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[HoosTrax]

And yet we have immersion breaking tropes all the time in RPGs.

Like walking into someone's house, breaking into all of their locked chests and stealing out of them, all while the homeowner is standing there like nothing is happening. (Or alternatively, the buckethead / see-no-evil shoplifting phenomenon from Skyrim)

Or, "hello stranger I've never met before, it's totally kosher and socially acceptable of me to foist this random quest on you, in which you must risk life and limb."

 

[water_wendi]

And yet we have immersion breaking tropes all the time in RPGs.

Like walking into someone's house, breaking into all of their locked chests and stealing out of them, all while the homeowner is standing there like nothing is happening. (Or alternatively, the buckethead / see-no-evil shoplifting phenomenon from Skyrim)

Or, "hello stranger I've never met before, it's totally kosher and socially acceptable of me to foist this random quest on you, in which you must risk life and limb."

Good immersion comes with good gameplay mechanics. The theivery in TES sucks.

 

[Sharp]

Maybe i should explain before i offend anyone. You dont need immersion as its defined in the gaming industry today to immerse the player fully. You need engaging content to immerse the audience. Civilization or HoMM has had me more immersed in the game than any game by any developer that prides themselves on "immersion."

i edited my original comment to include this.

Sure, but if those games modified some fundamental part of the core of the game, I think it would break that immersion. For example, suppose in Civ you were playing Mongolia but getting crushed in the late game by the superior American tech. But there was a gameplay mechanic that literally just let you swap places with them. Wouldn't you feel like that cheapened what you'd done so far? Wouldn't that sort of break the immersion of running an empire from start to glorious finish? That's basically what respeccing does, so for it to happen in a roleplaying game there has to be a really good gameplay reason.

And yet we have immersion breaking tropes all the time in RPGs.

Like walking into someone's house, breaking into all of their locked chests and stealing out of them, all while the homeowner is standing there like nothing is happening. (Or alternatively, the buckethead / see-no-evil shoplifting phenomenon from Skyrim)

Or, "hello stranger I've never met before, it's totally kosher and socially acceptable of me to foist this random quest on you, in which you must risk life and limb."

Pretty sure the buckethead thing is a bug, not a core part of the gameplay And yeah, the fact that every stranger is willing to pour out his or her life story to you isn't the most immersive thing in the world. There are a ton of immersion-breaking things in Skyrim though, and the big ones (like level scaling for NPCs and items) are a lot worse than either of those you mentioned, IMO. The game still manages to immerse me though, because it is so fucking awesome to explore. I think those of us in this thread expect a different sort of immersion from Obsidian.

 

[dude]

And yet we have immersion breaking tropes all the time in RPGs.

Like walking into someone's house, breaking into all of their locked chests and stealing out of them, all while the homeowner is standing there like nothing is happening. (Or alternatively, the buckethead / see-no-evil shoplifting phenomenon from Skyrim)

Or, "hello stranger I've never met before, it's totally kosher and socially acceptable of me to foist this random quest on you, in which you must risk life and limb."

Most good western games treat those with the right amount of care to not break immersion. Most of these tropes are more common in JRPGs or Hack n' Slash game, where immersion means jack shit. BG2 and PS:T, for example, almost never broke immersion for me.

Sufficiently powerful deities can explain just about anything Like I said, it's more of a reward at that point--if you've basically maxed out your level, learned all the appropriate abilities, and done all the unique quests, there's really not a lot of gameplay reasons left for you to stay as the character you are. I've seen it a lot in MUDs, where there are reasons you'd want to use the same character with a different spec rather than just restart the game.

Deities are a handwaving trope, and this is something that is very hard to hand wave... You are basically trying to justify someone being reborn as a whole new person mid-game with minimal comments about it from people around you. I mean, who are you, the goddamn Doctor?

 

[turk128]

I'm saying that in a good role-playing game, the player doesn't have suffer for making a "wrong" decision, there should be multiple ways to enjoy the game. In role-playing, there are only different paths, no wrong paths - In gameplay, there are definite worst strategical paths.

Hmmm... I guess it just comes down to how you play the game and what your goals are; if you want to save the kingdom and rescue the princess while obtaining the awesome Sword of Light... then proceed to be an arsehole, your goals should be harder and harder to obtain. The ending would then be a bad ending for you.

I don't know, I'm used to D&D where respeccing is not even close to existing. It seems weird to me you could just... change yourself mid-game. I mean, that's who you are. Even deities can't sufficiently explain that.

I swear there's a magical item or two that lets you respec in D&D 3x. Worst comes to worst, you can role the die and go for a resurrection (basically a hard reset on your character).

 

[water_wendi]

Sure, but if those games modified some fundamental part of the core of the game, I think it would break that immersion. For example, suppose in Civ you were playing Mongolia but getting crushed in the late game by the superior American tech. But there was a gameplay mechanic that literally just let you swap places with them. Wouldn't you feel like that cheapened what you'd done so far? Wouldn't that sort of break the immersion of running an empire from start to glorious finish? That's basically what respeccing does, so for it to happen in a roleplaying game there has to be a really good gameplay reason.

That doesnt sound very fun but if it was fun in practice it wouldnt really slow me down. It would still be time for work before i knew it.

 

[dude]

Hmmm... I guess it just comes down to how you play the game and what your goals are; if you want to save the kingdom and rescue the princess while obtaining the awesome Sword of Light... then proceed to be an arsehole, your goals should be harder and harder to obtain. The ending would then be a bad ending for you.

The game should go with your goals and reward efforts. So if by bad you mean evil (not bad, as in, a lesser ending) than you're right.

I swear there's a magical item or two that lets you respec in D&D 3x. Worst comes to worst, you can role the die and go for a resurrection (basically a hard reset on your character).

There's nothing in D&D that lets you rearrange any stats unless someone house-rules that in. And being resurrected just... resurrects you character. The only way to respecc is to create a new character. Which makes sense, your stats define who you are, they're not just a bunch of number to see how you do in combat, they describe everything about you - You can't just change that. Respecing belongs in more combat and result oriented games.

 

[Pachterballs]

We were actually contacted by some publishers over the last few months that wanted to use us to do a Kickstarter. I said to them "So, you want us to do a Kickstarter for, using our name, we then get the Kickstarter money to make the game, you then publish the game, but we then don't get to keep the brand we make and we only get a portion of the profits" They said, "Yes".

That is bloody disgusting. Shacknews/Giantbomb etc one of these news outlet should contact and find out who these publishers are and name and shame.

 

[turk128]

Immersion is a worthless objective for any developer to shoot for.

edit:

Maybe i should explain before i offend anyone. You dont need immersion as its defined in the gaming industry today to immerse the player fully. You need engaging content to immerse the audience. Civilization or HoMM has had me more immersed in the game than any game by any developer that prides themselves on "immersion."

Heh, yeah, that's the type of immersion that people in gaming know nowadays.

The old-school immersion that tabletop gamers know comes from how deep you get into your character which depends greatly on how good a story they are in.

 

[Sharp]

That doesnt sound very fun but if it was fun in practice it wouldnt really slow me down. It would still be time for work before i knew it.

I think there's a pretty substantial difference between immersive and crack-level addictive like Civ. Compare Civ to something like Crusader Kings II, for example (or another Paradox game, but that's the one I've played). Fun for very different reasons. I don't know if I'd call Super Metroid an addictive game in the way that Super Mario World was, but damn if it wasn't incredibly immersive. Or Half-Life vs. Counterstrike, to choose a more recent example. They all have their place in the game world, but all things being equal I expect immersion from Obsidian RPGs (a roguelike like Etrian Odyssey falls more on the 'addictive' side of the spectrum, I think).

 

[water_wendi]

That is bloody disgusting. Shacknews/Giantbomb etc one of these news outlet should contact and find out who these publishers are and name and shame.

i know i should be outraged but i find it funny more than anything else. Perhaps i would have had a different reaction if i heard about this but the developer had accepted. Could you imagine the conversation? lol "Yeah, uhh, we've had a meeting and decided to go in a different direction. Thanks though!"

 

[dude]

I think there's a pretty substantial difference between immersive and crack-level addictive like Civ. I don't know if I'd call Super Metroid an addictive game in the way that Super Mario World was, but damn if it wasn't incredibly immersive. Or Half-Life vs. Counterstrike, to choose a more recent example. They all have their place in the game world, but all things being equal I expect immersion from Obsidian RPGs (a roguelike like Etrian Odyssey falls more on the 'addictive' side of the spectrum, I think).

Exactly, and respecing belongs more in the addictive category than the immersive category.

 

[NZNova]

That is bloody disgusting. Shacknews/Giantbomb etc one of these news outlet should contact and find out who these publishers are and name and shame.

Email Patrick Klepek if you think it's newsworthy, he'll probably follow up on it if he agrees.

 

[Sentenza]

With what money?

that's the point: with Kickstarter money.

 

[dude]

that's the point: with Kickstarter money.

They do seem to be desperate enough for something like this.

 

[Arksy]

I've been burned too often by Obsidians incredibly buggy and unfinished games to invest this early. Will definitely check it out on completion.

 

[Gattsu25]

I've been burned too often by Obsidians incredibly buggy and unfinished games to invest this early. Will definitely check it out on completion.

Okay. Will hear from you then.

 

[BlazinAm]

Okay. Will hear from you then.

HEHE That was a good one.

 

[water_wendi]

that's the point: with Kickstarter money.

Do their phones even work?

 

[dude]

I've been burned too often by Obsidians incredibly buggy and unfinished games to invest this early. Will definitely check it out on completion.

Eh, WRPGs are always buggy, it's just something you learn to live with.

 

[WanderingWind]

MEANWHILE AT OBSIDIAN'S CRIB

NotEA - "Hey, Obsidian. Been checking you out. Word on the street is, you got cache. How would you like a job?"

Obsidian - "Well, that depends. What would I be doing?"

NotEA - "I got ideas, baby. See, you got a lot of great assets and I'd like to put them to work, ya know? Get you out there, smile it for a few gamers, see what happens. If they like what you do, then can show their gratitude. In a fiduciary sense, nahmean?"

Obsidian - "That...doesn't sound nice. But...I could use the work. You know, Dungeon Siege 3 didn't do so well, and I got a fanbase to feed...and you say the money's good?"

NotEA - "Yeah, you know, for me. As your "publisher" I'd protect you from Tractivision and buy you lots of nice outfits, promote you and help you get your name out there. All that good shit. In return, I get my cut of the cash. But, you can't work for nobody else. Or I'd have to cut you."

Obsidian - "Cut me? That sounds extre-"

NotEA - "Look, baby, it don't have to come to that. You just make me my money, you get to do something you love anyway, and the fans get some company. It's a win-win-win."

Obsidian - "Man, I don't know. Can I at least keep the outfits?"

NotEA - "Hell nah, bitch. This ain't a charity."

 

[turk128]

There's nothing in D&D that lets you rearrange any stats unless someone house-rules that in. And being resurrected just... resurrects you character. The only way to respecc is to create a new character. Which makes sense, your stats define who you are, they're not just a bunch of number to see how you do in combat, they describe everything about you - You can't just change that.

I'm a 2e/4e player myself and didn't know about this til buddies told me about it in their campaign. Psychic Reformation from page 127 in Expanded Psionics Handbook; only deals with skills and feats thou so, yes, no way to respec.

And, d'oh, I've been mixing resurrection and reincarnation. Reincarnation in the older D&D was pretty hilarious with possibility of you coming back as an animal.

 

[Deleted member 102362]

1.7 million crossed. Woo!

 

[dude]

I'm a 2e/4e player myself and didn't know about this til buddies told me about it in their campaign. Psychic Reformation from page 127 in Expanded Psionics Handbook; only deals with skills and feats thou so, yes, no way to respec.

And, d'oh, I've been mixing resurrection and reincarnation. Reincarnation in the older D&D was pretty hilarious with possibility of you coming back as an animal.

I played 2e mainly, but I stopped at 3.5e. And I always hated psionic, they are just wrong, this is just further proof for that.

Reincarnation effects only race, the character retains all abilities (save for new race modifiers), classes, levels etc. So it's not really respecing

Also, WOOHOO 1.7m, yeah baby!

 

[superdeluxe]

Average pledge per member went up one dollar to 41.

Better overall day today (by 16-17k). Even though less new backers By 140

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Josh Sawyer ‏@jesawyer

in tomorrow's #projecteternity update, i'll talk about SOULS, mechanics, and a new pledge tier aimed at forum communities #assembleyourcrew

Shagg! GAF Inn!

Yes!! Get your paypal accounts ready, people!

 

[WanderingWind]

We're what, the second biggest forum online behind SA?

I think we can do this.

 

[Sharp]

We're what, the second biggest forum online behind SA?

I think we can do this.

Last time I checked that wasn't even close to being the case.

 

[dude]

Yes!! Get your paypal accounts ready, people!

Damnit, guess I won't be eating this month

 

[Fredescu]

We're what, the second biggest forum online behind SA?

I think we can do this.

No idea how accurate these stats are though, but Big Boards says in the video game category, we're 5th by posts, but like 137th by members: http://www.big-boards.com/kw/video-games/

That's ignoring the general communities like SA and Reddit.

 

[WanderingWind]

Last time I checked that wasn't even close to being the case.

Last I checked, I don't really care. Point is, we've got the crew assembled already.

No idea how accurate these stats are though, but Big Boards says in the video game category, we're 5th by posts, but like 137th by members: http://www.big-boards.com/kw/video-games/

That's ignoring the general communities like SA and Reddit.

Goddamn. 508 posts per member. We're killing it!

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

GAF is pretty strict, there's no way we are the second biggest.

 

[~Kinggi~]

Smart move on that communities thing. Pretty sure they watching them like a hawk.

 

[SerArthurDayne]

Average pledge per member went up one dollar to 41.

Better overall day today (by 16-17k). Even though less new backers By 140

How do old pledgers count? Because digital only peeps and those who wanted Beta but already donated probably account for all of that difference by upping their pledges. I assume the total pledged today goes up, but they stay as 1 pledger from an earlier day.

Anyways, I expect this bump will be relatively short lived, and that is why the daily info teases are a great idea, keep small bumps along the way.

 

[Eusis]

How do you even explain respeccing from a in-game perspective and not completely ruin the immersion?

How do you explain 90% of any games mechanics without ruining immersion?

Answer: Don't do it in character like Metal Gear loves to do.

EDIT: I seem to have missed the angle of taking the game fully literally. I think EVERY game falls apart to some extent when you do that, why am I banging on an enemy with a sword without killing them quickly or at least impairing them? Why is the same not happening to me, and I can always survive fully intact even without magical aid? I think it's dumb to sweat that too much for a video game and it's better to just roll with it, it's not like a pen & paper game where you can iron out the discrepancies through role playing.

 

[subversus]

An educated guess:

wow, I never knew that Freddy Mercury worked at Interplay.

 

[zkylon]

wow, I never knew that Freddy Mercury worked at Interplay.

At least his evil twin does.

 

[Perkel]

Looks like it will reach 1,8 if 5-10 hours. Money definitely now flow faster

 

[subversus]

so far they are running it pretty good.

A steady trickle of updates = money flow constantly

 

[Perkel]

so far they are running it pretty good.

A steady trickle of updates = money flow constantly

Yep, the more they will do interviews and updates the more people will know about this kickstarter.

 

[subversus]

I guess we'll see gameplay in the last few days.

 

[Dennis]

Going to be fun to see how the rate changes when the update news rolls in today.

 

[Lancehead]

I'm saying that in a good role-playing game, the player doesn't have suffer for making a "wrong" decision, there should be multiple ways to enjoy the game. In role-playing, there are only different paths, no wrong paths - In gameplay, there are definite worst strategical paths.

Yes, it's not about the system compensating for your actions but about reacting to your actions. These reactions need not be equal for each type of action. For example, if you're being hostile to every faction you come across your life would be much more difficult than if you're friendly with some of them. This is not considered a wrong path so much as a different path where reactions of the world are in accordance with your actions.

I'm not advocating equal consequences for each and every path you take, but consequences that make sense in the world according to the actions and motivations of various groups and individuals. Severe consequences do not mean unfair to the player.

 

[mclem]

There's nothing in D&D that lets you rearrange any stats unless someone house-rules that in. And being resurrected just... resurrects you character. The only way to respecc is to create a new character. Which makes sense, your stats define who you are, they're not just a bunch of number to see how you do in combat, they describe everything about you - You can't just change that. Respecing belongs in more combat and result oriented games.

On the other hand, though, in D&D it's quite possible to create a new character *and rejoin the established campaign*, which isn't something available in all that many CRPGs. Maybe that's the *real* solution to this: Don't permit respeccing, but *do* permit a new player character to join the campaign at an inn (or something) while resting your original main (which you can swap back to if you wish later on)

There is a *big* problem with it in that it restricts the types of story you can reasonably tell; you can no longer make the story be *about* your character - but if the story's about the world, it should just about fit together.


(What console/computer RPGs do this? Etrian Odyssey springs to mind - your 'character' is actually a guild, and you generate guild members to form the actual party that does the dungeon-delving. I think it's something that was commoner in the past)

 

[dude]

How do you explain 90% of any games mechanics without ruining immersion?

Answer: Don't do it in character like Metal Gear loves to do.

EDIT: I seem to have missed the angle of taking the game fully literally. I think EVERY game falls apart to some extent when you do that, why am I banging on an enemy with a sword without killing them quickly or at least impairing them? Why is the same not happening to me, and I can always survive fully intact even without magical aid? I think it's dumb to sweat that too much for a video game and it's better to just roll with it, it's not like a pen & paper game where you can iron out the discrepancies through role playing.

I very, very much disagree with you. This game is supposed to be a role playing game, not Diablo or Amalur. This not about going around killing people or having the best possibly build, this is about immersing yourself in a world and story. Metal Gear is a horrible comparison as well. The things you're describing are pretty easy of a disbelief to suspend, but who you are is an essential component of an RPG. Almost everything in an RPG is defined by who your character is. This is not some oddity you hand-wave, this is a full-on breach of immersion to the fullest extent.

Could you even imagine BG2 with respecing? If the bhaalspawn, after travelling with a group of people he interacted with, became friends with, romanced with, just changed his whole self to minimal consequences by hand waving with some bullshit?
Or in PS:T? Did the Nameless One suddenly remember a different set of skills and change his entire persona just mid game? (Though I guess it's more plausible here if they really wanted to implement it, but thankfully they didn't.)

These are not the type of games where you throw something like that in the world in the name of fun, because it ruins the biggest fun you can have from this game, immersing yourself in the setting and story and role-playing your character.

On the other hand, though, in D&D it's quite possible to create a new character *and rejoin the established campaign*, which isn't something available in all that many CRPGs. Maybe that's the *real* solution to this: Don't permit respeccing, but *do* permit a new player character to join the campaign at an inn (or something) while resting your original main (which you can swap back to if you wish later on)

There is a *big* problem with it in that it restricts the types of story you can reasonably tell; you can no longer make the story be *about* your character - but if the story's about the world, it should just about fit together.


(What console/computer RPGs do this? Etrian Odyssey springs to mind - your 'character' is actually a guild, and you generate guild members to form the actual party that does the dungeon-delving. I think it's something that was commoner in the past)

That would work for some RPGs, not the character driven types old IE games were and PE aims to be. Respecing is bad for this game and i don't think should be considered in any form. This offseted by the fact that you should never feel like you built your character wrong for the game, so that you never feel like you need to respec, other than to play a different character (at which point you replay the game.)

 

[Zeliard]

On the other hand, though, in D&D it's quite possible to create a new character *and rejoin the established campaign*, which isn't something available in all that many CRPGs. Maybe that's the *real* solution to this: Don't permit respeccing, but *do* permit a new player character to join the campaign at an inn (or something) while resting your original main (which you can swap back to if you wish later on)

There is a *big* problem with it in that it restricts the types of story you can reasonably tell; you can no longer make the story be *about* your character - but if the story's about the world, it should just about fit together.


(What console/computer RPGs do this? Etrian Odyssey springs to mind - your 'character' is actually a guild, and you generate guild members to form the actual party that does the dungeon-delving. I think it's something that was commoner in the past)

These games tend to be invariably personalized and heavily character-driven. Outside of atmosphere and lore, the setting is important insomuch as it gives context to your decision-making, and it functions as the vessel through which you can see the impact those decisions make.

Beyond combat, your companions are largely there for you to share banter and arguments with and bounce various moral and ethical ideas around, and they also reflect the choices you've made along the way and the fashion in which you've chosen to build up your character. Ultimately it all boils down to the player character, who governs everything and whom everything centers around.

 

[EviLore]

On the other hand, though, in D&D it's quite possible to create a new character *and rejoin the established campaign*, which isn't something available in all that many CRPGs. Maybe that's the *real* solution to this: Don't permit respeccing, but *do* permit a new player character to join the campaign at an inn (or something) while resting your original main (which you can swap back to if you wish later on)

There is a *big* problem with it in that it restricts the types of story you can reasonably tell; you can no longer make the story be *about* your character - but if the story's about the world, it should just about fit together.


(What console/computer RPGs do this? Etrian Odyssey springs to mind - your 'character' is actually a guild, and you generate guild members to form the actual party that does the dungeon-delving. I think it's something that was commoner in the past)

You could remove a party member and create a new one that would join the party midway through the campaign in Icewind Dale, iirc. They'd be behind in levels, but if you were missing an essential archetype like a thief and got stuck, that could be a way to progress.

 

[Lancehead]

You could remove a party member and create a new one that would join the party midway through the campaign in Icewind Dale, iirc. They'd be behind in levels, but if you were missing an essential archetype like a thief and got stuck, that could be a way to progress.

ToEE and Storm of Zehir are also in the same vein.

 

[dude]

You could remove a party member and create a new one that would join the party midway through the campaign in Icewind Dale, iirc. They'd be behind in levels, but if you were missing an essential archetype like a thief and got stuck, that could be a way to progress.

But this game seems to be more akin to BG2 and PS:T in regards to companions, so it wouldn't really work here.

 

[AColdDay]

I very, very much disagree with you. This game is supposed to be a role playing game, not Diablo or Amalur. This not about going around killing people or having the best possibly build, this is about immersing yourself in a world and story. Metal Gear is a horrible comparison as well. The things you're describing are pretty easy of a disbelief to suspend, but who you are is an essential component of an RPG. Almost everything in an RPG is defined by who your character is. This is not some oddity you hand-wave, this is a full-on breach of immersion to the fullest extent.

Could you even imagine BG2 with respecing? If the bhaalspawn, after travelling with a group of people he interacted with, became friends with, romanced with, just changed his whole self to minimal consequences by hand waving with some bullshit?
Or in PS:T? Did the Nameless One suddenly remember a different set of skills and change his entire persona just mid game? (Though I guess it's more plausible here if they really wanted to implement it, but thankfully they didn't.)

These are not the type of games where you throw something like that in the world in the name of fun, because it ruins the biggest fun you can have from this game, immersing yourself in the setting and story and role-playing your character.



That would work for some RPGs, not the character driven types old IE games were and PE aims to be. Respecing is bad for this game and i don't think should be considered in any form. This offseted by the fact that you should never feel like you built your character wrong for the game, so that you never feel like you need to respec, other than to play a different character (at which point you replay the game.)

No one would FORCE you to respec. Why would you argue against a feature that is totally optional, will not impact the wy YOU play the game and may actually make things more user friendly to those of us who might enjoy it.

Its not like someone is proposing a brand new continent, or something that would require a ton of assets, something that would detract from the development of the main game.