I do find it kind of weird you don't hear about it in the winter actually. If you left your infant in the car for several hours in the freezing weather it could be lethal. Hell in ND where I grew up it's not unusual for the highs be subzero.

 

[Forerunner]

Does this ever happen in mild non-lethal weather?

It can. In 70 degree weather, it'll already be 105 degrees in your car after 30 minutes.

 

[slit]

Legally, if the act of forgetting leads to the death of a child it is still considered child neglect.

These longwinded posts in this topic are nice and all but they still just boil down to lengthy ways of saying "due to circumstances and quirks in the human brain, I forgot". That isn't a valid or justifiable defense under the law for the neglect of a child which leads to its death.

I agree that criminal "punishment" in the traditional sense isn't ideal but neither is simply excusing forgetfulness and comforting the neglectful parent(s).

Evidently not since there are cases where the law has not gone after the parents for this so I don't know where you got that expert legal mandate from.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

Things I've forgotten to do or done wrong, the past year:

Left my work laptop at home, only realizing it when I arrived at work after a 45-minute commute. I can do zero work when I get there without it. I'd left it in a different part of the house than usual and didn't grab it on the way out the door.

Left my wallet at home when taking my daughter to a movie. I'd put it upstairs rather than next to my keys by the door (bought something online, left it by the computer). We missed that showing but went to the next.

Taken my older daughter to the middle school in the morning. She was a freshman. This was deep into the school year, but two years of muscle memory kicked in. She was on her phone and looked up and was like, "Dad. Wrong school?"

The list goes on. The first two were caused by small changes to my routine, but they resulted in me forgetting critical things that felt really dumb to do and obvious not to forget. The last one was just my normal routine kicking in: my wife takes Nat to school most days, until she started working this year and I did so on those days. But driving routines from the prior two years kicked in and off I went.

I'm not stupid and it certainly wasn't on purpose. Routine, fatigue and a stressful work schedule were contributing factors.

It's a pretty thin line between things like that and having a sleeping baby in the car while doing an activity during which I don't normally have a sleeping baby in the car, and forgetting about it. I read these stories and think, thank god I got through without ever doing that. Because I could have. Easily.

I'd never had or spent any large amount of time raising children before I'd met my wife four years ago. Her daughter from a previous relationship was 8 when I met her.

I used to think the same thing as most people, that it was negligent and criminal. My wife showed me stuff on forgotten baby syndrome and that wapo article and it kind of opened my eyes a bit. I would be out grocery shopping, notice my daughter wasn't around and wonder where she was before realizing I didn't even have her and she was at the house.

You're dead on about stress/fatigue. A large amount of fatigue and work (or personal life) related stress is enough to drastically change your brain chemistry. I can thankfully say I've never had a situation like leaving my kid at the store or anything like that, but I definitely took her to the wrong school (or waited for pickup at the wrong school) on a few occasions.

Plus having a baby is one of the stressful situations in your whole life. Sure it is a gift but a gift that oftenly comes with sleepness nights and other stuff. It shakes your life and change your routine. Two things to mess with your brain. When my first child was born I was so tired and out of my routine that I was sleeping in meetings and other dumb stuffs. I have read and those horrible stories before so I was kind of aware of that risks. Hopefully my son stayed in the house most of the time with a babysitter, if I have to drive him to a daycare those times would be much more difficult.

I can understand why people who do not have children react bad to those stories and guilt the parents, but I cannot see how other parents cannot emphatize with them.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Evidently not since there are cases where the law has not gone after the parents for this so I don't know where you got that expert legal opinion from.

"the law" isn't a robot, the choice to file charges is up to individual district attorneys.

Plus having a baby is one of the stressful situations in your whole life. Sure it is a gift but a gift that oftenly comes with sleepness nights and other stuff. It shakes your life and change your routine. Two things to mess with your brain. When my first child was born I was so tired and out of my routine that I was sleeping in meetings and other dumb stuffs. I have read and those horrible stories before so I was kind of aware of that risks. Hopefully my son stayed in the house most of the time with a babysitter, if I have to drive him to a daycare those times would be much more difficult.

I can understand why people who do not have children react bad to those stories and guilt the parents, but I cannot see how other parents cannot emphatize with them.

This is a completely different argument than most are making. The excuse is it becomes to routine and you are on autopilot.

I have children and I did drop them off at daycare for a year.

 

[slit]

"the law" isn't a robot, the choice to file charges is up to individual district attorneys.

Why are you telling me that when I'm not the one who made the blanket statement on what defines child neglect?

 

[RMI]

That WaPo article is a tough read, but I highly recommend it, especially before some of y'all coming in here saying you would never do it.

Reading about the grief of those parents made me cry, which is a really rare reaction for me to reading about tragic events.

I do find it kind of weird you don't hear about it in the winter actually. If you left your infant in the car for several hours in the freezing weather it could be lethal. Hell in ND where I grew up it's not unusual for the highs be subzero.

I don't think it's as bold a claim as you think to say "I would never do that." millions of parents aren't ever forgetting their kid in the car.

as for the winter thing, perhaps the kids are bundled up enough. Here in central new york the car would be ice cold in the winter mornings so we usually bundled the baby up pretty thoroughly before putting him in the car seat.

Another thing is that it seems like a lot of the time this sort of thing happens when it's not the parent's usual day to watch the kid. For my wife and I we are just the two of us taking care of this kid without any family help, so if I'm out of the house outside of daycare hours either the baby is with me or he is with her. there's nowhere else he could possibly be. It's just sort of burned into my mind to think about where he is.

actually found a story about a guy forgetting his kid in the car (and the kid not dying because it was a short time)

and i gotta say i can't help but give the side eye to comments like this from the story

It was winter in Massachusetts, and temperatures were in the single digits. As I parked the car I was more intent on bracing myself for the arctic blast of cold air than anything else.

like wtf dude it's below 10F outside and you are out with your baby you should probably be thinking about how cold HE is going to be. wtf.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Why are you telling me that when I'm not the one who made the blanket statement on what defines child neglect?

Because its clearly neglect. Seems like a certain type if person does this and its all the sudden a random act of nature. It would be interesting to see the socio - economics of people that are prosecuted. I bet they are poor and have funny sounding names.

 

[slit]

Because its clearly neglect. Seems like a certain type if person does this and its all the sudden a random act of nature. It would be interesting to see the socio - economics of people that are prosecuted. I bet they are poor and have funny sounding names.

It's not clear by legal definition because intent plays a part and don't change the subject to socio-economic one. That may be a valid point but not one I was discussing.

 

[U2NUMB]

I do find it kind of weird you don't hear about it in the winter actually. If you left your infant in the car for several hours in the freezing weather it could be lethal. Hell in ND where I grew up it's not unusual for the highs be subzero.

But keep in mind if it is that cold the kid more than likely has a coat on. Living here in Minnesota my kids are wrapped up in enough protection to last a nuke blast in January. Heat is a different beast.. no getting away from it. I have no doubt it CAN happen in the cold it just takes much much longer.

 

[Gravy Boat]

Because its clearly neglect. Seems like a certain type if person does this and its all the sudden a random act of nature. It would be interesting to see the socio - economics of people that are prosecuted. I bet they are poor and have funny sounding names.

Read the WaPo article and you'd know what sort of people this happens to.

On second thought I really can't make head nor tail of this post.

 

[Mathieran]

But keep in mind if it is that cold the kid more than likely has a coat on. Living here in Minnesota my kids are wrapped up in enough protection to last a nuke blast in January. Heat is a different beast.. no getting away from it. I have no doubt it CAN happen in the cold it just takes much much longer.

Yeah we would bundle up our daughter even for a 5 minute ride considering how long it could take for the car to warm up. I suppose hypothermia could take longer to set in, and is more survivable than hyperthermia (not sure if true, just speculating)

 

[Spyware]

I do find it kind of weird you don't hear about it in the winter actually. If you left your infant in the car for several hours in the freezing weather it could be lethal. Hell in ND where I grew up it's not unusual for the highs be subzero.

We don't die as fast from the cold since our systems slow down instead of whatever crazy things happen when we overheat. They also probably have clothes on or a blanket, and cars get cold a lot slower than they get hot in the sun.

A little 6 year old girl got lost in a nature reserve in Sweden a couple of weeks ago. The rain was pouring down most of the time, the temp was around 10 degrees celsius and she was wearing shorts and a summer top (because the weather was real nice when they arrived). They found her after 12 hours halfway down a cliff she had fallen off, with wet clothes and fully exposed to the wind. She had spent most of the hours she was missing on that cliff. She was completely fine afterwards and walked most of the way back on her own thanking the police dog that finally found her.
It's crazy what our bodies can endure when it comes to colder weather.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

Yeah we would bundle up our daughter even for a 5 minute ride considering how long it could take for the car to warm up. I suppose hypothermia could take longer to set in, and is more survivable than hyperthermia (not sure if true, just speculating)

Because in cold the body reduces functions to try to survive. In heat your body actually becames faster, trying to reduce the heat by sweeting, thus spending more energy and I guess dying sooner (speculating too).

In the case of children in cars in the cold weather parents would wrap them up in clothes anyway, and they are better prepared to face cold. There is nothing against heat.

 

[adamantypants]

If you live in the desert, this is not an accident. I can't even leave anything plastic in my car because it will melt, let alone leaving a child in there. I live in Vegas; temperatures are similar to Phoenix.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

If you live in the desert, this is not an accident. I can't even leave anything plastic in my car because it will melt, let alone leaving a child in there. I live in Vegas; temperatures are similar to Phoenix.

Nothing you said disputes why this could be an accident. Again, what is the alternative? Are you suggesting that these people wanted to murder their baby? Or do people just not understand what an "accident" is?

 

[Flo_Evans]

It's not clear by legal definition because intent plays a part and don't change the subject to socio-economic one. That may be a valid point but not one I was discussing.

You are saying because some parents don't get prosecuted that means nothing wrong happened. How do you feel about police officers that kill people and are not prosecuted?

 

[Jezan]

No it's not. It's negligence. Better neuter these idiots before they kill someone else.



How about no, you don't? It's your kid, the one life that loves you and looks to you to take care of it, protect it and trusts you won't let him/her down. YOU DO NOT FORGET YOUR KID, THEY ARE NOT THINGS TO FORGET.

So I guess that whenever you drive your daily commute you remember every single time to check every single stop light if it was red or green and you were 100 aware that it was green before proceeding?

I would believe it was NOT an accident if the child was trapped in the first 30 minutes, but after 2 hours I'm pretty sure that the parent didn't realize the kid was there.


Of course they should now take the person responsible to some psychological tests to see if it was an accident or not. The guilt will do the rest forever.

 

[Vital Tundra]

I don't care if its about routine, and if its an accident, its fucking stupid. If its not a crime it very well should be. I can't see how no matter how deep routed your routine is forgetting to take your child out the car at any stop is inexcusable.

As a father of 2 make an effort to know where my children are, and even then I hold on to the constant fear that I may lose them. Thats enough to keep me on my toes.

 

[slit]

You are saying because some parents don't get prosecuted that means nothing wrong happened. How do you feel about police officers that kill people and are not prosecuted?

I'm saying in some cases nothing intentionally negligible happened according to the law. Again don't try and change the subject. Police have an intent to kill that they then try and justify, these parents are not intending to harm or kill as far as we know.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

This is a completely different argument than most are making. The excuse is it becomes to routine and you are on autopilot.

I have children and I did drop them off at daycare for a year.

If you read the article it does not say it is caused by routine, it is caused by stress and/or a difference of your normal routine, when the "autopilot" primitive brain takes over and the rational brain slips.

Routine is not a factor, you are getting it wrong. If it is routine to drive your child to daycare you will be getting him in and out of the car in autopilot.

 

[aliengmr]

I don't care if its about routine, and if its an accident, its fucking stupid. If its not a crime it very well should be. I can't see how no matter how deep routed your routine is forgetting to take your child out the car at any stop is inexcusable.

As a father of 2 make an effort to know where my children are, and even then I hold on to the constant fear that I may lose them. Thats enough to keep me on my toes.

Do you really know enough about any of these parents to really judge them? If an accident that was ultimately your fault cost you one of you kid's lives, would any punishment even come close? Would you need to be charged with a crime to be punished? Would the prosecution of your accident be required for you to learn a lesson?

My guess is, as a father of 2 myself, nothing could ever come close to the loss of one of your kids. In fact, if it's a choice between living with the knowledge that an accident, that was my fault, killed one of my boys and prison, I'd choose prison any day of the week.

 

[ShironRedshift]

I don't care if its about routine, and if its an accident, its fucking stupid. If its not a crime it very well should be. I can't see how no matter how deep routed your routine is forgetting to take your child out the car at any stop is inexcusable.

As a father of 2 make an effort to know where my children are, and even then I hold on to the constant fear that I may lose them. Thats enough to keep me on my toes.

Have you read the Washington Post article? The entire point is that they don't remember that the child is there to begin with. Why would they take their child out when they fully believe the child is safe elsewhere? That doesn't make any sense, and so they don't check the backseat, because they have no reason.

And to quote myself from earlier:

That's what frustrates me the most in these discussions. In medicine for instance, in order for the right medication to be prescribed, you must first make a correct diagnosis. If the diagnosis is incorrect, then the medication will be incorrect as well. Like, that's the entire problem with the war on drugs. A completely incorrect medication (incarceration for the crime of ingesting illicit substances) resulting from an incorrect understanding of the situation, that in no way actually tackles the problem it claims to be attempting to solve.

It's exactly the same situation here. Reacting purely based on emotion, while understandable as a first instinct given the terrible nature of these natures, when it goes beyond being just a first reaction and becomes the first and only reaction prevents the correct identification of the problem so that we can actually take action to prevent and minimize it in the future. Locking these people up for life ain't going to change anything, because it's not something that they intentionally did to begin with. That's not the correct problem or cause, and therefore anything that comes from that can't possibly help prevent this from actually happening again, as the incorrect cause is being punished and targeted, just as in the case of the war of drugs.

On the other hand, as uncomfortable as the reality may be, as much as we might not want to admit it and look away, looking the science of the matter in the eye and realizing that we have brains that are the products of millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of years of evolution that are meant for the lives of hunter-gatherers at best and that it's simply been impossible for evolution to keep pace with the rapid changes of civilization in the past 10,000 years and so we have brains that are essentially jury-rigged and forced to somehow make due with an environment they're ill-adapted for actually leads to practical solutions that can help minimize and reduce these incidents in the future.

It's not comfortable to admit that. It can be terrifying, which is why people lash out so viciously to the suggestion that it could happen to think that. No one wants to think that it could, because of how terrible it would be, and indeed that much is true. But no matter how terrifying it is, turning away and denying the truth accomplishes nothing.

On the other hand, despite how terrifying it seems at first, I take quite the optimistic approach to knowing my brains' limitations. Accepting that that's what's going on, and that it could just as easily happen to me as it could anyone else, means I can take actions to prevent it from happening. Denying it just gets me nothing, and makes me just as susceptible as anyone else. But by accepting the actual science and studies on the matter, and identifying the actual cause, I can lobby for stuff such as weight sensors on the back seats of cars that actually will help to prevent this, as it's actually targeted at the right problem.

That's what frustrates me at all the "what terrible parents" when stories like this comes up. I get the reactions. I truly, truly do. But while I understand them, they frustrate me because it doesn't do anything to actually prevent any of this from happening in the future, since they're attacking the wrong problem. And since the correct problem has been identified by science and study, and is indeed easily preventable with some simple changes to modern automobiles, it's frustrating, tremendously, tremendously frustrating, to see people misidentify the problem over and over again, just because they don't want to accept that it could happen to them just as easily as anyone else. And I get that. That's terrifying! It should be! But knowing about that and accepting it, let's us do something about it. That's a good thing! But it can't happen if we just keep sticking our fingers in our ears and considering these parents devils each and every time a story like this comes up. That might make us feel better in the here and now, but it does nothing to prevent this from happening again in the future, since the problem is misidentified and left at that.

But at least personally, I don't want to just "leave it at that." I want to do something to prevent and minimize it from happening again. But that requires correctly identifying the problem and then lobbying our automobile manufacturers and legislators to do something about that problem. And that can be done, and it's a tremendously good thing that there are indeed solutions out there that will help deal with this problem. But it can't be done until the problem is correctly identified to begin with.

And that's what's so frustrating: that the problem has been correctly identified, and there are solutions for it, but we nonetheless prefer to stick our fingers in our ears and misidentify the problem, because it makes us personally more comfortable and it just terrifies us that the same thing could in fact happen to each of us. And it should. That is terrifying! It's alright to be afraid!

But the good thing is, that we have solutions to deal with the limitations of our ill-adapted brains, that can help deal with their shortcomings to modern society (such as having weight sensors installed in rear car seats that will activate if there's still a weight in the rear seats when the car's turned off caused by, say, an infant still being back there). But that can only be done if we don't just accept it, but accept that in mass and apply some heavy pressure to legislators and automobile manufacturers. 'Til then, this will keep happening, because we keep point fingers and misidentifying the problem, and it's so frustrating because we could prevent this and do something about it, but we'd rather just blame each other just to avoid the uncomfortable truth that our brains ain't perfect, even if that's an uncomfortable truth we can easily do something about and accommodate if we just accept it. But unfortunately, that's quite a big "if" and thus here we are.

The TLR version of that, is that even if I'm wrong about these particular parents, operating under that train of thought nonetheless still causes me to take preventative steps in my own life that I wouldn't otherwise. Flat out denying it could happen to me gets me nothing, but by operating under the assumption it's just as likely to happen to me as anyone else helps me make sure I take as many steps to compensate for the limitations and possible failures of my biology as possible. The whole point is working under the basis of "better safe than sorry."

What's the downside exactly, of operating under that train of thought? I'm right, I"m helping to tackle the actual problem. I'm wrong, and I'm still operating under "better safe than sorry" principle and making sure I'm even safer about this than I would be otherwise. What's the downside, then, of lobbying for say better safety measures to be mandatory in all new cars, instead of just calling for these parents to be locked up with everything we have and leaving it at that? I'm right, the actual problem's being addressed. I'm wrong, and well... vehicles were made safer anyway? What's the downside? I don't get it.

To me, it's exactly like the "we made the planet grenner and more environmentally friendly for nothing" meme image in regards to climate change. Same principle. Just don't get the downside of working under that train of thought, as compared to blind rage and fury. Either way, just seems like a pure win-win situation to me, just like with climate change.

 

[norm9]

The punishment for an accident like this should be similar to if your kid grab ahold of your gun and shot themselves.

 

[Septimus Prime]

So... thanks this thread, I checked the car seat like a million times this morning.

But yeah, in case it wasn't clear last night, I don't remotely think that I'm somehow immune to this kind of thing happening. Just the other day, I brought my son to daycare without shoes and had to go all the way back home and back again.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

I can understand automatically judging these parents as murderers or grossly negligent before reading evidence like that WaPo article. But after? That's just plain stupidity. This thread has been a frustrating read at times and I'm glad bans have been meted out in response.

I'm grateful to whoever posted those articles because now I know that this could indeed happen to anyone. When I have kids I'm going to invest in a child seat with a sensor and I'm going to be extra vigilant during periods of stress and sleep deprivation. I'm also going to raise this issue with my sister and cousin with young children to help spread awareness. Having this happen would be a fate worse than death.

 

[SolarMystic]

Forgotten Baby Syndrome

Reading this Pulitzer-winning article from the Washington Post made me a lot more sympathetic toward the parents in these cases.

These should be added to the OP. So much ignorance from posters in this topic making accusations based purely on their (angry) emotional response.

Literally every human being posting "this is negligence, I would never do that" is at risk of doing this at some point. You are not immune.

 

[off duty ninja]

It would be interesting to see the socio - economics of people that are prosecuted. I bet they are poor and have funny sounding names.

Here is an example of one prosecution. It was covered in depth on the Breakdown podcast (season 2).

The poor perp's funny sounding name:

Spoiler

Justin Ross Harris

 

[ZeoVGM]

I can understand automatically judging these parents as murderers or grossly negligent before reading evidence like that WaPo article. But after? That's just plain stupidity. This thread has been a frustrating read at times and I'm glad bans have been meted out in response.

I'm grateful to whoever posted those articles because now I know that this could indeed happen to anyone. When I have kids I'm going to invest in a child seat with a sensor and I'm going to be extra vigilant during periods of stress and sleep deprivation. I'm also going to raise this issue with my sister and cousin with young children to help spread awareness. Having this happen would be a fate worse than death.

Honestly, I thought that was a different article at first but I hadn't seen that one. After reading it this morning, I definitely understand what others in the thread were saying.

My initial reaction on the first two pages was too emotionally loaded. Just the idea of this happening alone set me off but I don't want to be a hypocrite who attacks the GoP for not accepting science and then do the same when it's something that bothers me personally.

So yeah, I apologize for my reaction originally.

 

[R&R]

Have to comment even though I am not really adding anything valuable to the discussion but seriously the stupidity and ignorance of some of the responses in this thread is beyond annoying. How fucking difficult it is to read when numerous posters are offering the very answers to you on a silver platter? The issue is very real and can tragically happen. Even to you who think your brains are perfect. Hint: they are not.

 

[thesoapster]

TWO HOURS?! Fuck that person.

 

[SolarMystic]

Have to comment even though I am not really adding anything valuable to the discussion but seriously the stupidity and ignorance of some of the responses in this thread is beyond annoying. How fucking difficult it is to read when numerous posters are offering the very answers to you on a silver platter? The issue is very real and can tragically happen. Even to you who think your brains are perfect. Hint: they are not.

Because people don't like to find out they are wrong. Anytime something different tries to get inside their bubble that doesn't align with their worldview they lash out or ignore it. We are still a very primitive species.

 

[Raticus79]

So... thanks this thread, I checked the car seat like a million times this morning.

But yeah, in case it wasn't clear last night, I don't remotely think that I'm somehow immune to this kind of thing happening. Just the other day, I brought my son to daycare without shoes and had to go all the way back home and back again.

I can understand automatically judging these parents as murderers or grossly negligent before reading evidence like that WaPo article. But after? That's just plain stupidity. This thread has been a frustrating read at times and I'm glad bans have been mete out in response.

I'm grateful to whoever posted those articles because now I know that this could indeed happen to anyone. When I have kids I'm going to invest in a child seat with a sensor and I'm going to be extra vigilant during periods of stress and sleep deprivation. I'm also going to raise this issue with my sister and cousin with young children to help spread awareness. Having this happen would be a fate worse than death.

Oh yeah, I'll be adding an extra check for a clear seat every time I get out of the car now. "Can't lock the car unless I'm currently looking in the empty car seat", that kind of thing.

I have a solid match for the scenario the research describes: I take my car to the outdoor parking at the train station most days while my wife takes the toddler to day care before going to her job. One day she has to go to an appointment, so I take him instead and <insert long story of distractions here>, he quietly falls asleep and I forget I need to drop him off at the day care. I just go about my daily routine of parking and hopping on the train to go to work... the end.

If one day I do my habitual car seat check and am startled to see a kid there, I'll owe them some thanks.

 

[danthefan]

Does this ever happen in mild non-lethal weather?

You never hear about it.

It happened in Ireland earlier this year. The temperature was no more than 30c/86f. Probably a few degrees cooler than that. I think about 33c/92f is the hottest temperature ever on record in Ireland.

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

TWO HOURS?! Fuck that person.

Read the Wapo article. It could happen to you.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

Honestly, I thought that was a different article at first but I hadn't seen that one. After reading it this morning, I definitely understand what others in the thread were saying.

My initial reaction on the first two pages was too emotionally loaded. Just the idea of this happening alone set me off but I don't want to be a hypocrite who attacks the GoP for not accepting science and then do the same when it's something that bothers me personally.

So yeah, I apologize for my reaction originally.

It's big of you to acknowledge that you were mistaken. It's completely understandable, too. Your reaction would have been my reaction prior to reading the evidence. The reality is completely unintuitive. That's what makes it so scary.

Oh yeah, I'll be adding an extra check for a clear seat every time I get out of the car now. "Can't lock the car unless I'm currently looking in the empty car seat", that kind of thing.

I have a solid match for the scenario the research describes: I take my car to the outdoor parking at the train station most days while my wife takes the toddler to day care before going to her job. One day she has to go to an appointment, so I take him instead and <insert long story of distractions here>, he quietly falls asleep and I forget I need to drop him off at the day care. I just go about my daily routine of parking and hopping on the train to go to work... the end.

If one day I do my habitual car seat check and am startled to see a kid there, I'll owe them some thanks.

Definitely. The factual circumstances that lead to this type of tragedy hit close for me, too. Routine commute, stressful job, sleep deprivation. To think that the same glitch in the system that allows you to forget your keys could cost you your child's life...

One idea I read is to keep a large stuffed animal in the child seat when it is not in use. When the seat is occupied by your child, put the stuffed animal in the passenger seat next to you as a reminder that you have a baby on-board.

 

[Lionel Richie]

I can understand automatically judging these parents as murderers or grossly negligent before reading evidence like that WaPo article. But after? That's just plain stupidity. This thread has been a frustrating read at times and I'm glad bans have been meted out in response.

Not to position myself one way or another about this because honestly I don't think it's up to me or anyone in this thread to be judgmental about people we don't know living under circumstances we have no way of fully grasping, but I think the disconnect you're reading comes from the fact that the concept of negligence as far I understand doesn't anything to do with intent. Negligence is "the omission to do something which a reasonable man, guided by those considerations which ordinarily regulate the conduct of human affairs, would do" or "a failure to behave with the level of care that someone of ordinary prudence would have exercised under the same circumstances". I can't find the post right now because I forgot which page which was on, but I saw someone saying that negligence would imply that the parent did this intentionally or something like that, but intent doesn't matter. Negligence is about a lack of care or attention not necessarily being done on purpose. Unless I'm mistaken of course I'm not an expert.

I'm not saying you're wrong because I don't think it's up to us to judge these people, but just trying to explain why people might be viewing this differently.

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

It's great to hear from all the perfect people in this thread who are incapable of making mistakes. We're all really impressed.

People need to be educated about this because it's NOT something that only happens to idiots and lowlifes. It could happen to anyone.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Here is an example of one prosecution. It was covered in depth on the Breakdown podcast (season 2).

The poor perp's funny sounding name:

Spoiler

Justin Ross Harris

Uh the guy sexting chicks while his kid boiled alive? Great example.

 

[off duty ninja]

Uh the guy sexting chicks while his kid boiled alive? Great example.

Well he was a cheating SOB but that shouldn't be sufficient evidence to convict someone of murder. I can't say whether he did it on purpose or not but the entire case was made based on circumstantial evidence.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

Not to position myself one way or another about this because honestly I don't think it's up to me or anyone in this thread to be judgmental about people we don't know living under circumstances we have no way of fully grasping, but I think the disconnect you're reading comes from the fact that the concept of negligence as far I understand doesn't anything to do with intent. Negligence is "the omission to do something which a reasonable man, guided by those considerations which ordinarily regulate the conduct of human affairs, would do" or "a failure to behave with the level of care that someone of ordinary prudence would have exercised under the same circumstances". I can't find the post right now because I forgot which page which was on, but I saw someone saying that negligence would imply that the parent did this intentionally or something like that, but intent doesn't matter. Negligence is about a lack of care or attention not necessarily being done on purpose. Unless I'm mistaken of course I'm not an expert.

I'm not saying you're wrong because I don't think it's up to us to judge these people, but just trying to explain why people might be viewing this differently.

Again, as it is a glich in the way our brain works, it would not be negligence is such cases, as you quoted, any reasonable man can also suffer the same fate. Negligence is to leave your kid in the car on purpose while go shopping because it will only take 10 minutes.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

A tragedy is a tragedy, we don't always need to blame someone.

 

[CREMSteve]

I travel every day and use a laptop for work. It goes literally everywhere with me. I never leave it in a car, for fear that it will be stolen (happened my first year in the job, lesson learned) and it always goes in the same place when I'm home, in a hotel, at an airport, etc.

It's basically a part of me at this point.

Last week, I got to an airport I routinely visit multiple times throughout the month. My routine is the same each and every time, walk through the airport doors, head to the rental car agency and drop off my keys, then head to baggage to drop off my luggage before heading upstairs for a bite to eat, then off to security.

It's like clockwork, I could do it in my sleep.

Well, last week, when I got to the baggage conveyor belt, there was a sign that had never been there before. The sign basically said the lady who scans the luggage through was away for a few minutes. Maybe she was in the bathroom, who knows.

What I do know is that simple change, which forced me to wait maybe two minutes on a bench, resulted in me sitting down somewhere I don't normally, placing my laptop bag down and then completely fucking leaving it behind when the woman returned.

I only realized it wasn't on my shoulder like 5 minutes later when panic set in as I tried to figure out why it wasn't on my shoulder.

It came to me pretty quickly, I ran back down and loe and behold it was still sitting right where I left it (bless you, small town airport).

I can totally understand how this could happen to someone. I can also understand how difficult it can be for younger people to understand. But as you get older, stress and even the slightest change to a routine can wreak havoc on you.

Horrible stories for all involved, one can only hope that passerbys notice and step in when these types of things occur.

Should also note though, that I have seen videos of parents intentionally leaving their kids in the car. That's an entirely different story.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgllg7izIkI

Edit - thankfully the Bystanders and eventually, the authorities didn't let her get away with it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2vlPfpjIWk

 

[The Illiterati]

Here is an example of one prosecution. It was covered in depth on the Breakdown podcast (season 2).

The poor perp's funny sounding name:

Spoiler

Justin Ross Harris

I came into this thread to mention this. It didn't quite convince me of his particular innocence, but the podcast itself is a great deep dive into this particular phenomenon of forgotten child syndrome. Before I would've been with the people who think its impossible, but it happens too often to loving parents who would likely feel the same way.

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

It's like addiction. It's like gun safety.

The answer is not to say "This can only happen to bad people, and I'm not a bad person, therefore I don't have to worry about it."

The answer is awareness and education.

 

[Nista]

Man I got left in the car for 5-10 minutes all the time when I was a kid cause I didn't want to go with my mom (not infant, cause how would I remember?). But I'd also have the keys and AC running and the stereo blaring the whole time. Different standards in the 80s for sure. Too bad I was well behaved enough not to drive off and terrorize the parking lot.

I have brain-spaced several times when driving around and forgot to do things on my list or left things at home that I needed. I'm glad I don't have an infant or pet in the car to have to deal with. Then again I also don't have a back seat in my car, so it'd be really hard to leave them behind by accident. Giving all parents convertibles is as useless as throwing them all in jail.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

Not to position myself one way or another about this because honestly I don't think it's up to me or anyone in this thread to be judgmental about people we don't know living under circumstances we have no way of fully grasping, but I think the disconnect you're reading comes from the fact that the concept of negligence as far I understand doesn't anything to do with intent. Negligence is "the omission to do something which a reasonable man, guided by those considerations which ordinarily regulate the conduct of human affairs, would do" or "a failure to behave with the level of care that someone of ordinary prudence would have exercised under the same circumstances". I can't find the post right now because I forgot which page which was on, but I saw someone saying that negligence would imply that the parent did this intentionally or something like that, but intent doesn't matter. Negligence is about a lack of care or attention not necessarily being done on purpose. Unless I'm mistaken of course I'm not an expert.

I'm not saying you're wrong because I don't think it's up to us to judge these people, but just trying to explain why people might be viewing this differently.

I understand that, and don't judge people for expressing outrage and incredulity at the jump. I would be a hypocrite if I did that since that was my initial reaction. I was complaining about a handful of posters who, even after being presented with the evidence (on multiple occasions), refused to budge on the subject.

On the subject of negligence, while it is true that intent is not required, liability is not unlimited. The scope of one's duty of care is limited to those risks that are reasonably foreseeable to an ordinarily prudent person. If a risk is not reasonably foreseeable, how can one be punished for not avoiding it?

Here, one would have to judge whether an ordinarily prudent person would foresee that the decision to drop off their kid at daycare on a day when they are busy, stressed out, and/or sleep-deprived could result in their child's death from hyperthermia. Of course the answer is no. Most people would not be able to foresee such an outcome because common sense tells us that no good parent could ever forget that their child is in the backseat of their car. Period. Not under these circumstances, not under any circumstances. The science appears to indicate that the common sense is wrong, though. The issue is that most people don't know the science; they know the common sense.

 

[ezrarh]

Thinking about how many people drive with their kids in the back seat on any given day, statistically, it's bound to happen that you're going to have someone forget. And of that given population, you're bound to have someone forgot long enough for their child to die. It's a terrible thing but car accidents in general lead to many more child deaths. I think if we're willing to admit car accidents that's not the parents fault can happen, something like this can also happen to anyone. I won't judge too harshly if it was truly an accident.

I propose designing our cities so we don't have to drive everywhere for basic needs.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Again, as it is a glich in the way our brain works, it would not be negligence is such cases, as you quoted, any reasonable man can also suffer the same fate. Negligence is to leave your kid in the car on purpose while go shopping because it will only take 10 minutes.

I think it might still constitute negligence according to one's understanding of the fact. The second link I posted says negligence also "consist of omissions when there is some duty to act" and I haven't read anything about intent or extenuating circumstances making any difference. I'm not an expert though, just pointing out why some people might have used this word to describe what happened as unfortunate as it was.

I understand that, and don't judge people for expressing outrage and incredulity at the jump. I would be a hypocrite if I did that since that was my initial reaction. I was complaining about a handful of posters who, even after being presented with the evidence (on multiple occasions), refused to budge on the subject.

On the subject of negligence, while it is true that intent is not required, liability is not unlimited. The scope of one's duty of care is limited to those risks that are reasonably foreseeable to an ordinarily prudent person. If a risk is not reasonably foreseeable, how can one be punished for not avoiding it?

Here, one would have to judge whether an ordinarily prudent person would foresee that the decision to drop off their kid at daycare on a day when they are busy, stressed out, and/or sleep-deprived could result in their child's death from hyperthermia. Of course the answer is no. Most people would not be able to foresee such an outcome because common sense tells us that no good parent could ever forget that their child is in the backseat of their car. Period. Not under these circumstances, not under any circumstances. The science appears to indicate that the common sense is wrong, though. The issue is that most people don't know the science; they know the common sense.

Sorry man, I didn't mean to imply you were judging people. I meant to say I wouldn't ever judge these people that lived through this because I have no way of knowing them, I really don't think they're monsters but even then my opinion doesn't even matter because regardless of what caused this to happen there's just no getting out of the kind of hell these people must be enduring. So yeah, I agree with you that people being judgmental over this is ridiculous, whatever punishment one might think they deserve is nowhere near the actual punishment they're giving themselves daily.

About negligence, your argument makes sense and I could see that being a more correct way to approach it. I guess it depends on how someone would interpret the legal meaning of the word, but more than anything I don't think it justifies any kind of finger-pointing at these people because that's both besides the point and a very inhumane way to approach this unfortunate situation. I was just pointing out that perhaps some people might say they were negligent or reckless or something like that and not mean it in a judgmental holier than thou way, of course this doesn't apply to drive-by shitposters who shout out about the TERRIBLE PARENTS and this kind of idiocy.