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[rakhir]

They could make a patch 'for crazy people' with uncompressed, even higher resolution backgrounds with a disclaimer that it doesn't work really well, eats RAM like crazy and is not a good way to play the game.

I mean, they can really do what the hell they want, don't really have to deal with publishers and can just please their fans.

 

[Ledsen]

But it doesn't have to be a static angle! Which has been my point the whole time.

It's not actually a technical limitation any longer. Just take the 3D model, spin, render from a different angle, add post processing elements on top. Reserve for locations where this wouldn't impede gameplay.

Choosing to rigidly stick to the isometric angle is simply a design choice; a valid one I might add, but a design choice nonetheless.

Oh, I thought you meant panning and zooming. They could do that I suppose, although I wouldn't really care one way or the other.

 

[duckroll]

Haha @ Sawyer

He's basically like "You've funded a huge ass game..... Fuck."

I really like that one of the first things they want to do is plan out the world size and find the right balance between wilderness and actual locations. It's going to be really important for their productivity moving forward, because they're using fixed maps which means every single area has to be accounted for and they have to make sure they have the time and manpower for each background to be made.

They could make a patch 'for crazy people' with uncompressed, even higher resolution backgrounds with a disclaimer that it doesn't work really well, eats RAM like crazy and is not a good way to play the game.

I mean, they can really do what the hell they want, don't really have to deal with publishers and can just please their fans.

Just call the patch "Dennis Mod". *cough*

 

[subversus]

somebody's gonna crunch a lot

 

[Zeliard]

I really like that one of the first things they want to do is plan out the world size and find the right balance between wilderness and actual locations. It's going to be really important for their productivity moving forward, because they're using fixed maps which means every single area has to be accounted for and they have to make sure they have the time and manpower for each background to be made.

Yeah how they divvy those things up is going to be very critical, taking into account things like memory and budget along with more gameplay-related aspects such as world traversal, pacing, and so on.

Pre-production will probably be somewhat of an annoyance for them but it'll be worth it to take their time there so that everything is planned out carefully and they don't hamstring themselves later on.

Can't wait for the behind-the-scenes documentary. Should have a lot of interesting material.

 

[xenist]

Fuck size restrictions, this is the PC we're talking about. Size is unimportant (at least to those living in advanced societies without download limits). Embrace it. Aspire to be the first game to break 100GB.

 

[duckroll]

Fuck size restrictions, this is the PC we're talking about. Size is unimportant (at least to those living in advanced societies without download limits). Embrace it. Aspire to be the first game to break 100GB.

I don't think Obsidian wants to press 13 DVDs for each of the boxed copies they're going to have to send out to backers...

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Fuck size restrictions, this is the PC we're talking about. Size is unimportant (at least to those living in advanced societies without download limits). Embrace it. Aspire to be the first game to break 100GB.

Um, no?

 

[exmachina64]

They could make a patch 'for crazy people' with uncompressed, even higher resolution backgrounds with a disclaimer that it doesn't work really well, eats RAM like crazy and is not a good way to play the game.

I mean, they can really do what the hell they want, don't really have to deal with publishers and can just please their fans.

Bring it on. I have 16 gigs of RAM.

 

[xenist]

Um, no?

Um, yes.

 

[Keasar]

I don't think Obsidian wants to press 13 DVDs for each of the boxed copies they're going to have to send out to backers...

"Please insert Disc 4"

Getting flashbacks of installing UT2004.

 

[Perkel]

But it doesn't have to be a static angle! Which has been my point the whole time.

It's not actually a technical limitation any longer. Just take the 3D model, spin, render from a different angle, add post processing elements on top. Reserve for locations where this wouldn't impede gameplay.

Choosing to rigidly stick to the isometric angle is simply a design choice; a valid one I might add, but a design choice nonetheless.

Ok i'm starting to know what are you trying to say. Something akin to adventure games or FFVII different screen positions.

Here is why this won't work and should not be pursued:

a) animations. When you have isometric camera there is no lip sync involved no gesticulation no specific character animations, almost anything is resolved as text. When you change perspective for example closer to characters you need to do more proper animation because character standing there doing nothing will look weird.
b) Production cost. We are talking here about kickstarter RPG not high budget game. What you said would very costly for them and since we don't need it (because it's not mayor feature) they should not do it.
c) design aspect. Full party tactical fights don't do well in any other perspective than isometric. So your different perspective simply won't be usefull.

I can see that this may seem good idea for certain locations like taverns and inns but considering a) this need mayor animation work to not look weird.

 

[Lancehead]

They should keep it to 10-15 GB. Then release high-resolution assets.

 

[subversus]

I don't think Obsidian wants to press 13 DVDs for each of the boxed copies they're going to have to send out to backers...

They can send it on flash....

 

[duckroll]

They can send it on flash....

I think pressing 13 DVDs is cheaper than a 100gig flash drive...

 

[Perkel]

Just call the patch "Dennis Mod". *cough*

All bonkers patches from now will be called Dennis

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Um, yes.

So you want 80GB of filler, then?

 

[subversus]

I think pressing 13 DVDs is cheaper than a 100gig flash drive...

Spoiler

they will send a box with goodies AND A DOWNLOAD CODE inside, hahahah

 

[zkylon]

Ok i'm starting to know what are you trying to say. Something akin to adventure games or FFVII different screen positions.

Here is why this won't work and should not be pursued:

a) animations. When you have isometric camera there is no lip sync involved no gesticulation no specific character animations, almost anything is resolved as text. When you change perspective for example closer to characters you need to do more proper animation because character standing there doing nothing will look weird.
b) Production cost. We are talking here about kickstarter RPG not high budget game. What you said would very costly for them and since we don't need it (because it's not mayor feature) they should not do it.
c) design aspect. Full party tactical fights don't do well in any other perspective than isometric. So your different perspective simply won't be usefull.

I can see that this may seem good idea for certain locations like taverns and inns but considering a) this need mayor animation work to not look weird.

I don't think there's so much to it as you think. I mean, it would have to be restricted to scenes without combat and angles that still support the point and click movement, that's for sure, but other than that it shouldn't be so difficult to pull it off.

Chrono Trigger did it and they didn't even have 3D models:

For those special situations, I think it could be pretty cool and unintrusive.

 

[Zeliard]

Release the assets for download afterwards, with a special apology to those constrained by internet bandwidth.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Spoiler

AND A DOWNLOAD CODE insede

That sounds dirty.

 

[xenist]

So you want 80GB of filler, then?

No. I want them to not bother cutting stuff down for size. If it's 20 it's 20. If it's 50 it's 50. If it's more it's more. PCs have space, ram and power to spare even now. A GB is literally nothing.

 

[Ledsen]

No. I want them to not bother cutting stuff down for size. If it's 20 it's 20. If it's 50 it's 50. If it's more it's more. PCs have space, ram and power to spare even now. A GB is literally nothing.

Actually, it's literally a GB.

 

[Lancehead]

No. I want them to not bother cutting stuff down for size. If it's 20 it's 20. If it's 50 it's 50. If it's more it's more. PCs have space, ram and power to spare even now. A GB is literally nothing.

Yeah, but compressing stuff is not cutting stuff, and not everyone is fortunate enough to be living in "advanced societies without download limits".

 

[Durante]

I loled when he said that they target 1080p with their 2D art. It will be veeeery big fitting blu ray disc. At first i was like : You can't be serious it's just 2D ! but then wait original B was just 640x480 art.... and it was like 2,5 GB

Also he did say they want to have many places like in original BG (exploring wilderness), but they want to have BG2 amount of things in places.

Amazing.

This was one of the things I talked to a friend about during the campaign. If you just take one small map (8 1080p screens), and animate the whole thing for one second in a stupid brute-force way (and without compression), you get 1.8 GB of data. So yeah, they need to think about that one!

I wonder if they have considered JPEG2000 compression for the backgrounds. It should fit that type of image better than any other compression I know of, in terms of quality/size.

I'm almost certain it won't be available in any "uncompressed" form. We aren't talking about filling a blu-ray here, we're probably closer to the point of filling a HDD.

 

[xenist]

Actually, it's literally a GB.

The "you are using literally wrong" argument will never get old.

 

[Ledsen]

The "you are using literally wrong" argument will never get old.

Making the world a better place, one word at a time.

 

[Mister_Bubbles]

Here's the completed 15 level megadungeon pic:

 

[Girsej]

Here's the completed 15 level megadungeon pic:

Fixed

 

[Minsc]

This was one of the things I talked to a friend about during the campaign. If you just take one small map (8 1080p screens), and animate the whole thing for one second in a stupid brute-force way (and without compression), you get 1.8 GB of data. So yeah, they need to think about that one!

I wonder if they have considered JPEG2000 compression for the backgrounds. It should fit that type of image better than any other compression I know of, in terms of quality/size.

I'm almost certain it won't be available in any "uncompressed" form. We aren't talking about filling a blu-ray here, we're probably closer to the point of filling a HDD.

Thank god for compression! It will obviously be compressed, as a RAW image uses like 100x more memory (just look at the bottom of a photoshop window) than an indistinguishable jpg (at normal viewing, not zooming in 4000% to compare pixels), even significantly more than a losslessly compressed png or tiff.

Just trying to read a 2GB uncompressed scene would create incredible burdens for loading times, you're talking like 20-30 seconds on slower systems just to load a 2D backdrop!

I imagine they'll use whatever Unity allows that makes sense JPEG2000 can't do more advanced space saving things like use b-frames can it? It probably wouldn't be the most efficient choice if the software has a more dedicated process in it, but it's been a while since I've done video compression beyond simple h 264.

 

[Dennis]

They could make a patch 'for crazy people' with uncompressed, even higher resolution backgrounds with a disclaimer that it doesn't work really well, eats RAM like crazy and is not a good way to play the game.

I mean, they can really do what the hell they want, don't really have to deal with publishers and can just please their fans.

Thats a great idea. That would also make it interesting to reinstall and play the game with better hardware for those who had to settle at first.

Me, I will play it at max right away. Its an RPG for christ's sake, 12-15 fps should do it.

 

[SerArthurDayne]

http://i.imgur.com/Ayktx.jpg[/IM]

Fixed ;)[/QUOTE]

Looks like they are doing something visually interesting with the bottom couple of levels, hopefully it translates.

No foot, and I don't think we are going to get any lower.

But what exactly is holding the water up at the belt level?

 

[subversus]

But what exactly is holding the water up at the belt level?

the magical power of his groin

 

[Lancehead]

Transparent version of the dungeon, to remove all that ugly white:

 

[Taruranto]

I want the last floor to be an huge troll.

 

[Zeliard]

Looks like level 11 is party time.

 

[SerArthurDayne]

I want the last floor to be an huge troll.

Statue is really a Stone Golem that animates when you cross the threshold into the last level.

 

[Durante]

JPEG2000 can't do more advanced space saving things like use b-frames can it?

It's an image compression format, not a movie compression format, so no. Instead of being based on a cosine transform like JPEG it's based on a wavelet transform, which is just totally magical (I read a paper and implemented it once, and it amazed me how well it works).

I was assuming they'd go with static images with animation overlays (maybe realtime rendered?), not straight-up "movie backgrounds". If the latter, of course a movie compression format would make more sense.

 

[duckroll]

I wonder if that dungeon illustration is even going to be remotely accurate in terms of the actual implementation. Would they feel bound by what they have shown in the illustration? If they have better ideas when actually making the dungeon, I hope they don't feel that this artwork is some sort of promise in terms of what each floor of the dungeon will have.

 

[mclem]

Looks like they are doing something visually interesting with the bottom couple of levels, hopefully it translates.

I'm pretty sure this is just an artistic totaliser, not an actual rendition of the intended content. Although given how the Titan was recieved, I wouldn't be surprised if that ended up as a factor.

But what exactly is holding the water up at the belt level?

Maybe it's not water; maybe it's a pane of glass. Now *that* would be intriguing!

 

[Zeliard]

I wonder if that dungeon illustration is even going to be remotely accurate in terms of the actual implementation. Would they feel bound by what they have shown in the illustration? If they have better ideas when actually making the dungeon, I hope they don't feel that this artwork is some sort of promise in terms of what each floor of the dungeon will have.

I think it's just meant to be an abstract representation of the concept.

 

[Perkel]

But what exactly is holding the water up at the belt level?

it isn't water and it's white

 

[Ledsen]

I think it's just meant to be an abstract representation of the concept.

Yeah I don't see that drawing having any influence whatsoever on the final design unless they really want it to.

 

[Ithil]

I wonder if that dungeon illustration is even going to be remotely accurate in terms of the actual implementation. Would they feel bound by what they have shown in the illustration? If they have better ideas when actually making the dungeon, I hope they don't feel that this artwork is some sort of promise in terms of what each floor of the dungeon will have.

I think they said on the livestream that it was a rough representation of the style of the dungeon, but nothing beyond that. I assume they've planned, as in the drawing, that it will progress from dungeon, to mine, to caves, to catacombs, but other than that, it will all be designed and built much later.

I expect that giant statue will be kept in some form somewhere in the dungeon, though, it's a neat concept to follow down through the levels.

 

[duckroll]

I think they said on the livestream that it was a rough representation of the style of the dungeon, but nothing beyond that. I assume they've planned, as in the drawing, that it will progress from dungeon, to mine, to caves, to catacombs, but other than that, it will all be designed and built much later.

I expect that giant statue will be kept in some form somewhere in the dungeon, though, it's a neat concept to follow down through the levels.

Cool. Nice to know they've actually talked about that. I think they'll probably keep the visual style of the illustration within the dungeon, but I'm glad that they're not going to feel constrained by the rough illustration.

 

[Lancehead]

Looks like level 11 is party time.

No, that's where you set up camp. After much toil.

 

[exmachina64]

If they do intend to use the dungeon illustration as an abstract representation, I hope we are able to see the entirety of the stone giant.

 

[Lancehead]

If they do intend to use the dungeon illustration as an abstract representation, I hope we are able to see the entirety of the stone giant.

I think that's a given - it'd be stupid otherwise. Assuming the giant is a critical element of that dungeon.

 

[Zaptruder]

I think that's a given - it'd be stupid otherwise. Assuming the giant is a critical element of that dungeon.

Well, mainly, despite what's drawn up there, I want to see the feet of the stone giant when I get to the bottom dammit!

 

[Zaptruder]

I don't think there's so much to it as you think. I mean, it would have to be restricted to scenes without combat and angles that still support the point and click movement, that's for sure, but other than that it shouldn't be so difficult to pull it off.

Chrono Trigger did it and they didn't even have 3D models:

For those special situations, I think it could be pretty cool and unintrusive.

God! Thank you!

I really should've gotten my ass to do a quick image search to show people what I was talking about. I just didn't think it'd be that difficult to get though.