I don't see why not. They almost got four times the original goal, so they could hire a lot more people to work on the game, so it doesn't really need to affect the schedule of the development that much. The only reason I could see this being delayed is if the beta brings up some huge problems that need to be fixed before they release the game, requiring a month or a few of extra polishing.
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Pillars of Eternity by Obsidian Entertainment (Kickstarter) [Up: Teaser]
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MesserWolf
Member
of course you can hire additional resources, but there are limits to that.
above a certain size the dev team, just become inefficient .... you spend more and more time discussing and coordinating the various parts/persons.
This is just to say that it is not enough or so simple as : just hire more people and problem solved.
I don't know about the delay, feels like at worst it might be a short delay, like 4 months. They seem to have much of the pre-production sorted out, specifically the lore and worldbuilding, maybe they're just shaping up the actual story and characters, but the most demanding part of creating the universe sounds like it's almost done.
I wonder how big the team will be. I imagine something like 10-15 full-time guys, plus a lot of part-time people doing stuff like writing, etc. Doesn't seem so impossible, there's tons of extensions made for Unity that can really speed up work, and developing for just one platform will help a lot.
I wonder how big the team will be. I imagine something like 10-15 full-time guys, plus a lot of part-time people doing stuff like writing, etc. Doesn't seem so impossible, there's tons of extensions made for Unity that can really speed up work, and developing for just one platform will help a lot.
MesserWolf
Member
well, I would expect old games to bring a lot of more troubles than recent games, which would translate in potential angry customers and in the need to streghenth the support (or at least train them for the specific problems).
All these things considered It is probably not that attractive, from an economic point of view.
Different case for GOG which built its business around those games, especially because they were not already covered by any other DD service.
It works really well in Darklands, which this system was compared to. I don't expect enemies to coup de grace characters that are unconscious. But we'll see.
Maiming sounds fun.
Well, we're not talking about AAA 4000 people working on one game level stuff, even if they had, like, 3 times more people working on it than they originally planned to have. You can still be plenty efficient with a team-size of 30-40 or something, especially with no publisher interference.
Couple ideas about graphics...
Because they're using a hybrid 2D/3D system (3D characters, 2D backgrounds), they could definetly pimp out the graphics in key areas a little more.
Take some notes from Final Fantasy on PSX, Resident Evil Zero remake on the Game Cube - and have some more cinematic camera angles, plus character models receiving and giving off light (magic spells, torches) to the environment.
Even some cinematic rotation and panning during key moments (again like the FF series on the PSX).
Even if most of the game should operate from the isometric view, it should definetly take advantage of the 3D characters that they'll be using.
Because they're using a hybrid 2D/3D system (3D characters, 2D backgrounds), they could definetly pimp out the graphics in key areas a little more.
Take some notes from Final Fantasy on PSX, Resident Evil Zero remake on the Game Cube - and have some more cinematic camera angles, plus character models receiving and giving off light (magic spells, torches) to the environment.
Even some cinematic rotation and panning during key moments (again like the FF series on the PSX).
Even if most of the game should operate from the isometric view, it should definetly take advantage of the 3D characters that they'll be using.
Spectacular Dr Dawg
Member
I hope the final product is successful enough thath they can do a horror rpg after this.
I'd also like to see them make an adventure game.
I'd also like to see them make an adventure game.
I'm pretty sure they said they won't be putting in FMV. 3D characters are still useful for the easier animation.
edit: Besides, lots of those Final Fantasy perspective tricks only work when the field of vision and resolution are fixed. I'll be astounded if Eternity is limited to a single FOV.
No offence, but I seriously hope most of what you said is not in the game.
They mentioned a few times that they will have 20-22 people working on the game full-time, with the possibility of more joining the team once south park is done.
I agree with you. Hopefully this remains a true to form isometric game with tasteful improvements and not a lot of graphical bells and whistles being added.
To be honest, I think that when the project started, they had almost nothing really planned. The story\design team must have been pulling double shifts just to create enough lore for the Kickstarter campaign.
Either way, I don't mind the delay, I'll just let them make it the best game possible.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I doubt very highly that they were writing on the fly.
It's pretty amazing that we managed in so few posts to invent a delay, contemplate it and be fine with it
Hopefully many people that backed the project have a similar attitude. Obsidian's number 1 problem has always been being rushed in their process.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Its probably stuff the core have been kicking around for years.It's pretty amazing that we managed in so few posts to invent a delay, contemplate it and be fine with it
And this sort of lore is not something you invent on the spot, it's well thought out stuff. They've been planning this for some time.
It doesn't need to be a full on cutscene. Just the ability to incorporate some dramatic camera changes when occasion calls for it. Because it's now possible to do so.
Also, those perspective tricks will work fine irrespective of resolution and aspect ratio; just render max at a target resolution and ratio, and crop and resize to fit.
Basically, include more than just a single camera angle and have characters and environments reflect the presence of each other? I'm pretty sure that's pretty damn standard in any 2012 game.
It doesn't have to be excessive. The only point is that the option to break away from fixed camera is now in their toolbox should they choose to use it - should it better fit the drama and narrative of the scene.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
While I'm not that against camera tricks (and lighting in particular seems a good bonus for mid-end and above systems), I don't see how rotation could be pulled while keeping 2D backgrounds without driving up the cost. I'd also prefer the focus to be on descriptive text to set the scene rather than cinematic stuff, though that's a matter of personal taste I suppose.
I'm honestly not interested in the staff wasting a second of their time on any sort of dynamic or cinematic presentation at all. I want all the graphical effort put into the background art, the combat animations, and just making sure everything runs really smoothly. I don't care for voice or cutscenes in a RPG like this, instead I want more writing and maybe a large character portrait on screen when I'm talking to someone - like in the Fallout games.
It should be fast and direct, not bogged down with canned animations and anything which tries to create something dramatic - because that's not what the game is intended to be.
Edit: And for what it's worth Sawyer himself has said that he doesn't really consider the NWN games to be really "Infinity Engine style" games like this game will be - precisely because of the difference in camera and presentation. So it feels good that the project director is on our side!
It should be fast and direct, not bogged down with canned animations and anything which tries to create something dramatic - because that's not what the game is intended to be.
Edit: And for what it's worth Sawyer himself has said that he doesn't really consider the NWN games to be really "Infinity Engine style" games like this game will be - precisely because of the difference in camera and presentation. So it feels good that the project director is on our side!
Including more than one camera angle will be confusing and horrible in any battle situation, where you need the overhead view. The beauty of the IE engine was that the presentation was uniform and did not try and go for any sort of cinematic-schtick it couldn't pull off, so you could allow yourself to sink into it. Trying the have cinematic camera angles will just be distracting. This works in RE and FF games because they're already cinematic in nature, that's the way they present their world to you.
But I'm obviously not against lightning or using the 3D models to make the game look better, because that won't hurt the experience. I wouldn't need them to concentrate too hard on that, but it should at least be a good match for the gorgeous backgrounds we'll probably see.
You're really grasping for strawmen here.
I trust that they're competent designers and know when and how to employ camera changes that best suit the game and when it doesn't.
Moreover, you can always have cinematic angles for exposition, then switch to traditional isometric for battles; they're not limited to a single render per scene.
Of course it's possible to envision where the use of such functionality could be done poorly, but it's at the same time, far from impossible to envision it been done well enough to justify its use.
If there's a reasonable argument against the idea; it's in having to model ceilings and skyboxes to allow for perspectives other than a more top down isometric view. But even that really doesn't hold that much water if you keep the use of the cinematic angle restricted to few areas. But if it's rare enough, then it might be better to keep consistency. Having a dozen cinematic angles out of hundreds maybe thousands of screens might do little to enhance the overall game.
All I'm saying is, hey 3D models make this kinda stuff possible!
It just doesn't make sense to me. How would they change the camera angle when the world is in 2D? They would have to recreate the location you're currently on in full 3D and switch to that just so you could see the camera panning and have some cinematic angles during dialogs / cutscenes. I realize that they probably wouldn't have to create the 3D scenario from scratch, since they first model the world in 3D and then take a snapshot of it. But they are not bothered with the whole 360° view and they also add a lot of the detail in 'post production', painting over the snapshot.
Whichever way you look at it, it's just too much work for little or no gain. Especially when nobody really expects them to make something like this, considering this is supposed to be an IE-style game. I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool to have something like this, but I'd rather they'd concentrate on other stuff.
Game is 2D with 3D characters. They can't do it because world is 2D and nothing will change it.
You can't simply create 3D cuscene from 3D world.
edit: lol *2D world
IIRC, they had about 2 or 3 months of pre-production before they announced the Kickstarter (they started in July). So.. no, they didn't write shit on the fly.
StoppedInTracks
Member
This is amazing as I cannot name one Unity engine game. How is this engine so popular? I only recognized the name cause it pops up before dozens of shovelware free iOS titles. (not a dig at the engine, though)
It's cheap and has good tools.
It's used in a lot of games that you might not have realised, but it's particularly well-suited for cheap mobile development which is why that's where you're most aware of it.
Some more significant games (i.e. ones I'd heard of that I don't particularly associate with phones) that used it:
Escape Plan
Rochard
AAAaaaaaaAAAAaaaaa!!!
Bob Came In Pieces
Cthulhu Saves The World (phone version only? Not sure)
Desktop Dungeons
Splice
Because it's easy to code up and have it work on Windows, Linux and Mac. For a small developer, that's a godsend.
Joseph Merrick
Member
lmao. since you're referencing ff on ps1, I'd just like to point out that the infinity engine games are newer than the ff series stuff on ps1. what a bunch of old and outdated ideas! haha.
Also Dead Trigger and ShadowGun.
The characters may be 3D, but the environments are still 2D. Yes, they start with a 3D environment, but then they take a snapshot, and add a whole bunch of hand-painted 2D details. How do you expect them to rotate that without a significant increase in costs?
Not saying it's a bad idea, but this would be a pretty major shift in art direction, and would disappoint a whole lot of a backers who were expecting a game in the spirit of IE classics.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
Only hopefully without Planescape's dire CG cutscenes!
Update #28
Dynamic environment integration - Animated objects, interactive objects, ambient visual effects, water, dynamic lights and shadows
YES
YESS!
*pelvic thrusts*
Dynamic environment integration - Animated objects, interactive objects, ambient visual effects, water, dynamic lights and shadows
YES
YESS!
*pelvic thrusts*
They did promise a huuuuge game. A blend of BG1 freedom and BG2 content density, with 2 cities, with visual fidelity of that screenshot is difficult to imagine.
Not to mention it will potentially do a lot as far as character interactions and player choice.
It's a massively ambitious game, and I think they'll pull it off swimmingly. No interference from shitty publishers and essentially free reign, as well as intimate familiarity with the genre and a highly talented core group of designers. So long as they budget it properly in pre-production, they shouldn't run into significant problems.
I kinda don't want to discuss the issue anymore, given the preponderance of opinion is clearly against the idea....
But to clarify, you'd reserve the use of it for some dramatic scenes. Maybe the entry into the infinite dungeon; you'd have a shot of the cliff/mountain face with the entry embedded in, or perhaps there's a lengthy bridge where no combat is intended; but the drama of the bridge is better served with an angle that is better able to show off the entire length of the bridge.
Anyway... glad to see that I at least called the dynamic reflections (or giving and receiving of light) of characters and environments.
I loled when he said that they target 1080p with their 2D art. It will be veeeery big fitting blu ray disc. At first i was like : You can't be serious it's just 2D ! but then wait original B was just 640x480 art.... and it was like 2,5 GB
Also he did say they want to have many places like in original BG (exploring wilderness), but they want to have BG2 amount of things in places.
Amazing.
Also he did say they want to have many places like in original BG (exploring wilderness), but they want to have BG2 amount of things in places.
Amazing.
Of course they will add all the bells and whistles they can within the constraints they have. Unfortunately those constraints include a static camera angle, and there's really nothing they can do to change that.
I hope it's 20 gigs big. It means it'll be beautiful
I hope it's 20 gigs big. It means it'll be beautiful
I want 40GB glory. I wonder how muc htext their predict for a game
But it doesn't have to be a static angle! Which has been my point the whole time.
It's not actually a technical limitation any longer. Just take the 3D model, spin, render from a different angle, add post processing elements on top. Reserve for locations where this wouldn't impede gameplay.
Choosing to rigidly stick to the isometric angle is simply a design choice; a valid one I might add, but a design choice nonetheless.
I hope it's 20 gigs big. It means it'll be beautiful
I'd expect a bunch of high resolution backdrops... but if we are to extrapolate from say BG2 and say the target resolution is 2560x1600 (30" monitor), take into account better compression techniques...
A rough back of the napkin calculations might give us something closer to 10 gigs. The rest of the data (outside of the high res backdrops) should be relatively small in comparison; no FMV, minimal voice acting, 3D model data and animations that take a relatively small amount of space...
20 gigs would mean the game is.... 2.5-3 times the size of BG2!