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[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

I can't update the OP anymore lol. Out of character space.

Delete some updates and summarize them with the first paragraph, with "read more..." and linky link!

 

[Sentenza]

All this talk about rewards just reminded me how I loved the experience system in Bloodlines: entirely "goal based" instead of being based on killing and grinding.

 

[Almighty]

The notion of XP gain when avoiding combat refers to talking your way through encounters or finding some other way to resolve them that doesn't include smacking people around physically.

They aren't saying they'll simply substitute a set amount of XP for skipping combat, but rather for finding another way to solve those conflicts. If you are teleporting to places and missing out on some combat or other content, well, that's the give-and-take involved there.

I wonder if they are considering dropping the classic XP for each kill or other small thing(like picking a door) and going with something like what Bloodlines did. Getting XP for completing the tasks. Example say the quest is to kill the captain of a fort. You only get the XP once you complete that task. Once you kill the Captain. No matter how you did it or got to him. Instead of getting a bunch of little XP rewards for say killing his guards on the way to him or what not.

Would probably make it a lot easier to balance.

Edit.

Looks like me and TucoBenedictoPacifico had the same idea.

 

[mclem]

The notion of XP gain when avoiding combat refers to talking your way through encounters or finding some other way to resolve them that doesn't include smacking people around physically.

They aren't saying they'll simply substitute a set amount of XP for skipping combat, but rather for finding another way to solve those conflicts. If you are teleporting to places and missing out on some combat or other content, well, that's the give-and-take involved there.

In which case, then, isn't it strategically more advantageous to go for the non-combat skills that offer rewards over those that just offer timesavings?

Of course, that's operating on the assumption that time elapsing isn't a significant factor in the game, which may be incorrect!

 

[zkylon]

All this talk about rewards just remembered me how I loved the experience system in Bloodlines: entirely "goal based" instead of being based on killing and grinding.

Well, World of Darkness' character system is so much better than DnD's.

Another great update, though I'm not 100% sure on what being able to level up non-combat and combat skills (fireball and herbalism) at the same time means for specialized characters.

 

[Adnor]

I can't update the OP anymore lol. Out of character space.

You can always steal Glass Rebel's post.

I wonder if they are considering dropping the classic XP for each kill or other small thing(like picking a door) and going with something like what Bloodlines did. Getting XP for completing the tasks. Example say the quest is to kill the captain of a fort. You only get the XP once you complete that task. Once you kill the Captain. No matter how you did it or got to him. Instead of getting a bunch of little XP rewards for say killing his guards on the way to him or what not.

Really? I'll have to play Vampire then!

 

[dude]

Dammit, insects races are awesome! don't you people know about Thri-Keen?

Anyway, reading the update now

EDIT: Non-combat skills sounds perfect, exept I'm not sure about separating combat and non-co,bat skills like that. I would have liked to see some classes or character specializing in non-combat uses while having limited combat functionality. But oh well.

And the XP thing is nothing new... In most IE games you barely get any XP from kills anyway, the only way to actually level up is quests.

 

[duckroll]

Thanks for the suggestions on how to free up a ton of space in the OP.

 

[Derrick01]

I wish I could give them a few hundred thousand. This is sounding like a dream game.

 

[questionmark]

Decided to pledge 35$. Never really tried an isometric rpg like this before, but always wanted to. From what I've read about it, the game definitely sounds amazing. But even if the game doesn't end up being my cup of tea, I won't mind. Always liked contributing to projects I consider to be worthwhile.

 

[DieH@rd]

Will the game have options for my ultimate bererker melee character with 1 INT? I want to find someone similarity retarded like me, and talk to them like in Fallout 2.

 

[Zeliard]

A task-based XP system seems like it would work well in this game, yeah.

In which case, then, isn't it strategically more advantageous to go for the non-combat skills that offer rewards over those that just offer timesavings?

Of course, that's operating on the assumption that time elapsing isn't a significant factor in the game, which may be incorrect!

Well the update indicated that combat and non-combat abilities won't occupy the same XP type, so you won't be forced to pick-and-choose between those two branches.

Everyone will be able to pick certain combat abilities and certain non-combat abilities. It's then up to the individual player to choose how to progress through the game, solve various conflicts, and how to generally spend their time.

What Cain is indicating is that the player who chooses to largely forgo combat will not only be able to progress just fine, but won't be hurt in terms of building their character further throughout the course of the game (pacifist-style runs tend to be quite attractive to certain players).

I doubt we're going to see a case where either one confers some sort of significant advantage in terms of XP gain or other tangible rewards, and XP is likely to matter only up to a point. Their goal is to offer a malleable enough system that can adapt to various play styles.

Combat can be avoided with non-combat skills. There will often be ways to avoid fighting. Yes, we will have the standard methods of talking your way out of a fight or sneaking around an encounter, but there will be other ways too. Perhaps you can re-sanctify a desecrated cemetery to prevent any further undead from rising, or maybe figuring out a way across a ruined bridge will always avoid the bandits on this side of the river.

 

[Sentenza]

And the XP thing is nothing new... In most IE games you barely get any XP from kills anyway, the only way to actually level up is quests.

Well, that's not entirely true.
You still make *a lot* of exp through kills, lockpicking, disarming traps, learning spells, etc...

In Vampire: Bloodlines the difference is way more marked.
If your goal is "get rid of this guy", you get exp just getting rid of the guy, it doesn't really matter how you accomplish the goal and what you do on the way to reach him.
So, if you kill everyone and then slain him, if you sneak into his house and poison his dinner or if you use a disguise to approach him and you can talk him out of town, you still get the same exact reward and always just after completing your actual goal.

Of course, consequences may vary regardless of obtaining the same exp reward.
It's a great system.

 

[dude]

Well, that's not entirely true.
You still make *a lot* of exp through kills, lockpicking, disarming traps, learning spells, etc...

In Vampire. Bloodlines the difference is way more marked.
If your goal is "get rid of this guy", you get exp just getting rid of the guy, it doesn't really matter how you accomplish the goal and what you do on the way to reach him.
So, if you kill everyone and then slain him, if you sneak and poison his dinner or if you use a disguise to approach him and you can talk him out of town, you still get the same exact reward and always just after completing your actual goal.

It's a great system.

Yeah, while I didn't finish Bloodlines (I have a thing against first-person RPGs, don't know why), I remember really liking that system - Which was really more in line with how I play P&P games.
And yeah, but beside scrolls most of these were worth almost nothing, about 70% of you experience came solely of quests. The only real enemies who mattered in terms of XP were dragons. Bloodlines just take this to it's logical extreme... But I don't know if it fits P:E, I mean, I'm sure there would be some tough optional battles and such, I think people would want some XP for that?

 

[water_wendi]

The way the Storyteller System handles experience is one of the things i love about it.

edit: Bloodlines uses whats basically Storyteller System experience rules (minus the end of the campaign thing lol).

 

[Sentenza]

But I don't know if it fits P:E, I mean, I'm sure there would be some tough optional battles and such, I think people would want some XP for that?

Well, if the problem was just that, there's always the "fat loot" that can reward players without necessarily going to exp for kills.
Also, optional tough battles could be "quests" themselves.
Even in Bloodlines there were ways to gain more or less exp, after all, according to what you did. They just weren't linked to killing stuff.

@water_wendi: Yeah, I know, but i don't have any direct experience of playing Vampire: The Masquerade and I have no idea of what they changed from the P&P ruleset to the videogame, so I always feel way more confident talking about what "Bloodlines" did than about what "White Wolf rulesets" do.

 

[duckroll]

Yeah, while I didn't finish Bloodlines (I have a thing against first-person RPGs, don't know why), I remember really liking that system - Which was really more in line with how I play P&P games.
And yeah, but beside scrolls most of these were worth almost nothing, about 70% of you experience came solely of quests. The only real enemies who mattered in terms of XP were dragons. Bloodlines just take this to it's logical extreme... But I don't know if it fits P:E, I mean, I'm sure there would be some tough optional battles and such, I think people would want some XP for that?

I don't see why tough optional battles can't give you tons of XP under the same system. If the quest itself is to defeat a tough monster, then that's where the XP would come from. It's still task-orientated. Except the task here would be a combat task.

 

[dude]

Well, if the problem was just that, there's always the "fat loot" that can reward players without necessarily going to exp for kills.
Also, optional tough battles could be "quests" themselves.

Maybe you're right, I'm they're going to figure this out. The only thing I actually worry about is their seeming insistence on making every character useful in combat... But I'm sure I'll be able to play my super-charismatic smooth-talker fine, so all shall be good.

I don't see why tough optional battles can't give you tons of XP under the same system. If the quest itself is to defeat a tough monster, then that's where the XP would come from. It's still task-orientated. Except the task here would be a combat task.

Another good point.

 

[mclem]

I doubt we're going to see a case where either one confers some sort of significant advantage in terms of XP gain or other tangible rewards, and XP is likely to matter only up to a point. Their goal is to offer a malleable enough system that can adapt to various play styles.

My point is that I don't really see a way that the specific example given *can* be a vector for XP gain without breaching the other rules... but it *has* to be a vector for XP gain to avoid breaching that rule

And now I've typed that, it's dawned on me: If the 'teleport to a location' skill is not a skill in itself, but simply a side benefit of a skill with a more direct form of XP gain tied to it, that works.

 

[Rubius]

I backed 140$ I'm a sucker for Collector edition.

 

[Zeliard]

My point is that I don't really see a way that the specific example given *can* be a vector for XP gain without breaching the other rules... but it *has* to be a vector for XP gain to avoid breaching that rule

And now I've typed that, it's dawned on me: If the 'teleport to a location' skill is not a skill in itself, but simply a side benefit of a skill with a more direct form of XP gain tied to it, that works.

I don't think they're saying that every type of non-combat ability has to directly confer XP, but that going the general non-combat route throughout will in the long run not put you at a disadvantage when leveling up.

The benefit to fast travel comes simply in its great convenience and time-saving. It's up to the player to decide whether the possibility of missing out on random combat encounters along the way or other things is made up by the fact that you are getting to your destination much faster.

 

[dude]

If you get no XP from battles, having less encounters, teleportation and stealth all become very useful skills.

 

[mclem]

If you get no XP from battles, having less encounters, teleportation and stealth all become very useful skills.

It also runs the risk of making battles feel tedious and unrewarding, though.


I'm being nitpicky, really; I strongly suspect Obsidian have already had many discussions along these lines, I'm just curious what they'd come out with at the end of it!

 

[inm8num2]

I feel like an ass because these updates have been very well conveyed and extremely encouraging.

I wonder if they'll have some concept art or rough sketches in about a week? Pledges always bottom out during the middle of the campaign, but unveiling new art or other content makes a nice increase in backer activity.

 

[dude]

I feel like an ass because these updates have been very well conveyed and extremely encouraging.

I wonder if they'll have some concept art or rough sketches in about a week? Pledges always bottom out during the middle of the campaign, but unveiling new art or other content makes a nice increase in backer activity.

Yeah, I think new art or a screenshot will get things moving fast again. Hope they have something to show soon, I want this game to reach as high as it can!

 

[Llyranor]

Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one.
Non-combat skills do not use the same resources as combat skills. You don't spend the same stuff for a non-combat skill as you do for combat skills. Some don't use anything at all to use, so you will never find yourself unable to blast an opponent if you get caught sneaking.

I know not everyone will agree with this, but I love it. I want to be able to go through the story/quests in various different non-combat ways, depending on the situation, but I also want to be able to kick major butt in combat if need be. I don't want to have to go 'either or' (at the extreme, being too pacifism could bring me to a dead end if a situation might call for combat; or having to fight my way through *everything* because I made my build combat-heavy)

 

[DTKT]

Man, I just hope they can deliver on everything they mention. You have a lot to live up to when you mention things like non-combat options. :\

 

[mugurumakensei]

Man, I just hope they can deliver on everything they mention. You have a lot to live up to when you mention things like non-combat options. :\

Eh, it's Obsidian. Obsidian does these kind of things well. You could do a completely pacifist run in New Vegas.

 

[Zeliard]

It also runs the risk of making battles feel tedious and unrewarding, though.


I'm being nitpicky, really; I strongly suspect Obsidian have already had many discussions along these lines, I'm just curious what they'd come out with at the end of it!

Whether or not every combat encounter gives XP in particular, it'll ideally still be fun mechanically and probably result in gear, gold, and other loot.

As far as fast travel, it's basically already its own "reward," purely in terms of its function. It instantly gets you to one or more other places and ultimately to other potential sources of XP gain.

It's a facilitator with its own benefits (getting to places faster and with less hassle) and drawbacks (skipping whatever may be found along the way).

 

[Llyranor]

Also, was this posted? Avellone blog post from yesterday
http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/1/entry-168-project-eternity-and-characterization/

 

[DTKT]

They should really try to get the Paypal account up and running asap. Planetary Annihilation raised almost 300k from that alone and about 2.3 from the kickstarter.

 

[superdeluxe]

It also runs the risk of making battles feel tedious and unrewarding, though.


I'm being nitpicky, really; I strongly suspect Obsidian have already had many discussions along these lines, I'm just curious what they'd come out with at the end of it!

More loot/gold etc. I'm sure there will be benefits a plenty from combat

 

[superdeluxe]

Also, was this posted? Avellone blog post from yesterday
http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/1/entry-168-project-eternity-and-characterization/

Yeah it was, people are so wired into everything obsidian that if it's been out for a few minutes it will most likely be/posted talked about

 

[Lancehead]

All this talk about rewards just reminded me how I loved the experience system in Bloodlines: entirely "goal based" instead of being based on killing and grinding.

I also hope they go for Bloodlines/Arcanum type character sheet. That is, a single stat point pool from which to spend on various stats.

Edit: Bah, just noticed they aren't. I'm not happy about that.

EDIT: Non-combat skills sounds perfect, exept I'm not sure about separating combat and non-co,bat skills like that. I would have liked to see some classes or character specializing in non-combat uses while having limited combat functionality. But oh well.

I imagine they'll go for different set of non-combat skills for each class.

 

[WanderingWind]

Non-combat skills are back. Most anticipated game ever? Most anticipated game ever.

 

[Cute Dragon Here]

Non-combat skills are back. Most anticipated game ever? Most anticipated game ever.

I've always wondered whether that has a place in a game. I think I've yet to see a game where that is almost always feasible, let alone possible. Hope this is the first one that I've actually played that lets you do just that.

Mmm hmm, as for races... Count me in for something really exotic, like what they're thinking about. Something insect?

 

[arglebargle]

I feel like an ass because these updates have been very well conveyed and extremely encouraging.

I wonder if they'll have some concept art or rough sketches in about a week? Pledges always bottom out during the middle of the campaign, but unveiling new art or other content makes a nice increase in backer activity.

at least you have come around. you could have been obstinate and refused to bask in the awesomeness that has been this kickstarter so far. welcome to the winning team.

edit:

I've always wondered whether that has a place in a game. I think I've yet to see a game where that is almost always feasible, let alone possible. Hope this is the first one that I've actually played that lets you do just that.

Mmm hmm, as for races... Count me in for something really exotic, like what they're thinking about. Something insect?

have you played torment? i think there are like two mandatory battles in that game.

end game spoiler

Spoiler

you can beat the final "boss" by talking to him

 

[Lancehead]

I've always wondered whether that has a place in a game. I think I've yet to see a game where that is almost always feasible, let alone possible. Hope this is the first one that I've actually played that lets you do just that.

I assume you're talking about playing an RPG without any combat skills. Then I point to Fallout series.

 

[Cute Dragon Here]

Unfortunately, no, I've not played anything Obsidian.

 

[Zeliard]

have you played torment? i think there are like two mandatory battles in that game.

end game spoiler

Spoiler

you can beat the final "boss" by talking to him

Three mandatory fights, and the necessary combat is critical to the story - you're fighting those fights because you have to. And only

Spoiler

one has to die by your hands

.

 

[sankao]

I hope that they spice up non-combat progression. Crafting was extremely disappointing in Skyrim, just a grind to get that dragon bone set. One thing I liked about World of Warcraft were the blacksmith quests. For those who may not know, you couldn't grind black smithing past a certain point: at some point, you had to travel the world, meet expert craftsmen, gather rare material and produce a masterwork to progress in your craft. That was incredibly satisfying to me, and I wasn't even doing it for my own character, just helping out.
There is also the point of whether non-combat abilities should be skill based or class based. Again, in WoW, an interesting aspect was to build a party (with friends ) of not only complementary classes but complementary professions. So I hope they go for class and quest based progression all the way.

 

[Xater]

Oh man that non-combat skill update sounds fantastic. I am starting to feel bad that I can't give them more money.

 

[Lancehead]

Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one.

I don't like this. It seems too much like a fail-safe, and it can reduce build variety and flexibility.

 

[EVOL 100%]

Why does every information they release make me get a massive boner?

Help, it's two years from release and I've already never have been so hyped with a game before.

 

[Cute Dragon Here]

Why does every information they release make me get a massive boner?

Help, it's two years from release and I've already never have been so hyped with a game before.

You mean one and a half. But yeah, I want that game already, too! It's information like this that make me want to back it.

 

[Wildesy]

Very excited for this, but for some bizarre reason it has me wishing somebody would do an isometric RPG in a cyberpunk/futuristic setting instead of the usual sword and shield, dwarves and elves type setting we tend to find with these games.

 

[Mister_Bubbles]

You mean one and a half. But yeah, I want that game already, too! It's information like this that make me want to back it.

That initial April date is getting pushed back without a doubt. Remember that was their initial estimate for a 1.1 mil. game - they're going to have a lot more to implement by the time this Kickstarter's through.

 

[EVOL 100%]

Very excited for this, but for some bizarre reason it has me wishing somebody would do an isometric RPG in a cyberpunk/futuristic setting instead of the usual sword and shield, dwarves and elves type setting we tend to find with these games.

Shadowrun Returns, man!

 

[Cute Dragon Here]

That initial April date is getting pushed back without a doubt. Remember that was their initial estimate for a 1.1 mil. game - they're going to have a lot more to implement by the time this Kickstarter's through.

Hmm. That would make a lot of sense, unless it's also the reason why they would be able to work more.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Viconia was my favorite though, especially in ToB.

I should play this arc someday, but BGII/ToB is a massive timesink.